Works

[trettep]

What bothers me with your line of questioning Paul is that your emphasis is on the natural manifestation rather than the spiritual transformation . . . and being a transparent person (purposefully) my frustrations with that tend to spill over into my tone as I post.  No condemnation mind you   . . .  but it just appears you're set on proving something that just seems to be of little relevance when pursuing Christ. . .again, this is just my personal opinion . . .I'm not trying to speak on behalf of everyone else.

Nathan, many don't like my position.  The majority doesn't like my position but that is what I expect.  I don't actually consider it MY position.  I believe it is the position of Jesus Christ that we are to His works.  I believe to preach that we can be saved without the requirement of His works is blasphemous.

Paul

[Nathan]

Nathan, do  you believe that Jesus followed the Law?

Paul

Sigh . . . I'll bite . . .

No.

Ok, Nathan, then tell me how Jesus was without sin and also how was He righteous if He didn't follow the Law.

Paul
[/quote]

Jesus was without sin because he was not bound by the law.  It is the law that gives sin it's strength.  Following the law does NOT give you righteousness.  You are righteous because God declared it over you.  Abraham was declared as righteous because God declared it.  God declared it because Abraham "believed" . . .there's your works . . .it's simply believing in the one who fulfilled what you're seemingly trying to tell me I must now follow.  If Jesus already fulfilled the law, and my faith is in Christ, then there is no need for me to also follow that which is already fulfilled.

[trettep]

I'm not proposing anything.  I'm just trying to figure out how it works.  I've been following your posts.

You point out that Paul receives grace from faith leading to obedience.   And later, obedience leads to works.

So the starting point is faith--which is counterintuitive, but I think that is correct.  That is why James says that faith without works is dead, because faith inevitably leads to works.

Can we both agree then that Faith without works has no profit whatsoever as James shows?  If that be the case then can we see that Faith with works (His works - not our own or those of the law),  provide access to Grace?

Paul

[Nathan]

What bothers me with your line of questioning Paul is that your emphasis is on the natural manifestation rather than the spiritual transformation . . . and being a transparent person (purposefully) my frustrations with that tend to spill over into my tone as I post.  No condemnation mind you   . . .  but it just appears you're set on proving something that just seems to be of little relevance when pursuing Christ. . .again, this is just my personal opinion . . .I'm not trying to speak on behalf of everyone else.

Nathan, many don't like my position.  The majority doesn't like my position but that is what I expect.  I don't actually consider it MY position.  I believe it is the position of Jesus Christ that we are to His works.  I believe to preach that we can be saved without the requirement of His works is blasphemous.

Paul

That explains it . . .I preach that we're called to walk in the spirit . . .not in the flesh . . .I preach that our "minds" are always at emnity against God.  I preach that the flesh profiteth nothing . . .all of which I believe are also Scriptural.

[trettep]

Ok, Nathan, then tell me how Jesus was without sin and also how was He righteous if He didn't follow the Law.

Paul

Jesus was without sin because he was not bound by the law.  It is the law that gives sin it's strength.  Following the law does NOT give you righteousness.  You are righteous because God declared it over you.  Abraham was declared as righteous because God declared it.  God declared it because Abraham "believed" . . .there's your works . . .it's simply believing in the one who fulfilled what you're seemingly trying to tell me I must now follow.  If Jesus already fulfilled the law, and my faith is in Christ, then there is no need for me to also follow that which is already fulfilled.
[/quote]

Some of what you said there I actually agree with.  But consider that Paul says by Faith we establish the Law.  Why would that be?  What Law is He talking about?  And why would the Law be ordained unto Life?

Paul

[Paul Hazelwood]

One of the issues of works is that it is humanized into a perception of what we think everyone should do.

Churches are full of this nonsense,  you should do this, that and the other thing and if someone doesn't see you doing what they think is right, then they have some right to correct you and steer you to doing what is right.

Faith without works is dead.   It is a statement of fact.   It is not about me looking at my neighbor and thinking, "boy, they say they love Christ but I never see them doing anything"

No, has nothing to do with that.   It is assurance that God gives faith and it will not return void, because it  "works" to reconcile.

So even the most dispicable person to us may have their doctrine or theology all twisted and messed up, but that mustard seed is still written on their heart and as much as Christians do not like it God works that faith for his purpose as well.

[trettep]

That explains it . . .I preach that we're called to walk in the spirit . . .not in the flesh . . .I preach that our "minds" are always at emnity against God.  I preach that the flesh profiteth nothing . . .all of which I believe are also Scriptural.

Nathan, the message I am preaching is the works of the Spirit not the flesh.  Remember, I said these are His works not our that we are to perform.  Those that have Christ have a different mind.  They have the mind of Christ in them:

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Paul

[Molly]

I'm not proposing anything.  I'm just trying to figure out how it works.  I've been following your posts.

You point out that Paul receives grace from faith leading to obedience.   And later, obedience leads to works.

So the starting point is faith--which is counterintuitive, but I think that is correct.  That is why James says that faith without works is dead, because faith inevitably leads to works.

Can we both agree then that Faith without works has no profit whatsoever as James shows?  If that be the case then can we see that Faith with works (His works - not our own or those of the law),  provide access to Grace?

Paul

Yes, James is telling us that if we have faith it will lead to certain things--the end point of which is works.

But, in following your posts, there seems to be a progression, that is, one comes before the other--are you not meaning to say that?

That's why I put it in that order:  faith-->grace--->obedience--->works.

In other words, you are not going to have works without the others preceding it first?

I'm not sure how you then conclude that works access grace, though.  It seems grace comes directly from faith.

Maybe you mean that works prove access to grace?

I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.

[trettep]

One of the issues of works is that it is humanized into a perception of what we think everyone should do.

Churches are full of this nonsense,  you should do this, that and the other thing and if someone doesn't see you doing what they think is right, then they have some right to correct you and steer you to doing what is right.

Faith without works is dead.   It is a statement of fact.   It is not about me looking at my neighbor and thinking, "boy, they say they love Christ but I never see them doing anything"

No, has nothing to do with that.   It is assurance that God gives faith and it will not return void, because it  "works" to reconcile.

So even the most dispicable person to us may have their doctrine or theology all twisted and messed up, but that mustard seed is still written on their heart and as much as Christians do not like it God works that faith for his purpose as well.

Jesus said this:

Mat 7:17  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Jesus tells us to know them by their fruits.  Don't you think He is going to do the same?

Paul

[trettep]

Yes, James is telling us that if we have faith it will lead to certain things--the end point of which is works.

But, in following your posts, there seems to be a progression, that is, one comes before the other--are you not meaning to say that?

That's why I put it in that order:  faith-->grace--->obedience--->works.

In other words, you are not going to have works without the others proceding it first?

I'm not sure how you then conclude that works access grace, though.  It seems grace comes directly from faith.

Maybe you mean that works prove access to grace?

I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.

Here would be the order Molly:

Faith with (works = obedience) which accesses Grace.

Consider also that once your in Grace and continue in obedience that your growing in Grace. 

Paul

[Taffy]

Ok, Nathan, then tell me how Jesus was without sin and also how was He righteous if He didn't follow the Law.

Paul

Jesus was without sin because he was not bound by the law.  It is the law that gives sin it's strength.  Following the law does NOT give you righteousness.  You are righteous because God declared it over you.  Abraham was declared as righteous because God declared it.  God declared it because Abraham "believed" . . .there's your works . . .it's simply believing in the one who fulfilled what you're seemingly trying to tell me I must now follow.  If Jesus already fulfilled the law, and my faith is in Christ, then there is no need for me to also follow that which is already fulfilled.

Some of what you said there I actually agree with.  But consider that Paul says by Faith we establish the Law.  Why would that be?  What Law is He talking about?  And why would the Law be ordained unto Life?

Paul
[/quote]

Dont we through HIM in us and US in HIm establish the Royal Law OF which HE IS. = Law of Faith , Law of liberty, Law of Righteousness, Law of Life, Law of the Spirit , Law of God ,if my memory serves.

Its His works through  us made manifest , but its a progression , fruit takes time to develop , its not grown instantly..

[chuckt]

Jesus tells us to know them by their fruits.  Don't you think He is going to do the same?

HUH?

friend,

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


 Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.


 2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

[Molly]

That explains it . . .I preach that we're called to walk in the spirit . . .not in the flesh . . .I preach that our "minds" are always at emnity against God.  I preach that the flesh profiteth nothing . . .all of which I believe are also Scriptural.

Nathan, the message I am preaching is the works of the Spirit not the flesh.  Remember, I said these are His works not our that we are to perform.  Those that have Christ have a different mind.  They have the mind of Christ in them:

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Paul

Yes, a different mind, not the carnal mind, but the mind of Christ.

[trettep]

Dont we through HIM in us and US in HIm establish the Royal Law OF which HE IS. = Law of Faith , Law of liberty, Law of Righteousness, Law of Life, Law of the Spirit , Law of God ,if my memory serves.

Its His works through  us made manifest , but its a progression , fruit takes time to develop , its not grown instantly..

Well there is fruit immediately. Maybe not as much as we like.  But every moment in Christ is a moment that the flesh doesn't prevail over us.  That is fruit.

Paul

[Tony N]

 If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath.  I believe we can't serve to masters.  Some here believe that Good Works are not required.  Paul says this:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul

The apostle Paul wrote:
Rom 5:9 "Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him."

Also, you didn't finish what came after Romans 6:16:

Rom 6:16-18  Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?  (17)  Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over."  (18)  Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness."

We are not enslaved to Sin but to Righteousness. The obedience for righteousness is the obedience of faith or in other word "faith's obedience" which is believe God concerning His Son's death, burial and resurrection.

[trettep]

HUH?

friend,

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


 Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


Paul

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.


 2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

Chuckt:

Joh 15:2  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Paul

[trettep]

The apostle Paul wrote:
Rom 5:9 "Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him."

Also, you didn't finish what came after Romans 6:16:

Rom 6:16-18  Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?  (17)  Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over."  (18)  Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness."

We are not enslaved to Sin but to Righteousness. The obedience for righteousness is the obedience of faith or in other word "faith's obedience" which is believe God concerning His Son's death, burial and resurrection.

What part of what I said is in contradiction to those verses.  Please be specific.

Paul

[Paul Hazelwood]

Jesus tells us to know them by their fruits.  Don't you think He is going to do the same?

Since Jesus talks about matters of the heart which is not readily seen by you, how does that factor in to the equation?

[trettep]

Yes, a different mind, not the carnal mind, but the mind of Christ.

Yes, Molly.  So if we have the mind of Christ and Christ had no sin - can we really say that if we continue to practice sin that we are of Christ? - the answer is no.  We would be the servant of sin if we practiced sin.

Paul

[Molly]

Yes, James is telling us that if we have faith it will lead to certain things--the end point of which is works.

But, in following your posts, there seems to be a progression, that is, one comes before the other--are you not meaning to say that?

That's why I put it in that order:  faith-->grace--->obedience--->works.

In other words, you are not going to have works without the others proceding it first?

I'm not sure how you then conclude that works access grace, though.  It seems grace comes directly from faith.

Maybe you mean that works prove access to grace?

I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.

Here would be the order Molly:

Faith with (works = obedience) which accesses Grace.

Consider also that once your in Grace and continue in obedience that your growing in Grace. 

Paul

Oh.

So it's faith+works (obedience) ---> grace?

That makes grace the endpoint.

Do you think we can be obedient without grace, then?  You mean because the obedience comes from having Christ within us?

Jesus is sometimes surprised (it seems to me) by the people who are healed--that is, he is surprised they have the faith to access grace.

[trettep]

Since Jesus talks about matters of the heart which is not readily seen by you, how does that factor in to the equation?

It is what comes out of the heart that defiles a man.  That is what Jesus is inspecting.

Paul

[Tony N]

The apostle Paul wrote:
Rom 5:9 "Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him."

Also, you didn't finish what came after Romans 6:16:

Rom 6:16-18  Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?  (17)  Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over."  (18)  Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness."

We are not enslaved to Sin but to Righteousness. The obedience for righteousness is the obedience of faith or in other word "faith's obedience" which is believe God concerning His Son's death, burial and resurrection.

What part of what I said is in contradiction to those verses.  Please be specific.

Paul

You said "If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath."

The apostle Paul says just the opposite.

[chuckt]

and? what does he take away?

salvation? allotments?

[sheila]

  How can the blind[unbeleiver] see without an act of grace,first?

   How can the deaf[unbeleiver] hear and obey without an act

   of grace....wasn't it the 'miracles' and 'grace' that was given

  to them that made beleivers out of them? Even God bearing

  wittness through acts of grace given..that caused them to put

  faith in Jesus?


   John 5;24-30....a time is coming when the dead will hear

   the voice of the son of God, and those who hear will live.

  And He has given Him authority to judge because he is the

   son of man

........those who have done good[beleive and put faith in the

    Word] will rise to live.....inner man...new creation

....and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned

 ......[sin works of flesh]old man,Adam


   v45  But do not think that I will accuse you before the Father

   Your accuser is Moses,on whom your hopes are set.

   If you beleived Moses you would beleive me,for he wrote

   about me.But since you do not beleive what he wrote

   how are you going to beleive what I say?


    

[trettep]

Oh.

So it's faith+works (obedience) ---> grace?

That makes grace the endpoint.

Do you think we can be obedient without grace, then?  You mean because the obedience comes from having Christ within us?

Jesus is sometimes surprised (it seems to me) by the people who are healed--that is, he is surprised they have the faith to access grace.

I think the moment we have Faith plus works we have Grace.   And yes the obedience comes from having Christ within you.  You have been paying attention.

Paul