Author Topic: Works  (Read 119546 times)

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trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #300 on: March 06, 2009, 09:06:13 PM »
Here is Paul's comment at the end of Romans 7:

Rom 7:25  I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin.

I wonder how many realize they are to serve the Law of God through Jesus Christ?

Paul

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #301 on: March 06, 2009, 09:09:01 PM »
Question to all

Do you believe all works are the same?

Do you believe there are works of the law and works of faith?

I ask because what seems to be taking place in this thread, is people keep pointing back to works of the law when those of us who believe in works have stated repeatedly that we are talking about spiritual works, works of faith, works of Jesus etc.  It as though some  can't seem to differentiate between the two.

Jesus said greater WORKS shall ye do because I go to the Father.

Pretty plain imo that WORKS are to be done by us through Christ, yet many here seem to be saying we don't have to do WORKs.

So a simple way to end this debate is to ask all here this question

Do you believe we are to do the greater WORKS Jesus mentioned?

If you answer YES to this question, I don't see how you then can make an argument against what Paul, Bob and I have been saying.  For if you make an argument against what we are saying then you are not differentiating between the two laws.

Scott :icon_flower:

Those who are His are Annoited unto works, His works through US made manifest, for the fullfilment of His purpose, it seems babes are very much stuck in the Earth purposing themselves with the Literal..ie fundaments...I see a Cycle and progression  :icon_flower:

.

Not sure of what you mean bro, but I beleive that which is done in the spirit will be manifest in the earth.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #302 on: March 06, 2009, 09:09:37 PM »
Thank you.  I have friends that exhibit these traits but according to many would not be considered christians.  The latter part of verse 23 is the key that gets ignored.

Paul, did those friends atrribute those good things to Christ or did they attribute them not to Christ.  Because if they attributed them to Christ then they indeed were Good things but if they didn't then they robbed Christ of His Glory and thus they were not Good things.  Christ is the Copyright holder of all GOOD deeds that men can perform.

Paul
Christ is the copyright holder of all good deeds done by men.

I love it!

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #303 on: March 06, 2009, 09:11:23 PM »
Some preferred the equation representation to understanding this.  So let's go that approach and see who disagrees.  Here is the equation that I understand:

Faith + works (not ours but His) -> (recursive = Growing in Grace) -> salvation!

What this equation above means that when we have Faith and Good works we access Grace.  And when we are in Grace and continue to have Faith + works we will Grow in Grace.  And if we endure and continue in this process till the end, then we shall receive salvation.

Paul

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #304 on: March 06, 2009, 09:12:24 PM »
 :cloud9: Paul, I'm not offended by what you're sharing because I think you've seen something. I only wish you would share in more detail. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #305 on: March 06, 2009, 09:14:29 PM »
Some preferred the equation representation to understanding this.  So let's go that approach and see who disagrees.  Here is the equation that I understand:

Faith + works (not ours but His) -> (recursive = Growing in Grace) -> salvation!

What this equation above means that when we have Faith and Good works we access Grace.  And when we are in Grace and continue to have Faith + works we will Grow in Grace.  And if we endure and continue in this process till the end, then we shall receive salvation.

Paul
This is why the one that has much has more given to him.

You could call it the cycle of salvation--a whirlwind--the staircase to heaven.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #306 on: March 06, 2009, 09:16:34 PM »
Christ is the copyright holder of all good deeds done by men.

I love it!

Yes, Molly and I think if everyone thinks that way they will start to understand many things more that they read in scripture.  We as man are always wicked creatures.  This is why when Christ is alive in us - we are no more because we will no longer seek to perform the pleasure of our flesh that we did in the past but instead the lusts of our flesh will be overcome by the New man in us which is Christ.  This is HOW we are saved (it is Christ putting down our lusts in our own flesh by His very nature in us).  This can ONLY be accomplish by Faith.  This is all logical and rational when we understand that Jesus Christ is the copyright owner of all good works.  That is why this question of works is so critical to undertand.

Paul

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #307 on: March 06, 2009, 09:16:57 PM »
Question to all

Do you believe all works are the same?

Do you believe there are works of the law and works of faith?

I ask because what seems to be taking place in this thread, is people keep pointing back to works of the law when those of us who believe in works have stated repeatedly that we are talking about spiritual works, works of faith, works of Jesus etc.  It as though some  can't seem to differentiate between the two.

Jesus said greater WORKS shall ye do because I go to the Father.

Pretty plain imo that WORKS are to be done by us through Christ, yet many here seem to be saying we don't have to do WORKs.

So a simple way to end this debate is to ask all here this question

Do you believe we are to do the greater WORKS Jesus mentioned?

If you answer YES to this question, I don't see how you then can make an argument against what Paul, Bob and I have been saying.  For if you make an argument against what we are saying then you are not differentiating between the two laws.

Scott :icon_flower:

Those who are His are Annoited unto works, His works through US made manifest, for the fullfilment of His purpose, it seems babes are very much stuck in the Earth purposing themselves with the Literal..ie fundaments...I see a Cycle and progression  :icon_flower:

.

Not sure of what you mean bro, but I beleive that which is done in the spirit will be manifest in the earth.
yes bro thats what I reffering to ,through Us into the Earth, I just related Babes to thier starting place, young in the faith moving towards Sonship,.. :thumbsup:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #308 on: March 06, 2009, 09:18:28 PM »
Christ is the copyright holder of all good deeds done by men.

I love it!

Yes, Molly and I think if everyone thinks that way they will start to understand many things more that they read in scripture.  We as man are always wicked creatures.  This is why when Christ is alive in us - we are no more because we will no longer seek to perform the pleasure of our flesh that we did in the past but instead the lusts of our flesh will be overcome by the New man in us which is Christ.  This is HOW we are saved (it is Christ putting down our lusts in our own flesh by His very nature in us).  This can ONLY be accomplish by Faith.  This is all logical and rational when we understand that Jesus Christ is the copyright owner of all good works.  That is why this question of works is so critical to undertand.

Paul

Amen  :thumbsup:

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #309 on: March 06, 2009, 09:20:23 PM »
:cloud9: Paul, I'm not offended by what you're sharing because I think you've seen something. I only wish you would share in more detail. Blessings....

Cardinal, essentially we are of Christ (Christians) if we are becoming the Christ.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #310 on: March 06, 2009, 09:23:59 PM »
:cloud9: Paul, I'm not offended by what you're sharing because I think you've seen something. I only wish you would share in more detail. Blessings....

Cardinal, essentially we are of Christ (Christians) if we are becoming the Christ.

Paul
wow..I just said that on another thread.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #311 on: March 06, 2009, 09:24:48 PM »
Some preferred the equation representation to understanding this.  So let's go that approach and see who disagrees.  Here is the equation that I understand:

Faith + works (not ours but His) -> (recursive = Growing in Grace) -> salvation!

What this equation above means that when we have Faith and Good works we access Grace.  And when we are in Grace and continue to have Faith + works we will Grow in Grace.  And if we endure and continue in this process till the end, then we shall receive salvation.

Paul
This is why the one that has much has more given to him.

You could call it the cycle of salvation--a whirlwind--the staircase to heaven.

Molly, is what I'm saying starting to make sense.  I'm trying to find the best ways to present this.  I went the equation route because you had a good idea in putting it in that form.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #312 on: March 06, 2009, 09:26:15 PM »
Some preferred the equation representation to understanding this.  So let's go that approach and see who disagrees.  Here is the equation that I understand:

Faith + works (not ours but His) -> (recursive = Growing in Grace) -> salvation!

What this equation above means that when we have Faith and Good works we access Grace.  And when we are in Grace and continue to have Faith + works we will Grow in Grace.  And if we endure and continue in this process till the end, then we shall receive salvation.

Paul
This is why the one that has much has more given to him.

You could call it the cycle of salvation--a whirlwind--the staircase to heaven.

Molly, is what I'm saying starting to make sense.  I'm trying to find the best ways to present this.  I went the equation route because you had a good idea in putting it in that form.

Paul
Yes, it's making sense to me.  But, then, I like equations.

It's not something that I have thought about before, and it's a little surprising.  But, I agree with you.

In a sense, I think you could say salvation is a dynamic process.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #313 on: March 06, 2009, 09:27:50 PM »
Amen  :thumbsup:

Praise Jesus, pneuma!  I'm really getting my eyes watered up in the hopes that finally some are understanding this.

Paul

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #314 on: March 06, 2009, 09:28:42 PM »
:cloud9: Paul, I'm not offended by what you're sharing because I think you've seen something. I only wish you would share in more detail. Blessings....

Cardinal, essentially we are of Christ (Christians) if we are becoming the Christ.

Paul
wow..I just said that on another thread.

molly
i think a few people are saying the same thing..just wording it differently.. :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #315 on: March 06, 2009, 09:30:46 PM »
:cloud9: Paul, I'm not offended by what you're sharing because I think you've seen something. I only wish you would share in more detail. Blessings....

Cardinal, essentially we are of Christ (Christians) if we are becoming the Christ.

Paul
wow..I just said that on another thread.

molly
i think a few people are saying the same thing..just wording it differently.. :icon_flower:
well, for sure.

But, why isn't this taught in churches?

I said it to a minister a few months ago and she looked at me like I was the devil's spawn.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #316 on: March 06, 2009, 09:31:45 PM »
Yes, it's making sense to me.  But, then, I like equations.

It's not something that I have thought about before, and it's a little surprising.  But, I agree with you.

In a sense, I think you could say salvation is a dynamic process.

Great Molly, I may be bearing fruit!  Of course all glory goes to the vine (Jesus Christ).  You are right also - it is a dynamic process.  Please read the parable of the pounds (talents) which you can find at Luke 19:12.   When you read that you will realize that we must INCREASE.

Paul

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #317 on: March 06, 2009, 09:35:45 PM »
:cloud9: Paul, I'm not offended by what you're sharing because I think you've seen something. I only wish you would share in more detail. Blessings....

Cardinal, essentially we are of Christ (Christians) if we are becoming the Christ.

Paul
wow..I just said that on another thread.

molly
i think a few people are saying the same thing..just wording it differently.. :icon_flower:
well, for sure.

But, why isn't this taught in churches?

I said it to a minister a few months ago and she looked at me like I was the devil's spawn.

cos theres still very earthly sis....Tis a progression isnt it?

That which carnal cant really grasp and move forward...relatively speaking I see them as Babes... :icon_flower:

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #318 on: March 06, 2009, 09:37:00 PM »
Yes, it's making sense to me.  But, then, I like equations.

It's not something that I have thought about before, and it's a little surprising.  But, I agree with you.

In a sense, I think you could say salvation is a dynamic process.

Great Molly, I may be bearing fruit!  Of course all glory goes to the vine (Jesus Christ).  You are right also - it is a dynamic process.  Please read the parable of the pounds (talents) which you can find at Luke 19:12.   When you read that you will realize that we must INCREASE.

Paul
This, also, is how we become saviors ourselves.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #319 on: March 06, 2009, 09:38:42 PM »
:cloud9: Paul, I'm not offended by what you're sharing because I think you've seen something. I only wish you would share in more detail. Blessings....

Cardinal, essentially we are of Christ (Christians) if we are becoming the Christ.

Paul
wow..I just said that on another thread.

molly
i think a few people are saying the same thing..just wording it differently.. :icon_flower:
well, for sure.

But, why isn't this taught in churches?

I said it to a minister a few months ago and she looked at me like I was the devil's spawn.

cos theres still very earthly sis....Tis a progression isnt it?

That which carnal cant really grasp and move forward...relatively speaking I see them as Babes... :icon_flower:


But, it's all there in the Bible. All you have to do is read the Bible--to know it intellectually, at least.

Don't they read the Bible?

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #320 on: March 06, 2009, 09:42:08 PM »
This, also, is how we become saviors ourselves.

Yes that is technically true but our flesh still exists and may take occasion to become prideful if we say that to much so let's continue to give Christ that glory in us.

We haven't talked specifically much about the Holy Spirit and the role of that Spirit in this.  I hope to start another thread soon about that.  I want to talk about how a Word is the wind that transforms us.

Paul

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #321 on: March 06, 2009, 09:43:46 PM »
Come on Molly..read Nats context post ..Tis the Spirit which RISES those words to Life ,many still see death and darkness, doom and Gloom...HE REVEALS these things ,and its always to His Glory, it  ALWAYS goes back to HIM :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #322 on: March 06, 2009, 09:48:22 PM »
Thank you.  I have friends that exhibit these traits but according to many would not be considered christians.  The latter part of verse 23 is the key that gets ignored.

Paul, did those friends atrribute those good things to Christ or did they attribute them not to Christ.  Because if they attributed them to Christ then they indeed were Good things but if they didn't then they robbed Christ of His Glory and thus they were not Good things.  Christ is the Copyright holder of all GOOD deeds that men can perform.

Paul

So Paul . .according to you and this theory here . . .Mother Theresa that impacted the world with her outreach . . you're saying if she doesn't acknowledge God, or Christ as her savior . .all of those wonderful things she did were actually bad things???

Secondly . . . the recipe of righteousness . . .it doesn't start with faith for me at all guys . . .it starts with grace.  Remember . . .man wasn't even around when the decision was made to create him . . .Grace ignites faith . . faith births response to that grace.  I still don't think that the response of others should be what we are looking at in others.  Not everyone's nature is the same, so even though two people may recieve the same exact salvation, their personalities will dictate what kind of response they will have to that salvation.

The purpose of knowing the fruit of another is not to judge whether or not there salvation is real . . .but that their message is pure . . .that whole thing is about discerning false prophets . ..not brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #323 on: March 06, 2009, 09:51:33 PM »
Come on Molly..read Nats context post ..Tis the Spirit which RISES those words to Life ,many still see death and darkness, doom and Gloom...HE REVEALS these things ,and its always to His Glory, it  ALWAYS goes back to HIM :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance:
Are you saying that we cannot understand that, even on an intellectual level, without the Holy Spirit?

I'm not disputing that, I'm just trying to figure out what is going on.

Jesus said to the Pharisees--you slam the door to the kingdom in their faces--as though the Pharisees were doing it on purpose.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 10:01:23 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #324 on: March 06, 2009, 09:55:45 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
So Paul . .according to you and this theory here . . .Mother Theresa that impacted the world with her outreach . . you're saying if she doesn't acknowledge God, or Christ as her savior . .all of those wonderful things she did were actually bad things???

Mother Theresa is an interesting case.  Personally, I find her a little creepy, even before she revealed that she hadn't felt the presence of Jesus in 40 years or whatever it was.

I am just grateful that I was not at her mercy in one of her hostels--where people lay on the floor dying.

I wouldn't wish that on my dog.


« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 10:02:30 PM by Molly »