Author Topic: Works  (Read 94333 times)

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pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #375 on: March 07, 2009, 02:54:37 AM »
Hi Paul yes I agree that it should start right away, but alas that's not always the case for Paul sates

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.  14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.   
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,  2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit
Paul is does not say they are not saved who only drink the milk, but he encourages those who still drink milk to go on to perfection. And that is what we are to do also for babes in Christ.

This is brought out more forcefully when we read what Paul said here

 1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?   4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Paul still called these babes his brethren even though he knew that they were still not able to eat meat. Babes are saved but have need of teaching that they might grow some teeth and be then able to eat the meat. There is a growing process in Christ no one starts as an adult.   

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #376 on: March 07, 2009, 02:54:47 AM »

Paul can answer for himself Card, but IMO, what I see is the difference between "working to stay a child of God and not of the devil (what use is grace)", and "doing the obedient works of a son as God grows us (grace still intact)".  

 :cloud9: Sorry Jab, just trying to help.... :mblush:

« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 02:57:15 AM by jabcat »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #377 on: March 07, 2009, 02:57:50 AM »
sorry, hit the wrong button again...modify instead of quote... :doh:

You don't have to apologize to me you silly dear one....I can talk with you honestly without it being a "rub"...we don't need to argue or prove we know more than each other...because I already know you know more than me  :laughing7:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #378 on: March 07, 2009, 02:58:27 AM »
OK, I see what you're saying, and I agree, we need to be obedient (I would add, with His empowerment through us)...following onward, do you believe if we don't "remain in righteousness", we lose our salvation, are no longer saved?  My understanding is, our works can't "keep us saved"...begun in Spirit, then not staying saved by flesh.  Thanks, James.

Well I believe the works DO keep you saved, hence the need to endure unto the end.  I believe the scriptures show that if after you have received Good Works that you are to increase in them.  If you do not then what you had is taken away.  Consider the parable of the pounds (talents).

Paul

Hi Paul, how do you see this verse??

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


how can he be saved, if his works were burned up (1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble

1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #379 on: March 07, 2009, 03:01:04 AM »
Hi Paul yes I agree that it should start right away, but alas that's not always the case for Paul sates

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.  14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.   
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,  2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit
Paul is does not say they are not saved who only drink the milk, but he encourages those who still drink milk to go on to perfection. And that is what we are to do also for babes in Christ.

This is brought out more forcefully when we read what Paul said here

 1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?   4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Paul still called these babes his brethren even though he knew that they were still not able to eat meat. Babes are saved but have need of teaching that they might grow some teeth and be then able to eat the meat. There is a growing process in Christ no one starts as an adult.   

and thenTake Hebrew Scott.By Now you should be as Teachers,..BUT again..

What you just wrote I wrote earlier, then binned it...but Just added hebrews to it..its a Cycle and a Progression
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #380 on: March 07, 2009, 03:01:14 AM »
OK, I see what you're saying, and I agree, we need to be obedient (I would add, with His empowerment through us)...following onward, do you believe if we don't "remain in righteousness", we lose our salvation, are no longer saved?  My understanding is, our works can't "keep us saved"...begun in Spirit, then not staying saved by flesh.  Thanks, James.

Well I believe the works DO keep you saved, hence the need to endure unto the end.  I believe the scriptures show that if after you have received Good Works that you are to increase in them.  If you do not then what you had is taken away.  Consider the parable of the pounds (talents).

Paul

Hi Paul, how do you see this verse??

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


how can he be saved, if his works were burned up (1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble

1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.



Zeek two different types of works are being spoken of in those scriptures, the works that are burnt up are work of the flesh the works that are not burnt up are works of the spirit.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #381 on: March 07, 2009, 03:03:53 AM »
That why is say the fire will try every man's work of what sort it is.


Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #382 on: March 07, 2009, 03:04:41 AM »
sorry, hit the wrong button again...modify instead of quote... :doh:

You don't have to apologize to me you silly dear one....I can talk with you honestly without it being a "rub"...we don't need to argue or prove we know more than each other...because I already know you know more than me  :laughing7:
James
I do it all the Time bud............ :sigh:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #383 on: March 07, 2009, 03:05:29 AM »
OK, I see what you're saying, and I agree, we need to be obedient (I would add, with His empowerment through us)...following onward, do you believe if we don't "remain in righteousness", we lose our salvation, are no longer saved?  My understanding is, our works can't "keep us saved"...begun in Spirit, then not staying saved by flesh.  Thanks, James.

Well I believe the works DO keep you saved, hence the need to endure unto the end.  I believe the scriptures show that if after you have received Good Works that you are to increase in them.  If you do not then what you had is taken away.  Consider the parable of the pounds (talents).

Paul

Hi Paul, how do you see this verse??

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


how can he be saved, if his works were burned up (1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble

1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.



Zeek two different types of works are being spoken of in those scriptures, the works that are burnt up are work of the flesh the works that are not burnt up are works of the spirit.

right, i agree.  I thot Paul was saying one couldnt' be saved without works of the Spirit.  But in those verses, one can be saved, through destruction of the "works of the flesh", there is nothing in those verses about being saved by works of the Spirit.  

One pathway (narrow) produces works of Christ and reward, no shame.

and

other pathway (broad) results in savlation but no reward, left desolate, naked, shamed.  

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #384 on: March 07, 2009, 03:06:21 AM »
sorry, hit the wrong button again...modify instead of quote... :doh:

You don't have to apologize to me you silly dear one....I can talk with you honestly without it being a "rub"...we don't need to argue or prove we know more than each other...because I already know you know more than me  :laughing7:
James
I do it all the Time bud............ :sigh:

sheesh...you must be quicker at catching it than me...maybe more practice  :laughing7:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #385 on: March 07, 2009, 03:11:28 AM »
:cloud9: As a side note..... Noah found grace in God's eyes, yet he still had to work to build an ark. We too are working to build an ark, as we are obedient to apply whatever is quickened to us, ie. we are putting on Christ, the new ark that will raise us up above the waters of judgment (death contained in the law/letter). Blessings....
So, Noah didn't rush out to feed the poor--he did what God directed him to do.

Is that what works is?  For each of us, it might be something different?

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #386 on: March 07, 2009, 03:13:26 AM »
:cloud9: As a side note..... Noah found grace in God's eyes, yet he still had to work to build an ark. We too are working to build an ark, as we are obedient to apply whatever is quickened to us, ie. we are putting on Christ, the new ark that will raise us up above the waters of judgment (death contained in the law/letter). Blessings....
So, Noah didn't rush out to feed the poor--he did what God directed him to do.

Is that what works is?  For each of us, it might be something different?

Hi Molly do whatever God tells you to do, if He tells you to do nothing that still doing His work, it is all in what He says for you to do.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #387 on: March 07, 2009, 03:15:12 AM »
 :cloud9: Amen pneuma.... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #388 on: March 07, 2009, 03:18:31 AM »
sorry, hit the wrong button again...modify instead of quote... :doh:

You don't have to apologize to me you silly dear one....I can talk with you honestly without it being a "rub"...we don't need to argue or prove we know more than each other...because I already know you know more than me  :laughing7:

 :cloud9: Oh ok, I thought you were politely telling me to "butt out" , LOL....and somehow I doubt that (last comment). Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #389 on: March 07, 2009, 03:27:46 AM »
I wasn't say that at all, trying to let you and Paul see how I was seeing it...these discussion boards would be great, if it wasn't for the need to communicate  :happy3:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #390 on: March 07, 2009, 03:29:23 AM »
If we don't consider the evangels of the circumcision and uncircumcision, rightly cutting the Word, how is this scripture reconciled with working to keep salvation?  "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" 

Jab you are mixing up the letter of the law which has no life in it with the spiritual law

I will consider your opinion. Thanks.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #391 on: March 07, 2009, 04:24:22 AM »
Thanks Paul, so you're NOT saying we work to stay saved.

OK, so at the risk of sounding too simplistic here...isn't everyone basically saying we're saved by grace, then God empowers us to do His will?  It seems like we're majoring in semantics, and minoring in Jesus' death, resurrection, and life in and through us.   :dontknow:

Well, we do but it isn't the motivation.  The motivation is to perform His will.  Yes we are saved by Grace.  And it is the Grace that is attracting us towards Faith and Good Works but it isn't until we have that Faith and Good Works that we can access that Grace.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #392 on: March 07, 2009, 04:27:05 AM »
And if we can then get beyond that, isn't there much more fruitful discussion as in the last 2 posts re: the Ark?  I.e., how this plays out, what it looks like, how we "put on Christ"?  My  :2c:.

I hope to discuss those other topics soon as well.  I want to show you who the two witnesses are and how to determine it yourself and expound on the Ark of the Covenant also.  Much more to say here as I think this subject is very important.  If we don't understand this one - then the other ones will be difficult to understand.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #393 on: March 07, 2009, 04:31:06 AM »
Hi Paul yes I agree that it should start right away, but alas that's not always the case for Paul sates

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.  14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.   
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,  2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit
Paul is does not say they are not saved who only drink the milk, but he encourages those who still drink milk to go on to perfection. And that is what we are to do also for babes in Christ.

This is brought out more forcefully when we read what Paul said here

 1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?   4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Paul still called these babes his brethren even though he knew that they were still not able to eat meat. Babes are saved but have need of teaching that they might grow some teeth and be then able to eat the meat. There is a growing process in Christ no one starts as an adult.   


Consider this pneuma, would you agree that those were Paul's brethren if they are babes in Christ?  And if they are babes in Christ then Christ is working.  Christ is never idle.  Sure they are not yet perfected but Christ is transforming them.  All our mortal lives we are being transformed.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #394 on: March 07, 2009, 04:37:15 AM »
:cloud9: As a side note..... Noah found grace in God's eyes, yet he still had to work to build an ark. We too are working to build an ark, as we are obedient to apply whatever is quickened to us, ie. we are putting on Christ, the new ark that will raise us up above the waters of judgment (death contained in the law/letter). Blessings....
So, Noah didn't rush out to feed the poor--he did what God directed him to do.

Is that what works is?  For each of us, it might be something different?

Hi Molly do whatever God tells you to do, if He tells you to do nothing that still doing His work, it is all in what He says for you to do.
Ok that's good--I agree with that.  But, not to beg a point, how do you know you are doing what God wants you to do? 

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #395 on: March 07, 2009, 04:43:35 AM »
Hi Paul, how do you see this verse??

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


how can he be saved, if his works were burned up (1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble

1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.



Christ is building the Temple.  Take verse 13 and compare to this one:

1Co 3:17  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
 
The fire is the trial of the works.  Again, this is why it is so important to increase.  Recall the parable of the pounds (talents). 

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #396 on: March 07, 2009, 04:49:37 AM »
right, i agree.  I thot Paul was saying one couldnt' be saved without works of the Spirit.  But in those verses, one can be saved, through destruction of the "works of the flesh", there is nothing in those verses about being saved by works of the Spirit.  

One pathway (narrow) produces works of Christ and reward, no shame.

and

other pathway (broad) results in savlation but no reward, left desolate, naked, shamed.  

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Zeek, I believe that God will ultimately save everyone.  Now to what happens to those that continued in their fleshy ways - willfully sinning?  I believe they will experience the Wrath of God.  But ultimately they too shall be saved.  But the  parable of the unforgiving servant shows that the servant was tormented UNTIL his debt was paid.

Paul

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #397 on: March 07, 2009, 04:58:46 AM »
Hi Paul yes I agree that it should start right away, but alas that's not always the case for Paul sates

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.  14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.   
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,  2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit
Paul is does not say they are not saved who only drink the milk, but he encourages those who still drink milk to go on to perfection. And that is what we are to do also for babes in Christ.

This is brought out more forcefully when we read what Paul said here

 1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?   4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Paul still called these babes his brethren even though he knew that they were still not able to eat meat. Babes are saved but have need of teaching that they might grow some teeth and be then able to eat the meat. There is a growing process in Christ no one starts as an adult.   


Consider this pneuma, would you agree that those were Paul's brethren if they are babes in Christ?  And if they are babes in Christ then Christ is working.  Christ is never idle.  Sure they are not yet perfected but Christ is transforming them.  All our mortal lives we are being transformed.

Paul

Getting to sound like an echo on this thread :laughing7:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #398 on: March 07, 2009, 05:02:24 AM »
Thanks Paul, so you're NOT saying we work to stay saved.

OK, so at the risk of sounding too simplistic here...isn't everyone basically saying we're saved by grace, then God empowers us to do His will?  It seems like we're majoring in semantics, and minoring in Jesus' death, resurrection, and life in and through us.   :dontknow:

Well, we do but it isn't the motivation.  The motivation is to perform His will.  Yes we are saved by Grace.  And it is the Grace that is attracting us towards Faith and Good Works but it isn't until we have that Faith and Good Works that we can access that Grace.

Paul

Hi Paul.  OK, then it's that last line that I don't see that way, if I'm understanding you.  Directly, how do you believe we "access grace with those good works"?  Maybe you're not saying it, but it sounds to me like you're saying we have to act first, and know how to act in our own works, to initially get that grace, i.e., get saved....Simply, when you believed, did you do it, or did God give you that faith to believe?  In other words, was it your work or His?  Again, I don't know if semantics are getting us, or if there's a deeper meaning, and that's what I'm trying to clarify.  Thanks, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #399 on: March 07, 2009, 05:11:12 AM »
ah, and I just more clearly see you are saying we work to stay saved...no matter the motivation, bottom line, that it's our effort that keeps us saved?
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23