Author Topic: Works  (Read 111908 times)

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Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #275 on: March 06, 2009, 05:55:36 PM »

Since Jesus talks about matters of the heart which is not readily seen by you, how does that factor in to the equation?

It is what comes out of the heart that defiles a man.  That is what Jesus is inspecting.

Paul


How are you to recognize that?  What is the fruit?  

Give an example.



Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #276 on: March 06, 2009, 05:55:43 PM »
Yes, a different mind, not the carnal mind, but the mind of Christ.

Yes, Molly.  So if we have the mind of Christ and Christ had no sin - can we really say that if we continue to practice sin that we are of Christ? - the answer is no.  We would be the servant of sin if we practiced sin.

Paul
Yes, I agree.  But, my experience of it is that I am often in the mind of Christ, but not always.

For me it's a sweet spot which I find through daily exercise--renewing.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #277 on: March 06, 2009, 06:02:31 PM »

Since Jesus talks about matters of the heart which is not readily seen by you, how does that factor in to the equation?

It is what comes out of the heart that defiles a man.  That is what Jesus is inspecting.

Paul
We can't see the heart, but we can see the fruit.  That's why he tells us to look for the fruit.  By the fruit, you will know the man.

A fig tree does not produce thistles.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #278 on: March 06, 2009, 06:12:29 PM »

Since Jesus talks about matters of the heart which is not readily seen by you, how does that factor in to the equation?

It is what comes out of the heart that defiles a man.  That is what Jesus is inspecting.

Paul
We can't see the heart, but we can see the fruit.  That's why he tells us to look for the fruit.  By the fruit, you will know the man.

A fig tree does not produce thistles.


Examples.    I can read scripture and read  "you shall know them by their fruit" and people can repeat it and repeat it. 

Examples please of this thing that you cannot see in the heart but you will know the man by.



Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #279 on: March 06, 2009, 06:19:56 PM »

Since Jesus talks about matters of the heart which is not readily seen by you, how does that factor in to the equation?

It is what comes out of the heart that defiles a man.  That is what Jesus is inspecting.

Paul
We can't see the heart, but we can see the fruit.  That's why he tells us to look for the fruit.  By the fruit, you will know the man.

A fig tree does not produce thistles.


Examples.    I can read scripture and read  "you shall know them by their fruit" and people can repeat it and repeat it. 

Examples please of this thing that you cannot see in the heart but you will know the man by.




Ephesians 5:9
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth)



22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


--Gal 5

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #280 on: March 06, 2009, 06:23:14 PM »
Ephesians 5:9
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth)



22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


--Gal 5



Thank you.  I have friends that exhibit these traits but according to many would not be considered christians.  The latter part of verse 23 is the key that gets ignored.


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #281 on: March 06, 2009, 06:28:36 PM »
 :cloud9: I think I see where you're coming from with this, Paul. Relate this to Noah finding GRACE in God's eyes, if you would, please. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #282 on: March 06, 2009, 06:30:14 PM »
What is the purpose of the observation?  So you can go tell them their fruitless?  Or so that you yourself use wisdom and love as you approach them . . .and knowing they may be fruitless, you don't receive something from them that would cause you're own relationship to stumble . . .

This idea that we're to make it our business and calling to point out the fruitlessness in others, has red flags all over it.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #283 on: March 06, 2009, 06:36:32 PM »
What is the purpose of the observation?  So you can go tell them their fruitless?  Or so that you yourself use wisdom and love as you approach them . . .and knowing they may be fruitless, you don't receive something from them that would cause you're own relationship to stumble . . .

This idea that we're to make it our business and calling to point out the fruitlessness in others, has red flags all over it.
well, I think he is pointing it out to us for our own protection, so we know what we are dealing with.

My fatal flaw is that I will often ignore the fruit--giving people the benefit of the doubt, or forgiving.

But, you do so at your own peril, I have found out.

It's not to judge the other, but to know what manner of person you are dealing with.

I said to a workman the other day, 'You lied to me.'

He went nuts.  He said, I don't lie.  I said, You lied by omission and on purpose.

wow--at that point, he was willing to do anything to make amends.

But, if I had ignored it, I would have suffered needlessly.

And, I bet he will think twice the next time he lies to a customer because he thinks it is the expedient thing to do.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #284 on: March 06, 2009, 06:58:22 PM »
This idea that we're to make it our business and calling to point out the fruitlessness in others, has red flags all over it.


Yep, people use the verses about works and fruit all the time to decide who is godly and who is not when it is not for that purpose.

People can do wrong things and really mess up,  this pattern of "knowing them by their fruits" has nothing to do with our right to decide anything.

It is so we can encourage even the smallest good trait in anyone knowing that "GOD" "WORKS" and everyone has fruit whether anyone likes to try to find it or not.


Molly your right, we shouldn't just put up with a lie,  but fruit is there in the workman.


Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #285 on: March 06, 2009, 07:01:18 PM »
1Cr 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.


isnt there also a scripture about NOT judging according to appearance?


chuckt
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #286 on: March 06, 2009, 07:11:07 PM »
Oh wow . . .good stuff guys . . . I love what all three of you have just shared . .. I'm not used to having people pick up on the same things so quickly as what you've done . . . tis quite refreshing.

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #287 on: March 06, 2009, 07:15:10 PM »
  It's all the same..weeds and wheat...dead branches and

  and fruitful boughs....these things are found in every human

   because ..that is what   the salvation of sinners is all about.


   the angels must gather out the weeds..the gardner must

  prune unfruitful dead branches  in us. The Holy spirit must be

 given and do the works through our dead[sinful] flesh.Quicken.


   when you walk in faith is it what you see..or is it  the unseen

   When we beleive [have faith] in God's salvation of all

   is it because we see everyone raised,resurrected and perfected

   now?

   I can see the fruit of Babylon...even the denial of the grace

   and salvation of all mankind....I can not gather 'fruit' from

  that..less I gather condemnation and judgement and

   everlasting destruction for the masses of mankind.


   were not to judge by appearance...there are those with works

   'casting out demons in his name etc' that he does not know,

   there are those that have a reputation that they are alive

  but are dead.

   the problem is they work lawlessness when they judge and

  condemn their brothers...the Royal LAW is to LOVE GOD and

Love your brother as yourself.

   IS IT LAWFUL TO KILL OR HEAL

   NOTHING CAN SEPERATE MANKIND FROM THAT LOVE




pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #288 on: March 06, 2009, 07:48:44 PM »
:cloud9: Perhaps what is needed here Paul, is a clarification of what salvation means to you? That might sound simple, but there are varying viewpoints, on how/what it is that is accomplished and when. Blessings....

Cardinal, first off, I believe salvation is to be saved from our sins which lead to death.  I believe that once we have Faith then we receive the Spirit and once we have the Spirit that Christ will overcome our flesh to prevent us from further incurring sin.  If we should stumble and unwillfully sin then I believe God shall forgive us.  If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath.  I believe we can't serve to masters.  Some here believe that Good Works are not required.  Paul says this:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul

Unwillfully sin?  Really?  That may sound good on paper bro, but when I sin . . .I'm not doing it unwillfully . . .it's a choice . ..I will it.  If I didn't will it . . then I wouldn't be doing it in the first place.



Romans 7:15
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 

Hi Nathan, was Paul willfully sinning here or did he sin against/unwilfully his will?

All sin falls under two types, sins that are not unto death and sins that are unto death.

Willfully sinning is a sin unto death. The sins we do unwillfully are not unto death.

So yes unwillfull sin is in the scriptures.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Works
« Reply #289 on: March 06, 2009, 07:52:02 PM »
I believe to preach that we can be saved without the requirement of His works is blasphemous.

"I, see" said, the blind man!

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #290 on: March 06, 2009, 08:15:37 PM »
:cloud9: Perhaps what is needed here Paul, is a clarification of what salvation means to you? That might sound simple, but there are varying viewpoints, on how/what it is that is accomplished and when. Blessings....

Cardinal, first off, I believe salvation is to be saved from our sins which lead to death.  I believe that once we have Faith then we receive the Spirit and once we have the Spirit that Christ will overcome our flesh to prevent us from further incurring sin.  If we should stumble and unwillfully sin then I believe God shall forgive us.  If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath.  I believe we can't serve to masters.  Some here believe that Good Works are not required.  Paul says this:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul

Unwillfully sin?  Really?  That may sound good on paper bro, but when I sin . . .I'm not doing it unwillfully . . .it's a choice . ..I will it.  If I didn't will it . . then I wouldn't be doing it in the first place.



Romans 7:15
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 

Hi Nathan, was Paul willfully sinning here or did he sin against/unwilfully his will?

All sin falls under two types, sins that are not unto death and sins that are unto death.

Willfully sinning is a sin unto death. The sins we do unwillfully are not unto death.

So yes unwillfull sin is in the scriptures.


To say that Paul sinned against his will is to say that sin renders you unconscious and takes over you like it's some ominous evil that we have no power over.  When Paul sinned, he chose to.  And it bothered him because he knew better, but still CHOSE to do it.  And his observation was his frustration of the battle between flesh and spirit that is in him . . .and that battle never ceases until we leave this realm of flesh completely .. .be it by way of natural death, or by way of supernatural transformation into our glorified state at the end of the ages . . .but "until" then, flesh is always going to war with the spirit.  We're always going to "choose" to make bad decisions, choose to give in to the flesh . . .not to mention the times where we flare up unintentionally . . .it's all still causing us to miss the mark. 

That's why I think understanding John the Baptist's proclamation about Jesus taking away the sin of the world is so profound.  It's because in the world, sin still manifests . .but to those who are in Christ . .the sin has no affect . .the power of it has no affect because GRACE ABOUNDS.  And the sooner we get our attention off of the falling down, and turn to the Christ who resurrects . .the sooner we'll get into the freedom of life and reproduction rather than doom and gloom of reproof. 

I pursue patterns in Scripture . . .if I see the pattern, I can then understand the principle.  The pattern that I see with this in Scripture is clearly with the children of Israel in the land of Goshen . . .the plagues came and they were in the middle of it all, but God protected them from all of it.  Noah . . .the rains came, the flood manifested, and Noah, being in the middle of it . . .was protected by the ark of Christ.  So . . .my spirit is in the center of my flesh, my flesh is subject to the natural . . I get colds, the flu, back aches . . .my bones break and my flesh bleeds . . .but regardless of what my natural body goes through . .regardless of what my outer man experiences . . .my inner man is hid in Christ.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #291 on: March 06, 2009, 08:23:43 PM »
Quote from: Paul
Molly your right, we shouldn't just put up with a lie,  but fruit is there in the workman.

well, let's say I pruned a few branches for him. :laughing7:

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #292 on: March 06, 2009, 08:25:15 PM »
Question to all

Do you believe all works are the same?

Do you believe there are works of the law and works of faith?

I ask because what seems to be taking place in this thread, is people keep pointing back to works of the law when those of us who believe in works have stated repeatedly that we are talking about spiritual works, works of faith, works of Jesus etc.  It as though some  can't seem to differentiate between the two.

Jesus said greater WORKS shall ye do because I go to the Father.

Pretty plain imo that WORKS are to be done by us through Christ, yet many here seem to be saying we don't have to do WORKs.

So a simple way to end this debate is to ask all here this question

Do you believe we are to do the greater WORKS Jesus mentioned?

If you answer YES to this question, I don't see how you then can make an argument against what Paul, Bob and I have been saying.  For if you make an argument against what we are saying then you are not differentiating between the two laws.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #293 on: March 06, 2009, 08:31:45 PM »
Both are manifesting in the natural realm . . .both are called "works" and for me, they could be the exact same activity . . the difference is, the motives of the one doing them.  I could be a preacher because my interpretation of certain Scriptures say I should become one . . .or I could be a preacher because I have a shepherds heart . . .either way, the ministry is there and active, but the motives are different . . .if the motive is right, the ministry benefits.

I don't believe tithing is a New Testament requirement . .but say that to the church in general and you'll be martyred for sure . . .but yet I still give . . .my giving is out of the spirit's generosity, not out of the law of the letter.  same activity . . .different motivation.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #294 on: March 06, 2009, 08:45:49 PM »
Examples.    I can read scripture and read  "you shall know them by their fruit" and people can repeat it and repeat it. 

Examples please of this thing that you cannot see in the heart but you will know the man by.


Paul, easy one and I will let you take your pick since there are so many.  Find any thing that Jesus did in the scriptures.  And there you go.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #295 on: March 06, 2009, 08:48:19 PM »
Thank you.  I have friends that exhibit these traits but according to many would not be considered christians.  The latter part of verse 23 is the key that gets ignored.

Paul, did those friends atrribute those good things to Christ or did they attribute them not to Christ.  Because if they attributed them to Christ then they indeed were Good things but if they didn't then they robbed Christ of His Glory and thus they were not Good things.  Christ is the Copyright holder of all GOOD deeds that men can perform.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #296 on: March 06, 2009, 08:50:22 PM »
What is the purpose of the observation?  So you can go tell them their fruitless?  Or so that you yourself use wisdom and love as you approach them . . .and knowing they may be fruitless, you don't receive something from them that would cause you're own relationship to stumble . . .

This idea that we're to make it our business and calling to point out the fruitlessness in others, has red flags all over it.

Nathan, who are we to avoid here in this verse and how do we determine it:

Rom 16:17  Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Paul

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #297 on: March 06, 2009, 08:50:52 PM »
Quote
To say that Paul sinned against his will is to say that sin renders you unconscious and takes over you like it's some ominous evil that we have no power over.  When Paul sinned, he chose to.  And it bothered him because he knew better, but still CHOSE to do it
.

Nathan that's not according to scripture, here reread them

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

No more I that do it but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Now here the crucial part Paul says for TO WILL IS PRESENT with me, obviously Paul did not choose to sin for he goes on to say For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Can you not see that Paul refuses to blame himself here for his sin? But lays the blame squarely where it belongs on the law of sin within him.

 21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Paul say that when he would do good, Paul wanted to do good Nathan but the law of sin held him captive.

 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Do you see this law in his members warred against the law of his mind and by that law of sin took him captive against his will and caused him to sin.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?  25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul sums it up this way So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
Nathan I am not picking at you brother just trying to point out something you might not have seen before.


Quote
That's why I think understanding John the Baptist's proclamation about Jesus taking away the sin of the world is so profound.  It's because in the world, sin still manifests . .but to those who are in Christ . .the sin has no affect . .the power of it has no affect because GRACE ABOUNDS.  And the sooner we get our attention off of the falling down, and turn to the Christ who resurrects . .the sooner we'll get into the freedom of life and reproduction rather than doom and gloom of reproof.
 

Nathan what you see as doom and gloom of reproof I see as liberty in Christ, knowing my sins because of the law of sin in me are NOT imputed unto me, the only sins that are imputed unto us are the sins of wilful disobedience, thus sin was in the world BEFORE the law but was not imputed unto us UNTIL after the DISOBEDIENCE of Adam. That liberty brother, knowing I am only responsible for the sins I wilfully commit.

Quote
I pursue patterns in Scripture . . .if I see the pattern, I can then understand the principle.  The pattern that I see with this in Scripture is clearly with the children of Israel in the land of Goshen . . .the plagues came and they were in the middle of it all, but God protected them from all of it.  Noah . . .the rains came, the flood manifested, and Noah, being in the middle of it . . .was protected by the ark of Christ.  So . . .my spirit is in the center of my flesh, my flesh is subject to the natural . . I get colds, the flu, back aches . . .my bones break and my flesh bleeds . . .but regardless of what my natural body goes through . .regardless of what my outer man experiences . . .my inner man is hid in Christ.

I agree.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #298 on: March 06, 2009, 08:57:30 PM »
Quote
Both are manifesting in the natural realm . . .both are called "works" and for me, they could be the exact same activity . . the difference is, the motives of the one doing them.

I have no problem with that understanding Nathan for some do hold the truth in unrightiousness.

So you not appossed to works, just the motive behind why one does the works.

If that is what you are speaking of I agree, for it is the same law but it is how we apprehend the law is what counts.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #299 on: March 06, 2009, 09:04:56 PM »
Question to all

Do you believe all works are the same?

Do you believe there are works of the law and works of faith?

I ask because what seems to be taking place in this thread, is people keep pointing back to works of the law when those of us who believe in works have stated repeatedly that we are talking about spiritual works, works of faith, works of Jesus etc.  It as though some  can't seem to differentiate between the two.

Jesus said greater WORKS shall ye do because I go to the Father.

Pretty plain imo that WORKS are to be done by us through Christ, yet many here seem to be saying we don't have to do WORKs.

So a simple way to end this debate is to ask all here this question

Do you believe we are to do the greater WORKS Jesus mentioned?

If you answer YES to this question, I don't see how you then can make an argument against what Paul, Bob and I have been saying.  For if you make an argument against what we are saying then you are not differentiating between the two laws.

Scott :icon_flower:

Those who are His are Annoited unto works, His works through US made manifest, for the fullfilment of His purpose, it seems babes are very much stuck in the Earth purposing themselves with the Literal..ie fundaments...I see a Cycle and progression  :icon_flower:

.
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.