Author Topic: Works  (Read 109075 times)

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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #225 on: March 06, 2009, 07:30:51 AM »
 :cloud9: Perhaps what is needed here Paul, is a clarification of what salvation means to you? That might sound simple, but there are varying viewpoints, on how/what it is that is accomplished and when. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #226 on: March 06, 2009, 08:07:49 AM »

Wha? I don't understand your point here.

Doc, you don't think the doctrine of the Nicolaitans was only applicable to the elders do you?

Paul



I'm giving the definition of what the doctrine of the Nicolaitans was. You seem to be saying it's something completely different. The doctrine of the Nicolaitans had nothing to do with works, at least not in the context you're talking about.


Quote
Jabcat, you don't see where it says that Grace was received for obedience?  That means that obedience had to come before the receipt of Grace.

Paul

Not to jump in for Jab here, but it's exactly the reverse, Paul. We receive grace so that we CAN obey...
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #227 on: March 06, 2009, 08:12:50 AM »
And that's how I was seeing it and didn't express it very well...you have a way Doc, of saying what I'm saying or thinking, but better..stop that  :laughing7:.  Anyway, yeah, what I see there is "not so we're saved, but more so since we're saved"...

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #228 on: March 06, 2009, 08:35:37 AM »
And that's how I was seeing it and didn't express it very well...you have a way Doc, of saying what I'm saying or thinking, but better..stop that  :laughing7:.  Anyway, yeah, what I see there is "not so we're saved, but more so since we're saved"...

Hey no worries man, that happens to me too. I just happened to see the flaw in perception there and jumped in.

I'm sure you'll be able to return the favor at some point.  :thumbsup:
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #229 on: March 06, 2009, 03:29:01 PM »

  No ONE..absolutely no-one has a right to Lord it over

  anyones faith in Christ. in regard to these required 'works"



  what? when? how?  let's see...as a jehovah's wittness you

  needed to attend 5 meetings a week and go out in feild

  service a minimum of 12 hours a month to have an OK standing

   one little old lady went into congestive heart failure twice in

   a month and still got in her 12 hours so what's your excuse?

   I was actually subjected to these parameters of 'works'

   required...but even if I did do this my salvation was still not

  assured.

  It's a matter of conscience people...something between the

 beleiver and God and the Holy spirit.. Other's would be hard put

  to judge anyone's works,I would think, especially since Jesus

said to pray in private and not blow your horn when you do

give gifts of mercy.


 1Cor 13;4   LOVE KEEPS NO RECORD OF WRONGS

   God IS LOVE         LOVE NEVER FAILS


   If you haven't realized that by the blotting out of all

tresspasses on the cross for the whole world

  YOU'LL NEVER KNOW IT


   LOVE ENDURES ALL THINGS

  if someone should remain in a state of sin[don't we all]

  until the death of their flesh...LOVE WOULD CALL THEM

    OUT OF THEIR GRAVES.SOS 8;6


  Some people need to quit worrying so much about what their

 brothers are doing..or are failing to do,

and show some concern for their own actions.


  IF YOUR CONSCIENCE CONVICTS YOU FOR NOT DOING

 SOMETHING."some work".YOU NEED TO HEED IT

  If the Holy Spirit directs you to do a work,heed it


  But, you don't have a right to have your conscience

   Lord it over anyone else .

  Some have one hour of work..others a whole day

  some's work is in the cool of the day..without much effort

  or suffering or sweat...some's work make their tongues stick

  to the roof of their mouths


    John 6;28,29  Then they asked him" What must we do to do

    the works God requires?'   Jesus answered, 'the work of God

  is this;TO BELEIVE IN THE ONE HE HAS SENT"


 WE LIVE AND BREATHE AND EXIST IN A CONTINUAL STATE

                OF GRACE


   one man when healed was told to 'go home and tell all your

  family what God has done for you" that was the work assigned

  to that man...BY JESUS HIMSELF
   

Doing the works of Christ are required for salvation.  Are you saying that isn't so?

Paul

Great stuff you've been putting out there Sheila.  I'm rather baffled by the question here . ."doing the works" . . .the only thing required of us is to believe in the one who finished the works.  That seed faith grows into works of our own . . .but to base my salvation on my works . . . that's then saying that the cross again was not enough.  I'll answer this straight for ya . . . I'm saying it ain't as you're indicating . . it just isn't so.

So what do you do when you see others "not" manifesting your expectation of works at their salvation?  Do you confront them and try to steer them back?

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #230 on: March 06, 2009, 03:32:18 PM »

S

  I beleive it can..... doubting Thomas..put no faith in the

  risen Lord  ' no work of beleif there' no exercizing of faith

  there in that account...but He was not denied access to Jesus-

  grace extended it's hand first...same story with Peter walking

  on the water.

   There is a lot of dead faith on the earth...it is a work of

 GRACE and Holy Spirit to quicken it.

   What do you think dead faith is but unbeleif...

  Do you not know that all have been concluded in unbeleif..?

   The works follow GRACE...they do not always precede...

   except in the case of Jesus Christ WHOSE OBEDIENCE

      WORKED THE GRACE OF GOD TO ALL WHO DID NOT

          DO THE WORKS OF OBEDIENCE.

Sheila, I don't have more to say to you if you believe that Dead Faith can access Grace.  

Paul  

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #231 on: March 06, 2009, 03:45:22 PM »
Paul, I personally don't see those verses saying that without the obedience there would be no faith and grace, and that we wouldn't be saved...as I understand, when we're truly saved, the works of obedience are a result of that....as He leads, guides, corrects us as sons...His grace saves and keeps us..."for by grace are you saved, and that not of yourselves"..."

Gal.3:2-3 "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"


Jabcat, you don't see where it says that Grace was received for obedience?  That means that obedience had to come before the receipt of Grace.

Paul

The obedience of faith is just that. It is putting faith into what God has said is true concerning His Son. The faith is in the genetive So it could be "faith's obedience." It doesn't have anything to do with works but only faith.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #232 on: March 06, 2009, 03:49:49 PM »
:cloud9: Perhaps what is needed here Paul, is a clarification of what salvation means to you? That might sound simple, but there are varying viewpoints, on how/what it is that is accomplished and when. Blessings....

Cardinal, first off, I believe salvation is to be saved from our sins which lead to death.  I believe that once we have Faith then we receive the Spirit and once we have the Spirit that Christ will overcome our flesh to prevent us from further incurring sin.  If we should stumble and unwillfully sin then I believe God shall forgive us.  If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath.  I believe we can't serve to masters.  Some here believe that Good Works are not required.  Paul says this:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #233 on: March 06, 2009, 03:55:01 PM »

I'm giving the definition of what the doctrine of the Nicolaitans was. You seem to be saying it's something completely different. The doctrine of the Nicolaitans had nothing to do with works, at least not in the context you're talking about.



Not to jump in for Jab here, but it's exactly the reverse, Paul. We receive grace so that we CAN obey...

Doc, let's do this.  Let's start another thread on the Nicolaitans and we can present our sources.  As to getting it in reverse then that would include the Apostles Paul - surely you don't believe that.  It was Paul that tells us that Faith is the access to Grace.   

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Paul

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #234 on: March 06, 2009, 03:55:39 PM »
:cloud9: Perhaps what is needed here Paul, is a clarification of what salvation means to you? That might sound simple, but there are varying viewpoints, on how/what it is that is accomplished and when. Blessings....

Cardinal, first off, I believe salvation is to be saved from our sins which lead to death.  I believe that once we have Faith then we receive the Spirit and once we have the Spirit that Christ will overcome our flesh to prevent us from further incurring sin.  If we should stumble and unwillfully sin then I believe God shall forgive us.  If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath.  I believe we can't serve to masters.  Some here believe that Good Works are not required.  Paul says this:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul

Unwillfully sin?  Really?  That may sound good on paper bro, but when I sin . . .I'm not doing it unwillfully . . .it's a choice . ..I will it.  If I didn't will it . . then I wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #235 on: March 06, 2009, 04:05:47 PM »
:cloud9: Perhaps what is needed here Paul, is a clarification of what salvation means to you? That might sound simple, but there are varying viewpoints, on how/what it is that is accomplished and when. Blessings....

Cardinal, first off, I believe salvation is to be saved from our sins which lead to death.  I believe that once we have Faith then we receive the Spirit and once we have the Spirit that Christ will overcome our flesh to prevent us from further incurring sin.  If we should stumble and unwillfully sin then I believe God shall forgive us.  If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath.  I believe we can't serve to masters.  Some here believe that Good Works are not required.  Paul says this:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul

Unwillfully sin?  Really?  That may sound good on paper bro, but when I sin . . .I'm not doing it unwillfully . . .it's a choice . ..I will it.  If I didn't will it . . then I wouldn't be doing it in the first place.


maybe it was a typo?

as for me, my flesh loves to sin.

im reminded of pauls words:

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


QUESTION:

Does God use sin to crush us? bring to the end of ourselves. Does God know what each one of us need to get us feed up?

FREE FROM SIN:

is the one who lust's all day any different from the one who commits adultry?
is the one full of hate any less free from sin than the murderer?


be well yall.
chuckt
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Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #236 on: March 06, 2009, 04:15:13 PM »

I'm giving the definition of what the doctrine of the Nicolaitans was. You seem to be saying it's something completely different. The doctrine of the Nicolaitans had nothing to do with works, at least not in the context you're talking about.



Not to jump in for Jab here, but it's exactly the reverse, Paul. We receive grace so that we CAN obey...

Doc, let's do this.  Let's start another thread on the Nicolaitans and we can present our sources.  As to getting it in reverse then that would include the Apostles Paul - surely you don't believe that.  It was Paul that tells us that Faith is the access to Grace.   

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Paul
We have access to grace by our faith--that's an important point.

Jesus is always saying to people--your faith has healed you.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #237 on: March 06, 2009, 04:40:00 PM »
Absolutely guys . . .faith is the active ingredient to salvation . . .not the outward manifestation of works.  I really like that verse you used there with Romans 7 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: He's saying he's dimensional . . .I never saw that before . . .but he's taking the laws of God . .not Moses or Old Covenant, but the laws of God and applying them to himself inwardly, instead of applying to working and manifesting them outwardly. 

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #238 on: March 06, 2009, 04:58:00 PM »
Unwillfully sin?  Really?  That may sound good on paper bro, but when I sin . . .I'm not doing it unwillfully . . .it's a choice . ..I will it.  If I didn't will it . . then I wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Nathan, Jesus said to forgive them for they know not what they do.  If they were willfully sinning then that would mean they knew what they did.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #239 on: March 06, 2009, 05:00:49 PM »
So faith accesses grace, grace leads to obedience, and obedience leads to works--is that how it goes?

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #240 on: March 06, 2009, 05:01:09 PM »
Absolutely guys . . .faith is the active ingredient to salvation . . .not the outward manifestation of works.  I really like that verse you used there with Romans 7 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: He's saying he's dimensional . . .I never saw that before . . .but he's taking the laws of God . .not Moses or Old Covenant, but the laws of God and applying them to himself inwardly, instead of applying to working and manifesting them outwardly. 

Nathan, do  you believe that Jesus followed the Law?

Paul

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #241 on: March 06, 2009, 05:04:43 PM »
So you're basing willful sin on one verse . . .that originally wasn't in the conversation in the first place?  My testimony is not what my rendition of Scripture is ... it is what I personally experience.  And when I personally experience sin . . .it's a choice . . . if you want to be literal with it, Jesus didn't say forgive them of their sins because they don't know what their doing . . .he just asked God to forgive them for killing him . .because they didn't realize who he was.

Again, this is why I really don't want to get caught up in debates with others who are clearly in a different place.  I've laid my weapons of warfare down . . .and since I have, the active sparring back and forth isn't something I enjoy doing anymore.  I'm sure this is here for only a season . . .but as it's here in me now, I want to be obedient to it . . .surely you can appreciate that part of it.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #242 on: March 06, 2009, 05:05:28 PM »
Absolutely guys . . .faith is the active ingredient to salvation . . .not the outward manifestation of works.  I really like that verse you used there with Romans 7 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: He's saying he's dimensional . . .I never saw that before . . .but he's taking the laws of God . .not Moses or Old Covenant, but the laws of God and applying them to himself inwardly, instead of applying to working and manifesting them outwardly. 

Nathan, do  you believe that Jesus followed the Law?

Paul

Sigh . . . I'll bite . . .

No.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #243 on: March 06, 2009, 05:06:16 PM »
Absolutely guys . . .faith is the active ingredient to salvation . . .not the outward manifestation of works.  I really like that verse you used there with Romans 7 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: He's saying he's dimensional . . .I never saw that before . . .but he's taking the laws of God . .not Moses or Old Covenant, but the laws of God and applying them to himself inwardly, instead of applying to working and manifesting them outwardly. 

Nathan, do  you believe that Jesus followed the Law?

Paul
He doesn't seem to follow it the way the Pharisees follow it--for instance, all his Sabbath shenanigans.

But, then, he's the Lord of the Sabbath, --he can do anything he wants lol.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #244 on: March 06, 2009, 05:10:41 PM »
So faith accesses grace, grace leads to obedience, and obedience leads to works--is that how it goes?

Grace is what saves us via Faith.  James implies that Faith without works can not save.  

Jas 2:14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
 
Molly what your proposing is that Faith without works does save.  Let me make it clear to you.  That if Faith without works can save then it SURELY HAS PROFIT.  James is obviously disputing that.

Paul



trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #245 on: March 06, 2009, 05:14:22 PM »
So you're basing willful sin on one verse . . .

What do you mean by that statement, Nathan? 

Paul


trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #246 on: March 06, 2009, 05:15:46 PM »
Nathan, do  you believe that Jesus followed the Law?

Paul

Sigh . . . I'll bite . . .

No.
[/quote]

Ok, Nathan, then tell me how Jesus was without sin and also how was He righteous if He didn't follow the Law.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #247 on: March 06, 2009, 05:16:53 PM »
So faith accesses grace, grace leads to obedience, and obedience leads to works--is that how it goes?

Grace is what saves us via Faith.  James implies that Faith without works can not save.  

Jas 2:14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
 
Molly what your proposing is that Faith without works does save.  Let me make it clear to you.  That if Faith without works can save then it SURELY HAS PROFIT.  James is obviously disputing that.

Paul



I'm not proposing anything.  I'm just trying to figure out how it works.  I've been following your posts.

You point out that Paul receives grace from faith leading to obedience.   And later, obedience leads to works.

So the starting point is faith--which is counterintuitive, but I think that is correct.  That is why James says that faith without works is dead, because faith inevitably leads to works.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #248 on: March 06, 2009, 05:17:04 PM »
What bothers me with your line of questioning Paul is that your emphasis is on the natural manifestation rather than the spiritual transformation . . . and being a transparent person (purposefully) my frustrations with that tend to spill over into my tone as I post.  No condemnation mind you   . . .  but it just appears you're set on proving something that just seems to be of little relevance when pursuing Christ. . .again, this is just my personal opinion . . .I'm not trying to speak on behalf of everyone else.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #249 on: March 06, 2009, 05:17:25 PM »
He doesn't seem to follow it the way the Pharisees follow it--for instance, all his Sabbath shenanigans.

But, then, he's the Lord of the Sabbath, --he can do anything he wants lol.

I agree with the first part of your answer that He didn't follow it the way the Pharisees follow it.

Paul