Author Topic: Works  (Read 83794 times)

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Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #325 on: March 06, 2009, 10:04:06 PM »
Come on Molly..read Nats context post ..Tis the Spirit which RISES those words to Life ,many still see death and darkness, doom and Gloom...HE REVEALS these things ,and its always to His Glory, it  ALWAYS goes back to HIM :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance:
Are you saying that we cannot understand that, even on an intellectual level, without the Holy Spirit?
well not being an intellectual myself Molly ...Folk are where they are...gee,im nobodys Judge, but somethings Blinding their intellect and preventing them moving forward ...

let me know next time ya go and talk to the Brightest and ask Him\her.... :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #326 on: March 06, 2009, 10:10:04 PM »
Come on Molly..read Nats context post ..Tis the Spirit which RISES those words to Life ,many still see death and darkness, doom and Gloom...HE REVEALS these things ,and its always to His Glory, it  ALWAYS goes back to HIM :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance:
Are you saying that we cannot understand that, even on an intellectual level, without the Holy Spirit?
well not being an intellectual myself Molly ...Folk are where they are...gee,im nobodys Judge, but somethings Blinding their intellect and preventing them moving forward ...

let me know next time ya go and talk to the Brightest and ask Him\her.... :icon_flower:
well--I'm just trying to get over my recent trauma from three weeks in church.

I couldn't believe what they were teaching--they were literally shutting down the Spirit--turning off the lights.

And, the look in the minister's eyes whenever I would bring something up--horror and, worse than that, ...fear...

What was she afraid of?  That everything she knew might be wrong?  Or that I would lead her students down the wrong path?  Or what?  Oh, well, I probably will never know.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #327 on: March 06, 2009, 10:15:52 PM »
Come on Molly..read Nats context post ..Tis the Spirit which RISES those words to Life ,many still see death and darkness, doom and Gloom...HE REVEALS these things ,and its always to His Glory, it  ALWAYS goes back to HIM :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance:
Are you saying that we cannot understand that, even on an intellectual level, without the Holy Spirit?
well not being an intellectual myself Molly ...Folk are where they are...gee,im nobodys Judge, but somethings Blinding their intellect and preventing them moving forward ...

let me know next time ya go and talk to the Brightest and ask Him\her.... :icon_flower:
well--I'm just trying to get over my recent trauma from three weeks in church.

I couldn't believe what they were teaching--they were literally shutting down the Spirit--turning off the lights.

And, the look in the minister's eyes whenever I would bring something up--horror and, worse than that, ...fear...

What was she afraid of?  That everything she knew might be wrong?  Or that I would lead her students down the wrong path?  Or what?  Oh, well, I probably will never know.

ya sowing seeds Sis....may take many seasons before their watered....some just may wither until another tine...go easy there, it can take its toll such places...I havent been for yrs...
 :HeartThrob:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #328 on: March 06, 2009, 10:17:35 PM »
The place that needs it the most is the one that fears the worst.  The one thing churches are adamant about is unity . . .and that kind of thing brings division.  It really needs to start at the top . . pray for the pastors and teachers that not ony will they be able to see it . . .but that they'll be able to make way for the changes that come with it.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #329 on: March 06, 2009, 10:21:42 PM »
Mother Theresa is an interesting case.  Personally, I find her a little creepy, even before she revealed that she hadn't felt the presence of Jesus in 40 years or whatever it was.

Thats actually what religion does,  it kept her from feeling spiritual because it teaches people to look in all the wrong places.



Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #330 on: March 06, 2009, 10:22:22 PM »
Come on Molly..read Nats context post ..Tis the Spirit which RISES those words to Life ,many still see death and darkness, doom and Gloom...HE REVEALS these things ,and its always to His Glory, it  ALWAYS goes back to HIM :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance:
Are you saying that we cannot understand that, even on an intellectual level, without the Holy Spirit?
well not being an intellectual myself Molly ...Folk are where they are...gee,im nobodys Judge, but somethings Blinding their intellect and preventing them moving forward ...

let me know next time ya go and talk to the Brightest and ask Him\her.... :icon_flower:
well--I'm just trying to get over my recent trauma from three weeks in church.

I couldn't believe what they were teaching--they were literally shutting down the Spirit--turning off the lights.

And, the look in the minister's eyes whenever I would bring something up--horror and, worse than that, ...fear...

What was she afraid of?  That everything she knew might be wrong?  Or that I would lead her students down the wrong path?  Or what?  Oh, well, I probably will never know.

ya sowing seeds Sis....may take many seasons before their watered....some just may wither until another tine...go easy there, it can take its toll such places...I havent been for yrs...
 :HeartThrob:
Yes, but I was backing up everything I said with scripture, which came to me out of the blue--and kind of surprised me since I don't make a point to memorize scripture.  So God himself must have wanted her to know those things.

But, I can't go back.  I can't be in a place where they are turning off the spigots.

Even Jesus couldn't work in a place which turned off the spigots.

A prophet is not without honor except in his own home town lol.


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #331 on: March 06, 2009, 10:30:26 PM »
But, I can't go back.  I can't be in a place where they are turning off the spigots.



I found the same thing,  if I go back I will become a withered branch.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #332 on: March 06, 2009, 10:30:55 PM »
:cloud9: Paul, I'm not offended by what you're sharing because I think you've seen something. I only wish you would share in more detail. Blessings....

Cardinal, essentially we are of Christ (Christians) if we are becoming the Christ.

Paul

 :cloud9: AMEN, AMEN, AMEN........ :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #333 on: March 06, 2009, 11:45:43 PM »
"Yet to him who is not working,
 yet is believing on Him Who is justifying
 the irreverent,
 his faith is reckoned for righteousness
."
Rom 4:5
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #334 on: March 06, 2009, 11:50:19 PM »
"Yet to him who is not working,
 yet is believing on Him Who is justifying
 the irreverent,
 his faith is reckoned for righteousness
."
Rom 4:5
Amen TT :icon_flower:

By the deeds of the LAW no man is justified. :thumbsup:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #335 on: March 07, 2009, 12:15:22 AM »
You said "If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath."

The apostle Paul says just the opposite.

Coud you quote what you are referring to Tony?  Thanks.

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #336 on: March 07, 2009, 12:28:30 AM »
By the deeds of the LAW no man is justified. :thumbsup:

Is loving your neighbor a "deed of the law" ?

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #337 on: March 07, 2009, 12:49:57 AM »
By the deeds of the LAW no man is justified. :thumbsup:

Is loving your neighbor a "deed of the law" ?


isnt a Fulfillment of the law ,?

 isnt true that the Israelites were told to Hate their enemies...seems a GREATer magnification to me, for instance-The Honour in the Old C compared to the  HONOUR your Mother and Father  with a promise -differs quite from that spoke of In the New...the previous was a Burden

The old for me Has noting to do with the NEW...one was a Physical application the other has a  greater Spiritual significance ...the law is Magnified...therefore its greater......

Keep the LAW in its sense as Much as wish..keep the Sabbath as a Literal DAY...aint going to make you Righteous...

but im not denying its Moral Value.


 :icon_flower:




« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 12:54:58 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #338 on: March 07, 2009, 12:50:47 AM »
"Yet to him who is not working,
 yet is believing on Him Who is justifying
 the irreverent,
 his faith is reckoned for righteousness
."
Rom 4:5

Those are the works of the flesh.  Read verse 1:

Rom 4:1  What, then, shall we say Abraham our father, to have found, according to flesh?

I think most here are in agreement that the works of the flesh are not a requirement for salvation.  Paul shows elsewhere that the works of Christ are a requirement for salvation.

Paul


Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #339 on: March 07, 2009, 12:59:48 AM »

Those are the works of the flesh.  Read verse 1:

Rom 4:1  What, then, shall we say Abraham our father, to have found, according to flesh?

I think most here are in agreement that the works of the flesh are not a requirement for salvation.  Paul shows elsewhere that the works of Christ are a requirement for salvation.

Paul


Can you say what are works of the flesh and what are works of Christ--and how do we tell the difference?

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #340 on: March 07, 2009, 01:05:34 AM »
Can you say what are works of the flesh and what are works of Christ--and how do we tell the difference?

Pretty much any work that caters to the lusts of the flesh is is a work of the flesh which equals the opposite of do unto neighbor as you want done unto you.

Paul


Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #341 on: March 07, 2009, 01:07:06 AM »
So clarifying...Paul, aren't you summarily saying "bad or sinful works" won't get us salvation, but "good, righteous works" will?  Is what you're saying that simple?  That if we sin, no salvation.  If we "live for God", that gives us salvation?  If not, please distinguish...

I try to believe and practice that my works are as filthy rags, that it's all His grace and works...His death, resurrection, gift to me, and "His grace is sufficient"...thanks, james.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 01:26:59 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #342 on: March 07, 2009, 01:12:40 AM »
Can you say what are works of the flesh and what are works of Christ--and how do we tell the difference?

Pretty much any work that caters to the lusts of the flesh is is a work of the flesh which equals the opposite of do unto neighbor as you want done unto you.

Paul


well, for instance, bad guys that get their money in a bad way, including killing people, will always give some of it to charity.  I'm not sure what they're thinking--I doubt it's guilt otherwise they'd give it all away, but are those works of the flesh or works of Christ?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #343 on: March 07, 2009, 01:15:10 AM »


Do unto others........












THEN RUN!!!!!!   


Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #344 on: March 07, 2009, 01:16:07 AM »


Do unto others........



THEN RUN!!!!!! 

Before they get a chance to do unto you  :Sparkletooth:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #345 on: March 07, 2009, 01:21:47 AM »
Can you say what are works of the flesh and what are works of Christ--and how do we tell the difference?

Pretty much any work that caters to the lusts of the flesh is is a work of the flesh which equals the opposite of do unto neighbor as you want done unto you.

Paul


well, for instance, bad guys that get their money in a bad way, including killing people, will always give some of it to charity.  I'm not sure what they're thinking--I doubt it's guilt otherwise they'd give it all away, but are those works of the flesh or works of Christ?


 :cloud9: God looks at the motive of the heart; that's what the fire is for that tries our works. They might get completely by with all of it in this realm, but they won't the next. Not in a vengeful, cast them into hell way, but God has a way of purifying what is His. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #346 on: March 07, 2009, 01:30:35 AM »
So clarifying...Paul, aren't you summarily saying "bad or sinful works" won't get us salvation, but "good, righteous works" will?  If not, please distinguish...I try to believe and practice that my works are as filthy rags, that it's all His grace and works...His death, resurrection, gift to me, and "His grace is sufficient"...thanks, james.

Not at all jabcat because at the moment we receive forgiveness we no longer have debt - so we are not doing Good works because we have debt - those past sins were forgiven = no more debt.  The works we do in Christ are Love.  They are because we want to remain in righteousness.  When the Israelites committed a sin - they would do the work of sacrificing because they had a debt to pay.  But they would go and continue to sin because all they had to do was again go and submit a sacrifice.  Their conscience could never be pure because they could continue in sin.  But with Christ we receive Forgiveness of our sins and we continue in righteousness.  See in the letter of the law - there is still a license to sin because you can just go and submit your sacrifice - but not so when we are in Christ. 

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #347 on: March 07, 2009, 01:32:36 AM »
well, for instance, bad guys that get their money in a bad way, including killing people, will always give some of it to charity.  I'm not sure what they're thinking--I doubt it's guilt otherwise they'd give it all away, but are those works of the flesh or works of Christ?

Works of Christ is where Christ receives the Glory.

Paul

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #348 on: March 07, 2009, 01:40:22 AM »
OK, I see what you're saying, and I agree, we need to be obedient (I would add, with His empowerment through us)...following onward, do you believe if we don't "remain in righteousness", we lose our salvation, are no longer saved?  My understanding is, our works can't "keep us saved"...begun in Spirit, then not staying saved by flesh.  Thanks, James.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 01:43:24 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #349 on: March 07, 2009, 01:51:55 AM »
isnt a Fulfillment of the law ,?

isnt true that the Israelites were told to Hate their enemies...seems a GREATer magnification to me, for instance-The Honour in the Old C compared to the  HONOUR your Mother and Father  with a promise -differs quite from that spoke of In the New...the previous was a Burden

The old for me Has noting to do with the NEW...one was a Physical application the other has a  greater Spiritual significance ...the law is Magnified...therefore its greater......

Keep the LAW in its sense as Much as wish..keep the Sabbath as a Literal DAY...aint going to make you Righteous...

but im not denying its Moral Value.


What I'm asking is, when Paul said "by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified" did Paul have in mind things like forgiving, showing mercy, loving your neighbor, loving your enemy, etc.

Here is someone who was justified by love.

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

I think "deeds of the law" refers to outward physical things like keeping the physcial Sabbath, being circumcized etc. which can be performed without regard to being inwardly circumcised.  Thus "not of works" and similar statements by Paul is not referring to Christ's commandments.