Works

[trettep]

Let me put it this way . . .(how I see and present it)
...#1 . .salvation comes by faith alone . . .period
...

But that is contrary to the scriptures.  It salvation comes by Grace THROUGH Faith.  So not Faith alone.  Faith is the ACCESS to Grace:

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

James implies there is NO profit in Faith that has no works.  So how can a No-Works-Faith produce Grace?  Isn't Grace a Profit? - I say it surely is.

Jas 2:14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Paul

[Zeek]

  Your comment about facing the light made me think of something. When I first came to the Lord, He had me to think of how a sundial works. I did. Then He told me to see myself as the stylus (upright) in the center, and He as the Sun. I did. Then He asked me a question. He said, "Where is the darkness?"

I said, "Behind me, Lord."  And He said, "And that is where it will stay as long as you keep your eyes on Me." Blessings.....

 

[trettep]

Thanks for doing that legwork for me Nathan. As good an example as any from scripture of what I'm talking about.


See, part of the problem Paul, is that sometimes we try to search the scriptures for specific verses to "prove" a theological position, when really what you have to look at is the "big picture" witness of the whole of scripture, as well as what God reveals to you personally. I'm a bit concerned you're getting caught up a bit too much in this works thing, and giving it more than it is due. In other words, I share the concern that others have already voiced.

There is a "kind" of grace that flows out of the works of God being done by Him through us, but His grace toward us personally that begins the whole process does not depend on our performance, nor does the continuation of the same. The more we exert the flesh over the spirit, the less of that outflow from us of grace that we'll see, but God's grace toward us does not change. That's what I'm talking about WRT the "different kinds" of grace.

Doc, I believe we are to live by every word of God. 

Mat 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

If one scripture conflicts a doctrine then that man's entire doctrine is a house of cards that has come crashing down.

Paul

[Zeek]

  Your comment about facing the light made me think of something. When I first came to the Lord, He had me to think of how a sundial works. I did. Then He told me to see myself as the stylus (upright) in the center, and He as the Sun. I did. Then He asked me a question. He said, "Where is the darkness?"

I said, "Behind me, Lord."  And He said, "And that is where it will stay as long as you keep your eyes on Me." Blessings.....

I wonder if Eve/Adam were standing between the two trees, with the tree of life behind them. 

[whyiloveitaly]

Doc,
The Spirit judges us (in a good way, mind you!). And it's the Spirit that gives us the fuel to do anything at all.
For example, if I'm walking down the street and I see someone in trouble, I FEEL a need to go to that person. To me, that feeling is God's Spirit in me. (He's in all of us, mind you; it's the FLESH that says to look the other way!)
That's when we're called upon to DO something to help, not just pray and say, "well, I'm saved by grace, not works.." and walk away.

(the other) Brian

[jabcat]

  Your comment about facing the light made me think of something. When I first came to the Lord, He had me to think of how a sundial works. I did. Then He told me to see myself as the stylus (upright) in the center, and He as the Sun. I did. Then He asked me a question. He said, "Where is the darkness?"

I said, "Behind me, Lord."  And He said, "And that is where it will stay as long as you keep your eyes on Me." Blessings.....

That's the one!   

[Nathan]

Doc . . . I'm not going to go any further in this but I do want to give credit where credit is due . . .your posts have always struck many harmonic chords in me . .and these last posts of yours are no exception to that.  You share my same vision perfectly.  

Blessings.

[Cardinal]

  Your comment about facing the light made me think of something. When I first came to the Lord, He had me to think of how a sundial works. I did. Then He told me to see myself as the stylus (upright) in the center, and He as the Sun. I did. Then He asked me a question. He said, "Where is the darkness?"

I said, "Behind me, Lord."  And He said, "And that is where it will stay as long as you keep your eyes on Me." Blessings.....

I wonder if Eve/Adam were standing between the two trees, with the tree of life behind them. 

  I would think they would have had to turn their backs on the light to look at the darkness and receive from it.........

[jabcat]

Doc . . . I'm not going to go any further in this but I do want to give credit where credit is due . . .your posts have always struck many harmonic chords in me . .and these last posts of yours are no exception to that.  You share my same vision perfectly.  

Blessings.

Can I be a ditto-head?

[DaughterofDavid]

  Your comment about facing the light made me think of something. When I first came to the Lord, He had me to think of how a sundial works. I did. Then He told me to see myself as the stylus (upright) in the center, and He as the Sun. I did. Then He asked me a question. He said, "Where is the darkness?"

I said, "Behind me, Lord."  And He said, "And that is where it will stay as long as you keep your eyes on Me." Blessings.....

Glorious....truly glorious....

Blessings,
DoD

[DaughterofDavid]

Hi Nathan,

I really like this that you wrote....

"For me, the purpose of the instructions in Scripture on the observation of another's fruit, is not so I can then go and attempt to instruct them of what their fruit "should" be, but it's to make me aware of what fruit they are feeding me.  If they are trying to instruct me without any fruit of life in their own walk, then that would indicate I should be very cautious in receiving anything from them.  "

Yes, I see what you are saying and I believe that is wisdom.

What do you think of this that Jude speaks of....

"Jud 1:20 But, ye, beloved! building yourselves up in your most holy faith, in Holy Spirit, praying,
Jud 1:21 Yourselves, in God's love, keep,—awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto age-abiding life.
Jud 1:22 And, on some, indeed, have mercy,—such as are in doubt, be saving, out of the fire, snatching them;
Jud 1:23 But, on others, have mercy with fear, hating even, the garment, spotted by the flesh.
Jud 1:24 Now, unto him who is able—to guard you from stumbling, and to set you in the presence of his glory, without blemish, with exultation,—
Jud 1:25 Unto God alone our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, greatness, dominion, and authority, before all the by-gone age, and now, and unto all the coming ages. Amen!"

I see these scriptures as being what our role IN CHRIST is to be for all those that are 'spotted by the flesh'.....

It seems that you are stating what Jude 1:23 is stating....that we are to recoginize other's fruit or lack thereof so that we will not be polluted with what comes out of their own mouths/hearts....for out of the overflow of the heart doth the mouth speak.

Ultimately....it is as Jude says....UNTO GOD ALONE....UNTO HIM WHO IS ABLE ....to guard you from stumbling....wheww....HalleluYah!

Be blessed!
DoD

[Nathan]

Absolutely and Amen . . .yet another perfect example of seeing how God reveals his truth to us because that is the Word that is in us, and then "affirms" it with his Word written before us.

If is see spots in the flesh of others . . . and am truly concerned, then the most effective way to remove them is on my knees before the Father . . .not in your face with Scriptures to point out your problems.

[DaughterofDavid]

As to the question of what is Good Works???


I believe that I AM the Good Work of my Father!

This to me is the ultimate GOOD WORK!

So the GOOD WORK(S)....are all THOSE that are IN CHRIST....whewww!!!

Now can somebody give the Lord a handclap>>>>

Be blessed Tentmaker Family!
DaughterofDavid

[sheila]

 

[Cardinal]

  AMEN.....

[Molly]

John 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.



Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Doc]

Thanks for doing that legwork for me Nathan. As good an example as any from scripture of what I'm talking about.


See, part of the problem Paul, is that sometimes we try to search the scriptures for specific verses to "prove" a theological position, when really what you have to look at is the "big picture" witness of the whole of scripture, as well as what God reveals to you personally. I'm a bit concerned you're getting caught up a bit too much in this works thing, and giving it more than it is due. In other words, I share the concern that others have already voiced.

There is a "kind" of grace that flows out of the works of God being done by Him through us, but His grace toward us personally that begins the whole process does not depend on our performance, nor does the continuation of the same. The more we exert the flesh over the spirit, the less of that outflow from us of grace that we'll see, but God's grace toward us does not change. That's what I'm talking about WRT the "different kinds" of grace.

Doc, I believe we are to live by every word of God. 

Mat 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

If one scripture conflicts a doctrine then that man's entire doctrine is a house of cards that has come crashing down.

Paul

I also believe we are to live by every word of God, not just the ones that are selected in isolation to support a "doctrine". That was the point I was trying to make. Although the scripture records the truth, not all truth is found only "in" scripture, and that fact does not take anything away from the scripture. It takes the Spirit to show us what is between the lines, though. There are no scriptures that truly conflict true "doctrine", they only conflict in our understanding. Once the Spirit guides us into understanding, there are no conflicts. The Word is the only place all truth is found. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not doctrines, not written words on a page.

[Cardinal]

It takes the Spirit to show us what is between the lines, though. There are no scriptures that truly conflict true "doctrine", they only conflict in our understanding. Once the Spirit guides us into understanding, there are no conflicts. The Word is the only place all truth is found. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not doctrines, not written words on a page.

  Amen Doc.....

[Doc]

Doc,
The Spirit judges us (in a good way, mind you!). And it's the Spirit that gives us the fuel to do anything at all.
For example, if I'm walking down the street and I see someone in trouble, I FEEL a need to go to that person. To me, that feeling is God's Spirit in me. (He's in all of us, mind you; it's the FLESH that says to look the other way!)
That's when we're called upon to DO something to help, not just pray and say, "well, I'm saved by grace, not works.." and walk away.

(the other) Brian

I do understand what you're talking about; however, the example you presented above could still come from the flesh (from the "good" side of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil).

I agree that "we" are to DO as well, but unless that doing is the Spirit of God flowing through/ out of me, it is the flesh and profits nothing. It's just getting caught up in that flesh life, in doing. My whole point is that we need to do and say ONLY what we see the Father doing and saying. Our job is to be the vessel. His job is to fill that vessel and work through us. We do have a cooperative role in this, but it is not our doing, it's His doing.

[DaughterofDavid]

AMEN.....

I just LOVE BOTH OF YOU!!! I love your dancing too....

 

DoD

[Doc]

This is not what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that we need to stop trying to do the works of the Spirit in the flesh. We need to let God flow in us and direct us, otherwise what we do is of the flesh. Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself, and he only spoke and did what he saw the Father speaking and doing. It is His life being lived out of us that does the works of the Spirit. We ourselves do nothing.

 
but once we have been enlighted, to continue to "let God flow in us and direct us", do we not need to renew our mind, stay facing HIM, in order for Him to work through us.  Run the race.  Be diligent, etc. 

I used to be a believer in "no free will", but I lean toward; once we've had our eyes opened; the scales removed, there is a choice, we are no longer blind, but we can turn away from the light.  If we keep facing the Light, it shines through us. 

any thots?

Sure, we need to have our minds renewed, and there is a "cooperative" role in that. But He is the initiator, because it is His life that does this in us. We of ourselves can do nothing. Without turning this into a no free-will vs. free will debate, Let me just say that my personal stance is that we have what one might call a limited free will. In other words, we have choice, but that will never stop God achieving His purposes. Just look at Jonah. He tried to say no and, well, you know how that turned out.  We can turn away from the light, but not forever.

[sheila]

   I will share my hearts desire with you,DOD.

   I had prayed to the Father to bring a lot of LOVE into my life

   this year.People that I could freely love and that could also

   love me. He has answered my prayer through the people here

   at TM ...May we all be granted to

  love one another INTENSELY FROM THE HEART!

   For LOVE IS A PERFECT BOND OF UNION

   To be able to share the treasures of the Kingdom in our hearts

  with one another..and to be understood...and to understand

  is one of the greatest rewards He could have given us.

   Many of us have lost the close intimate contacts of family

   and freind due to our being so centered on HIM..and others

   not being able to comprehend what we speak of spiritually,

  or even others twisting what we say,due to having trouble

 understanding..seem alienated from us

   Mark 10;29  'I tell you the truth,Jesus replied,'no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or feilds for me and the gospel, will fail to receive a hundred
times as much in this present age[homes,brothers sisters mothers children and feilds-along with persecutions] and in the age to come,eternal life"

   Your expession of love  to me,means more than I could ever express.Thank you,

                                 your sister,Sheila

   

[DaughterofDavid]

   I will share my hearts desire with you,DOD.

   I had prayed to the Father to bring a lot of LOVE into my life

   this year.People that I could freely love and that could also

   love me. He has answered my prayer through the people here

   at TM ...May we all be granted to

  love one another INTENSELY FROM THE HEART!

   For LOVE IS A PERFECT BOND OF UNION

   To be able to share the treasures of the Kingdom in our hearts

  with one another..and to be understood...and to understand

  is one of the greatest rewards He could have given us.

   Many of us have lost the close intimate contacts of family

   and freind due to our being so centered on HIM..and others

   not being able to comprehend what we speak of spiritually,

  or even others twisting what we say,due to having trouble

 understanding..seem alienated from us

   Mark 10;29  'I tell you the truth,Jesus replied,'no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or feilds for me and the gospel, will fail to receive a hundred
times as much in this present age[homes,brothers sisters mothers children and feilds-along with persecutions] and in the age to come,eternal life"

   Your expession of love  to me,means more than I could ever express.Thank you,

                                 your sister,Sheila

   

OH! My sister I want you to know that you have RICHLY BLESSED me by all that you wrote above.

I am someone who UNDERSTANDS what you have written....the deep price that one pays when following the Lamb whithersoever He goeth....and it has all been worth it.

Almost exactly a year ago The Lamb said to me..."I want you to leave all that you have known to come into all that you have not known"....

Over the last several years He has seperated my family from many friends (dearly loved ones) and also natural family...and I know that He doesn't do that with everyone but it has been the way that He has chosen for us....in a very literal way.

I know that verse that you speak of....for it was in SOWING my natural family (mother/father)
 that I was given the RICHES of those in the Fatherhood realm to be my teachers. This was when I learned of Sonship...of the restitution of all things...and so much more....and continue to.

In obedience I followed Him...not understanding....but obeying....and it was after I got out of the boat that He revealed to me that b/c of my SURRENDERING my natural parents He now was free to move in a mighty way while they are here on earth....and accomplish much within their lives....and that we would one day ALL celebrate together what the Lord HAS DONE....what a RE-UNION this will be! He is so precious to me b/c when I surrendered them I was just coming to understand about the restoration of all things (and not by any man either but by Holy Spirit)....but yet I still had the false error of the Hell teaching so I didn't understand how that would work...and as soon as I let go....He REVEALED the truth that ALL WILL BE SAVED and that everlasting torment is a LIE.

To me this is the Higher law of what it means to Honor Father and Mother....to lay your own life down and reputation... to deny self...b/c of the desire of self to be not misunderstood by other family members....and TRUST FATHER to do the greater work of bringing salvation instead of staying on the scene and only getting in the way to their own hurt.

This is why Yahshua could say "I have come to bring a sword..." and still uphold the commandment to honor father and mother....b/c He was speaking of THE GREATER LAW of Love....that exceeds the letter.

You are so right my precious sister....that LOVE IS THE BOND OF PERFECTION. That is AGAPE.

I count it my great honor and privelge to know you....and I honor WHO HE IS IN YOU.

Forever yours,
DoD

[Cardinal]

  A big AMEN to both of you ladie's posts......

[trettep]

I also believe we are to live by every word of God, not just the ones that are selected in isolation to support a "doctrine". That was the point I was trying to make. Although the scripture records the truth, not all truth is found only "in" scripture, and that fact does not take anything away from the scripture. It takes the Spirit to show us what is between the lines, though. There are no scriptures that truly conflict true "doctrine", they only conflict in our understanding. Once the Spirit guides us into understanding, there are no conflicts. The Word is the only place all truth is found. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Not doctrines, not written words on a page.

Doc, I don't believe any single verse can contradict the rest of God's Word.  So having said (and I believe you would agree), do you not agree also that Faith without works cannot ACCESS the Grace NEEDED to save us?

Paul