Author Topic: Works  (Read 118257 times)

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trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #150 on: March 05, 2009, 08:57:50 PM »
Here's the thing . . . we're all in different rooms in our relationship with the same God.  I'm not in the same room as you . . . and you're not in the same room as I . . .there's no condemnationt here, it's just an observation.  The resistance comes when we try to push others in different rooms into ours . . .and that's what I feel you are trying to do here.  Your emphasis is on the manifestations . .whether they are works unto salvation or righteousness . . . for me it makes no difference because the works that do produce through me may or may not meet your personal standards . . . in this case, I'm guessing it's the latter . . .and as you are proving to be true, those who focus on the works, become judges over others in their works as well.  

Paul states he didn't care what anyone says about him . . .what matters to him is what God says of him . . . I'm going to rest in that.  My only concern is, brothers in Christ become wife-beaters . . .they browbeat the bride into some state of submission in order for their own personal agenda to be met.  If you believe works maintain your salvation, fine . . .please don't make that a requirement of others . .that's all I'm saying.

Your fruit is what is inspected by the Judge.  I'm sure there are those branches in the vine that will say - "Hey were just happy to be in the vine" not knowing that they are about to be pruned for bearing no fruit.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #151 on: March 05, 2009, 08:59:36 PM »
Paul :icon_flower:

 FOR ME- Its very much, a ""Reaping what we sow""

The Lord was Moved with (Mercy) and compassion upon the servant ,another who failed to do likewise to others who deserved the same ,

BUT

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

 Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Are Good works ,mercy and compassion to each man his Brother , well indeed it is. :HeartThrob:

you could say , he failed to FEAR God

.seems other failed in compassion and mercy, also failing to FEAR,

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;  

Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:


 Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:


 Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:


 Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:


 Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:


 Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes( understanding).

 :icon_flower:



Hi Taffy,  thank you for actually looking up the parable and commenting on that.  Yes, you post great comments because fear is a factor.  Fear is the beginning of wisdom.  It is when we realize that we are not under God's Grace that fear should cause us to be concerned.  The servant in the parable had debt (we can all it sin) and realized the King was going to take account of his debt.  His fear caused him to ask for forgiveness and he received that mercy at least until he betrayed the King's mercy.

Paul

What does forgiveness mean?  Does it mean you have to continue to be a sitting duck for the one who is wronging or abusing you? Does it mean you cannot feel any anger about what was done to you?  Does it mean you can't ask for redress of grievances?  Does it mean you can't ask the other to repent?


Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #152 on: March 05, 2009, 09:08:49 PM »
THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING . . .

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #153 on: March 05, 2009, 09:10:35 PM »
What does forgiveness mean?  Does it mean you have to continue to be a sitting duck for the one who is wronging or abusing you? Does it mean you cannot feel any anger about what was done to you?  Does it mean you can't ask for redress of grievances?  Does it mean you can't ask the other to repent?



If the ungoldy wages wrath against you - you are to accept it and not repay.  If you in Christ, then you shouldn't feel anger, you should feel joy.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #154 on: March 05, 2009, 09:26:35 PM »
What does forgiveness mean?  Does it mean you have to continue to be a sitting duck for the one who is wronging or abusing you? Does it mean you cannot feel any anger about what was done to you?  Does it mean you can't ask for redress of grievances?  Does it mean you can't ask the other to repent?



If the ungoldy wages wrath against you - you are to accept it and not repay.  If you in Christ, then you shouldn't feel anger, you should feel joy.

Paul
Feel joy?  Is that what it says?  Doesn't it say 'count it all joy'?  Isn't that different from feeling?

"count" it all joy [Jam 1]
G2233
ἡγέομαι
hēgeomai
hayg-eh'-om-ahee
Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: - account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.



bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #155 on: March 05, 2009, 10:41:32 PM »
trettep, that is what happens when you mix what is for the Circumcision with the Uncircumcision.

We of the nations, if we sin, grace superexceeds (Rom.5:20).

You are still involved in Galatianism.

That's what happens when you believe Christ.  We of the nations, if we sin, we will reap (Gal 6:7).  Grace superabounds by judging and chastening sin, not by turning a blind eye to it.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #156 on: March 05, 2009, 10:43:20 PM »
]Feel joy?  Is that what it says?  Doesn't it say 'count it all joy'?  Isn't that different from feeling?

"count" it all joy [Jam 1]
G2233
ἡγέομαι
hēgeomai
hayg-eh'-om-ahee
Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: - account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.





2Co 12:10  Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Paul

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #157 on: March 05, 2009, 11:07:42 PM »
sigh . . out of context bud.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #158 on: March 05, 2009, 11:08:01 PM »

Now if we forgive once and for all then Jesus would not have answered seventy times seven.



I see your point; I don't think the number of times we forgive is at issue persey.

You say we must ask for forgiveness.   But scripture really does not pose that responsibnility directly to us.   We are to repent, which is not the same thing.

My point with Jesus is that he showed to us  an example  that He did not wait till those who crucified him saw the error of their ways and asked for forgivness.

Likewise   "Do we wait till we are asked, before we forgive someone?

I would answer no to that question and apply that to Gods even greater ability to forgive.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #159 on: March 05, 2009, 11:14:28 PM »
sigh . . out of context bud.

Please be more specific.  Give us some help here.  Blanket statements that something is out of context are viewed as more trollish then helpful.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #160 on: March 05, 2009, 11:23:59 PM »

I see your point; I don't think the number of times we forgive is at issue persey.

You say we must ask for forgiveness.   But scripture really does not pose that responsibnility directly to us.   We are to repent, which is not the same thing.

My point with Jesus is that he showed to us  an example  that He did not wait till those who crucified him saw the error of their ways and asked for forgivness.

Likewise   "Do we wait till we are asked, before we forgive someone?

I would answer no to that question and apply that to Gods even greater ability to forgive.


I don't believe that God waits until someone asks for it either.  My comment in that regard was mostly in relation to the parable that I was commenting about where the servant did ask for it.  And you have stated the fact that Jesus did ask for the forgiveness of those that knew not what they had done.  Can you provide an example of when God ever forgived those that were not desirable of forgiveness?

Paul

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #161 on: March 05, 2009, 11:25:03 PM »
Paul :icon_flower:

 FOR ME- Its very much, a ""Reaping what we sow""

The Lord was Moved with (Mercy) and compassion upon the servant ,another who failed to do likewise to others who deserved the same ,

BUT

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

 Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Are Good works ,mercy and compassion to each man his Brother , well indeed it is. :HeartThrob:

you could say , he failed to FEAR God

.seems other failed in compassion and mercy, also failing to FEAR,

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;  

Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:


 Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:


 Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:


 Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:


 Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:


 Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes( understanding).

 :icon_flower:



Hi Taffy,  thank you for actually looking up the parable and commenting on that.  Yes, you post great comments because fear is a factor.  Fear is the beginning of wisdom.  It is when we realize that we are not under God's Grace that fear should cause us to be concerned.  The servant in the parable had debt (we can all it sin) and realized the King was going to take account of his debt.  His fear caused him to ask for forgiveness and he received that mercy at least until he betrayed the King's mercy.

Paul

What does forgiveness mean?  Does it mean you have to continue to be a sitting duck for the one who is wronging or abusing you? Does it mean you cannot feel any anger about what was done to you?  Does it mean you can't ask for redress of grievances?  Does it mean you can't ask the other to repent?



Forgiveness means to exercise mercy and compassion.. but even so seems HE recompences in the Bosom ,

 
Isa 65:6 Behold, [it is] written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.  

2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;  

 Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people

For its a FEAR ful thing to fall into the Hands of the LIVING GOD

Makes Sense some to me Molly :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #162 on: March 05, 2009, 11:34:10 PM »
And you have stated the fact that Jesus did ask for the forgiveness of those that knew not what they had done.  Can you provide an example of when God ever forgived those that were not desirable of forgiveness?



Ps 130:3 If You should keep account of depravities, O Yah, O Yahweh, who should stand?
Ps 130:4 For with You is pardon That You may be devoutly feared.


Ac 5:31 This Inaugurator and Saviour, God exalts to His right hand, to give repentance to Israel and the pardon of sins.

Ac 5:32 We' are witnesses to these declarations, as well as the holy spirit which God gives to those yielding to Him."



Ac 26:18 to open their eyes, to turn them about from darkness into light and from the authority of Satan on to God, for them to get a pardon of sins and an allotment among those who have been hallowed by faith that is into in Me.'






Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #163 on: March 05, 2009, 11:35:00 PM »
trettep, that is what happens when you mix what is for the Circumcision with the Uncircumcision.

We of the nations, if we sin, grace superexceeds (Rom.5:20).

You are still involved in Galatianism.

YLT:
Rom 5:20  And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound,

Tony, performing His righteous works is not to be confused with the works of the circumcision.

Paul

The issue is not performing righteous works, the issue is you say if works are not performed then one is not saved. That is Galationism.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #164 on: March 05, 2009, 11:36:19 PM »
Hi Nathan just a few comments on some of your posts.

Quote
I'm not so sure I'm ready to jump on this "same doctrine" band wagon just yet either.  In reading through Acts, you'll see there was a great concern about what Paul was preaching because to the Jews it was a very different doctrine than they believed in.  It got so sensitive that Paul had to drop what he was doing, go to Jerusalem and explain to them exactly what he was preaching.  And the argument there was, the Jews felt the Gentiles should physically be circumcised and Paul preached that they didn't need to, but the physical circumcision was a practice that only physical Jews followed.  But the circumcision that takes place in us is one of a spiritual nature not of a physical.

Yes and that is why Paul said there is no difference between the circumcision and non circumcision. Paul preached the SAME gospel to those of the circumcision as he did to the Gentiles and it was because he did that, that the Jews got up into his face. So if a different gospel or doctrine was to be preached to the 12 tribes what in the world was Paul doing preaching to them the SAME gospel he preached to the Gentiles?





Quote
It wasn't what Peter was preaching that was different . .it's what he was "doing" that was in error.  He preached that Jews and Gentiles were both accepted and on the same playing field .  . . this was a huge paradigm shift because Jews always viewed themselves as "above" everyone else . . .Jesus even came to the Jews "first" and "then" the Gentiles . . .but what Peter preached and what he "did" were two different things . . and "that" is what Paul was rebuking him for.

 
Nathan what MESSAGE did that send to the Jews. It is not just, what we say that ministers the Gospel it is what we DO also that counts. So by example Peter was indeed preaching a different Gospel then Paul and that is why Paul withstood him and why Peter repented of doing it.




Quote
The thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

For myself I would not say salvation depends on works as works are the characteristics of our salvation. ( I am speaking of the works of faith) I see the works more as going on to the perfection of our salvation as is spoken to the overcomers.


Quote
The Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

It should be about BOTH bro for our salvation is assured in Christ but perfection only comes by works which is the evidence of our salvation. Tis why James says faith without works is dead.



This part is addressed to all.

If as Tony states that it is a different gospel or doctrine delivered to the 12 tribes then to the gentiles, then NOTHING Peter, John and the boys write relates to the Gentiles, only Paul's writings would concern them. And Paul's writings would NOT apply to the 12 tribes.

Therefore, Peter, John and the boys writings would NOT PERTAIN to any reading here UNLESS they are of the 12 tribes and NOTHING in Paul's writings would PERTAIN to any here that are of the 12 tribes.

This would create the same DIVISION Paul refuted when people were making the argument about who they were of, some said they were of Peter (and according to Tony's understanding that would have to be of the 12 tribes) others said they were of Apollo and other of Paul ( which again according to Tony can then only be the Gentiles) and Paul refuted this by saying Is Christ DIVIDED.

It is the SAME Gospel, SAME doctrine,SAME baptisem, SAME everything else, for if it is NOT THE SAME then the middle wall of partition has NOT been broken down.

So than if Peter and the boys Gospel is ONLY for the 12 tribes then these scriptures have NOTHING to do with YOU unless YOU are of the 12 tribes.

1 Peter 1:3-7
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,  5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Yet how many of YOU that are NOT of the 12 tribes has had their faith tried in the fire.

Here another one that would not apply to YOU unless YOU were of the 12 tribes if the Gospel is divided in this way.

1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.  

YOU CANNOT be one of these LIVELY STONE if this ONLY PERTAINS to the 12 tribes.

For myself I want the WHOLE enchilada spoken throughout the WHOLE of scripture, I don't believe in the this is for me and this is for you division of the Gospel, the Gospel does not set UP divisions it breaks them DOWN.
God bless






Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #165 on: March 05, 2009, 11:39:42 PM »

Now if we forgive once and for all then Jesus would not have answered seventy times seven.



I see your point; I don't think the number of times we forgive is at issue persey.

You say we must ask for forgiveness.   But scripture really does not pose that responsibnility directly to us.   We are to repent, which is not the same thing.

My point with Jesus is that he showed to us  an example  that He did not wait till those who crucified him saw the error of their ways and asked for forgivness.

Likewise   "Do we wait till we are asked, before we forgive someone?

I would answer no to that question and apply that to Gods even greater ability to forgive.

Hi Paul, im getting lost with all these smallers :icon_king:

 FOR MINE-Forgiveness has always Been, But its work was done at the Cross,

We do likewise , the work of It when it comes about, to ever it comes too..70x7   MEANS  always , as mentioned in the last post , FOR mine again, vengeance is His .

too add tot he post of Mollys

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Tis how I see bro :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #166 on: March 05, 2009, 11:40:27 PM »
Quote
There is only ONE Gospel.  There is a variety of audiences to receive that Gospel.  Peter was rebuked by Paul for showing evidence of distinction as if the Gospel was divided.  Let us not jump to the same error as Peter.

Amen Paul for the Gospel is not just in what we say it is also in what we do.

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #167 on: March 05, 2009, 11:43:13 PM »
Hi Nathan just a few comments on some of your posts.

Quote
I'm not so sure I'm ready to jump on this "same doctrine" band wagon just yet either.  In reading through Acts, you'll see there was a great concern about what Paul was preaching because to the Jews it was a very different doctrine than they believed in.  It got so sensitive that Paul had to drop what he was doing, go to Jerusalem and explain to them exactly what he was preaching.  And the argument there was, the Jews felt the Gentiles should physically be circumcised and Paul preached that they didn't need to, but the physical circumcision was a practice that only physical Jews followed.  But the circumcision that takes place in us is one of a spiritual nature not of a physical.

Yes and that is why Paul said there is no difference between the circumcision and non circumcision. Paul preached the SAME gospel to those of the circumcision as he did to the Gentiles and it was because he did that, that the Jews got up into his face. So if a different gospel or doctrine was to be preached to the 12 tribes what in the world was Paul doing preaching to them the SAME gospel he preached to the Gentiles?





Quote
It wasn't what Peter was preaching that was different . .it's what he was "doing" that was in error.  He preached that Jews and Gentiles were both accepted and on the same playing field .  . . this was a huge paradigm shift because Jews always viewed themselves as "above" everyone else . . .Jesus even came to the Jews "first" and "then" the Gentiles . . .but what Peter preached and what he "did" were two different things . . and "that" is what Paul was rebuking him for.

 
Nathan what MESSAGE did that send to the Jews. It is not just, what we say that ministers the Gospel it is what we DO also that counts. So by example Peter was indeed preaching a different Gospel then Paul and that is why Paul withstood him and why Peter repented of doing it.




Quote
The thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

For myself I would not say salvation depends on works as works are the characteristics of our salvation. ( I am speaking of the works of faith) I see the works more as going on to the perfection of our salvation as is spoken to the overcomers.


Quote
The Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

It should be about BOTH bro for our salvation is assured in Christ but perfection only comes by works which is the evidence of our salvation. Tis why James says faith without works is dead.



This part is addressed to all.

If as Tony states that it is a different gospel or doctrine delivered to the 12 tribes then to the gentiles, then NOTHING Peter, John and the boys write relates to the Gentiles, only Paul's writings would concern them. And Paul's writings would NOT apply to the 12 tribes.

Therefore, Peter, John and the boys writings would NOT PERTAIN to any reading here UNLESS they are of the 12 tribes and NOTHING in Paul's writings would PERTAIN to any here that are of the 12 tribes.

This would create the same DIVISION Paul refuted when people were making the argument about who they were of, some said they were of Peter (and according to Tony's understanding that would have to be of the 12 tribes) others said they were of Apollo and other of Paul ( which again according to Tony can then only be the Gentiles) and Paul refuted this by saying Is Christ DIVIDED.

It is the SAME Gospel, SAME doctrine,SAME baptisem, SAME everything else, for if it is NOT THE SAME then the middle wall of partition has NOT been broken down.

So than if Peter and the boys Gospel is ONLY for the 12 tribes then these scriptures have NOTHING to do with YOU unless YOU are of the 12 tribes.

1 Peter 1:3-7
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,  5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Yet how many of YOU that are NOT of the 12 tribes has had their faith tried in the fire.

Here another one that would not apply to YOU unless YOU were of the 12 tribes if the Gospel is divided in this way.

1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.  

YOU CANNOT be one of these LIVELY STONE if this ONLY PERTAINS to the 12 tribes.

For myself I want the WHOLE enchilada spoken throughout the WHOLE of scripture, I don't believe in the this is for me and this is for you division of the Gospel, the Gospel does not set UP divisions it breaks them DOWN.
God bless








I haven't followed the rest of the thread, but these are good observations, pneuma.

I have a sneaking suspicion that we tend to make the same kind of mistakes as to what is for "believers" and "non-believers", but that's a whole other can o' worms.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #168 on: March 05, 2009, 11:46:30 PM »
Ps 130:3 If You should keep account of depravities, O Yah, O Yahweh, who should stand?
Ps 130:4 For with You is pardon That You may be devoutly feared.


Ac 5:31 This Inaugurator and Saviour, God exalts to His right hand, to give repentance to Israel and the pardon of sins.

Ac 5:32 We' are witnesses to these declarations, as well as the holy spirit which God gives to those yielding to Him."



Ac 26:18 to open their eyes, to turn them about from darkness into light and from the authority of Satan on to God, for them to get a pardon of sins and an allotment among those who have been hallowed by faith that is into in Me.'



Hi Paul,

God uses Chastisements to bring about that desire for forgiveness.  But none of those verses say that God ever gives forgiveness unto those that don't desire it.  I believe that God's Wrath will cause the desire for forgiveness and a longing for the Goodness that is God.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #169 on: March 05, 2009, 11:52:07 PM »

The issue is not performing righteous works, the issue is you say if works are not performed then one is not saved. That is Galationism.

That is what God is showing us in His Word Tony.  Faith with works is the access to Grace.  Grace is what saves us.  Again, there is no such thing as dead Faith (Faith without Good works) that can provide access to Grace.  Tony that is the message you want me to believe it seems.  You want me to believe that one can just believe and say "Lord, Lord" and be saved.  The fruit of the branches is inspected and what bears no fruit is pruned from the vine.  To believe what your saying would mean that a branch that will not bear fruit is acceptable to God.  The belief that one can be saved without doing Good Works is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.

Paul

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #170 on: March 05, 2009, 11:53:25 PM »
Ps 130:3 If You should keep account of depravities, O Yah, O Yahweh, who should stand?
Ps 130:4 For with You is pardon That You may be devoutly feared.


Ac 5:31 This Inaugurator and Saviour, God exalts to His right hand, to give repentance to Israel and the pardon of sins.

Ac 5:32 We' are witnesses to these declarations, as well as the holy spirit which God gives to those yielding to Him."



Ac 26:18 to open their eyes, to turn them about from darkness into light and from the authority of Satan on to God, for them to get a pardon of sins and an allotment among those who have been hallowed by faith that is into in Me.'



Hi Paul,

God uses Chastisements to bring about that desire for forgiveness.  But none of those verses say that God ever gives forgiveness unto those that don't desire it.  I believe that God's Wrath will cause the desire for forgiveness and a longing for the Goodness that is God.

Paul

Hi Paul Jesus while on the cross said forgive them for they know not what they do.

Those who crucified Him never asked for His forgiveness yet He still forgave them.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #171 on: March 05, 2009, 11:57:36 PM »
Ps 130:3 If You should keep account of depravities, O Yah, O Yahweh, who should stand?
Ps 130:4 For with You is pardon That You may be devoutly feared.


Ac 5:31 This Inaugurator and Saviour, God exalts to His right hand, to give repentance to Israel and the pardon of sins.

Ac 5:32 We' are witnesses to these declarations, as well as the holy spirit which God gives to those yielding to Him."



Ac 26:18 to open their eyes, to turn them about from darkness into light and from the authority of Satan on to God, for them to get a pardon of sins and an allotment among those who have been hallowed by faith that is into in Me.'



Hi Paul,

God uses Chastisements to bring about that desire for forgiveness.  But none of those verses say that God ever gives forgiveness unto those that don't desire it.  I believe that God's Wrath will cause the desire for forgiveness and a longing for the Goodness that is God.

Paul



What scripture are you referring to that says God will not forgive unless we ask? 


trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #172 on: March 05, 2009, 11:58:30 PM »
Hi Paul Jesus while on the cross said forgive them for they know not what they do.

Those who crucified Him never asked for His forgiveness yet He still forgave them.

Yes pneuma, your correct, I should have clarified that more.  God does forgive those that knew not what they do which I stated in an earlier post.  My request should rather be to show evidence from God's Word where He forgives those that willfully sin (knowing what they do is sin).

Thank you pneuma.

Paul

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Re: Works
« Reply #173 on: March 06, 2009, 12:01:08 AM »

The issue is not performing righteous works, the issue is you say if works are not performed then one is not saved. That is Galationism.

That is what God is showing us in His Word Tony.  Faith with works is the access to Grace.  Grace is what saves us.  Again, there is no such thing as dead Faith (Faith without Good works) that can provide access to Grace.  Tony that is the message you want me to believe it seems.  You want me to believe that one can just believe and say "Lord, Lord" and be saved.  The fruit of the branches is inspected and what bears no fruit is pruned from the vine.  To believe what your saying would mean that a branch that will not bear fruit is acceptable to God.  The belief that one can be saved without doing Good Works is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.

Paul

The doctrine of Nicolaitans had to do with elders (such as pastor and teacher types) lording it over the laity.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #174 on: March 06, 2009, 12:01:46 AM »


What scripture are you referring to that says God will not forgive unless we ask? 



My original comment in that regard was in response to the parable of the unforgiving servant.  God will forgive those that desire forgiveness whether or not they ask so long as they are desirable of forgiveness or have not willfully sinned (knew not what they did).  Those that willfully sin are those that don't receive forgiveness if they should continue in such sin after they already received forgiveness for that sin.

Paul