Author Topic: Works  (Read 83766 times)

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Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #400 on: March 07, 2009, 05:14:16 AM »
right, i agree.  I thot Paul was saying one couldnt' be saved without works of the Spirit.  But in those verses, one can be saved, through destruction of the "works of the flesh", there is nothing in those verses about being saved by works of the Spirit.  

One pathway (narrow) produces works of Christ and reward, no shame.

and

other pathway (broad) results in savlation but no reward, left desolate, naked, shamed.  

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Zeek, I believe that God will ultimately save everyone.  Now to what happens to those that continued in their fleshy ways - willfully sinning?  I believe they will experience the Wrath of God.  But ultimately they too shall be saved.  But the  parable of the unforgiving servant shows that the servant was tormented UNTIL his debt was paid.

Paul

thank you. I believe this too. 


trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #401 on: March 07, 2009, 05:16:32 AM »
Hi Paul.  OK, then it's that last line that I don't see that way, if I'm understanding you.  Directly, how do you believe we "access grace with those good works"?  Maybe you're not saying it, but it sounds to me like you're saying we have to act first, and know how to act in our own works, to initially get that grace, i.e., get saved....Simply, when you believed, did you do it, or did God give you that faith to believe?  In other words, was it your work or His?  Again, I don't know if semantics are getting us, or if there's a deeper meaning, and that's what I'm trying to clarify.  Thanks, James.

The reference to accessing the Grace via Faith is mentioned here:

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

As I said before, all GOOD works are copyright owned by Christ Jesus.  We may be performing them but they are His.  The MOMENT we have Faith demonstrated with His Works through us is when I believe we have accessed Grace.  We continue to perform Good works because Jesus is at work putting down sin in our flesh at that point by His very nature.   His works are Love.

Paul

« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 05:31:50 AM by jabcat »

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #402 on: March 07, 2009, 05:18:50 AM »
ah, and I just more clearly see you are saying we work to stay saved...no matter the motivation, bottom line, that it's our effort that keeps us saved?

We're doing the effort but it isn't our effort.  That effort belongs to Christ.  He gets the glory for the Good Works done.  He is the copyright holder to all Good Works that man does.  Remember our works are like filthy rags.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #403 on: March 07, 2009, 05:21:38 AM »
thank you. I believe this too. 



Thanks Zeek, ask questions and if I can answer them I will or tell you that I don't know or try to help in some way.  I have learned a lot of others here since I joined especially about how to deliver this message and that is a tremendous help in producing fruit.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #404 on: March 07, 2009, 05:24:48 AM »
thank you. I believe this too. 



Thanks Zeek, ask questions and if I can answer them I will or tell you that I don't know or try to help in some way.  I have learned a lot of others here since I joined especially about how to deliver this message and that is a tremendous help in producing fruit.

Paul
Can you or someone answer this question?

How do you know you are doing what God wants you to do? 

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #405 on: March 07, 2009, 05:32:26 AM »
Hi Paul.  OK, then it's that last line that I don't see that way, if I'm understanding you.  Directly, how do you believe we "access grace with those good works"?  Maybe you're not saying it, but it sounds to me like you're saying we have to act first, and know how to act in our own works, to initially get that grace, i.e., get saved....Simply, when you believed, did you do it, or did God give you that faith to believe?  In other words, was it your work or His?  Again, I don't know if semantics are getting us, or if there's a deeper meaning, and that's what I'm trying to clarify.  Thanks, James.

The reference to accessing the Grace via Faith is mentioned here:

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

As I said before, all GOOD works are copyright owned by Christ Jesus.  We may be performing them but they are His.  The MOMENT we have Faith demonstrated with His Works through us is when I believe we have accessed Grace.  We continue to perform Good works because Jesus is at work putting down sin in our flesh at that point by His very nature.   His works are Love.

Paul

OK, hang onto that one  :laughing7:.  This one I understand and agree with...IMO, it's the "BY WHOM" part of this verse that's key  :thumbsup:            (no modification to your post..I'm having a bad button night   :sigh:)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 05:34:30 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #406 on: March 07, 2009, 05:33:19 AM »
Can you or someone answer this question?

How do you know you are doing what God wants you to do? 

1Jn 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Do as the Lord instructed us:

Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mat 19:17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Rom 13:10  Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.  

Paul

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #407 on: March 07, 2009, 05:42:02 AM »
Part of this is me working through this, based on my background, etc.  I started the thread  :mblush:.  So, I'm still having misgivings about us working to stay saved.  In brief, I understand it more that He saves us and then He keeps us...He empowers us to be His sons...that once chosen, He won't let us become "unsaved"...we certainly may have judgment and things to pay various amounts of stripes for, but as a son...I believe (rightly or wrongly) that we are still chosen, not become bastards by us, at some point along the way, becoming unable to perform righteous works enough to maintain our own salvation.  In essence, that He won't let that happen, His grace supercedes our frailty.  Perhaps "no man can pluck them out of My hand" includes me (as "no man")....what do you think?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 05:43:37 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #408 on: March 07, 2009, 05:54:15 AM »
1Co 10:1  Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

1Co 10:2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1Co 10:3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1Co 10:5  But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

1Co 10:6  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

1Co 10:7  Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

1Co 10:8  Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

1Co 10:9  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

1Co 10:10  Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1Co 10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1Co 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1Co 10:14  Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.


1Co 10:21  Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
 

Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #409 on: March 07, 2009, 05:57:29 AM »
1Ti 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1Ti 6:11  But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

1Ti 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

1Ti 6:18  That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
 
1Ti 6:19  Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. [/b]
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 06:02:17 AM by Zeek »

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #410 on: March 07, 2009, 06:32:03 AM »
Quote
1Jn 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


"keepeth"
G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.


[his] "word"

G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 06:36:40 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #411 on: March 07, 2009, 06:47:56 AM »
47When evening came, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on land. 48He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. About the fourth watch of the night he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them, 49but when they saw him walking on the lake, they thought he was a ghost. They cried out, 50because they all saw him and were terrified.

   Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." 51Then he climbed into the boat with them, and the wind died down. They were completely amazed, 52for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened.

---Mark 6

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #412 on: March 07, 2009, 06:48:53 AM »
that Rock was Christ.

Amen.  I believe all scripture must reconcile, and do, when taken in total context.  Here's some more to add to the context;

"…we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified…"

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Ephesians 1:4 KJV
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:1-2 KJV

Jeremiah 29:11

11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.


« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 06:52:45 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #413 on: March 07, 2009, 06:58:56 AM »
Quote
"…we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified…"

well, because we cannot do works of the law without him, otherwise we would be like the Pharisees, full of dead men's bones, trying to rely on ourselves and failing.

That is not to say that with him we are not doing works of the law, right?

We are, we should be--



John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Deuteronomy 5:10
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.



Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #414 on: March 07, 2009, 07:01:15 AM »
Yes, I believe so Molly.  I had typed the following up, then saw your post.


So, in summary for me, at this moment...yes there are works, but they are only done by Him through me...yes I need to yield, present myself a living sacrifice...but it's in Him I live, move, have my being.  The whole of scripture gives the bigger picture.  Maybe I'll keep understanding more about this, but as for me, this is my hope;

"my hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus' love and righteousness
I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name
On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand,
all other ground is sinking sand"

Here's the bottom line for me...whether one thinks they can keep themself saved with their own works, or whether one totally leans on Jesus and the works occur from the inside out, God is working all according to His will, and He wills that all be saved.  Glory to His name.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #415 on: March 07, 2009, 07:04:30 AM »
Quote from: Jab
So, in summary for me, at this moment...yes there are works, but they are only done by Him through me...

Yes, otherwise we are like the disciples with the hardened hearts rowing against the wind and screaming in terror when Jesus approaches them--they didn't recognize him.

But, when he climbed in the boat with them, the wind died down and the lake became calm...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #416 on: March 07, 2009, 07:06:45 AM »
very nice point...i didn't see that when you first posted it....i've rowed plenty, trusting that by my works i could gain His acceptance, and keep out of hell...if anyone thinks that works, IMO, they just haven't done it long enough yet...
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #417 on: March 07, 2009, 07:08:16 AM »
very nice point...i didn't see that when you first posted it....i've rowed plenty, trusting that by my works i could gain His acceptance, and keep out of hell...if anyone thinks that works, IMO, they just haven't done it long enough yet...
I've literally rowed against the wind.  You don't go anywhere. lol  (and it's hard work).
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 07:09:56 AM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #418 on: March 07, 2009, 07:12:35 AM »
Yes (rowed), no (didn't get anywhere), and yes (made me tired...VERY tired)!  :happy3:

 There's a lot I could go into about my upbringing, my life, and I don't take this topic lightly.  And, I'm not willing to just accept someone else's view of it as the truth.  For me personally, it's caused too many tears, too much heartache, too many failures and disappointments, thinking I could do it either my way, or in my own strength.  I don't think we can take one or two scriptures and make a case for such a huge issue as this...it's a Genesis to Revelation, full context, rightly divided issue. 

There are whole denominational and ideologically entrenched stances that span down through the centuries...the Arminian/Calvinist (Baptist/Presbyterian) groups, who maintain salvation is a gift, and the continuance of our salvation is the same/nothing in our strength, every good work is God-ordained, established and transpired through us, not BY us.....pitted against much of the rest of Christendom, that says "you better live right or you'll go to hell".  To let a little of my years and years of frustration out here, if anyone thinks you've got the ability in yourself to live right, then let's see it...I've tried it, and as you say, Molly, the Pharisee and Sadducee spirit manifested itself time and again.  I believe we are to "walk humbly before our God", and "look to Him, the Author AND Finisher of our faith".

« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 07:58:35 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #419 on: March 07, 2009, 07:21:29 AM »
56And whithersoever he entered, into villages, or cities, or country, they laid the sick in the streets, and besought him that they might touch if it were but the border of his garment: and as many as touched him were made whole.

--Mark 6


[as many as] "touched" [him]

G680
ἅπτομαι
haptomai
hap'-tom-ahee
Reflexive of G681; properly to attach oneself to, that is, to touch (in many implied relations): - touch.

G681
ἅπτω
haptō
hap'-to
A primary verb; properly to fasten to, that is, (specifically) to set on fire: - kindle, light.




[were made] "whole"

G4982
σώζω
sōzō
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.




Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #420 on: March 07, 2009, 08:26:36 AM »

I'm giving the definition of what the doctrine of the Nicolaitans was. You seem to be saying it's something completely different. The doctrine of the Nicolaitans had nothing to do with works, at least not in the context you're talking about.



Not to jump in for Jab here, but it's exactly the reverse, Paul. We receive grace so that we CAN obey...

Doc, let's do this.  Let's start another thread on the Nicolaitans and we can present our sources.  As to getting it in reverse then that would include the Apostles Paul - surely you don't believe that.  It was Paul that tells us that Faith is the access to Grace.   

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Paul

Ok, but we weren't talking about faith and grace. We were talking about what comes first, obedience or grace.
We receive grace through faith (which does not originate with us), then we "have what it takes" to obey.

And as to starting a thread on Nicolaitans; no thank you. I don't want to get into a petty squabble over "this source says this" vs. "that source says that". It's pointless.

And frankly, I don't really care who you cite as a source anyway; your definition of nicolaitanism doesn't make any sense, spiritually speaking.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #421 on: March 07, 2009, 08:30:41 AM »

We were talking about what comes first, obedience or grace.
We receive grace through faith (which does not originate with us), then we "have what it takes" to obey.

Amen...Jesus (All dwells in Him) + nothing else  :thumbsup:.  Anything that's good, anything that's righteous, proceeds from/through/because of Him...the Rock of Our Salvation, the Cornerstone that the builders rejected, the Author and Finisher!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 08:34:32 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #422 on: March 07, 2009, 09:16:06 AM »
Thanks, Jab...

And now that I've read a bit more of this thread, I do understand more of where Paul (trettep) is coming from. The wording used is confusing at times, hence the seven pages of clarifying posts since I checked the thread last night.  :laughing7:


Anyway, Paul... I think I understand where you're coming from now (And I do actually agree with a lot of what you were saying while you were clarifying your position), but there is just a little something about the way you're saying certain things that is a little unsettling to me. Could just be a question of semantics, though.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #423 on: March 07, 2009, 09:20:20 AM »
That's what I was pestering Paul about, too  :icon_joker:.  I.e., do you think you keep yourself saved by your works, or that Jesus keeps us saved by His works through us..what I call "Him empowering us to do His will"?  I'm still not sure I exactly know where Paul stands on that...I will tell you one thing though...I personally can't keep myself saved...I submit myself, present myself to Him (which again, He helps me do), and He helps me learn a little more daily how to do His will...but I can't do it without Him...

People I see that think they have some sort of power within themselves to "please God", IMO, often tend to be the ones that are the most judgmental, divisive, and don't make for the family members most likely to break bread with....I've been (and still sometimes are) one...they say it takes one to know one  :sigh:
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 09:27:19 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #424 on: March 07, 2009, 09:26:09 AM »
That's what I was pestering Paul about, too  :icon_joker:.  I.e., do you think you keep yourself saved by your works, or that Jesus keep us saved by His works through us..what I call "Him empowering us to do His will"?  I'm still not sure I exactly know where Paul stands on that...I will tell you one thing though...I personally can't keep myself saved...I submit myself, present myself to Him (which again, He helps me do), and He helps me learn a little more daily how to do His will...but I can't do it without Him...



Amen, Jab.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur