Works

[DaughterofDavid]

Hi Jabcat,

It is all His grace.

Even when we ask....it is His grace that empowers us to ask.....there is nothing that we can take credit for.... NOTHING....for it is ALL HIS WORK and we are His workmanship.

As I have read this thread it is clear to me that (trettep and pneuma) are speaking of 2 DIFFERENT kinds of works.
1.) The Works of The CHRIST
2.) The Works of the flesh

For me, I desire to do only those works that He desires to do THROUGH me. As I am joined to Him and BECOME one in Him....my mind is one with His mind....my heart is one with His heart.....my will is one with His will..... the outcome is that I will think His thoughts and have His motivation, will, heart, to accomplish what He desires to DO through my life in any given situation, circumstance, or with any individual that He brings into my life. (The BECOMING of course takes time....but He is always advancing and overcoming within us day by day as we submit to His Kingship and Lordship)....and once again it is only by His grace that we are able to submit.

As someone earlier said to Molly....the Good Work might even be doing nothing .....for He is the owner of ALL and His will for some might be to BE STILL....and even in that act of obedience there is much being accomplished within.

It really all comes down to obedience....and for one to have a heart to obey is all by HIS GRACE.
We can't take credit for ANYTHING....

What I hear you say....is something so beautiful.....and that is that you understand that there is nothing within you (your flesh) that can DO anything .....and that is also what I hear trettep saying too...it is only CHRIST IN YOU that can do.....and as you yield to Him this is what will bring forth the fruit of good 'works'....the yielding is a participation....and this is something I see that Father wants us all to be asking of Him is..."Father, please give us the grace TO YIELD to your workmanship that you are doing within us."
So be it.

Be blessed,
DaughterofDavid

[Molly]

....the yielding is a participation....and this is something I see that Father wants us all to be asking of Him is..."Father, please give us the grace TO YIELD to your workmanship that you are doing within us."

Yes, that's a great way of putting it, especially for those of us for whom that might not be so easy, depending, as we learned to do, on our own considerable resources for so long.  Yielding can be hard work, until we finally find that sweet spot where we are walking in his will and door after door opens up effortlessly.

Acts 16:26
And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

[jabcat]

Daughter and Mol  ...similar to my favorite terms, submitting and obeying...because then, in our weakness, He is strong, and then He works through us, not me trying to "force His hand"...

I was thinking some more about what trettep may be saying as well.  trettep, if you're saying what Daughter of David's post states, then we're probably talking about the same things, perhaps just speaking a little different language.  A reason I've continued to clarify though, including my last post, is a couple of comments you made earlier, one being "we have to work to access grace", and "that we work to stay saved".  To me, those may appear subtle, yet IMO, profound differences than this;  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God  Ephesians 2:8

God's blessing, James.

[trettep]

Hi Paul!

Oh! My precious brother, I want to thank you for all that you have shared on this topic....I have been RICHLY blessed!

This that you wrote says it so beautifully and POWERFULLY and clearly.....

"I think we need to put everyone's thoughts on works.  Those works of the Christ.  I think we need to Provoke them to do Good works:

Heb 10:24  and may we consider one another to provoke to love and to good works,

His works are those of Love.  We just need for everyone to ensure they are distinguish between which works they are to perform and which ones they are not to perform.  Those of Christ we are to perform.  Those of our flesh, we are not to perform." (trettep/Paul).
Thank you for spurring me on to know Him....for encouraging me to ask Him to perform His good works within me....thank you.

Be blessed my brother,
DaughterofDavid

DaughterofDavid, I'm very blessed if your blessed by our Lord Jesus Christ.  If so that this message is True then your then the enrichment you gained from it puts fruit on my branch to which I owe Jesus Christ OUR Savior all this wonderful Glory.

Paul

[trettep]

Paul, are you able, within yourself, your own strength, to do the works of Christ, those works of love?  You said earlier, if I understood you, that we must do a work to get saved, then work to stay saved.  I agree we do works, but I believe we are absolutely unable to do anything without His empowerment.  So IMO, there's sort of a paradox.  We work, we do His will as we submit to Him and walk each day to please Him...but in essence, it's not really us that's doing it...it's Him through us...IMO, we can take absolutely no credit for our obedience, love, or faith..it all proceeds from Him. 

I think your getting it Jebcat.  Jebcat, my works are filthy rags (ALWAYS).  I can't do what is Good because there is a copyright on works that are Good and the copyright holder is Jesus Christ.  So if I do what is Good then it is Him and not me that performs it.  So while I might still falter and my flesh gets an advantage as long as I continue in putting on Christ, I can be sure that Christ will continue to produce Good Works.  Please read the parable of the talents (pounds) to see that we are expected to increase.  We are not expected to be perfect the moment we begin putting Christ on.  But be sure that we are expected to be heading in the direction of perfection.

I do not deny we do works, but I do claim that when it's all said and done, we can take no credit, because our righteousness is as filthy rags, and it's in Him we live, move, have our being.

Can you take any credit for, and did/do you work for 1) having the faith to get saved, and 2) being able to do the right things to stay saved, because when I cut to the bottom of what I've understood you to say in the past few days, that's what I hear?  Maybe that's not what you mean, but I keep getting this overall sense that that's what you think.  Please let me know if I'm wrong about that.  Wouldn't be the first time.     James.

Were doing the actual Good works Jebcat but they are owned by Christ.  They are not our works.  Our works are of the flesh and as you have said they are as filthy rags.  I don't take any credit for any Good Works I do Jebcat (at least I'm trying more not to).  But as you can see if our Lord has come to destroy the works of Satan which is sin then if we continue in sin then Christ is not in us.  For where Christ is - is the putting down of sin.

Paul

[trettep]

Daughter and Mol  ...similar to my favorite terms, submitting and obeying...because then, in our weakness, He is strong, and then He works through us, not me trying to "force His hand"...

I was thinking some more about what trettep may be saying as well.  trettep, if you're saying what Daughter of David's post states, then we're probably talking about the same things, perhaps just speaking a little different language.  A reason I've continued to clarify though, including my last post, is a couple of comments you made earlier, one being "we have to work to access grace", and "that we work to stay saved".  To me, those may appear subtle, yet IMO, profound differences than this;  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God  Ephesians 2:8

God's blessing, James.

Yes Jebcat, I understand those things might be confusing but even though I might have knowledge in this regard (by the Grace of God), your edifying me, by telling me what you understand and don't understand to help me be more able to administer this message towards others.  Be please to know Jebcat, that the works that I say that we must do are those of Christ not our own works.  We must perform His works to remain in Grace.  Faith + Works is access to Grace.  The moment that is exercised your in Grace, and then you must continue to GROW in Grace and that is done by continuing in saving Faith (Faith plus His works).

Paul

[jabcat]

Hi Paul.  What do you think I'm getting?  Getting a clearer picture of how you see it, or getting how I need to understand it?  

Yes, I absolutely agree with this quote too; "But as you can see if our Lord has come to destroy the works of Satan which is sin then if we continue in sin then Christ is not in us.  For where Christ is - is the putting down of sin."   Christ doing the work, through a submitted vessel that for some reason beyond me, He has chosen with which to do it.

God's blessing, James.

 

[trettep]

Hi Paul.  What do you think I'm getting?  Getting a clearer picture of how you see it, or getting how I need to understand it?  

Yes, I absolutely agree with this quote too; "But as you can see if our Lord has come to destroy the works of Satan which is sin then if we continue in sin then Christ is not in us.  For where Christ is - is the putting down of sin."   Christ doing the work, through a submitted vessel that for some reason beyond me, He has chosen with which to do it.

God's blessing, James.

Jebcat, when I say your getting it - I believe it means your understanding what Christ has communicated.  I may have delivered some of that message but those in Christ are not divided.  We are all eventually going to be of one mind - that of Christ Jesus.  The Lord's hasn't perfected me yet.  If I'm sounding to arrogant in what I'm saying or making it sound like this message is my own personal message then please let me know and what you think I can do to not come across like that.

Paul

[Cardinal]

For me, I desire to do only those works that He desires to do THROUGH me. As I am joined to Him and BECOME one in Him....my mind is one with His mind....my heart is one with His heart.....my will is one with His will..... the outcome is that I will think His thoughts and have His motivation, will, heart, to accomplish what He desires to DO through my life in any given situation, circumstance, or with any individual that He brings into my life. (The BECOMING of course takes time....but He is always advancing and overcoming within us day by day as we submit to His Kingship and Lordship)....and once again it is only by His grace that we are able to submit.

  Amen 

[jabcat]

Brother Paul, I'm going to be honest with you (maybe I'm your iron to sharpen your iron  ).  We may both benefit from this in how we present our beliefs, and perhaps also clarify in our own minds just what those are  .

So first of all, that's what I wondered, if you were saying I was finally learning.  I may be a little slow, but come on  .  Now mind you, hopefully I am learning and will continue to learn of Him, but if you'll notice, I don't think I've changed anything I've said since the beginning of this conversation.  What I've been doing is "pushing" you to clarify if you think you/we work for our salvation or not.  So, honestly brother, here's the thing with that; it did sound that it could have been a little arrogant to me, or at least a bit presumptuous...I can't judge you though...I can be overly sensitive and take things too personally (things for God to help me work on ME about), so you decide between you and God...you know your heart. 

So, the following quote, as I see things right now, sound at least somewhat contradictory statements...quote "works we must do are those of Christ not our own works.  We must perform His works to remain in Grace."  Again, maybe you're speaking a sophisticated evangelical dialect and I'm speaking southern Missouri Bapticostal...

So if you're of a mind, perhaps explain what you mean that you perform, but Christ has them copyrighted...how that works in your life...and if it dovetails at all with my saying any works I do is by His strength in me...the need to submit/obey, seeking to do His will, yes, but needing His help every step of the way...I ain't sayin' I'm good at it, I'm just sayin' that's what I believe.  

A man's heart plans his course, but Yahweh directs his steps. Pr. 16:9

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

God's blessing, James.

[Zeek]

James/jabcat

Do you think one can fall from grace?  if so how??

[jabcat]

Well, a quick answer, without thinking about it for 30 minutes and checking scripture, I understand a "fall from grace", according to Ap. Paul,  to be going back to depending on works, especially works of the Law to attain grace and righteousness that Jesus provided us on the cross.  I believe in the perseverance of the saints, that who God chooses, He is and will be the Author and Finisher of their faith. 

[Zeek]

Well, a quick answer, without thinking about it for 30 minutes and checking scripture, I understand a "fall from grace", according to Ap. Paul,  to be going back to depending on works, especially works of the Law to attain grace and righteousness that Jesus provided us on the cross.  I believe in the perseverance of the saints, that who God chooses, He is and will be the Author and Finisher of their faith. 

So if one falls from grace, is that God working in man to lose faith??

in other words, who is the one that falls from grace?  Christ working in man, or man alone??

[jabcat]

I've answered a question, and I'll answer more.  But let's play this fairly.  Do you believe you can please God alone?

[Zeek]

I've answered a question, and I'll answer more.  But let's play this fairly.  Do you believe you can please God alone?

no

[Zeek]

For me, this whole idea of works is related to if one has "been enlightened: (Heb 6, 2 peter 2:20).

Once enlightened, given knowledge, eyes opened to the LOVE of the FATHER through Christ Jesus.  I believe we have a will, a will that now has "awareness/knowledge" of choice:

a choice to surrender our will/spirit to the father and through the Holy Spirit produce HIS works;

or

a choice/will to turn away from LOVE, and turn back to "denying HIM" through law sacrifice. 



So I see the will/choice as our doings; and the fruit produced from it as the result of HIM working in me,

or the fruit being from the choice to turn away.



For me, without making this a free will argument; an enlightened person, now has will/choice to surrender to the Father and HIM work through us

or

Puff up and turn away. 


 

[jabcat]

I don't have disagreements with most of that, without getting into a "free will" discussion, which we won't do.

Although I admittedly can't fully explain this, have never claimed I could, and certainly can't fully understand God's ways (why He does what He does);  God is not responsible for my sin, I am;  however, I don't believe I can (especially alone) make all the right choices to justify His grace/unmerited favor.  Simply, I agree God requires us to make choices, as part of His growing us.  But since each breath I take is through His strength, then each "good" deed I may do is through His strength.  I can take no credit for it.

So, since you asked, I believe I'm responsible for my sins and receive said judgment, and that God is responsible for goodness (even if He empowers me to do some) and should get all praise.  Not good at it, but it's how I understand it.

[jabcat]

I also believe He expects submission and obedience, but I have to have His strength to do it.  Do I believe we are required to seek to do His will?  Yes, but I believe that's only possible in the Spirit, as it works through and empowers me; because if I could have pleased Him on my own, He wouldn't have needed to send me His precious Son.

I've been wrong about many things, but I'd be surprised, taken strictly as simply worded, if that would be an issue among believers  .  If it is, then it's probably time for me to back out of this and let better scholars than I wrestle with it.  I've so related to Peter, when he spoke those profound words;  "I go a'fishing."

[Zeek]

God is not responsible for my sin, I am;  however, I don't believe I can (especially alone) make all the right choices to justify His grace/unmerited favor. 

So is it possible that works by grace via faith our due to man's "will" to first have chosen this path (after enlightened) but once chosen; God through Christ works through you to produce good fruit.

and it is man's "will", to decide to reject the "faith" and turn back to law; and hence produce "self righteous works"


So, in this sense, to me; man  who has tasted the good things of the Lord, is responsible for whether he "stays in grace", or whether he "turns away from it."

But only if he first has had his eyes opened to the Truth, which i believe is all God's doings.  


i'ts late, and i'm just thinking out loud.  

interesting stuff.

[Zeek]

I also believe He expects submission and obedience, but I have to have His strength to do it.

I don't know about that; Is it possible that with "enlightened" eyes, we can choose with our "will" to submit or obey

or


we can choose to turn away with our "will". 



?? 

off to bed. 


good night

[jabcat]

nighty night...another day.  God's blessing.

[jabcat]

Anyway, you're probably asking questions Origen and Billy Graham would argue over, and you're talking to me about it?

With my limited understanding, God is good, I'm not.  I try to please Him, but I sure need His help.

[jabcat]

I'm going to own something here...I started this thread, and have probably been more involved in it than any other.  So I want to share a couple of things.

I spent my formative years in/and affected by a church community environment of, if you get saved, OK, but guess what?  Now you have to; stop smoking (or go to hell), not take one sip of beer or wine (or go to hell), men not wear your hair over your ears (or go to hell), women don't wear pants (or go to hell), don't say darn, much less, you know, the other 'd' word (or go to hell), don't listen to rock n roll (or go to hell), don't watch TV (or go to hell), absolutely don't go to a movie (or go to hell), don't dance (or go to hell), pray often enough or (lose your salvation and, you guess it, go to hell), stay as close to God "as you're supposed to" (or go to hell), don't think like that (or go to hell), read your Bible enough, love God enough, or "stay on fire for God enough" (or you'll be spewed out of His mouth and...go to hell), get baptized by immersion and with the correct words said over you (or go to hell), get saved at an altar on your knees, crying..there has to be crying or you're not saved (or go to hell)...

You probably get the picture.  Sparing some details, God led me into a loving, supportive, forgiving, grace-teaching Baptist fellowship and dear old pastor, and married to a precious wife (of which I am unworthy) of the same persuasion.  He did a lot of healing of my wounded heart and spirit while sitting in that Baptist pew.  I began to learn and believe that maybe, just maybe, God really did love me.  Maybe, just maybe, I didn't have to fear that any move, any thought, any mis-step wouldn't cause Him to hate me and rain down His wrath upon me.  That maybe, even when I failed Him and my dear wife miserably, that He wouldn't cut me off forever and send me to Hell..that He wouldn't punish me by taking the life of my child...that maybe, I could really believe that He could forgive me and still accept me.  That He wouldn't destroy me in His anger and burn me forever.    Based on...guess what?  Not my good works.  Not all those things I'd been taught I had to do exactly right, exactly all the time. 

But..because..He..loved me..because..He..did..something..on..the..cross..I..was..and..am..unable..to..do..myself.  Because He is good and righteous...because He's big enough, and powerful enough, and sufficient enough, and worthy enough..to lift me up;  to set me in His presence, to begin to heal me again, to reassure me that even when I failed Him, He still loves me.  And that He'll pick me up, brush me off, take my hand, and say "come on son, this way...I've got you...I'm holding onto you...I won't let you, any man, any devil, take you out of My hand.  I didn't save you so that would happen.  I have plans for you, and they are good. I'm strong enough, and I know how to finish in you what I've started".  Thank you, Jesus.

So if I seem to struggle with this topic, I do.  If I seem to be very on guard of even thinking I'm being told I have to somehow work hard enough, be good enough, measure up enough, to please Him and be accepted by Him and not cut off from and tortured by Him...then please forgive me, as I try to be obedient to His will...while knowing I must lean on and depend on Him for every breath...because I've lived being unable to "measure up" and having to learn (still learning) to lean on, count on, depend on Him.

This is my walk with Him, and He knows how to finish my salvation.  Your walk may be different, but He also knows exactly what to do with yours.  He knows your name.

I just felt I wanted to share this tonight.

God's blessing, James.

[Raggedy Anne]

James -

So glad to have read some of your personal story.  I think most people who come here can relate to this.   I've been to all manner of churches throughout my life and spent a good portion of my life terrified of God and convinced that he hated me because I was such a miserable sinner.   It sure was a heavy yoke of bondage I stayed in for so many years. 

My faith struggles have changed to other things.  For example, I began to question in my mind in summer '07, "What if God is not real?".  I was very reluctant to share this with anyone at the time it happened because there had never been a time in my life when I questioned his realness - it was always his nature I'd questioned.   The reason I'd never questioned God's existence was because somehow when I was a toddler (perhaps age 3) I had an experience alone with God of being awestruck by the realization that GOD IS.  I'll never forget it.  You'd think that I would have also concluded that GOD IS GOOD.  But due to childhood experiences, I did not know if God was good, or rather, whether he would be good to me.  I must say, I found it shocking to have that question pop into my mind in summer '07 in a serious nagging way.  It upset me deeply.  But I was quickly delivered from it.  When it happened, I just thought - wow - Satan never gives up on trying to torment our minds - whomever Satan is.  Faith is something we must fight for - it is akin to treading water it seems.    My main conclusion to the "what if God is not real" question was that if God is not real, then nothing is real and everything is meaningless which was the same way I felt when I believed eternal torment could be God's divine plan of the ages.   Life and love are much too glorious for either to be the case.

Goodnight and God bless you -
Anne

[trettep]

Brother Paul, I'm going to be honest with you (maybe I'm your iron to sharpen your iron  ).  We may both benefit from this in how we present our beliefs, and perhaps also clarify in our own minds just what those are  .

So first of all, that's what I wondered, if you were saying I was finally learning.  I may be a little slow, but come on  .  Now mind you, hopefully I am learning and will continue to learn of Him, but if you'll notice, I don't think I've changed anything I've said since the beginning of this conversation.  What I've been doing is "pushing" you to clarify if you think you/we work for our salvation or not.  So, honestly brother, here's the thing with that; it did sound that it could have been a little arrogant to me, or at least a bit presumptuous...I can't judge you though...I can be overly sensitive and take things too personally (things for God to help me work on ME about), so you decide between you and God...you know your heart. 

So, the following quote, as I see things right now, sound at least somewhat contradictory statements...quote "works we must do are those of Christ not our own works.  We must perform His works to remain in Grace."  Again, maybe you're speaking a sophisticated evangelical dialect and I'm speaking southern Missouri Bapticostal...

So if you're of a mind, perhaps explain what you mean that you perform, but Christ has them copyrighted...how that works in your life...and if it dovetails at all with my saying any works I do is by His strength in me...the need to submit/obey, seeking to do His will, yes, but needing His help every step of the way...I ain't sayin' I'm good at it, I'm just sayin' that's what I believe.  

A man's heart plans his course, but Yahweh directs his steps. Pr. 16:9

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

God's blessing, James.

Hi James,

Let's consider Romans 11:6 since you quoted above.  The "works" in that verse are a reference to OUR works, and not His works.  Now OUR works are works that originate in the nature of man (the flesh).  When we have Christ, we will be performing His works.  He still owns them yet we are performing them.  Don't think that because we are performing the works of Christ that it somehow means they are OUR works.  They are still His works.  We perform those works.  Often times, I find others that believe they have Christ but do not do as Christ does.  I have even questioned a work that someone did as to say was that the work of Christ or your own only to be told that Christ was working ON them and they don't rely on works they perform.  This is why I often classify those that claim to be Christians as two different types.  Those that believe they are saved BECAUSE of Jesus and those that believe they are saved BY Jesus.  The latter is my belief.  The scriptures make it clear that Jesus is going to check for fruit of the branch.  That fruit is the works that we have performed but are a reference to His works since it is a reference to a branch that is in the vine (Christ).  When we perform LOVE - we perform the works of Christ.

Paul