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Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #625 on: March 14, 2009, 09:26:37 AM »

I hope you will expand on what you mean by the Grace is originally given before we are even conscious of it.  Because if that is so then it means we are already saved since Grace means "favor".

While we were still His enemies, Christ died for us. If that isn't grace given before we're conscious of it, then I don't know what is.

How someone put it on another thread is: We have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved.



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As for the clarification, I'm glad you asked.

The Apostles Paul writes:

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Let's consider that together Doc.  That is not my words so if you disagree with them then please elaborate but if you agree with them then we must conclude that it Grace requires a form of Access and this scripture is telling us that Faith is that access.  That means before we personally have obtained FAVOR (Grace) that we have Faith.

I don't disagree with those words, I disagree with your understanding of them. If you will notice, the access by faith is into the grace in which they're already standing.

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James tells us this:

Jas 2:14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Now I'm sure we both agree that Grace is profit.  So can Faith without works (no profit) obtain what is profitable?  - No, according to James.

The key problem Doc is that everyone wants to quote verses in the Bible that the Apostles Paul says as which is:

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Notice in those verses the word "works".  But Paul says this also:

Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, aionios life:

That is Paul saying that those that are continuing in well doing (working) will receive "aionios life"

See the verse in Ephesians 2:9 clarifies whos works it refers to by saying "lest any MAN should boast".  The works that are done by those in Christ are His works.

Psalms shows the distinction more clearly:

Psa 28:3  Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.
Psa 28:4  Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.
Psa 28:5  Because they regard not the works of the LORD, nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up.

So Doc, the obtaining or access to Grace is FAITH + (works of Jesus Christ) THRU us.  If we do that we shall be saved.

That conclusion is a non-sequitur from the verses posted above.

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Consider the parable of the talents Doc.  All of those servants were given a pound.  Is not everyone in Christ given a pound?  And what happens to one that did no works to increase his pound?

Luk 19:12  He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luk 19:13  And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
Luk 19:14  But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Luk 19:15  And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Luk 19:16  Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
Luk 19:17  And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luk 19:18  And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
Luk 19:19  And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
Luk 19:20  And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
Luk 19:21  For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
Luk 19:22  And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
Luk 19:23  Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
Luk 19:24  And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
Luk 19:25  (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
Luk 19:26  For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
Luk 19:27  But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

So see Doc, we have to DO Works.  Jesus is going to inspect the fruit of the branches.  Now know this - at no time did I mention that we are to do OUR works or the works of the letter of the law.  I am saying that the works we MUST do are those of the Christ.  It is Him working in us.

Paul

As to the James passage, I think if we look at that verse in a bit more context, we'll see what James was talking about there:

Jam 2:8  If you truly fulfill the royal Law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. Lev. 19:18
Jam 2:9  But if you have partiality you work sin, being reproved by the Law as transgressors.
Jam 2:10  For whoever shall keep all the Law, but stumbles in one, he has become guilty of all.
Jam 2:11  For He who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." Ex. 20:14, 13; Deut. 5:18, 17 But if you do not commit adultery, but commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the Law.
Jam 2:12  So speak and so do as being about to be judged through a Law of freedom.
Jam 2:13  For judgment will be without mercy to the one not doing mercy. And mercy rejoices over judgment.
Jam 2:14  My brothers, what is the gain if anyone says he has faith, but he does not have works? Is the faith able to save him?
Jam 2:15  But if a brother or a sister is naked and may be lacking in daily food,
Jam 2:16  and any one of you say to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but does not give them the things the body needs, what gain is it?
Jam 2:17  So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.

I see that we are judged by our works (justified or condemned), and that we are given according to our works (reward and punishment), but I don't see the conclusion from these passages that we are saved by them. The works of God are merely an outflow from real faith (that has been given to us) resulting from grace (that has been given to us). He's saying that faith without works doesn't do anyone any good.

I know you didn't mention that we are to do our works, or the works of the letter of the law. Yet you are still implying that works save us, which is trying to keep law. You appear to be saying that faith + works = access to grace leading to salvation.

If one has been given real faith, then He who has given that to you is also doing those works through you.
It's the same thing with the sermon on the mount. Jesus wasn't laying down a bunch of new rules, he was saying that if you're living the God kind of life (in other words, if God is living out His life through us), this is what it will look like.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
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God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

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trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #626 on: March 14, 2009, 05:02:53 PM »
... We have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved.

That doesn't make sense to me. If we have been saved then why would James say this:

Jas 2:14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Why would James be concerned about someone being saved by Faith if everyone is already saved?


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...I know you didn't mention that we are to do our works, or the works of the letter of the law. Yet you are still implying that works save us, which is trying to keep law. You appear to be saying that faith + works = access to grace leading to salvation.

Yes, I'm implying it because the scriptures are SCREAMING it to me.  But not the letter of the law that was done away with but what still remains of the Law - the Spirit.

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If one has been given real faith, then He who has given that to you is also doing those works through you.
It's the same thing with the sermon on the mount. Jesus wasn't laying down a bunch of new rules, he was saying that if you're living the God kind of life (in other words, if God is living out His life through us), this is what it will look like.

I agree with that part of what you said.  But you must realize that the LAW still exists:

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

To me that verse there is telling me that Faith plus His Works = Grace = salvation.

Paul

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #627 on: March 14, 2009, 05:58:30 PM »
One thing I'd like to point out.

  • Romans 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Notice it says "THIS grace WHEREIN WE STAND" is accessed by faith (which includes works).  Does "THIS grace WHEREIN WE STAND" mean the same thing as "ANY grace" at all?  If that were the case then faith + works would precede all grace from God.  But if faith + works precedes ANY AND ALL grace from God, how then is faith a gift?  How then are we His workmanship created unto good works?

What if the grace wherein Paul stood was a bit further along than the grace that an ungodly, spiritually uncircumcized heart might receive.

Let me ask you this Paul.  According to how you are reading this, wouldn't it imply that a person whose heart is yet uncircumcized as NO ACCESS to ANY grace from God?

Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #628 on: March 14, 2009, 06:06:17 PM »
One thing I'd like to point out.

  • Romans 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Notice it says "THIS grace WHEREIN WE STAND" is accessed by faith (which includes works).  Does "THIS grace WHEREIN WE STAND" mean the same thing as "ANY grace" at all?  If that were the case then faith + works would precede all grace from God.  But if faith + works precedes ANY AND ALL grace from God, how then is faith a gift?  How then are we His workmanship created unto good works?

What if the grace wherein Paul stood was a bit further along than the grace that an ungodly, spiritually uncircumcized heart might receive.

Let me ask you this Paul.  According to how you are reading this, wouldn't it imply that a person whose heart is yet uncircumcized as NO ACCESS to ANY grace from God?

grace chastens us, and teaches us to live godly lives.  bastards are without discipline.  who are bastards??  unbelievers?

how can a non believer access grace if they are not currently being chastened to live godly lives?

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #629 on: March 14, 2009, 06:30:53 PM »
grace chastens us, and teaches us to live godly lives.  bastards are without discipline.  who are bastards??  unbelievers?  how can a non believer access grace if they are not currently being chastened to live godly lives?

Yes, the grace of God has appeared to ALL men.  It is my belief that God's grace precedes everything.   Faith + Works is godliness.   If that precedes everything then how could God "justifieth the ungodly".  However, I believe Paul is right that faith (which includes works) is required to reach the end of grace.

Offline claypot

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Re: Works
« Reply #630 on: March 14, 2009, 06:37:35 PM »
... We have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved.

That doesn't make sense to me. If we have been saved then why would James say this:

Jas 2:14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Why would James be concerned about someone being saved by Faith if everyone is already saved?

tret,

I'm sure it would make sense to you if you only focused on the other part of that truth.......You focused on only one part of that truth, 'you are saved'. The other part is 'you are being saved'.

This is why James is concerned about others being saved.

You say this 3 part truth does not make sense to you. God does??!!

God is the God of all the past, present and future. Like a diamond we need, not 20/20 vision, but 20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20......... vision. We need to see God and His message to us from a myriad of points or we lose out on so much!

cp


For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #631 on: March 14, 2009, 07:48:39 PM »
grace chastens us, and teaches us to live godly lives.  bastards are without discipline.  who are bastards??  unbelievers?  how can a non believer access grace if they are not currently being chastened to live godly lives?

Yes, the grace of God has appeared to ALL men.  It is my belief that God's grace precedes everything.   Faith + Works is godliness.   If that precedes everything then how could God "justifieth the ungodly".  However, I believe Paul is right that faith (which includes works) is required to reach the end of grace.


"appeared" talks of illuminate, which is in my opinion the same as in I John of the light that lighteth every man, but the men rejected it, comprehended it not. 

grace is for all, but the darkness is not able to turn toward it in faith, until the appointed time, which for some is through destruction. 


trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #632 on: March 14, 2009, 08:22:58 PM »
One thing I'd like to point out.

  • Romans 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Notice it says "THIS grace WHEREIN WE STAND" is accessed by faith (which includes works).  Does "THIS grace WHEREIN WE STAND" mean the same thing as "ANY grace" at all?  If that were the case then faith + works would precede all grace from God.  But if faith + works precedes ANY AND ALL grace from God, how then is faith a gift?  How then are we His workmanship created unto good works?

What if the grace wherein Paul stood was a bit further along than the grace that an ungodly, spiritually uncircumcized heart might receive.

Let me ask you this Paul.  According to how you are reading this, wouldn't it imply that a person whose heart is yet uncircumcized as NO ACCESS to ANY grace from God?


Bob, my answer is Yes, that the uncircumcized has no access to Grace.  Paul says this:

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Obviously, each would have grown into Grace at different levels, this reference to "Wherein we stand" cannot be pertaining to a level of Grace achieved but must simply refer to Grace itself. 

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #633 on: March 14, 2009, 08:28:23 PM »
Yes, the grace of God has appeared to ALL men.  It is my belief that God's grace precedes everything.   Faith + Works is godliness.   If that precedes everything then how could God "justifieth the ungodly".  However, I believe Paul is right that faith (which includes works) is required to reach the end of grace.


Tit 2:11  For that grace of God, that bringeth saluation vnto all men, hath appeared,

That verse is from the Geneva version which I believe conveys the proper meaning better.

Paul


bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #634 on: March 14, 2009, 08:38:33 PM »
Bob, my answer is Yes, that the uncircumcized has no access to Grace.

If the uncircumcised of heart have no access to grace, how can their hearts ever become circumcised?

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #635 on: March 14, 2009, 08:43:40 PM »
tret,

I'm sure it would make sense to you if you only focused on the other part of that truth.......You focused on only one part of that truth, 'you are saved'. The other part is 'you are being saved'.

This is why James is concerned about others being saved.

You say this 3 part truth does not make sense to you. God does??!!

God is the God of all the past, present and future. Like a diamond we need, not 20/20 vision, but 20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20......... vision. We need to see God and His message to us from a myriad of points or we lose out on so much!

cp


Claypot, I believe that the moment that I have ACCESSED Grace that I'm saved.   I believe that we go from being unsaved to saved.  See the moment we have accessed Grace is when all of our past sins have been forgiven.  I do NOT believe that this means all future sins will be forgiven.  I don't believe that anyone is saved BEFORE they access Grace.

Your correct, I didn't focus on the other part of James message that we are also BEING SAVED.  Regarding the 3 part thing was the comment that we are "saved, being saved, and shall be saved".  I don't believe that at all.  It would mean that I was never unsaved.  I agree with that statement if it is applied to once we access Grace.  But it seemed to be presented as an argument to support that we are saved before we access Grace and in that situation I don't agree because I believe we are still unsaved before we have accessed Grace.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #636 on: March 14, 2009, 08:51:35 PM »
Bob, my answer is Yes, that the uncircumcized has no access to Grace.

If the uncircumcised of heart have no access to grace, how can their hearts ever become circumcised?


Grace means Favor.  The uncircumcised are not in God's Favor thus not in His Grace.  For the uncircumcised to ACCESS the Grace they must be given Faith.

Paul

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #637 on: March 14, 2009, 09:45:43 PM »
Grace means Favor.  The uncircumcised are not in God's Favor thus not in His Grace.  For the uncircumcised to ACCESS the Grace they must be given Faith.

I would call the giving of faith to someone who has no faith an act of grace.  It is both favorable and unmerited.

This is how I see it:
1. pre conversion (no faith)
2. conversion (a favorable unmerited act of God that is not accessed by faith)
3. post conversion - faith present
4. being justified = "this grace wherein we stand" which is accessed by faith including works

For example, Peter, prior to being converted, did not yet stand in the grace that Paul was referring to.  He was not yet justirfied.  He was fearful and ready to deny Christ.  But God was still acting favorably on Peter prior to his conversion.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #638 on: March 14, 2009, 10:02:54 PM »
I would call the giving of faith to someone who has no faith an act of grace.  It is both favorable and unmerited.

This is how I see it:
1. pre conversion (no faith)
2. conversion (a favorable unmerited act of God that is not accessed by faith)
3. post conversion - faith present
4. being justified = "this grace wherein we stand" which is accessed by faith including works

For example, Peter, prior to being converted, did not yet stand in the grace that Paul was referring to.  He was not yet justirfied.  He was fearful and ready to deny Christ.  But God was still acting favorably on Peter prior to his conversion.


I see where the problem might be.  Ok, lets instead of calling Grace - FAVOR instead call it APPROVAL.  Maybe that will clear it up.  They essentially are the same thing but implications are different.  Now if you consider Grace as APPROVAL then you can see that giving someone Faith is not an act of approval.  APPROVAL would be a better definition. 

Paul


bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #639 on: March 14, 2009, 10:42:23 PM »
I see where the problem might be.  Ok, lets instead of calling Grace - FAVOR instead call it APPROVAL.  Maybe that will clear it up.  They essentially are the same thing but implications are different.  Now if you consider Grace as APPROVAL then you can see that giving someone Faith is not an act of approval.  APPROVAL would be a better definition. 

Paul

I think I agree with that.  Sometimes people believe the same thing but don't agree on the words to describe those beliefs.



trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #640 on: March 14, 2009, 11:47:03 PM »
I think I agree with that.  Sometimes people believe the same thing but don't agree on the words to describe those beliefs.

Well this discussion helped because I didn't think of Favor being used in the manner you explained so this helps to explain it in the future and might explain why others are confused by that.

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #641 on: March 15, 2009, 03:01:23 PM »
May I butt into this tiring debate?

The apostle Paul is a perfect of God's departure from indignation:

While Paul was uncircumcised of heart, on the road to Damascus to kill Christians and took part in Stephen's murder the grace of the Lord overwhelmed him:

1Ti 1:14-16  Yet the grace of our Lord overwhelms, with faith and love in Christ Jesus."  (15)  Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I."  (16)  But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, for a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian."

Paul obviously was set for eonian life:

Acts 13:48 "Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."

Acts 13:48 does not say that to get life eonian they had to first believe. Rather it states that those who were set for that life believed. First the setting then the believing. So Paul must have been set for that life while he was on his murderous path.

We of the nations are: "Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:24). That word "gratuitously" means that we didn't do or pay anything for the justification. It is all due to the deliverance in Christ Jesus.

Paul uses Abraham as an excellent example for us of the nations:

"For if Abraham was justified by acts, he has something to boast in, but not toward God" (Rom 4:2).

If we are justified by works or acts then grace is no longer grace.

Rom 11:6 Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace. Now, if it is out of works, it is no longer grace, else the work is no longer work."

Rom 3:28 Of works? No! But through faith's law. For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #642 on: March 15, 2009, 06:09:35 PM »

Acts 13:48 does not say that to get life eonian they had to first believe. Rather it states that those who were set for that life believed. First the setting then the believing. So Paul must have been set for that life while he was on his murderous path.


I'm not disagreeing at all with that Tony but think it is just a matter of perspective for both views are true are they not that to those that are to receive aionion life they will believe and also those that believe will receive aionion life.

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We of the nations are: "Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:24). That word "gratuitously" means that we didn't do or pay anything for the justification. It is all due to the deliverance in Christ Jesus.

I don't know of anyone so far in this thread that has preached that we can be saved by our own works.

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Paul uses Abraham as an excellent example for us of the nations:

"For if Abraham was justified by acts, he has something to boast in, but not toward God" (Rom 4:2).

If we are justified by works or acts then grace is no longer grace.

Rom 11:6 Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace. Now, if it is out of works, it is no longer grace, else the work is no longer work."

Rom 3:28 Of works? No! But through faith's law. For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law.


But those works are talking about our works.  Not Christ's works thru us.  Let's consider this from James:

Jas 2:21  Was not Abraham our father iustified through workes, when he offred Isaac his sonne vpon the altar?
Jas 2:22  Seest thou not that the faith wrought with his workes? and through the workes was the faith made perfect.
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which sayeth, Abraham beleeued God, and it was imputed vnto him for righteousnesse: and hee was called the friende of God.
Jas 2:24  Ye see then howe that of workes a man is iustified, and not of faith onely.

Notice it says AND the scripture was fulfilled which says that Abraham believed God.  This is defining what it means to "believe".  It is showing us that Faith and works (not our own) are BELIEVING. 

So Tony, I don't know what your position is.  Do you still believe that is it not a requirement to have Faith and Works to be saved?

Paul

Offline CHB

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Re: Works
« Reply #643 on: March 15, 2009, 08:48:01 PM »

But those works are talking about our works.  Not Christ's works thru us.  Let's consider this from James:

Jas 2:21  Was not Abraham our father iustified through workes, when he offred Isaac his sonne vpon the altar?
Jas 2:22  Seest thou not that the faith wrought with his workes? and through the workes was the faith made perfect.
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which sayeth, Abraham beleeued God, and it was imputed vnto him for righteousnesse: and hee was called the friende of God.
Jas 2:24  Ye see then howe that of workes a man is iustified, and not of faith onely.

Notice it says AND the scripture was fulfilled which says that Abraham believed God.  This is defining what it means to "believe".  It is showing us that Faith and works (not our own) are BELIEVING. 

So Tony, I don't know what your position is.  Do you still believe that is it not a requirement to have Faith and Works to be saved?

Paul


I would like to point out something if I may? 

The book of James was written to the twelve tribes of Israel which were law keepers. After Christ was crucified the apostles taught the New Covenant which had do's and don'ts attached to it. I don't think the New Covenant is for Gentiles, that is why Paul came to see something that had been hidden from the world, that the Gentiles would be saved without laws which was the Mystery he spoke of. 

Our faith and our works are those of Christ, not ours. If we claim works of our own we will be judged by them. If we know that the works we do and the faith we have is all Christ works and faith. God will look at us and judge us by what Christ did not what we do. Remember we are sitting in Christ on the right hand of the father now.

If you notice. In the beginning all of the apostles taught works, even paul at first but Paul came to see that if we died and was buried and resurrected with Christ, then we have no works except those of Christ.  Hope I made sense.

CHB


trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #644 on: March 15, 2009, 08:59:44 PM »

I would like to point out something if I may? 

The book of James was written to the twelve tribes of Israel which were law keepers. After Christ was crucified the apostles taught the New Covenant which had do's and don'ts attached to it. I don't think the New Covenant is for Gentiles, that is why Paul came to see something that had been hidden from the world, that the Gentiles would be saved without laws which was the Mystery he spoke of. 

The New Covenant is for Jew and Gentile.  Peter had already known the Gentiles would be saved.

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Our faith and our works are those of Christ, not ours. If we claim works of our own we will be judged by them. If we know that the works we do and the faith we have is all Christ works and faith. God will look at us and judge us by what Christ did not what we do. Remember we are sitting in Christ on the right hand of the father now.

If you notice. In the beginning all of the apostles taught works, even paul at first but Paul came to see that if we died and was buried and resurrected with Christ, then we have no works except those of Christ.  Hope I made sense.

CHB


No, I don't see where any of the Apostles taught works to be saved other than His (Jesus Christ) works.  They all taught that we are saved by Christ working through us.  That is His works - not our works. 

Paul

Offline CHB

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Re: Works
« Reply #645 on: March 15, 2009, 10:13:50 PM »

The New Covenant is for Jew and Gentile.  Peter had already known the Gentiles would be saved.

The Covenants were ONLY for Israel.  (Rom. 9:4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, AND THE COVENANTS, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.

(Jer. 31:31) Behold the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.




Quote from: trettep
No, I don't see where any of the Apostles taught works to be saved other than His (Jesus Christ) works.  They all taught that we are saved by Christ working through us.  That is His works - not our works. 

Paul

They taught you had to be baptized, repent, do good works, have faith, etc.

CHB

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #646 on: March 15, 2009, 10:41:00 PM »

Acts 13:48 does not say that to get life eonian they had to first believe. Rather it states that those who were set for that life believed. First the setting then the believing. So Paul must have been set for that life while he was on his murderous path.


I'm not disagreeing at all with that Tony but think it is just a matter of perspective for both views are true are they not that to those that are to receive aionion life they will believe and also those that believe will receive aionion life.

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We of the nations are: "Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:24). That word "gratuitously" means that we didn't do or pay anything for the justification. It is all due to the deliverance in Christ Jesus.

I don't know of anyone so far in this thread that has preached that we can be saved by our own works.

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Paul uses Abraham as an excellent example for us of the nations:

"For if Abraham was justified by acts, he has something to boast in, but not toward God" (Rom 4:2).

If we are justified by works or acts then grace is no longer grace.

Rom 11:6 Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace. Now, if it is out of works, it is no longer grace, else the work is no longer work."

Rom 3:28 Of works? No! But through faith's law. For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law.


But those works are talking about our works.  Not Christ's works thru us.  Let's consider this from James:

Jas 2:21  Was not Abraham our father iustified through workes, when he offred Isaac his sonne vpon the altar?
Jas 2:22  Seest thou not that the faith wrought with his workes? and through the workes was the faith made perfect.
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which sayeth, Abraham beleeued God, and it was imputed vnto him for righteousnesse: and hee was called the friende of God.
Jas 2:24  Ye see then howe that of workes a man is iustified, and not of faith onely.

Notice it says AND the scripture was fulfilled which says that Abraham believed God.  This is defining what it means to "believe".  It is showing us that Faith and works (not our own) are BELIEVING. 

So Tony, I don't know what your position is.  Do you still believe that is it not a requirement to have Faith and Works to be saved?

Paul

James was addressing the 12 tribes of Israel (not the nations) using Abraham's works to prove his point that a man is not justified by faith alone.

The apostle Paul would never agree with James on this point because Paul was addressing the nations who are not to mix works with grace to be justified. We are justified by faith (period).

You asked: " Do you still believe that is it not a requirement to have Faith and Works to be saved?"

I do not believe the nations are under any requirements to be saved. We of the nations are not to mix faith with works to be saved. It is as simple as that.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #647 on: March 15, 2009, 10:43:32 PM »
They taught you had to be baptized, repent, do good works, have faith, etc.

CHB

We still have to be baptized, repent, and do good works, and have Faith.  All physical Jews or Gentiles are Israelites in Christ.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #648 on: March 15, 2009, 10:45:56 PM »
James was addressing the 12 tribes of Israel (not the nations) using Abraham's works to prove his point that a man is not justified by faith alone.

The apostle Paul would never agree with James on this point because Paul was addressing the nations who are not to mix works with grace to be justified. We are justified by faith (period).

You asked: " Do you still believe that is it not a requirement to have Faith and Works to be saved?"

I do not believe the nations are under any requirements to be saved. We of the nations are not to mix faith with works to be saved. It is as simple as that.

James words are for all Israelites in Christ which is can be a physical Jew or Gentile.  Paul does agree with James.  Yes, we are to not mix our works with Faith to be saved.  However, we are required to perform His Works by our Faith to be saved.

Rom 2:6  who shall render to each according to his works;
Rom 2:7  to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility--life age-during; 

Paul
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 10:48:06 PM by trettep »

Offline CHB

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Re: Works
« Reply #649 on: March 16, 2009, 12:27:17 AM »
Quote from: trettep

However, we are required to perform His Works by our Faith to be saved.

Our faith?  I live by the faith of Jesus Christ, not my faith. My faith ain't worth diddley.

What is "His works" that you speak of?

CHB