Author Topic: Works  (Read 110946 times)

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pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #175 on: March 06, 2009, 12:03:21 AM »
Hi Paul Jesus while on the cross said forgive them for they know not what they do.

Those who crucified Him never asked for His forgiveness yet He still forgave them.

Yes pneuma, your correct, I should have clarified that more.  God does forgive those that knew not what they do which I stated in an earlier post.  My request should rather be to show evidence from God's Word where He forgives those that willfully sin (knowing what they do is sin).

Thank you pneuma.

Paul

Hi Paul I agree there is a difference willful sinning is the sin unto death and death is the only remedy for it. ( just so you know what I mean I see the DEATH as the LAW, which is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ.)

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #176 on: March 06, 2009, 12:04:14 AM »
The doctrine of Nicolaitans had to do with elders (such as pastor and teacher types) lording it over the laity.

The doctrine of the Nicolaitans is the doctrine of believing that you can be saved by confessing your sins but continue in those same sins.  It is license to sin under the guise of approval and salvation.

Paul

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #177 on: March 06, 2009, 12:04:55 AM »
Quote
I haven't followed the rest of the thread, but these are good observations, pneuma.

I have a sneaking suspicion that we tend to make the same kind of mistakes as to what is for "believers" and "non-believers", but that's a whole other can o' worms.


Thanks Doc. and yes your sneaking suspicion is correct.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #178 on: March 06, 2009, 12:11:17 AM »
Hi Paul I agree there is a difference willful sinning is the sin unto death and death is the only remedy for it. ( just so you know what I mean I see the DEATH as the LAW, which is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ.)

Pneuma, I believe that Law is still relevant - not the Law in the letter but the Law of God still abounds in Spirit.  I believe we establish that Law by Faith in Christ Jesus.  Not the letter of the law.  I also believe the letter of the law was a demonstration of the flesh.  Many will claim that the Law is done away with.  But only the letter is done away with.  For if the Law were done away with then righteousness (which is obedience) is also done away with.  So death is the practice of the letter (or as I would say also the flesh) and Life is the practice of the Faith.  And I agree what the law was our schoolmaster as God's Word shows us.

I may start another thread if there isn't one already on the topic of the Law because  it is so important to the issue of works.

Paul

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #179 on: March 06, 2009, 12:23:36 AM »
Hi Paul I agree there is a difference willful sinning is the sin unto death and death is the only remedy for it. ( just so you know what I mean I see the DEATH as the LAW, which is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ.)

Pneuma, I believe that Law is still relevant - not the Law in the letter but the Law of God still abounds in Spirit.  I believe we establish that Law by Faith in Christ Jesus.  Not the letter of the law.  I also believe the letter of the law was a demonstration of the flesh.  Many will claim that the Law is done away with.  But only the letter is done away with.  For if the Law were done away with then righteousness (which is obedience) is also done away with.  So death is the practice of the letter (or as I would say also the flesh) and Life is the practice of the Faith.  And I agree what the law was our schoolmaster as God's Word shows us.

I may start another thread if there isn't one already on the topic of the Law because  it is so important to the issue of works.

Paul

Hi Paul I agree with you about the law bro, but as to starting a new thread on the law you might want to check with the Mods first as it is one of the topic that is taboo here or at least was.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #180 on: March 06, 2009, 12:31:16 AM »
 Those that willfully sin are those that don't receive forgiveness if they should continue in such sin after they already received forgiveness for that sin.


ok, gotcha there,  what scripture do you use to say this so I can do some studying?

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #181 on: March 06, 2009, 12:31:33 AM »
sigh . . out of context bud.

Please be more specific.  Give us some help here.  Blanket statements that something is out of context are viewed as more trollish then helpful.

Paul

I'm short in response because I really don't want to debate or argue . . . I've shared what I see, you don't see it . . .fine . ..so I move on . .or try to . .

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #182 on: March 06, 2009, 12:32:48 AM »
Hi Paul I agree there is a difference willful sinning is the sin unto death and death is the only remedy for it. ( just so you know what I mean I see the DEATH as the LAW, which is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ.)

Pneuma, I believe that Law is still relevant - not the Law in the letter but the Law of God still abounds in Spirit.  I believe we establish that Law by Faith in Christ Jesus.  Not the letter of the law.  I also believe the letter of the law was a demonstration of the flesh.  Many will claim that the Law is done away with.  But only the letter is done away with.  For if the Law were done away with then righteousness (which is obedience) is also done away with.  So death is the practice of the letter (or as I would say also the flesh) and Life is the practice of the Faith.  And I agree what the law was our schoolmaster as God's Word shows us.

I may start another thread if there isn't one already on the topic of the Law because  it is so important to the issue of works.

Paul

Hi Paul I agree with you about the law bro, but as to starting a new thread on the law you might want to check with the Mods first as it is one of the topic that is taboo here or at least was.
Scott

that must have been some time back , I have no memory of the Law being a Taboo subject :dontknow:

Go ahead start One...im sure Ill get told soon enough if it was , and the worst is..i can close it...

go ahead bro :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #183 on: March 06, 2009, 12:48:48 AM »
The issue is not performing righteous works, the issue is you say if works are not performed then one is not saved. That is Galationism.

Tony, would this be Galatianism if Paul had preached it to the uncircumcision?

  • Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Galatians is about this kind of thing:

  • Luke 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

  • Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

  • Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


Are "being circumcised" and "love thy neighbor" both works of the law in the book of Galatians?  I interchanged them to see how well that would work.

  • Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; go get circumised.

  • Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye love your neighbor as yourself, Christ shall profit you nothing.

  • Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that loves his neighbor, that he is a debtor to do the whole law

  • Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither love availeth any thing, nor hate; but faith which worketh by being circumcised.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 01:13:19 AM by bobf »

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #184 on: March 06, 2009, 12:58:14 AM »
Quote
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; go get circumised.


Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye love your neighbor as yourself, Christ shall profit you nothing.


Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that loves his neighbor, that he is a debtor to do the whole law


Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither love availeth any thing, nor hate; but faith which worketh by being circumcised.

BOB..STOP IT MAN...,I didnt read the part where ya said ya changed it.... :laughing7: Drrrrr

Just for a Mo, IT WAS TIME for some more Tabs,... :icon_king:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #185 on: March 06, 2009, 01:03:37 AM »
BOB..STOP IT MAN...,I didnt read the part where ya said ya changed it.... :laughing7: Drrrrr

Just for a Mo, IT WAS TIME for some more Tabs,... :icon_king:

LOL... those were kind of fun.  I esp. liked the last one.


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #186 on: March 06, 2009, 01:09:51 AM »
 :cloud9: As a side note; Nicolaitans is derived from two Greek words: "nikao", meaning to conquer or rule, and "laos", meaning people as in "laity". When joined, the two words mean people conquerors or rulers.

He further adds to the meaning of this in his response to the church of Pergamos, in which He mentions the prophet Balaam, who got the children of Israel to bring a curse on themselves by having sex with temple prostitutes in their war camp. Balaam was a prophet for hire; think gainsaying spirit, a spirit that speaks for personal gain. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #187 on: March 06, 2009, 01:13:02 AM »
BOB..STOP IT MAN...,I didnt read the part where ya said ya changed it.... :laughing7: Drrrrr

Just for a Mo, IT WAS TIME for some more Tabs,... :icon_king:

LOL... those were kind of fun.  I esp. liked the last one.


:icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #188 on: March 06, 2009, 01:14:23 AM »
Hi Paul I agree with you about the law bro, but as to starting a new thread on the law you might want to check with the Mods first as it is one of the topic that is taboo here or at least was.

Oh, I didn't know that.  Why would a subject of God's Word be taboo?  Any mods want to explain?

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #189 on: March 06, 2009, 01:16:50 AM »
ok, gotcha there,  what scripture do you use to say this so I can do some studying?

Really, it is the parables.  Consider the parable that I commented on earlier.  The parable of the unforgiving servant which you can find in Matthew 18.

Paul


Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #190 on: March 06, 2009, 01:17:20 AM »
Hi Paul I agree with you about the law bro, but as to starting a new thread on the law you might want to check with the Mods first as it is one of the topic that is taboo here or at least was.

Oh, I didn't know that.  Why would a subject of God's Word be taboo?  Any mods want to explain?

Paul

what Twice :icon_king:

Look a little up the thread Paul .....No worries :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #191 on: March 06, 2009, 01:18:01 AM »
Wow, this thread's all over the place  :happy3:.  There sure are a lot of different POV's, and I don't claim to have it all figured out.  I do think though that often, part of the reason for all the varying POV's, is mixing context(s)...i.e., to whom exactly primarily, at the time, was Jesus speaking, and about what?  To "the nations" under grace, or the Jews still adhering to the Law..Jesus hadn't even literally died and resurrected yet.  Who was the Revelation primarily directed?  And again, who were Paul and Peter primarily addressing?  IMO, if we just put all that in a sack, shake it up, and then start pulling out random scriptures here and there to make our points, we end up with real messes...hey, maybe even some new denominations  :laughing7:.  I don't pretend the absolute final word here, but maybe something for us to think and pray on  :thumbsup:.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 01:31:30 AM by jabcat »

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #192 on: March 06, 2009, 01:18:16 AM »

I'm short in response because I really don't want to debate or argue . . . I've shared what I see, you don't see it . . .fine . ..so I move on . .or try to . .

Nathan, I hope you reconsider but I understand.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #193 on: March 06, 2009, 01:22:07 AM »
:cloud9: As a side note; Nicolaitans is derived from two Greek words: "nikao", meaning to conquer or rule, and "laos", meaning people as in "laity". When joined, the two words mean people conquerors or rulers.

He further adds to the meaning of this in his response to the church of Pergamos, in which He mentions the prophet Balaam, who got the children of Israel to bring a curse on themselves by having sex with temple prostitutes in their war camp. Balaam was a prophet for hire; think gainsaying spirit, a spirit that speaks for personal gain. Blessings....

I actually read an early "Christian" writing that discussed the meaning of the doctrine.  I can't say that I agree with the entire document but I remember studying that in relation to the comparison to Balaam and it couldn't find a reason or motive as why something like that would be "made up" in an early period.  So it is the best source I have today next to the scriptures.

Paul

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #194 on: March 06, 2009, 01:33:31 AM »
:cloud9: As a side note; Nicolaitans is derived from two Greek words: "nikao", meaning to conquer or rule, and "laos", meaning people as in "laity". When joined, the two words mean people conquerors or rulers.

He further adds to the meaning of this in his response to the church of Pergamos, in which He mentions the prophet Balaam, who got the children of Israel to bring a curse on themselves by having sex with temple prostitutes in their war camp. Balaam was a prophet for hire; think gainsaying spirit, a spirit that speaks for personal gain. Blessings....


Thanks for confirming (indirectly) what I said, Card...

That's what I was talking about, Paul.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #195 on: March 06, 2009, 02:37:43 AM »

  No ONE..absolutely no-one has a right to Lord it over

  anyones faith in Christ. in regard to these required 'works"



  what? when? how?  let's see...as a jehovah's wittness you

  needed to attend 5 meetings a week and go out in feild

  service a minimum of 12 hours a month to have an OK standing

   one little old lady went into congestive heart failure twice in

   a month and still got in her 12 hours so what's your excuse?

   I was actually subjected to these parameters of 'works'

   required...but even if I did do this my salvation was still not

  assured.

  It's a matter of conscience people...something between the

 beleiver and God and the Holy spirit.. Other's would be hard put

  to judge anyone's works,I would think, especially since Jesus

said to pray in private and not blow your horn when you do

give gifts of mercy.


 1Cor 13;4   LOVE KEEPS NO RECORD OF WRONGS

   God IS LOVE         LOVE NEVER FAILS


   If you haven't realized that by the blotting out of all

tresspasses on the cross for the whole world

  YOU'LL NEVER KNOW IT


   LOVE ENDURES ALL THINGS

  if someone should remain in a state of sin[don't we all]

  until the death of their flesh...LOVE WOULD CALL THEM

    OUT OF THEIR GRAVES.SOS 8;6


  Some people need to quit worrying so much about what their

 brothers are doing..or are failing to do,

and show some concern for their own actions.


  IF YOUR CONSCIENCE CONVICTS YOU FOR NOT DOING

 SOMETHING."some work".YOU NEED TO HEED IT

  If the Holy Spirit directs you to do a work,heed it


  But, you don't have a right to have your conscience

   Lord it over anyone else .

  Some have one hour of work..others a whole day

  some's work is in the cool of the day..without much effort

  or suffering or sweat...some's work make their tongues stick

  to the roof of their mouths


    John 6;28,29  Then they asked him" What must we do to do

    the works God requires?'   Jesus answered, 'the work of God

  is this;TO BELEIVE IN THE ONE HE HAS SENT"


 WE LIVE AND BREATHE AND EXIST IN A CONTINUAL STATE

                OF GRACE


   one man when healed was told to 'go home and tell all your

  family what God has done for you" that was the work assigned

  to that man...BY JESUS HIMSELF


   

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #196 on: March 06, 2009, 02:38:19 AM »

Thanks for confirming (indirectly) what I said, Card...

That's what I was talking about, Paul.

Doc, I'm saying that a doctrine is not just given to elders.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #197 on: March 06, 2009, 02:38:50 AM »
]Feel joy?  Is that what it says?  Doesn't it say 'count it all joy'?  Isn't that different from feeling?

"count" it all joy [Jam 1]
G2233
ἡγέομαι
hēgeomai
hayg-eh'-om-ahee
Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: - account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.





2Co 12:10  Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Paul

Again, that doesn't necessarily mean you are feeling "pleasure" at getting robbed, punched in the face, reviled, or woefully abused.  Let's not get masochistic here.  It is more a comment about what this is all adding up to in the sense of understanding rather than a feeling.

"take pleasure in"

G2106
εὐδοκέω
eudokeō
yoo-dok-eh'-o
From G2095 and G1380; to think well of, that is, approve (an act); specifically to approbate (a person or thing): - think good, (be well) please (-d), be the good (have, take) pleasure, be willing.



The other piece of this is that Paul is suffering for a cause--that also is different from somebody walking up to you in the street and punching you in the face for no reason other than they are mean or they feel like it.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 02:42:19 AM by Molly »

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #198 on: March 06, 2009, 02:42:42 AM »

  No ONE..absolutely no-one has a right to Lord it over

  anyones faith in Christ. in regard to these required 'works"



  what? when? how?  let's see...as a jehovah's wittness you

  needed to attend 5 meetings a week and go out in feild

  service a minimum of 12 hours a month to have an OK standing

   one little old lady went into congestive heart failure twice in

   a month and still got in her 12 hours so what's your excuse?

   I was actually subjected to these parameters of 'works'

   required...but even if I did do this my salvation was still not

  assured.

  It's a matter of conscience people...something between the

 beleiver and God and the Holy spirit.. Other's would be hard put

  to judge anyone's works,I would think, especially since Jesus

said to pray in private and not blow your horn when you do

give gifts of mercy.


 1Cor 13;4   LOVE KEEPS NO RECORD OF WRONGS

   God IS LOVE         LOVE NEVER FAILS


   If you haven't realized that by the blotting out of all

tresspasses on the cross for the whole world

  YOU'LL NEVER KNOW IT


   LOVE ENDURES ALL THINGS

  if someone should remain in a state of sin[don't we all]

  until the death of their flesh...LOVE WOULD CALL THEM

    OUT OF THEIR GRAVES.SOS 8;6


  Some people need to quit worrying so much about what their

 brothers are doing..or are failing to do,

and show some concern for their own actions.


  IF YOUR CONSCIENCE CONVICTS YOU FOR NOT DOING

 SOMETHING."some work".YOU NEED TO HEED IT

  If the Holy Spirit directs you to do a work,heed it


  But, you don't have a right to have your conscience

   Lord it over anyone else .

  Some have one hour of work..others a whole day

  some's work is in the cool of the day..without much effort

  or suffering or sweat...some's work make their tongues stick

  to the roof of their mouths


    John 6;28,29  Then they asked him" What must we do to do

    the works God requires?'   Jesus answered, 'the work of God

  is this;TO BELEIVE IN THE ONE HE HAS SENT"


 WE LIVE AND BREATHE AND EXIST IN A CONTINUAL STATE

                OF GRACE


   one man when healed was told to 'go home and tell all your

  family what God has done for you" that was the work assigned

  to that man...BY JESUS HIMSELF
   

Doing the works of Christ are required for salvation.  Are you saying that isn't so?

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #199 on: March 06, 2009, 02:46:00 AM »
Again, that doesn't necessarily mean you are feeling "pleasure" at getting robbed, punched in the face, reviled, or woefully abused.  Let's not get masochistic here.  It is more a comment about what this is all adding up to in the sense of understanding rather than a feeling.

"take pleasure in"

G2106
εὐδοκέω
eudokeō
yoo-dok-eh'-o
From G2095 and G1380; to think well of, that is, approve (an act); specifically to approbate (a person or thing): - think good, (be well) please (-d), be the good (have, take) pleasure, be willing.



The other piece of this is that Paul is suffering for a cause--that also is different from somebody walking up to you in the street and punching you in the face for no reason other than they are mean or they feel like it.

Molly, then we are to "think well of" those persecutions.  How is that?  I interpret that as "pleasure". 

Paul