Works

[Cardinal]

  I keep going back to Noah with this. Noah found grace in God's eyes. What was the difference between him and the ones that perished? Was it not that he believed and acted upon it? Blessings.....

[Paul Hazelwood]

Ti 2:11 For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity,



I'm done.

[Molly]

I keep going back to Noah with this. Noah found grace in God's eyes. What was the difference between him and the ones that perished? Was it not that he believed and acted upon it? Blessings.....

Yes, and the same with Abraham.

Genesis 15:6
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

[Molly]

Ti 2:11 For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity,



I'm done.

that's just saying this:

Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

[Zeek]

Ti 2:11 For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity,



I'm done.

that's just saying this:

Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

yes, and HE is the Light of the World, that lighteth every man that cometh into the world,

but the world knew him not.

[Molly]

Ti 2:11 For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity,



I'm done.

that's just saying this:

Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

yes, and HE is the Light of the World, that lighteth every man that cometh into the world,

but the world knew him not.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

--John 3

[trettep]

Ti 2:11 For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity,

I'm done.

Tit 2:11  For that grace of God, that bringeth saluation vnto all men, hath appeared,

Paul

[Doc]

Hi Zeek.  To me, this moves into that "when is a person saved" area.  I personally (though I know many disagree) believe until God gives the faith to believe to each individual (an individual experience) we are not as yet reconciled to Him, i.e., not yet saved.  So I don't see saving grace operating yet in an unbeliever's life (God still loves them, plans good for them at the consummation, so a "grace" of that sort...not sure what else to call it);  but that they are still awaiting their day of bowing and confessing, their personal gift of belief unto salvation.  And God will bring them to that place, just not yet.  It appears to me many (most?) will be saved through destruction. My  . 

I would only differ from you 'slightly' on this one. We are reconciled to God before we are given the faith to believe it.

2Co 5:19  as, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not charging their deviations to them, and having put the Word of reconciliation in us. (LITV)

Part of the salvation process is being given the faith to see this.

Most will be saved through destruction though; destruction of the flesh.

[Doc]

I think people are missing the point that the scriptures are making.

It's being said that grace is not for the unbeliever?  Really?

Can an unbeliever be drawn to believe without grace?  No.  It is Grace that will prevent the unbeliever from being in a state of unbelief for eternity.   So Grace is for the unbeliever whether you like it or not.

How is Grace for an unbeliever if only the believers can access it?  Faith is access to Grace.  Faith would exclude the unbeliever and if the unbeliever is excluded then they don't have Grace.  BUT if you disagree then tell me what it means to fall from Grace?  For if all the unbelievers have Grace then how does the unbeliever fall from Grace?

Paul
 

Depends on whose faith you're talking about. I think we might also be mixing types of grace here.

What falling from grace is, is trying to do the works of God in the flesh. That's how Adam and Eve fell from grace. They tried to be like God by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We think we can make "Adam" (flesh) Godly. We can't. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

[trettep]

Depends on whose faith you're talking about. I think we might also be mixing types of grace here.

What falling from grace is, is trying to do the works of God in the flesh. That's how Adam and Eve fell from grace. They tried to be like God by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We think we can make "Adam" (flesh) Godly. We can't. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

What scriptures can you provide to backup the statement that falling from Grace is when we do the works of God?

Paul

[Zeek]

I think people are missing the point that the scriptures are making.

It's being said that grace is not for the unbeliever?  Really?

Can an unbeliever be drawn to believe without grace?  No.  It is Grace that will prevent the unbeliever from being in a state of unbelief for eternity.   So Grace is for the unbeliever whether you like it or not.

How is Grace for an unbeliever if only the believers can access it?  Faith is access to Grace.  Faith would exclude the unbeliever and if the unbeliever is excluded then they don't have Grace.  BUT if you disagree then tell me what it means to fall from Grace?  For if all the unbelievers have Grace then how does the unbeliever fall from Grace?

Paul
 

Depends on whose faith you're talking about. I think we might also be mixing types of grace here.

What falling from grace is, is trying to do the works of God in the flesh. That's how Adam and Eve fell from grace. They tried to be like God by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We think we can make "Adam" (flesh) Godly. We can't. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

there is more than one type of grace?? 

can you explain?

thanks

z

[Tony N]

I keep going back to Noah with this. Noah found grace in God's eyes. What was the difference between him and the ones that perished? Was it not that he believed and acted upon it? Blessings.....

The same word for "found" as in "Noah found grace" is the same word translated "receive." Noah received grace from God. Most likely the grace he received was the grace that made him righteous in relation to those around him.

We don't merit grace. We don't do anything to receive grace from God. Well, actually that's not completely true. We have to be sinners. That's the prerequisite.

[trettep]

The same word for "found" as in "Noah found grace" is the same word translated "receive." Noah received grace from God. Most likely the grace he received was the grace that made him righteous in relation to those around him.

We don't merit grace. We don't do anything to receive grace from God. Well, actually that's not completely true. We have to be sinners. That's the prerequisite.

My take on this Tony is that Christ has to do something through us (which means we will exhibit His works) to access that Grace.  Jesus had Grace and was never a sinner. 

Paul

[Nathan]

Depends on whose faith you're talking about. I think we might also be mixing types of grace here.

What falling from grace is, is trying to do the works of God in the flesh. That's how Adam and Eve fell from grace. They tried to be like God by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We think we can make "Adam" (flesh) Godly. We can't. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

What scriptures can you provide to backup the statement that falling from Grace is when we do the works of God?

Paul

The book of Galatians perhaps?  The whole message there was . . ."What happened to you?  Why am I hearing that you're professing salvation comes through grace AND WORKS  (paraphrasing, but I'll look it up and post it in a sec.) 

After his initial salutations to the church of Galatia . . .Paul jumped right in and expressed his great concern with them accepting ANOTHER GOSPEL other than the one he originally established.  Then for the rest of chapter 1 . .and through chapter 2, Paul builds his case concerning the authenticity of the message that he himself brought to them.  Then we finally get to the point of his letter . . .the original message he established with them is this . . .

Galatians 2:16
 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.



This is why so many here are not comfortable with this idea that salvation comes through grace PLUS works . . . it's a message that muddies up what was once clear . . .salvation comes through grace BY FAITH ALONE.
 
 1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?  2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?  4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.  5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Salvation comes through faith . . .and it's maintained by the same Spirit that enables us to see, and receive it.  Salvation is not maintained by works.  Christ works, or otherwise.  For me, the works of Christ in me are the fruit, they are the manifestation that the process of redemption is alive in me.  They are not a requirment in order for my salvation to be maintained.

Galatians 5
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.  3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.  4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.  6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[Tony N]

The same word for "found" as in "Noah found grace" is the same word translated "receive." Noah received grace from God. Most likely the grace he received was the grace that made him righteous in relation to those around him.

We don't merit grace. We don't do anything to receive grace from God. Well, actually that's not completely true. We have to be sinners. That's the prerequisite.

My take on this Tony is that Christ has to do something through us (which means we will exhibit His works) to access that Grace.  Jesus had Grace and was never a sinner. 

Paul

True, Jesus was never a sinner but He did nothing to merit God's gace coming on Him:

Luk 2:40 Now the little Boy grows up and was staunch in spirit, being filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was on Him."

But we, being sinners, do nothing to merit God's grace.

Likewise Saul, who became Paul is a test case for grace because grace overwhelmed him while on the road to kill christians. He did nothing to merit God's grace:

1Ti 1:13-16  I, who formerly was a calumniator and a persecutor and an outrager: but I was shown mercy, seeing that I do it being ignorant, in unbelief."  (14)  Yet the grace of our Lord overwhelms, with faith and love in Christ Jesus."  (15)  Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I."  (16)  But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, for a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian."

[whyiloveitaly]

I think that we can fool ourselves into thinking that we don't need to do anything since we are saved by the blood of Christ. I call them the "do-nothings for Christ."
In reality, if we say that we're saved, and there is no REAL change in our lifestyles, then we've missed something.
If we have no new works that are being manifested daily in our lives, then our faith is DEAD.

It's veeerrrrryyy comfortable to just say, "well, bless God, I'm saved, I don't need to do anything!!"
The real question is, how can you NOT do anything if you're saved????


Personally, I strive to do works for Him everyday, because I love Him!! And I want to please Him!!  That does NOT in any way mean that I feel like I'm trying to justify myself by what I do!!!! I know well that He loved me from the time I was created, so I don't have to worry about trying to earn salvation. Yet I still want to do the works!!

Blessings,
Brian

[trettep]

The book of Galatians perhaps?  The whole message there was . . ."What happened to you?  Why am I hearing that you're professing salvation comes through grace AND WORKS  (paraphrasing, but I'll look it up and post it in a sec.) 

After his initial salutations to the church of Galatia . . .Paul jumped right in and expressed his great concern with them accepting ANOTHER GOSPEL other than the one he originally established.  Then for the rest of chapter 1 . .and through chapter 2, Paul builds his case concerning the authenticity of the message that he himself brought to them.  Then we finally get to the point of his letter . . .the original message he established with them is this . . .

Galatians 2:16
 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.



This is why so many here are not comfortable with this idea that salvation comes through grace PLUS works . . . it's a message that muddies up what was once clear . . .salvation comes through grace BY FAITH ALONE.
 
 1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?  2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?  4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.  5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Salvation comes through faith . . .and it's maintained by the same Spirit that enables us to see, and receive it.  Salvation is not maintained by works.  Christ works, or otherwise.  For me, the works of Christ in me are the fruit, they are the manifestation that the process of redemption is alive in me.  They are not a requirment in order for my salvation to be maintained.

Galatians 5
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.  3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.  4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.  6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Wasn't the Galatians fault that they had returned to performing the works of the flesh?  What has that to do with the performing the works of the Christ?  How is that a refutation of the fact that must perform His work?

Paul

[trettep]

I think that we can fool ourselves into thinking that we don't need to do anything since we are saved by the blood of Christ. I call them the "do-nothings for Christ."
In reality, if we say that we're saved, and there is no REAL change in our lifestyles, then we've missed something.
If we have no new works that are being manifested daily in our lives, then our faith is DEAD.

It's veeerrrrryyy comfortable to just say, "well, bless God, I'm saved, I don't need to do anything!!"
The real question is, how can you NOT do anything if you're saved????


Personally, I strive to do works for Him everyday, because I love Him!! And I want to please Him!!  That does NOT in any way mean that I feel like I'm trying to justify myself by what I do!!!! I know well that He loved me from the time I was created, so I don't have to worry about trying to earn salvation. Yet I still want to do the works!!

Blessings,
Brian

You sound like your trying to provoke others unto Good Works:

Heb 10:24  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:


 

Paul

[Nathan]

The book of Galatians perhaps?  The whole message there was . . ."What happened to you?  Why am I hearing that you're professing salvation comes through grace AND WORKS  (paraphrasing, but I'll look it up and post it in a sec.) 

After his initial salutations to the church of Galatia . . .Paul jumped right in and expressed his great concern with them accepting ANOTHER GOSPEL other than the one he originally established.  Then for the rest of chapter 1 . .and through chapter 2, Paul builds his case concerning the authenticity of the message that he himself brought to them.  Then we finally get to the point of his letter . . .the original message he established with them is this . . .

Galatians 2:16
 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.



This is why so many here are not comfortable with this idea that salvation comes through grace PLUS works . . . it's a message that muddies up what was once clear . . .salvation comes through grace BY FAITH ALONE.
 
 1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?  2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?  4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.  5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Salvation comes through faith . . .and it's maintained by the same Spirit that enables us to see, and receive it.  Salvation is not maintained by works.  Christ works, or otherwise.  For me, the works of Christ in me are the fruit, they are the manifestation that the process of redemption is alive in me.  They are not a requirment in order for my salvation to be maintained.

Galatians 5
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.  3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.  4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.  6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Wasn't the Galatians fault that they had returned to performing the works of the flesh?  What has that to do with the performing the works of the Christ?  How is that a refutation of the fact that must perform His work?

Paul

I'm saying that your claim of combining works with faith lies very close to their claim that they sustain their salvation through their works . . .which you also claimed . . .you're ebracing the works just as they are . .but you've just redefined them which appears to justify the emphasis on works. 

Let me put it this way . . .(how I see and present it)
#1 . .salvation comes by faith alone . . .period
#2 . . ."If" there is no fruit manifesting in the one claiming to have the salvation . . .(and here is where we differ) that is between the individual and God.  "If" you have accepted Christ in your life . .then he is in you . . .working . .. changing the desires of your heart to the desires of God's will in your life.  If your desires are not changed . . .if there is no transformation on the outside, then there's no activity on the inside.  But my problem with what's been shared on this is that there seems to be an emphasis on the outward activity.

So, if my fruit don't measure up to your standards . .then what?  You approach me and inform me that I must be more like Christ? You quote me Scriptures that imply my fruit must be Christ like?  What is the purpose of the approach?  If Christ is in me, is that not enough to enable me to have the transformation alone?  Is that not the Holy Spirit's role?  To lead me into a more pure life . . . to reform my outward actions?

And if Christ is not in me . . .then what good does forcing my outward actions to give the appearance there's been an inward transformation?  That's what religion does already.

Either way . . .whether the fruit is seen, or whether it isn't . . .why would we choose to confront each other on what is seen and what isn't?

For me, the purpose of the instructions in Scripture on the observation of another's fruit, is not so I can then go and attempt to instruct them of what their fruit "should" be, but it's to make me aware of what fruit they are feeding me.  If they are trying to instruct me without any fruit of life in their own walk, then that would indicate I should be very cautious in receiving anything from them. 

[whyiloveitaly]

Maybe it would be good to SPECIFY "good works."
For example, good works might be speaking in tongues, healing, performing miracles.
For some, good works is going to church, reading the Bible, praying, etc.
For other people, good works might be visiting the sick and dying, comforting the lonely, sharing a word of encouragement here and there.
Still others might consider good works all of the things they DON'T do, such as swear, lie, kill, get irate..
What works are being talked about here?

Also, if it is Christ that does the works in us, then it's true that we cannot judge people by their works, because that's the Lord's job.

The slippery slope I see with "saved by grace, not works" folks is that they tend not to do ANY works because they're afraid they might start feeling "justified by their works" if they do them!

Just a couple of thoughts,
(the other) Brian

[Doc]

Depends on whose faith you're talking about. I think we might also be mixing types of grace here.

What falling from grace is, is trying to do the works of God in the flesh. That's how Adam and Eve fell from grace. They tried to be like God by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We think we can make "Adam" (flesh) Godly. We can't. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

What scriptures can you provide to backup the statement that falling from Grace is when we do the works of God?

Paul

The book of Galatians perhaps?  The whole message there was . . ."What happened to you?  Why am I hearing that you're professing salvation comes through grace AND WORKS  (paraphrasing, but I'll look it up and post it in a sec.) 

After his initial salutations to the church of Galatia . . .Paul jumped right in and expressed his great concern with them accepting ANOTHER GOSPEL other than the one he originally established.  Then for the rest of chapter 1 . .and through chapter 2, Paul builds his case concerning the authenticity of the message that he himself brought to them.  Then we finally get to the point of his letter . . .the original message he established with them is this . . .

Galatians 2:16
 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.



This is why so many here are not comfortable with this idea that salvation comes through grace PLUS works . . . it's a message that muddies up what was once clear . . .salvation comes through grace BY FAITH ALONE.
 
 1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?  2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?  4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.  5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Salvation comes through faith . . .and it's maintained by the same Spirit that enables us to see, and receive it.  Salvation is not maintained by works.  Christ works, or otherwise.  For me, the works of Christ in me are the fruit, they are the manifestation that the process of redemption is alive in me.  They are not a requirment in order for my salvation to be maintained.

Galatians 5
1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.  3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.  4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.  6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Thanks for doing that legwork for me Nathan. As good an example as any from scripture of what I'm talking about.


See, part of the problem Paul, is that sometimes we try to search the scriptures for specific verses to "prove" a theological position, when really what you have to look at is the "big picture" witness of the whole of scripture, as well as what God reveals to you personally. I'm a bit concerned you're getting caught up a bit too much in this works thing, and giving it more than it is due. In other words, I share the concern that others have already voiced.

There is a "kind" of grace that flows out of the works of God being done by Him through us, but His grace toward us personally that begins the whole process does not depend on our performance, nor does the continuation of the same. The more we exert the flesh over the spirit, the less of that outflow from us of grace that we'll see, but God's grace toward us does not change. That's what I'm talking about WRT the "different kinds" of grace.

[Doc]

I think that we can fool ourselves into thinking that we don't need to do anything since we are saved by the blood of Christ. I call them the "do-nothings for Christ."
In reality, if we say that we're saved, and there is no REAL change in our lifestyles, then we've missed something.
If we have no new works that are being manifested daily in our lives, then our faith is DEAD.

It's veeerrrrryyy comfortable to just say, "well, bless God, I'm saved, I don't need to do anything!!"
The real question is, how can you NOT do anything if you're saved????


Personally, I strive to do works for Him everyday, because I love Him!! And I want to please Him!!  That does NOT in any way mean that I feel like I'm trying to justify myself by what I do!!!! I know well that He loved me from the time I was created, so I don't have to worry about trying to earn salvation. Yet I still want to do the works!!

Blessings,
Brian

This is not what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that we need to stop trying to do the works of the Spirit in the flesh. We need to let God flow in us and direct us, otherwise what we do is of the flesh. Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself, and he only spoke and did what he saw the Father speaking and doing. It is His life being lived out of us that does the works of the Spirit. We ourselves do nothing.

It's also very easy to fool ourselves into thinking that we are not trying to justify ourselves by what we do.


Let me ask you another question here. Who is the judge of whether we are "not doing anything?" as you describe above?

[Cardinal]

This is not what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that we need to stop trying to do the works of the Spirit in the flesh. We need to let God flow in us and direct us, otherwise what we do is of the flesh. Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself, and he only spoke and did what he saw the Father speaking and doing. It is His life being lived out of us that does the works of the Spirit. We ourselves do nothing.

   You hit on a very good point here Doc......the gifts of the Spirit can be "prostituted", ie. used to build up kingdoms for men instead of being used to build up the kingdom of God IN MEN. Blessings....

[Zeek]

This is not what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that we need to stop trying to do the works of the Spirit in the flesh. We need to let God flow in us and direct us, otherwise what we do is of the flesh. Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself, and he only spoke and did what he saw the Father speaking and doing. It is His life being lived out of us that does the works of the Spirit. We ourselves do nothing.

 
but once we have been enlighted, to continue to "let God flow in us and direct us", do we not need to renew our mind, stay facing HIM, in order for Him to work through us.  Run the race.  Be diligent, etc. 

I used to be a believer in "no free will", but I lean toward; once we've had our eyes opened; the scales removed, there is a choice, we are no longer blind, but we can turn away from the light.  If we keep facing the Light, it shines through us. 

any thots?

[Cardinal]

   Your comment about facing the light made me think of something. When I first came to the Lord, He had me to think of how a sundial works. I did. Then He told me to see myself as the stylus (upright) in the center, and He as the Sun. I did. Then He asked me a question. He said, "Where is the darkness?"

I said, "Behind me, Lord."  And He said, "And that is where it will stay as long as you keep your eyes on Me." Blessings.....