Author Topic: Works  (Read 100453 times)

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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #200 on: March 06, 2009, 03:17:26 AM »
 :cloud9: There are works of the Spirit and there are works of the flesh, and there are even works in the natural (such as feeding the poor). As many as are led by the SPIRIT of God, they are the sons of God. Jesus's Spiritual ministry (works of the Spirit) did not start until the Spirit baptized Him, and neither does ours.

Works of the flesh are like laciviousness, lust, coveting, ect.
Natural works are like feeding and clothing the poor, but even these have a Spirit origin, else Satan can even wear you out doing "good works" that the Father has not ordained that YOU personally do. The steps of the righteous are ordered by the Lord, and He orders them through His Spirit.

Works of the Spirit, then are not only Him using you in the gifts of the Spirit, healing, deliverance, ect., but are WHATEVER He tells you do. God has an order and His order is; WHATEVER GOD WANTS.

Hearing Him then, becomes of paramount importance, because to hear to God, is not how we think of it. To hear, means to hear AND OBEY (works). This is why it says be not just a hearer of the Word, but a doer also. Blessings....

"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #201 on: March 06, 2009, 03:22:32 AM »

Thanks for confirming (indirectly) what I said, Card...

That's what I was talking about, Paul.

Doc, I'm saying that a doctrine is not just given to elders.

Paul

Wha? I don't understand your point here.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #202 on: March 06, 2009, 03:36:15 AM »
Quote
else Satan can even wear you out doing "good works" that the Father has not ordained that YOU personally do.
Gosh  :mshock:  as I fall of my chair...       ..twas Talking to T about that a few Hrs back,,were you at the Inn too sis :icon_king:

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #203 on: March 06, 2009, 03:46:42 AM »
 :cloud9: Only in Spirit, LOL..... :winkgrin:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #204 on: March 06, 2009, 03:52:40 AM »
  What I'm saying is you don't have the right to judge

  anyone as it pertains to any works . It's not your buisiness

  What is your buisiness is to see that YOU follow Him.

   John 21;23  Jesus was instructing Peter in reference to

  the 'work'  in his position...when Peter was concerned about

 what would be the assignment[or work] of another...Jesus

  replied 'IF I want him to remain alive until I return,

      WHAT IS THAT TO YOU?

       YOU MUST FOLLOW ME"

   Now if someone does 'fail' to do a work of the Holy spirits

   direction...like the parable teaches in regard to the talents

   I'm sure they would suffer loss, but loose their salvation ?

   for I am convinced that nothing can seperate us



   Have you NOT HEARD ABOUT THE SALVATION OF ALL?


                                               Sheila

  

 
    

    

  

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #205 on: March 06, 2009, 04:02:31 AM »

The issue is not performing righteous works, the issue is you say if works are not performed then one is not saved. That is Galationism.

That is what God is showing us in His Word Tony.  Faith with works is the access to Grace.  Grace is what saves us.  Again, there is no such thing as dead Faith (Faith without Good works) that can provide access to Grace.  Tony that is the message you want me to believe it seems.  You want me to believe that one can just believe and say "Lord, Lord" and be saved.  The fruit of the branches is inspected and what bears no fruit is pruned from the vine.  To believe what your saying would mean that a branch that will not bear fruit is acceptable to God.  The belief that one can be saved without doing Good Works is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.

Paul

If you just read Paul who is our apostle of the nations then you will not continue making such theological mistakes. We are to follow Paul, not Peter, James or John.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #206 on: March 06, 2009, 04:11:03 AM »
:cloud9: There are works of the Spirit and there are works of the flesh, and there are even works in the natural (such as feeding the poor). As many as are led by the SPIRIT of God, they are the sons of God. Jesus's Spiritual ministry (works of the Spirit) did not start until the Spirit baptized Him, and neither does ours.

Works of the flesh are like laciviousness, lust, coveting, ect.
Natural works are like feeding and clothing the poor, but even these have a Spirit origin, else Satan can even wear you out doing "good works" that the Father has not ordained that YOU personally do. The steps of the righteous are ordered by the Lord, and He orders them through His Spirit.

Works of the Spirit, then are not only Him using you in the gifts of the Spirit, healing, deliverance, ect., but are WHATEVER He tells you do. God has an order and His order is; WHATEVER GOD WANTS.

Hearing Him then, becomes of paramount importance, because to hear to God, is not how we think of it. To hear, means to hear AND OBEY (works). This is why it says be not just a hearer of the Word, but a doer also. Blessings....



The works of the Spirit have been here far before we knew of Jesus.  There are only two types of works I see in scripture which would be those of the flesh (which includes the letter) and those of Faith (Christ's works).

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #207 on: March 06, 2009, 04:12:20 AM »

Wha? I don't understand your point here.

Doc, you don't think the doctrine of the Nicolaitans was only applicable to the elders do you?

Paul

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #208 on: March 06, 2009, 04:17:23 AM »
The works of the Spirit have been here far before we knew of Jesus.  There are only two types of works I see in scripture which would be those of the flesh (which includes the letter) and those of Faith (Christ's works). Paul

 :cloud9: I didn't mean to imply that they weren't here before we knew Jesus, as obviously God's Spirit moved in myriads of ways before that. I know what you're saying, and if you analyze it, the natural works I mentioned were also contained in the letter. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #209 on: March 06, 2009, 04:18:25 AM »
  What I'm saying is you don't have the right to judge

  anyone as it pertains to any works . It's not your buisiness

  What is your buisiness is to see that YOU follow Him.

   John 21;23  Jesus was instructing Peter in reference to

  the 'work'  in his position...when Peter was concerned about

 what would be the assignment[or work] of another...Jesus

  replied 'IF I want him to remain alive until I return,

      WHAT IS THAT TO YOU?

       YOU MUST FOLLOW ME"

   Now if someone does 'fail' to do a work of the Holy spirits

   direction...like the parable teaches in regard to the talents

   I'm sure they would suffer loss, but loose their salvation ?

   for I am convinced that nothing can seperate us



   Have you NOT HEARD ABOUT THE SALVATION OF ALL?


                                               Sheila

Sheila, I don't have to judge anyone to know that God's Word tells us that the works of Christ we must do.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #210 on: March 06, 2009, 04:19:50 AM »
:cloud9: I didn't mean to imply that they weren't here before we knew Jesus, as obviously God's Spirit moved in myriads of ways before that. I know what you're saying, and if you analyze it, the natural works I mentioned were also contained in the letter. Blessings....

Yes, correct Cardinal, those natural things would be those works of the flesh.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #211 on: March 06, 2009, 04:25:35 AM »
If you just read Paul who is our apostle of the nations then you will not continue making such theological mistakes. We are to follow Paul, not Peter, James or John.

Tony, I attempt to follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  The same Gospel that Paul preached.  The same Gospel that Peter preached.  You typing to blind eyes if your trying to pass off your division of God's Word to me.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #212 on: March 06, 2009, 04:54:58 AM »
For those that don't believe works are required to be saved.  Why did Paul say this:

Rom 1:5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

If Paul received Grace for obedience to the Faith then why do other claim we don't need to have works (obedience) to be saved?

Why was Paul trying to make the Gentiles obedient?

Rom 15:18  For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Paul

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #213 on: March 06, 2009, 05:06:16 AM »
Paul, I personally don't see those verses saying that without the obedience there would be no faith and grace, and that we wouldn't be saved...as I understand, when we're truly saved, the works of obedience are a result of that....as He leads, guides, corrects us as sons...His grace saves and keeps us..."for by grace are you saved, and that not of yourselves"..."

Gal.3:2-3 "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"  IMO, this verse addresses it.  Blessings, James.

P.S.  I'm not a big arguer...sometimes I think we need to listen and pray more, and insist on our POV less...that's how I see it, and God will show us...
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 05:09:37 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #214 on: March 06, 2009, 05:08:25 AM »
Paul, I personally don't see those verses saying that without the obedience there would be no faith and grace, and that we wouldn't be saved...as I understand, when we're truly saved, the works of obedience are a result of that....as He leads, guides, corrects us as sons...His grace saves and keeps us..."for by grace are you saved, and that not of yourselves"..."

Gal.3:2-3 "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"


Jabcat, you don't see where it says that Grace was received for obedience?  That means that obedience had to come before the receipt of Grace.

Paul

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #215 on: March 06, 2009, 05:11:33 AM »
Hi Paul.  No, not in this particular verse, I don't see it saying that.  I think we could make that next step if that's how we believed, but just looking at that verse, I don't see that's what it is saying.  I could be wrong, I will look at it more closely, do a little more study on that particular passage of scripture.  Thanks, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #216 on: March 06, 2009, 05:13:13 AM »
Hi Paul.  No, not in this particular verse, I don't see it saying that.  I think we could make that next step if that's how we believed, but just looking at that verse, I don't see that's what it is saying.  I could be wrong, I will look at it more closely, do a little more study on that particular passage of scripture.  Thanks, James.

Please do Jabcat.  I appreciate your consideration.

Paul

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #217 on: March 06, 2009, 05:21:53 AM »

  He died for us when we were yet in our sins..an enemy

.what kind of obediance is that?

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #218 on: March 06, 2009, 05:30:14 AM »

  He died for us when we were yet in our sins..an enemy

.what kind of obediance is that?

Sheila, can dead Faith (Faith without works) access Grace?

Paul

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #219 on: March 06, 2009, 05:33:04 AM »


  Really,rather   CAN LOVE AND GRACE FAIL IN IT'S WORK

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #220 on: March 06, 2009, 05:37:26 AM »


  Really,rather   CAN LOVE AND GRACE FAIL IN IT'S WORK

Sheila, can you answer directly to my question?  Can dead Faith (Faith without works) access Grace?

Paul

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #221 on: March 06, 2009, 06:01:37 AM »
Sorry for jumping in, Sheila can answer too  :mblush:.  Again, there's always room for my not completely understanding, but I don't believe our faith with which we believe is "our works".  I understand it as a gift, God giving me the very ability to believe...not somehow me conjuring up a good work of faith so I can get saved...I see it as God's gift to me, both the faith and grace, then He grows me daily from there, which then include works and obedience...still, all His salvation and grace through me, empowering me even to do those works...in Him I live and breathe, etc.  If it was my "live works", then I could boast...and Paul says we can't, that it's not our doing.   And again, this in Galatians, "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" 

I'm not saying I 110% agree with this, but #1 I think it's funny, and #2, I at least s/w see his point.  Martin Zender talks about us "doing God's work"...he says, no what really happens is, we're in God's car.  He allows us to play with the power windows and/or door locks while He drives.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 07:00:48 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #222 on: March 06, 2009, 06:11:43 AM »

  I beleive it can..... doubting Thomas..put no faith in the

  risen Lord  ' no work of beleif there' no exercizing of faith

  there in that account...but He was not denied access to Jesus-

  grace extended it's hand first...same story with Peter walking

  on the water.

   There is a lot of dead faith on the earth...it is a work of

 GRACE and Holy Spirit to quicken it.

   What do you think dead faith is but unbeleif...

  Do you not know that all have been concluded in unbeleif..?

   The works follow GRACE...they do not always precede...

   except in the case of Jesus Christ WHOSE OBEDIENCE

      WORKED THE GRACE OF GOD TO ALL WHO DID NOT

          DO THE WORKS OF OBEDIENCE.

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #223 on: March 06, 2009, 06:27:55 AM »


  Abraham and Sarah's bodies were as good as dead.....they had

 not brought forth the promised seed[grace] of God,yet.

   they had faile to obey

   they proceeded to do this 'work' of their faith...and brought

  forth Ishmael.

   Some times the 'works' of faith lie dormant...and as dead

   the faith weakens..we all sleep......it must be quickened by

   the spirit....such as 'the Bridegroom cometh!" and

    'arise o'sleeper"

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Works
« Reply #224 on: March 06, 2009, 07:18:24 AM »

Having the faith of Christ ...

We seem to be in a period of testing to ascertain our fitness, giving the offender freedom to act, or make a decision; a time to be considerate, or thoughtful by the Grace of God. And the right, power, or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, as we live by the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong. May we merit to always make the proper selection for whom much is given, much is required!

He will rectify the misguided in due time:

"Love Never Fails."

peacemaker