Author Topic: Works  (Read 123757 times)

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DaughterofDavid

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Re: Works
« Reply #475 on: March 09, 2009, 03:41:48 PM »
Hello Jabcat,

Thank you for sharing your heart with us. I treasure it.
After reading all that you wrote....all I could see was such a PURE HEART.....a heart that wants to please His Lord with all his might....a heart that is ever seeking to know Him more....a heart that only wants to do His will.....a heart that wants to understand the Word.....just one big HEART that the Lord loves so deeply. :HeartThrob:

You are precious my brother....and I am honored to know Him in you.

Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall SEE GOD.

DaughterofDavid

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #476 on: March 09, 2009, 03:50:43 PM »
...
So, since you asked, I believe I'm responsible for my sins and receive said judgment, and that God is responsible for goodness (even if He empowers me to do some) and should get all praise.  Not good at it, but it's how I understand it.

I believe a bit differently here.  I know God holds us accountable for our sins but I don't believe that is the same thing as responsible.   At least I see a distinction in God's Word.

Paul

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #477 on: March 09, 2009, 06:49:54 PM »

I spent my formative years in/and affected by a church community environment of, if you get saved, OK, but guess what?  Now you have to; stop smoking (or go to hell), not take one sip of beer or wine (or go to hell), men not wear your hair over your ears (or go to hell), women don't wear pants (or go to hell), don't say darn, much less, you know, the other 'd' word (or go to hell), don't listen to rock n roll (or go to hell), don't watch TV (or go to hell), absolutely don't go to a movie (or go to hell), don't dance (or go to hell), pray often enough or (lose your salvation and, you guess it, go to hell), stay as close to God "as you're supposed to" (or go to hell), don't think like that (or go to hell), read your Bible enough, love God enough, or "stay on fire for God enough" (or you'll be spewed out of His mouth and...go to hell), get baptized by immersion and with the correct words said over you (or go to hell), get saved at an altar on your knees, crying..there has to be crying or you're not saved (or go to hell)...

 :cloud9: What?! You mean they're not ALL like that?  :winkgrin: Seriously though, that was my brief experience in all but one of the churches I attended. Glad you made it out alive, James  :HeartThrob:  Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #478 on: March 09, 2009, 08:26:50 PM »
Jabcat, I've truly enjoyed ALL of your posts.  I've found there is much in common with what you say and what I think.  In reading some of your background. . .even that is similar, all though mine was not of a Baptist background . .but pentecostal . . .which really doesn't matter because I'm learning that the label on the front may be different, but the enforcement within is just as brutal . . . same song, different verse.

And like you, I also have a twinge of unsettlement every time I see the works are raised to the same level as the grace . . .even the faith.  It is because of Grace that I am enabled to receive "anything" . .so for me . . .it all starts with Grace . . .and it's my "faith" that activates the grace in me.  I believe, therefore I "am". 

Why the need for the measuring at all?  Why the emphasis on works at all?  Whether it's the works of Christ or the works of flesh, to me . . .for me to conciously focus on either one of them is not where the relationship is at.  Relationship is in the person, not in the attributes of the person.  Jesus went out of his way to bring healing to the body through "his" grace, mercy and love.  'My' yoke is easy . .my burden is light . . .

As he lives in us, he matures us, he gives us direction, he gives us strength to move in the direction of his choosing . . . When I begin to focus on trying to do what he did, walk like he walked, think like he thought . . .all of that, when I begin trying to follow that through my concious choice, I have gone from pursuing Christ . . .to idolizing the fruit . . . the truth is . . .as you pursue Christ . . . those things take on a life of their own "in" me without me trying to purposefully do them.  He changes my desires, he changes my appetite for what is good and what is bad.  But it's not because I chose that diet, but because he put a desire in me to do that.

Actually, I speak metaphorically, but this is also something that has happened to me literally . . . for the past month or so, I have been craving salad . . .all the time . . . even as I write this, I have a bag next to me with a mix of calliflower, celery, carrots, broccoli and cherry tomatos . . .this is not how I used to eat . .but my appetite has changed.  I don't eat the same things I used to eat when I was in my youth . .as we mature, spiritually as well . . .as we mature, he changes our appetites.

I just don't feel comfortable telling people they must combine works in with their faith in order to gain, or maintain their salvation.  It's not about me . .it's not about my success or failure . . .I'm supposed to decrease so that he can increase . . .it's as Paul said . . .I pursue Christ and him alone . .everything else is secondary after that.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #479 on: March 09, 2009, 08:31:07 PM »
 :cloud9: Nathan; sounds like a "Daniel fast" to me......."pulse" (Old English word for veggies and grains) and water. He's put me on those several times, and I wish He would again. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #480 on: March 09, 2009, 08:48:47 PM »

And like you, I also have a twinge of unsettlement every time I see the works are raised to the same level as the grace . . .even the faith.  It is because of Grace that I am enabled to receive "anything" . .so for me . . .it all starts with Grace . . .and it's my "faith" that activates the grace in me.  I believe, therefore I "am". 

Hi Nathan. It is not like I wait until someone says something wrong until I want to say something but what you wrote above kind of made me think of something.
I bolded the part I wish to say something about. I don't understand the flipping back and forth. First of all you say it is because of Grace that you are enabled to receive anything. That is so true! But then you seem to backtrack and state that "it is my faith that activates the grace in me." But, Nathan, grace grows in accord with the weakkness of our faith. As a matter of fact, grace increases when we sin. Not that we should sin so that grace would increase! God forbid! (see Romans 5:20). So it would seem that the more we lack faith the greater grace becomes to pick up the lack.


Quote
Nathan wrote: I just don't feel comfortable telling people they must combine works in with their faith in order to gain, or maintain their salvation.  It's not about me . .it's not about my success or failure . . .I'm supposed to decrease so that he can increase . . .it's as Paul said . . .I pursue Christ and him alone . .everything else is secondary after that.

Amen to that!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 08:52:49 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #481 on: March 09, 2009, 08:54:40 PM »

And like you, I also have a twinge of unsettlement every time I see the works are raised to the same level as the grace . . .even the faith.  It is because of Grace that I am enabled to receive "anything" . .so for me . . .it all starts with Grace . . .and it's my "faith" that activates the grace in me.  I believe, therefore I "am". 

Hi Nathan. It is not like I wait until someone says something wrong until I want to say something but what you wrote above kind of made me think of something.
I bolded the part I wish to say something about. I don't understand the flipping back and forth. First of all you say it is because of Grace that you are enabled to receive anything. That is so true! But then you seem to backtrack and state that "it is my faith that activates the grace in me." But, Nathan, grace is one of the constants on God's chosen ones. It does not grow nor diminish according to the strength and weakness of our faith. As a matter of fact, grace increases when we sin. Not that we should sin so that grace would increase! God forbid! (see Romans 5:20). So it would seem that the more we lack faith the greater grace becomes to pick up the lack.


Quote
Nathan wrote: I just don't feel comfortable telling people they must combine works in with their faith in order to gain, or maintain their salvation.  It's not about me . .it's not about my success or failure . . .I'm supposed to decrease so that he can increase . . .it's as Paul said . . .I pursue Christ and him alone . .everything else is secondary after that.

Amen to that!

Well, now you have "me" thinking about that as well . . . the reason I say it like I said it is because even though Grace exists in and around me whether I acknowledge it or not, when I "believe" in that grace . . .it creates a reaction in me . . .it activates it in me in the sense that I'm now able to let go of the labors I once embraced.  If I didn't believe in that grace, I would continue living according to my own measuring rather than let it go and exercise that Grace in me.  It's not flipping back and forth . . .Grace began it all.  Faith or no faith . .grace abounds.  the faith just makes the Grace manifest more vividly in my life.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #482 on: March 09, 2009, 09:02:47 PM »
 :cloud9: This is something I've been thinking about. When I did not know God, and was walking in sin, grace should have abounded all the more. Not saying it didn't, grace is unmerited favor, and I sure didn't merit any, but for sure, I wasn't aware of His grace, as I was too busy walking out all the generational curses in my life.

Now then I didn't know, but now that I know, I have seen over the years when disobedient, that it did seem that His unmerited favor withdrew itself a bit as I walked out what my flesh had reaped. Whereas when I've been obedient in whatever He had me walking in at the time, for sure He turned some things that could have been very destructive, and gave me favor with men, against what would have been expected. Not sure what I'm trying to point out here, just my musings on it all, out loud. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #483 on: March 09, 2009, 09:19:41 PM »
Thank you all for your gracious hearts and wonderful words of truth. 

Paul, as I stated in my little "testimony", "This is my walk with Him, and He knows how to finish my salvation.  Your walk may be different, but He also knows exactly what to do with yours."

God's blessing, James.
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #484 on: March 09, 2009, 09:44:39 PM »
Hi Nathan. It is not like I wait until someone says something wrong until I want to say something but what you wrote above kind of made me think of something.
I bolded the part I wish to say something about. I don't understand the flipping back and forth. First of all you say it is because of Grace that you are enabled to receive anything. That is so true! But then you seem to backtrack and state that "it is my faith that activates the grace in me." But, Nathan, grace grows in accord with the weakkness of our faith. As a matter of fact, grace increases when we sin. Not that we should sin so that grace would increase! God forbid! (see Romans 5:20). So it would seem that the more we lack faith the greater grace becomes to pick up the lack.


Quote
Nathan wrote: I just don't feel comfortable telling people they must combine works in with their faith in order to gain, or maintain their salvation.  It's not about me . .it's not about my success or failure . . .I'm supposed to decrease so that he can increase . . .it's as Paul said . . .I pursue Christ and him alone . .everything else is secondary after that.

Amen to that!

Tony, Grace doesn't increase the more we sin.  I believe you interpreting Romans 5:20 incorrectly.  Romans 5:20 is saying where sin abounded (which is in all of us via our Old Man) that Grace is NOW abounding (after we have access Grace) more.

Paul

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #485 on: March 10, 2009, 12:30:27 AM »
The bottom line for me is that he is the author and perfecter (finisher) of our faith, which is the starting point of all of this. He is the beginning and the end. All things came from him and all things will return to him. If he starts it, and he finishes it, what's left for me to do? Nothing. It's all God working in and through us, until there is nothing left of the flesh, and it's all God there. How else do we think God is going to be all in all? "I live, yet it is no longer I, but Christ". Do we have choices to make? Certainly, but he works all according to his will, and works all things together for our good. Our job is not to do anything, but to be the vessel for God to live his life out through us. He will do his works in and through us

We can't even pretend to understand it all, because his thoughts are not our thoughts, nor his ways our ways. That is, until his thoughts become "our" thoughts, and his ways become "our" ways.  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 12:38:31 AM by Doc »
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #486 on: March 10, 2009, 12:35:27 AM »
Rom 5:20 Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds,
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #487 on: March 10, 2009, 12:47:18 AM »
The bottom line for me is that he is the author and perfecter (finisher) of our faith, which is the starting point of all of this. He is the beginning and the end. All things came from him and all things will return to him. If he starts it, and he finishes it, what's left for me to do? Nothing. It's all God working in and through us, until there is nothing left of the flesh, and it's all God there. How else do we think God is going to be all in all? "I live, yet it is no longer I, but Christ". Do we have choices to make? Certainly, but he works all according to his will, and works all things together for our good. Our job is not to do anything, but to be the vessel for God to live his life out through us. He will do his works in and through us

We can't even pretend to understand it all, because his thoughts are not our thoughts, nor his ways our ways. That is, until his thoughts become "our" thoughts, and his ways become "our" ways.  :cloud9:

Doc Holliday, here you go writing out my own thoughts again  :laughing7:... :thumbsup:.  We must be brothers separated at birth..maybe twins even..maybe that's why momma used to call me Roc(khead).  Just kidding, she was a good momma.

Tony, if God's grace didn't superceed, I'd be a dead duck.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 12:51:25 AM by jabcat »
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #488 on: March 10, 2009, 12:50:04 AM »
Not necessarily a cause and effect in romans 5:20

does grace wait for sin or does  grace already super exceed sin in the first place.


Or does it matter? Can sin ever exceed grace?  If it can't then,  it can't,  no matter how ya word it.





Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #489 on: March 10, 2009, 12:52:49 AM »
Amen Paul H...Grace works.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 01:07:32 AM by jabcat »
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Works
« Reply #490 on: March 10, 2009, 12:59:38 AM »
Tony, Grace doesn't increase the more we sin.  I believe you interpreting Romans 5:20 incorrectly.  Romans 5:20 is saying where sin abounded (which is in all of us via our Old Man) that Grace is NOW abounding (after we have access Grace) more.

Grace 'covers' sin. If there is more sin then more grace is needed to cover the sin.
In a sinless world no grace is needed.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #491 on: March 10, 2009, 01:05:10 AM »
The bottom line for me is that he is the author and perfecter (finisher) of our faith, which is the starting point of all of this. He is the beginning and the end. All things came from him and all things will return to him. If he starts it, and he finishes it, what's left for me to do? Nothing. It's all God working in and through us, until there is nothing left of the flesh, and it's all God there. How else do we think God is going to be all in all? "I live, yet it is no longer I, but Christ". Do we have choices to make? Certainly, but he works all according to his will, and works all things together for our good. Our job is not to do anything, but to be the vessel for God to live his life out through us. He will do his works in and through us

We can't even pretend to understand it all, because his thoughts are not our thoughts, nor his ways our ways. That is, until his thoughts become "our" thoughts, and his ways become "our" ways.  :cloud9:

Doc Holliday, here you go writing out my own thoughts again  :laughing7:... :thumbsup:.  We must be brothers separated at birth..maybe twins even..maybe that's why momma used to call me Roc(khead).  Just kidding, she was a good momma.

Tony, if God's grace didn't superceed, I'd be a dead duck.


Well, as far as I'm concerned James, we are brothers separated at birth.  :winkgrin: That goes for the rest of you here at tentmaker, too.  :thumbsup:
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #492 on: March 10, 2009, 01:31:02 AM »
Quote
Our job is not to do anything, but to be the vessel for God to live his life out through us. He will do his works in and through us

I think that would be ideal.  The priests carry the ark.  But for me, for now, he is with me, but he is other.

He's my friend.  We walk together.  Sometimes he tells me what to do, sometimes he doesn't.  But, he always protects me, and works the outcome for good.

I couldn't live without him.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #493 on: March 10, 2009, 01:43:54 AM »
Rom 5:20 Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds,

That would be present tense instead of the aorist tense which the Greek uses.

Paul


Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #494 on: March 10, 2009, 03:45:21 PM »
The bottom line for me is that he is the author and perfecter (finisher) of our faith, which is the starting point of all of this. He is the beginning and the end. All things came from him and all things will return to him. If he starts it, and he finishes it, what's left for me to do? Nothing. It's all God working in and through us, until there is nothing left of the flesh, and it's all God there. How else do we think God is going to be all in all? "I live, yet it is no longer I, but Christ". Do we have choices to make? Certainly, but he works all according to his will, and works all things together for our good. Our job is not to do anything, but to be the vessel for God to live his life out through us. He will do his works in and through us

We can't even pretend to understand it all, because his thoughts are not our thoughts, nor his ways our ways. That is, until his thoughts become "our" thoughts, and his ways become "our" ways.  :cloud9:

Doc Holliday, here you go writing out my own thoughts again  :laughing7:... :thumbsup:.  We must be brothers separated at birth..maybe twins even..maybe that's why momma used to call me Roc(khead).  Just kidding, she was a good momma.

Tony, if God's grace didn't superceed, I'd be a dead duck.


Yo, Jab,

Rom 6:1 What, then, shall we declare? That we may be persisting in sin that grace should be increasing?

I'm sure the Roman believers knew that when sin increases that grace superexceeds it. So they were wondering if they could just go out and sin all they want so that grace should be increasing. Paul said No to that. Nevertheless, the idea is there that if we do sin that grace does increase.

And "God is dealing graciously with all our offenses." Yes, we offend. But God doesn't hold over our heads the threat of damnation should we offend or sin. Rather He always works with us as a loving father in love and grace.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #495 on: March 10, 2009, 03:49:42 PM »
Rom 5:20 Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds,

That would be present tense instead of the aorist tense which the Greek uses.

Paul



My Greek text says it is verb_aorist_active_subjunctive for "increases" and for "superexceeds" verb_aorist_active_indicative. Aorist shows ongoingness. Some grammars state the aorist is a present tense.

Here is an excellent online Greek tool. It is free. You may have to subscribe. Plug in Romans 5:20 at the top right and it agrees with what my Greek text says concerning the two aformentioned words.
http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/main.do
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 04:39:52 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #496 on: March 10, 2009, 04:18:25 PM »

G5248  huperperisseuo  hoop-er-per-is-syoo'-o

from G5228 and G4052;

to super-abound:--abound much more, exceeding.



su⋅per⋅a⋅bound   /ˌsupərəˈbaʊnd/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [soo-per-uh-bound]  Show IPA
–verb (used without object) 1. to abound beyond something else.
2. to be very abundant or too abundant (usually fol. by in or with).


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Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #497 on: March 10, 2009, 05:18:57 PM »
The bottom line for me is that he is the author and perfecter (finisher) of our faith, which is the starting point of all of this. He is the beginning and the end. All things came from him and all things will return to him. If he starts it, and he finishes it, what's left for me to do? Nothing. It's all God working in and through us, until there is nothing left of the flesh, and it's all God there. How else do we think God is going to be all in all? "I live, yet it is no longer I, but Christ". Do we have choices to make? Certainly, but he works all according to his will, and works all things together for our good. Our job is not to do anything, but to be the vessel for God to live his life out through us. He will do his works in and through us

We can't even pretend to understand it all, because his thoughts are not our thoughts, nor his ways our ways. That is, until his thoughts become "our" thoughts, and his ways become "our" ways.  :cloud9:

Doc Holliday, here you go writing out my own thoughts again  :laughing7:... :thumbsup:.  We must be brothers separated at birth..maybe twins even..maybe that's why momma used to call me Roc(khead).  Just kidding, she was a good momma.

Tony, if God's grace didn't superceed, I'd be a dead duck.


Yo, Jab,

Rom 6:1 What, then, shall we declare? That we may be persisting in sin that grace should be increasing?

I'm sure the Roman believers knew that when sin increases that grace superexceeds it. So they were wondering if they could just go out and sin all they want so that grace should be increasing. Paul said No to that. Nevertheless, the idea is there that if we do sin that grace does increase.

And "God is dealing graciously with all our offenses." Yes, we offend. But God doesn't hold over our heads the threat of damnation should we offend or sin. Rather He always works with us as a loving father in love and grace.

For me, the person who thinks it's okay to live as you wish and grace will cover it . .. is the same who still doesn't understand that to live in that thinking is not pursuing Christ.  When I pursue Christ . . .when I just let him live in me . . . when I let him be in my DAILY thoughtlife, as well as my nightlife . . .when I read of him, worship to him, just ramble around with him . . .then the deeds in me that are subpar are covered by grace as I walk in him.  There's no need to try to step as he steps . . .if my eyes are on him, my feet will follow and I may even step in a cow pie occasionally . . .but both the Father and myself are oblivious to that because regardless of what I step in thorugh out my day, my relationship with him will continually wash me, cleanse me, and I don't even need to be always aware of it.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #498 on: March 10, 2009, 05:20:11 PM »


Pursue love and the rest falls into place.

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #499 on: March 10, 2009, 05:43:50 PM »


Pursue love and the rest falls into place.

AMEN.

i often think 1 cor 13 sums up christianity to a tee.  :boogie:

peace
euty
2