Author Topic: Works  (Read 118811 times)

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Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #600 on: March 12, 2009, 03:12:25 PM »


I think people are missing the point that the scriptures are making.

It's being said that grace is not for the unbeliever?  Really?

Can an unbeliever be drawn to believe without grace?  No.  It is Grace that will prevent the unbeliever from being in a state of unbelief for eternity.   So Grace is for the unbeliever whether you like it or not.



I've been thinking about your comment Paul, and found this verse which helps support your statements above


Zec 12:9  And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


I believe these scriptures refer to the return of Christ in judgment, and non believers who were hardened or turned away, will THEN have the spirit of grace poured upon them, and as i think it was you or maybe jabcat that earlier posted "every knee will bow" verses, it does appear this is through grace too. 

blessings. 

z

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #601 on: March 12, 2009, 03:39:39 PM »
How does this happen that Grace can be turned into a license to sin?:

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #602 on: March 12, 2009, 04:45:39 PM »
How does this happen that Grace can be turned into a license to sin?:

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul

16 They are avowing an acquaintance with God, yet by their acts are denying it, being abominable and stubborn, and disqualified for every good act.
2

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #603 on: March 12, 2009, 05:55:11 PM »
16 They are avowing an acquaintance with God, yet by their acts are denying it, being abominable and stubborn, and disqualified for every good act.


I like the way you put that "acquaintance with God".  Chuckt, do you believe that Faith with Good Works is a REQUIREMENT to salvation.  If so, then I would like to hear from those that don't believe such explain that verse.

Paul

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #604 on: March 12, 2009, 05:57:49 PM »
16 They are avowing an acquaintance with God, yet by their acts are denying it, being abominable and stubborn, and disqualified for every good act.


I like the way you put that "acquaintance with God".  Chuckt, do you believe that Faith with Good Works is a REQUIREMENT to salvation.  If so, then I would like to hear from those that don't believe such explain that verse.

Paul


greetings paul.

faith seems to make me wanna do good works, i am compelled to seek to bless others and take on the servant attitude.

this has grown in me over the yrs it didnt come all at once, praise God he works in me and HE gets all glory.

i even see mercy as a ""work""

prune me LORD.  :boydance:

inlove
chuckt
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Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #605 on: March 12, 2009, 07:08:49 PM »
  Hi Paul

   these you are speaking of..are the twice dead ones..they were really never resurrected or 'born again' in the first place.

   they do not come to life until the 1000 yr reign is over...they make up Gog's crowd which fight against the camp of the city
God loves...they are godless men or have a spirit other than the Holy Ghost in them. Think Jim Jones,David Keresh, the recent Mormon sexual,multiple wives and young girls given to the old men in marriage.  Think Jimmy Swaggert and all sorts of spiritual giants caught up in immorality that have been revealed.

  Jude speaks of sin of sodom and gommorrah/homosexuality pollute their bodies,eyes full of adultery Greedy- think big money
ministries..Balaam's way loving the wages of wickedness..
  prophecying curses to Israelites delivered..then through trickery leading them into sexual immorality and idolatry with
  the world. These ministrys mouth empty boastful words and appeal to lustful desire of sinful human nature.

   yes they are 'twice dead" or twice the candidate for hell..the
  proselytes that have been made through these ministries.

  yes they will have their time in the LOF judgement...but they,too, will be restored as we know.

   The ministry I have been given of the Holy spirit is not like

 that, and truly these people do not know of what spirit they

are of...they are misled of these false Christs and false prophets

  that are none other than spirits and doctrines of demons

 that have twisted the Goodnews of the gospel.

  Let the dead bury the dead..and God has appointed the beast to turn on the prostitute and expose her nakedness...however,
 it is not the mind of the beast to be in me..but the mind of Christ...and I know God very well knows how to judge and straighten out everything.

  But what He has given me is not a ministry of condemnation
  nor a judgement unto His wrath..but He has given me the peaceful assurance that all will be gathered into the Holy city
 All that has been scattered into the 4 corners of earth and heaven will come into one...

   It is NOT for me,Tretp to call down fire of judgement from
  Heaven in this matter...it is of the Father to handle this.

  and I do KNOW that mercy will come with His judgement/correction and all will be restored.

   Yes..this was prophesied about...and it is quickly coming...
  Babylon can do nothing but fall

   I guess you can see the reaping and sowing aspect of this
  and the building with wood and perishable things..and the
  building of your house on sand..and the collapse of it..

   and the suffering of loss that has occurred and is occurring

   but some are saved through fire...and His undeserved kindness and grace will be shown unto them...though He has
long endured vessels of wrath fitted for destruction...He
will show forth the riches of His glory  and mercy to vessels of mercy,prepared before hand...and the Kingdom of Heaven has been prepared beforehand for mankinds inheritance...

  and all have born the image of the corruptible and all shall bear the image of the incorruptible

DaughterofDavid

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Re: Works
« Reply #606 on: March 12, 2009, 07:37:24 PM »
Sheila,

Loved what you shared..... :thumbsup:

As I was reading what you wrote....the anointing is so strong on that post that I could see the sun-beams of New Jerusalem and feel the atmosphere....whew.....

Yahshua be praised! :dsunny:

Love you sis! :HeartThrob:
Be blessed mightily today....
DoD

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #607 on: March 12, 2009, 08:07:13 PM »
   Amen! DOD

    the mind of the beast may expose the shame of

 nakedness..but we are to clothe the naked in Grace

  with a garment of mercy.

     Romans 4;18  Against all hope, Abraham in hope beleived

   and so became the father of many nations,just as it had been

 said of him, "So shall your offspring be'...

   WITHOUT WEAKENING IN HIS FAITH..HE FACED THE FACT

   THAT HIS BODY WAS AS GOOD AS DEAD-.....

  v 20  YET, HE DID NOT WAVER THROUGH UNBELEIF

 REGARDING THE PROMISE OF GOD, BUT WAS STRENGTHENED

IN HIS FAITH AND GAVE GLORY TO GOD, BEING FULLY

PERSUADED THAT GOD HAD POWER TO DO WHAT HE PROMISED

THIS IS WHY IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS


  and I think of Christ's offspring..even the salvation of all

 mankind...and our hope and faith in God in His power to do this

 though it is of faith..though the body look as good as dead

 at present


   v 23 the Words..'IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM were written

  not for him alone, BUT ALSO FOR US,TO WHOM GOD WILL

 CREDIT RIGHTEOUSNESS- FOR US WHO BELEIVE IN HIM

WHO RAISED JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD

   HE was delivered over to death for our sins

  AND WAS RAISED TO LIFE FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #608 on: March 12, 2009, 08:19:25 PM »


  Romans 5;6

   You see, at JUST THE RIGHT TIME...when we were still

 powerless, CHRIST DIED FOR THE UNGODLY...

   v 8  But God demonstrates His own love for us in this,

  while we were still sinners Christ died for us.

   Since we have now been justified by his blood,

  how much more will we be saved from God's wrath through

 him!

DaughterofDavid

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Re: Works
« Reply #609 on: March 12, 2009, 10:30:02 PM »
Once again loved what you shared Sheila... :thumbsup:

I have come to learn that the Lord will beckon us to come in and shut the door so that when we are 'undressed' it is done very privately and intimately....

All too often though many will not heed the call to come in and shut themselves in with the Lord...and in so doing this is when their nakedness is not only revealed to themselves but to so many others too...

Yes, we are then called to be the 'chamberlains' to help come along and 'cover' with Grace and Mercy all those that are found exposed....

I have found that as I have been obedient in coming away with my beloved and shutting myself in with Him that it has also been a witness to others to heed the call too when the Lord beckons them....

Blessings to you sis,
DoD

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #610 on: March 12, 2009, 11:06:43 PM »


  DOD,

   I agree 100% with your post. Words of spirit and truth

  and spoken with the wisdom that is from above.

                                Blessings right back to you!

                                         your sis,Sheila


                             

                               

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #611 on: March 12, 2009, 11:36:09 PM »
I also believe we are to live by every word of God, not just the ones that are selected in isolation to support a "doctrine". That was the point I was trying to make. Although the scripture records the truth, not all truth is found only "in" scripture, and that fact does not take anything away from the scripture. It takes the Spirit to show us what is between the lines, though. There are no scriptures that truly conflict true "doctrine", they only conflict in our understanding. Once the Spirit guides us into understanding, there are no conflicts. The Word is the only place all truth is found. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not doctrines, not written words on a page.

Doc, I don't believe any single verse can contradict the rest of God's Word.  So having said (and I believe you would agree), do you not agree also that Faith without works cannot ACCESS the Grace NEEDED to save us?

Paul


No; I would not agree with that, because I firmly believe that is a misinterpretation of what those scriptures are saying.

Grace comes through faith, not after it. The works of the Spirit follow both grace and faith, both of which are gifts to us.

If there are a few scriptures that seem to contradict the rest of the witness of scripture, then there must be something wrong with the understanding of the scriptures that appear to contradict. As you said, there are no contradictions.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 11:41:14 PM by Doc »
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #612 on: March 12, 2009, 11:44:54 PM »
I also believe we are to live by every word of God, not just the ones that are selected in isolation to support a "doctrine". That was the point I was trying to make. Although the scripture records the truth, not all truth is found only "in" scripture, and that fact does not take anything away from the scripture. It takes the Spirit to show us what is between the lines, though. There are no scriptures that truly conflict true "doctrine", they only conflict in our understanding. Once the Spirit guides us into understanding, there are no conflicts. The Word is the only place all truth is found. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not doctrines, not written words on a page.

Doc, I don't believe any single verse can contradict the rest of God's Word.  So having said (and I believe you would agree), do you not agree also that Faith without works cannot ACCESS the Grace NEEDED to save us?

Paul


No; I would not agree with that, because I firmly believe that is a misinterpretation of what those scriptures are saying.

Grace comes through faith, not after it. The works of the Spirit follow both grace and faith, both of which are gifts to us.

If there are a few scriptures that seem to contradict the rest of the witness of scripture, then there must be something wrong with the understanding of the scriptures that appear to contradict. As you said, there are no contradictions.

We move from grace to grace and it is our faith that moves us, but grace has been there from the start.

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #613 on: March 12, 2009, 11:52:52 PM »
I also believe we are to live by every word of God, not just the ones that are selected in isolation to support a "doctrine". That was the point I was trying to make. Although the scripture records the truth, not all truth is found only "in" scripture, and that fact does not take anything away from the scripture. It takes the Spirit to show us what is between the lines, though. There are no scriptures that truly conflict true "doctrine", they only conflict in our understanding. Once the Spirit guides us into understanding, there are no conflicts. The Word is the only place all truth is found. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not doctrines, not written words on a page.



Doc, I don't believe any single verse can contradict the rest of God's Word.  So having said (and I believe you would agree), do you not agree also that Faith without works cannot ACCESS the Grace NEEDED to save us?

Paul


No; I would not agree with that, because I firmly believe that is a misinterpretation of what those scriptures are saying.

Grace comes through faith, not after it. The works of the Spirit follow both grace and faith, both of which are gifts to us.

If there are a few scriptures that seem to contradict the rest of the witness of scripture, then there must be something wrong with the understanding of the scriptures that appear to contradict. As you said, there are no contradictions.

We move from grace to grace and it is our faith that moves us, but grace has been there from the start.


Ah, so grace is both an "origin and destination point" with faith as the vehicle moving us between the two...interesting.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #614 on: March 12, 2009, 11:56:40 PM »
I also believe we are to live by every word of God, not just the ones that are selected in isolation to support a "doctrine". That was the point I was trying to make. Although the scripture records the truth, not all truth is found only "in" scripture, and that fact does not take anything away from the scripture. It takes the Spirit to show us what is between the lines, though. There are no scriptures that truly conflict true "doctrine", they only conflict in our understanding. Once the Spirit guides us into understanding, there are no conflicts. The Word is the only place all truth is found. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not doctrines, not written words on a page.



Doc, I don't believe any single verse can contradict the rest of God's Word.  So having said (and I believe you would agree), do you not agree also that Faith without works cannot ACCESS the Grace NEEDED to save us?

Paul


No; I would not agree with that, because I firmly believe that is a misinterpretation of what those scriptures are saying.

Grace comes through faith, not after it. The works of the Spirit follow both grace and faith, both of which are gifts to us.

If there are a few scriptures that seem to contradict the rest of the witness of scripture, then there must be something wrong with the understanding of the scriptures that appear to contradict. As you said, there are no contradictions.

We move from grace to grace and it is our faith that moves us, but grace has been there from the start.


Ah, so grace is both an "origin and destination point" with faith as the vehicle moving us between the two...interesting.


Hi Doc, if you place that understanding between what Paul and others have been sharing it does away with what seems to conflict in the scriptures.

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #615 on: March 13, 2009, 12:01:30 AM »
I also believe we are to live by every word of God, not just the ones that are selected in isolation to support a "doctrine". That was the point I was trying to make. Although the scripture records the truth, not all truth is found only "in" scripture, and that fact does not take anything away from the scripture. It takes the Spirit to show us what is between the lines, though. There are no scriptures that truly conflict true "doctrine", they only conflict in our understanding. Once the Spirit guides us into understanding, there are no conflicts. The Word is the only place all truth is found. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not doctrines, not written words on a page.



Doc, I don't believe any single verse can contradict the rest of God's Word.  So having said (and I believe you would agree), do you not agree also that Faith without works cannot ACCESS the Grace NEEDED to save us?

Paul


No; I would not agree with that, because I firmly believe that is a misinterpretation of what those scriptures are saying.

Grace comes through faith, not after it. The works of the Spirit follow both grace and faith, both of which are gifts to us.

If there are a few scriptures that seem to contradict the rest of the witness of scripture, then there must be something wrong with the understanding of the scriptures that appear to contradict. As you said, there are no contradictions.

We move from grace to grace and it is our faith that moves us, but grace has been there from the start.


Ah, so grace is both an "origin and destination point" with faith as the vehicle moving us between the two...interesting.


Hi Doc, if you place that understanding between what Paul and others have been sharing it does away with what seems to conflict in the scriptures.

Good eye, pneuma. That's what I've sort of been trying to get at all along. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #616 on: March 13, 2009, 12:56:33 AM »
No; I would not agree with that, because I firmly believe that is a misinterpretation of what those scriptures are saying.

Grace comes through faith, not after it. The works of the Spirit follow both grace and faith, both of which are gifts to us.

If there are a few scriptures that seem to contradict the rest of the witness of scripture, then there must be something wrong with the understanding of the scriptures that appear to contradict. As you said, there are no contradictions.

Please be more specific Doc.  How is Faith as access to Grace a misinterpretation.  Tell me very detail what that verse should be translated as.

Those scriptures don't contradict what I believe at all Doc.

Paul

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #617 on: March 13, 2009, 02:47:19 AM »
No; I would not agree with that, because I firmly believe that is a misinterpretation of what those scriptures are saying.

Grace comes through faith, not after it. The works of the Spirit follow both grace and faith, both of which are gifts to us.

If there are a few scriptures that seem to contradict the rest of the witness of scripture, then there must be something wrong with the understanding of the scriptures that appear to contradict. As you said, there are no contradictions.

Please be more specific Doc.  How is Faith as access to Grace a misinterpretation.  Tell me very detail what that verse should be translated as.

Those scriptures don't contradict what I believe at all Doc.

Paul

Read pneuma's posts above. He explained it better than I can.

I say this, because I can see from your post that you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that those scriptures contradict what you believe.

"Faith as access to Grace", as you put it, is only part of the story, and that's what is confusing your thinking. As pneuma pointed out, Faith is sandwiched between "grace origins/ destinations" (my terminology), but it begins and ends with grace. It's simply a matter of you putting too much emphasis on only one part of the whole.

To use your terminology to put it another way; Grace gives us "access" to faith, which gives us "access" to more grace.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #618 on: March 13, 2009, 07:26:41 AM »
Read pneuma's posts above. He explained it better than I can.

I say this, because I can see from your post that you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying that those scriptures contradict what you believe.

"Faith as access to Grace", as you put it, is only part of the story, and that's what is confusing your thinking. As pneuma pointed out, Faith is sandwiched between "grace origins/ destinations" (my terminology), but it begins and ends with grace. It's simply a matter of you putting too much emphasis on only one part of the whole.

To use your terminology to put it another way; Grace gives us "access" to faith, which gives us "access" to more grace.

Well, I want to clarify that I don't believe we have personally obtained Grace until it is accessed.  Grace is FAVOR and only what is favored is going to be saved.   (of course all will eventually obtain favor).

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #619 on: March 13, 2009, 07:37:44 AM »
Rom 9:30  What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Consider these verses.  Romans 9:31 shows that there is a LAW OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.  The problem with the Israelites is that they pursued it by works of the law and not by Faith.  But the same law of righteousness is still a requirement for salvation!  It is how it is PURSUED that matters!

So let's look at the pursuit.  The problem with how the Israelites pursued the law was because they had debt (sin) and all they would sacrifice an animal to be relieved of that debt (sin).  But in their minds they were not pure because they knew that all they had to do was return and sacrifice another animal to have their debt erased.  So when they did their works to sacrifice they did so because they had to pay a debt.  So all their works were for payment of debt.  Because until the sacrifice was made their was debt.  Not so in Faith.  In Faith the moment we believe we are no longer in debt for our sins have been paid for at the cross.  But must still perform works. But here is the key part - the motivation will not be because of debt. We cannot return to sin for if we willfully sin after we have been enlightened then we may incurr the Wrath of God. 

Paul

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #620 on: March 13, 2009, 07:47:46 AM »
[To use your terminology to put it another way; Grace gives us "access" to faith, which gives us "access" to more grace.

Amen Doc..."grace..faith...and THAT not of yourselves"...that's why we can't boast, only humbly love Him and give thanks.  And out of that comes obedience, a desire to please...BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US!
Of myself, I was unable to do anything to access grace...love, mercy, and grace accessed, then apprehended me.

Mercy Came Running

Once there was a holy place
Evidence of God's embrace
And I can almost see mercy's face
Pressed against the veil

Looking down with longing eyes
Mercy must have realized
That once His blood was sacrificed
Freedom would prevail

And as the sky grew dark
And the earth began to shake
With justice no longer in the way

Chorus:
Mercy came running
Like a prisoner set free
Past all my failures to the point of my need
When the sin that I carried
Was all I could see
And when I could not reach mercy
Mercy came running to me

Once there was a broken heart
Way to human from the start
And all the years left it torn apart
Hopeless and afraid

Walls I never meant to build
Left this prisoner unfulfilled
Freedom called but even still
It seemed so far away

I was bound by the chains
From the wages of my sin
Just when I felt like giving in

Mercy came running
Like a prisoner set free
Past all my failures to the point of my need
When the sin that I carried
Was all I could see
And when I could not reach mercy
Mercy came running to me


Sometimes I still feel so far
So far from where I really should be
He gently calls to my heart
Just to remind me

Mercy came running
Like a prisoner set free
Past all my failures to the point of my need
When the sin that I carried
Was all I could see
And when I could not reach mercy
Mercy came running to me
                                  Phillips, Craig, and Dean
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 08:25:40 AM by jabcat »

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Works
« Reply #621 on: March 13, 2009, 08:16:36 AM »
Grace and faith, not Grace or faith ...
Faith and works, not Faith or works ...
Grace and works, but No One Can Merit the Unmerited!


peacemaker  :Peace2:

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #622 on: March 14, 2009, 01:32:58 AM »


Well, I want to clarify that I don't believe we have personally obtained Grace until it is accessed.  Grace is FAVOR and only what is favored is going to be saved.   (of course all will eventually obtain favor).

Paul


The problem with this is that grace is originally given before we are even conscious of it. Grace is unmerited favor.

Perhaps we can get some further clarification here. How do you believe we "obtain" or "access" grace?
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #623 on: March 14, 2009, 05:14:18 AM »

The problem with this is that grace is originally given before we are even conscious of it. Grace is unmerited favor.

Perhaps we can get some further clarification here. How do you believe we "obtain" or "access" grace?

I hope you will expand on what you mean by the Grace is originally given before we are even conscious of it.  Because if that is so then it means we are already saved since Grace means "favor".

As for the clarification, I'm glad you asked.

The Apostles Paul writes:

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Let's consider that together Doc.  That is not my words so if you disagree with them then please elaborate but if you agree with them then we must conclude that it Grace requires a form of Access and this scripture is telling us that Faith is that access.  That means before we personally have obtained FAVOR (Grace) that we have Faith.

James tells us this:

Jas 2:14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Now I'm sure we both agree that Grace is profit.  So can Faith without works (no profit) obtain what is profitable?  - No, according to James.

The key problem Doc is that everyone wants to quote verses in the Bible that the Apostles Paul says as which is:

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Notice in those verses the word "works".  But Paul says this also:

Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, aionios life:

That is Paul saying that those that are continuing in well doing (working) will receive "aionios life"

See the verse in Ephesians 2:9 clarifies whos works it refers to by saying "lest any MAN should boast".  The works that are done by those in Christ are His works.

Psalms shows the distinction more clearly:

Psa 28:3  Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.
Psa 28:4  Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.
Psa 28:5  Because they regard not the works of the LORD, nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up.

So Doc, the obtaining or access to Grace is FAITH + (works of Jesus Christ) THRU us.  If we do that we shall be saved.

Consider the parable of the talents Doc.  All of those servants were given a pound.  Is not everyone in Christ given a pound?  And what happens to one that did no works to increase his pound?

Luk 19:12  He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luk 19:13  And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
Luk 19:14  But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Luk 19:15  And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Luk 19:16  Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
Luk 19:17  And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luk 19:18  And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
Luk 19:19  And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
Luk 19:20  And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
Luk 19:21  For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
Luk 19:22  And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
Luk 19:23  Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
Luk 19:24  And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
Luk 19:25  (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
Luk 19:26  For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
Luk 19:27  But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

So see Doc, we have to DO Works.  Jesus is going to inspect the fruit of the branches.  Now know this - at no time did I mention that we are to do OUR works or the works of the letter of the law.  I am saying that the works we MUST do are those of the Christ.  It is Him working in us.

Paul

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Works
« Reply #624 on: March 14, 2009, 06:38:28 AM »
Access to Grace is through the faith of Jesus Christ, not of ourselves, it is that which is given; a gift. And, the work of Christ!

One does not profit from the weakness of others, but when we are weak; then I am (He is) strong.

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Just as it is written, "For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loves us.

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:26-39)

peacemaker
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 06:57:55 AM by peacemaker »