Author Topic: Works  (Read 92175 times)

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Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #350 on: March 07, 2009, 01:53:23 AM »
So, Paul, if we are like the Corinthians, would we be unsaved since the Corinthians all had problems? They surely did not do the works which brought glory to Christ yet Paul still called them saints and God and Christ still accepted them.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #351 on: March 07, 2009, 01:56:01 AM »
They surely did not do the works which brought glory to Christ yet Paul still called them saints and God and Christ still accepted them.

Amen.  Hard to understand, coming from my extremely legalistic background, but that's what it says, isn't it?  Ah, soak it in.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #352 on: March 07, 2009, 02:06:02 AM »
 :cloud9: I can see what Paul is saying, and assuming he's not meaning it in a legalistic sort of way, and I don't think he is, he is right. We are to be a spiritual work in progress, and what 99% of the churches I know of teach, basically, is you "get saved" and sit on a church pew until you die. There is little if any growth, but a whole lot of trying to TEACH people how to be "better Christians" instead of teaching them how to put on Christ and walk in the Spirit.

I was given a dream/vision of someone once, and I will never forget it as long as I live. This person had refused time and again, to stop doing what from the appearance realm, looked like a good work. And it WAS a good work, if not for the fact the Lord had said more than once, enough already, so that made it a whole new ballgame. Because that meant a proceeding word of life by which we live, had come forth for this person.

So anyway, in this dream/vision, real as day, I was there with all these people at a huge banquet hall, and the person in question. Suddenly the one who had been the instigator of the good works this person was doing that the Lord said to stop, appeared at the French doors outside, bidding this person leave with them to do more of the good works. The person went outside with them, ignoring once again what the Lord said to do. I went out after this person, intending to try to bring her to her senses and repentance.

Just then, I looked at the disobedient person, and I was shocked to see the Lord in her, shriveled up and misshapen, limbs contorted from lack of use (as in not reaching out to be used to heal, not walking in the Spirit, ect.).

And then He spoke, "I HAVE BEEN PUT TO SHAME THROUGH DEAD WORKS."

I felt sick to my stomach and jolted awake. So dead works, regardless of how they look to others or to ourselves, are works that don't have the life (direction) of the Spirit in them. Blessings....









« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 02:09:15 AM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #353 on: March 07, 2009, 02:08:06 AM »
OK, I see what you're saying, and I agree, we need to be obedient (I would add, with His empowerment through us)...following onward, do you believe if we don't "remain in righteousness", we lose our salvation, are no longer saved?  My understanding is, our works can't "keep us saved"...begun in Spirit, then not staying saved by flesh.  Thanks, James.

Well I believe the works DO keep you saved, hence the need to endure unto the end.  I believe the scriptures show that if after you have received Good Works that you are to increase in them.  If you do not then what you had is taken away.  Consider the parable of the pounds (talents).

Paul

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #354 on: March 07, 2009, 02:12:55 AM »
:cloud9: I can see what Paul is saying, and assuming he's not meaning it in a legalistic sort of way, and I don't think he is, he is right. We are to be a spiritual work in progress, and what 99% of the churches I know of teach, basically, is you "get saved" and sit on a church pew until you die. There is little if any growth, but a whole lot of trying to TEACH people how to be "better Christians" instead of teaching them how to put on Christ and walk in the Spirit.

I was given a dream/vision of someone once, and I will never forget it as long as I live. This person had refused time and again, to stop doing what from the appearance realm, looked like a good work. And it WAS a good work, if not for the fact the Lord had said more than once, enough already, so that made it a whole new ballgame. Because that meant a proceeding word of life by which we live, had come forth for this person.

So anyway, in this dream/vision, real as day, I was there with all these people at a huge banquet hall, and the person in question. Suddenly the one who had been the instigator of the good works this person was doing that the Lord said to stop, appeared at the French doors outside, bidding this person leave with them to do more of the good works. The person went outside with them, ignoring once again what the Lord said to do. I went out after this person, intending to try to bring her to her senses and repentance.

Just then, I looked at the disobedient person, and I was shocked to see the Lord in her, shriveled up and misshapen, limbs contorted from lack of use (as in not reaching out to be used to heal, not walking in the Spirit, ect.).

And then He spoke, "I HAVE BEEN PUT TO SHAME THROUGH DEAD WORKS."

I felt sick to my stomach and jolted awake. So dead works, regardless of how they look to others or to ourselves, are works that don't have the life (direction) of the Spirit in them. Blessings....











Hi ya sis, amen and dead works are like tares they look the same but there is no life in them.

That same principle can be applied to the difference between the letter of the law and the spiritual law

They look the same but one has no life while the other is nothing but life.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #355 on: March 07, 2009, 02:20:52 AM »
:cloud9: I can see what Paul is saying, and assuming he's not meaning it in a legalistic sort of way, and I don't think he is, he is right. We are to be a spiritual work in progress, and what 99% of the churches I know of teach, basically, is you "get saved" and sit on a church pew until you die. There is little if any growth, but a whole lot of trying to TEACH people how to be "better Christians" instead of teaching them how to put on Christ and walk in the Spirit.

Cardinal, if that is all the further they get after genuinely believing God that Christ died for their sins then they are still saved.
The Galatians are the severest test case of a Christian. Yes, they fell out of grace but Paul still said they were saved and God and Christ still accepted them as beloved.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #356 on: March 07, 2009, 02:21:15 AM »
 :cloud9: Hi pneuma, and Amen..... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #357 on: March 07, 2009, 02:25:26 AM »
OK, I see what you're saying, and I agree, we need to be obedient (I would add, with His empowerment through us)...following onward, do you believe if we don't "remain in righteousness", we lose our salvation, are no longer saved?  My understanding is, our works can't "keep us saved"...begun in Spirit, then not staying saved by flesh.  Thanks, James.

Well I believe the works DO keep you saved, hence the need to endure unto the end.  I believe the scriptures show that if after you have received Good Works that you are to increase in them.  If you do not then what you had is taken away.  Consider the parable of the pounds (talents).

Paul

Hi paul we view this just a little differently, a babe in Christ starts out just as any baby does, they don't do any work but wait around, and cry to be fed, that does not mean they are not saved because they do no work (there not capable of work). Work belongs to those who have grown up enough to eat meat, yes it may still be mixed with milk but they know have strenght to do the works of their Father to the degree of the strenght the fathers meat has given them. And this will continue until they have obtianed the fullness of Christ. So works for me are not what keeps us saved they are what is necessary to obtain the fullness of Christ or to obtain the end of our salvation.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #358 on: March 07, 2009, 02:26:13 AM »
OK, I see what you're saying, and I agree, we need to be obedient (I would add, with His empowerment through us)...following onward, do you believe if we don't "remain in righteousness", we lose our salvation, are no longer saved?  My understanding is, our works can't "keep us saved"...begun in Spirit, then not staying saved by flesh.  Thanks, James.

Well I believe the works DO keep you saved, hence the need to endure unto the end.  I believe the scriptures show that if after you have received Good Works that you are to increase in them.  If you do not then what you had is taken away.  Consider the parable of the pounds (talents).

Paul

I guess then where we would differ on that is back to the context of the evangels of the circumcision and uncircumcision...IMO, that's the only way all the verses wrt to grace and works reconcile...otherwise, we come up with schizms and arguments, many saying scriptures contradict...which they don't when rightly divided ("cut").  "Saved by grace, not of ourselves"...I sure can't boast.

Paul can answer for himself Card, but IMO, what I see is the difference between "working to stay a child of God and not of the devil (what use is grace)", and "doing the obedient works of a son as God grows us (grace still intact)".  Again, works as a result of grace, not as a means to get grace.  God's blessing, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #359 on: March 07, 2009, 02:26:19 AM »
:cloud9: I can see what Paul is saying, and assuming he's not meaning it in a legalistic sort of way, and I don't think he is, he is right. We are to be a spiritual work in progress, and what 99% of the churches I know of teach, basically, is you "get saved" and sit on a church pew until you die. There is little if any growth, but a whole lot of trying to TEACH people how to be "better Christians" instead of teaching them how to put on Christ and walk in the Spirit.

Cardinal, if that is all the further they get after genuinely believing God that Christ died for their sins then they are still saved.
The Galatians is the severest test case of a Christian. Yes, they fell out of grace but Paul still said they were saved and God and Christ still accepted them as beloved.

 :cloud9: Tony, I'm not one that believes that they're not. But there is a three fold salvation process and what is saved of them first, is their spirit. What the works beyond that initial salvation process deals with is the salvation process of the whole of their soul; it is the justification in the inner court of the Tabernacle pattern. Works tried by fire (whether in this life or the next). Blessings....
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 02:29:05 AM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #360 on: March 07, 2009, 02:27:07 AM »
So, Paul, if we are like the Corinthians, would we be unsaved since the Corinthians all had problems? They surely did not do the works which brought glory to Christ yet Paul still called them saints and God and Christ still accepted them.

Tony, there is not sin where there is no knowledge of sin.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #361 on: March 07, 2009, 02:29:59 AM »
:cloud9: I can see what Paul is saying, and assuming he's not meaning it in a legalistic sort of way, and I don't think he is, he is right. We are to be a spiritual work in progress, and what 99% of the churches I know of teach, basically, is you "get saved" and sit on a church pew until you die. There is little if any growth, but a whole lot of trying to TEACH people how to be "better Christians" instead of teaching them how to put on Christ and walk in the Spirit.

I was given a dream/vision of someone once, and I will never forget it as long as I live. This person had refused time and again, to stop doing what from the appearance realm, looked like a good work. And it WAS a good work, if not for the fact the Lord had said more than once, enough already, so that made it a whole new ballgame. Because that meant a proceeding word of life by which we live, had come forth for this person.

So anyway, in this dream/vision, real as day, I was there with all these people at a huge banquet hall, and the person in question. Suddenly the one who had been the instigator of the good works this person was doing that the Lord said to stop, appeared at the French doors outside, bidding this person leave with them to do more of the good works. The person went outside with them, ignoring once again what the Lord said to do. I went out after this person, intending to try to bring her to her senses and repentance.

Just then, I looked at the disobedient person, and I was shocked to see the Lord in her, shriveled up and misshapen, limbs contorted from lack of use (as in not reaching out to be used to heal, not walking in the Spirit, ect.).

And then He spoke, "I HAVE BEEN PUT TO SHAME THROUGH DEAD WORKS."

I felt sick to my stomach and jolted awake. So dead works, regardless of how they look to others or to ourselves, are works that don't have the life (direction) of the Spirit in them. Blessings....

It is really easy to comprehend if we consider that we are branches in the vine.  If the branch doesn't bear fruit it is cast off from the vine.

Paul










[/quote]
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 02:44:43 AM by trettep »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #362 on: March 07, 2009, 02:33:18 AM »
If we don't consider the evangels of the circumcision and uncircumcision, rightly cutting the Word, how is this scripture reconciled with working to keep salvation?  "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" 
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #363 on: March 07, 2009, 02:34:02 AM »
 :cloud9: As a side note..... Noah found grace in God's eyes, yet he still had to work to build an ark. We too are working to build an ark, as we are obedient to apply whatever is quickened to us, ie. we are putting on Christ, the new ark that will raise us up above the waters of judgment (death contained in the law/letter). Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #364 on: March 07, 2009, 02:34:57 AM »
isnt a Fulfillment of the law ,?

isnt true that the Israelites were told to Hate their enemies...seems a GREATer magnification to me, for instance-The Honour in the Old C compared to the  HONOUR your Mother and Father  with a promise -differs quite from that spoke of In the New...the previous was a Burden

The old for me Has noting to do with the NEW...one was a Physical application the other has a  greater Spiritual significance ...the law is Magnified...therefore its greater......

Keep the LAW in its sense as Much as wish..keep the Sabbath as a Literal DAY...aint going to make you Righteous...

but im not denying its Moral Value.


What I'm asking is, when Paul said "by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified" did Paul have in mind things like forgiving, showing mercy, loving your neighbor, loving your enemy, etc.

Here is someone who was justified by love.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

I think "deeds of the law" refers to outward physical things like keeping the physcial Sabbath, being circumcized etc. which can be performed without regard to being inwardly circumcised.  Thus "not of works" and similar statements by Paul is not referring to Christ's commandments.




Yes Bob Im sure He did, But if we take Custom and put ourselves in thier times, Thier tradition Blinded them of the reality . Pauls empahasis for mine is To Break those Bounderies before the Build , ya cant go in different Directions at the same Time,

and again to latter Yes...Literal dos and dont just makes one ConForm ,im not saying theres not a Pressing, But the Transformation is as You say from Within...if ya will ,working from the Inside OUT oppossed to Math 23 , cleansing the outside of the Dish for the APPERANCE of righteousness,...Its a Matter of the Heart\Mind.  :icon_flower:


 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #365 on: March 07, 2009, 02:35:39 AM »
Hi paul we view this just a little differently, a babe in Christ starts out just as any baby does, they don't do any work but wait around, and cry to be fed, that does not mean they are not saved because they do no work (there not capable of work). Work belongs to those who have grown up enough to eat meat, yes it may still be mixed with milk but they know have strenght to do the works of their Father to the degree of the strenght the fathers meat has given them. And this will continue until they have obtianed the fullness of Christ. So works for me are not what keeps us saved they are what is necessary to obtain the fullness of Christ or to obtain the end of our salvation.

But don't you believe that the work is started immediately?  If your mind is even pursuing or seeking God's Truth when it could be rather pursuing the lusts of your flesh then isn't that work?  Isn't that Christ putting down sin in your flesh?  Someone is at work in you if that is occurring.  I understand what your saying but again Faith without works would be dead.  We wouldn't be in Grace as a babe in Christ if the work hadn't begun.

Paul

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #366 on: March 07, 2009, 02:35:47 AM »
If we don't consider the evangels of the circumcision and uncircumcision, rightly cutting the Word, how is this scripture reconciled with working to keep salvation?  "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" 

Jab you are mixing up the letter of the law which has no life in it with the spiritual law

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #367 on: March 07, 2009, 02:36:35 AM »
:cloud9: As a side note..... Noah found grace in God's eyes, yet he still had to work to build an ark. We too are working to build an ark, as we are obedient to apply whatever is quickened to us, ie. we are putting on Christ, the new ark that will raise us up above the waters of judgment (death contained in the law/letter). Blessings....

Again amen :thumbsup:

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #368 on: March 07, 2009, 02:40:22 AM »
I guess then where we would differ on that is back to the context of the evangels of the circumcision and uncircumcision...IMO, that's the only way all the verses wrt to grace and works reconcile...otherwise, we come up with schizms and arguments, many saying scriptures contradict...which they don't when rightly divided ("cut").  "Saved by grace, not of ourselves"...I sure can't boast.

Paul can answer for himself Card, but IMO, what I see is the difference between "working to stay a child of God and not of the devil (what use is grace)", and "doing the obedient works of a son as God grows us (grace still intact)".  Again, works as a result of grace, not as a means to get grace.  God's blessing, James.

I stand corrected here Jabcat, I don't want to imply that the Christian is performing the Good Work because they want to stay in salvation because that isn't really true and probably my flesh getting the better of me in that post.  But rather that the works are performed because of Love - the wanting of helping others and to abide in God's love.  I make that correction because the sound of "stay in salvation" could be misinterpreted as being motivated by fear which is not what I wanted to communicate.

Paul

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #369 on: March 07, 2009, 02:43:09 AM »
If we don't consider the evangels of the circumcision and uncircumcision, rightly cutting the Word, how is this scripture reconciled with working to keep salvation?  "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" 

 :cloud9: Geez, I can't keep up with you guys! Anyway Jab.....Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling is I assume the scripture you're referring to here? That Greek word there also means deliverance, and deliverance is a spiritual work that begins after one receives the baptism of the HG. It is the beginning of Matt. 13 where the tares are thrown into the fire, and the end of your flesh ruled "world".

So the two scriptures in that light, do not contradict one another at all, but agree with one another. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #370 on: March 07, 2009, 02:44:05 AM »
If we don't consider the evangels of the circumcision and uncircumcision, rightly cutting the Word, how is this scripture reconciled with working to keep salvation?  "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" 

The works of the flesh are not the same as the works of the Christ which come by the Spirit.  This is a rebuke that proves the case that we must do His works.  Any work that is not His is ours.  And our works ARE the work of the flesh.  

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #371 on: March 07, 2009, 02:46:33 AM »
:cloud9: As a side note..... Noah found grace in God's eyes, yet he still had to work to build an ark. We too are working to build an ark, as we are obedient to apply whatever is quickened to us, ie. we are putting on Christ, the new ark that will raise us up above the waters of judgment (death contained in the law/letter). Blessings....

He who has Christ IS the ark.  They are the Ark of the New covenant.  Men that possess the Spirit of God ARE the Ark of the New covenant.  The Law is inside of them - it is written in their hearts.

Paul

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #372 on: March 07, 2009, 02:48:53 AM »
 :cloud9: Exactly......putting on Christ who IS the ark, makes us the ark, too, as the Head and the body are one.  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #373 on: March 07, 2009, 02:50:58 AM »
Thanks Paul, so you're NOT saying we work to stay saved.

OK, so at the risk of sounding too simplistic here...isn't everyone basically saying we're saved by grace, then God empowers us to do His will?  It seems like we're majoring in semantics, and minoring in Jesus' death, resurrection, and life in and through us.   :dontknow:
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 02:54:45 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #374 on: March 07, 2009, 02:51:54 AM »
And if we can then get beyond that, isn't there much more fruitful discussion as in the last 2 posts re: the Ark?  I.e., how this plays out, what it looks like, how we "put on Christ"?  My  :2c:.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23