Author Topic: Works  (Read 115485 times)

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trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2009, 05:05:48 PM »
Good morning paul.

thats why i posted 1 cor 13 and the peter verses about adding to faith till we get to LOVE.

many ""christians"" look real good on the outside, nice and churchy, they have great self control, they dont steal, smoke, drink, fornicate,murder, they give money to the man, they donate time for bake sales and church events, always doing doing doing, yet are DEAD on the inside, full of hate, and torment and fear.

sorry if i was harsh with you yesterday.

God bless
chuckt

I agree with that Chuckt.  I noticed you put Christians in quotes. The real test of our faith is in adversity.  How much do we love others when they hate and persecute us.  That is the real test of our Faith in Christ.  Jesus continued to love those that hated Him.  If we have Christ - we shall also.


Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #126 on: March 05, 2009, 05:12:34 PM »
Seems there are 3 types of works....all mentiond in this thread, but 2 getting most of the focus.

There are works of the Hebrew's Old Covenant Law---by it the righteousness of God and the weakness of our flesh is revealed to us...it is a revelation needed so that we can receive the gospel.

Then there are "good works".  These are things we do naturally as our love for others grow. Many in the church system are falsely led to think that performing "good works" scores them reward points with God....they don't realize how that mindset hinders their faith from growing.  They have "zeal without knowledge"...thinking that "good works" makes one more right with God is performance-based religion...to think that doing "good Works" or keeping the Jew's Law is a requirement is to "fall from grace".
As God transforms us into the image of His Son, we will manifest those works.

Then there are the works that James spoke of...."justifying works".  As the plan God set in place at the beginning of time moves forward through the ages, He has had people doing these works during the times in which they lived.   In chapter 11 of Hebrews there is a list of people who we can see their faith by their works: Noah, Abraham, Rahab, etc.
They all had a knowledge of what God was going to bring to pass during their time....and they worked in harmony with God.
Same thing with Paul, James, and the disciples who lived during their time....they worked "together with God" during that transition period. 
They knew the destruction soon to take place in Jerusalem and the the suffering many would suffer for following Christ.....but they had acquired a strong faith because of their knowledge of God and His plan that spans from the beginning to future time past the time that they lived.  They knew they were called to "labour together with God", just as those in Hebrews 11, to do what God had purposed during their time.  Those are justifying works....we can see their faith by their works.

Now we need to think about what God is doing during our time....I am seeing inklings....anyone else?

I only see two works in the scriptures.  Those of the flesh (evil) and those of the Christ (good).  Following the letter is actually evil.  The motivation for following the letter is still the flesh and driven by fear.  The works of Christ are after forgiveness of past debt and are motivated by love.

Paul

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Re: Works
« Reply #127 on: March 05, 2009, 05:14:34 PM »
 :cloud9: That was an interesting site page, Tony. Never heard of that theory before. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #128 on: March 05, 2009, 05:15:11 PM »
Good morning paul.

thats why i posted 1 cor 13 and the peter verses about adding to faith till we get to LOVE.

many ""christians"" look real good on the outside, nice and churchy, they have great self control, they dont steal, smoke, drink, fornicate,murder, they give money to the man, they donate time for bake sales and church events, always doing doing doing, yet are DEAD on the inside, full of hate, and torment and fear.

sorry if i was harsh with you yesterday.

God bless
chuckt

I agree with that Chuckt.  I noticed you put Christians in quotes. The real test of our faith is in adversity.  How much do we love others when they hate and persecute us.  That is the real test of our Faith in Christ.  Jesus continued to love those that hated Him.  If we have Christ - we shall also.


Paul


you speak truth here, many believers have a form of godliness never really having their faith tested. and they are mean as snakes to those not in their club.

i like this verse:

1cor11:19 For it must be that there are sects also among you, that those also who are qualified may be becoming apparent among you.

KJV:

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.


when we are railed against and reproached, and cursed, we bless and are approved.

grace and peace.
chuckt

« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 05:20:33 PM by chuckt »
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trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #129 on: March 05, 2009, 05:19:45 PM »
I'm not so sure I'm ready to jump on this "same doctrine" band wagon just yet either.  In reading through Acts, you'll see there was a great concern about what Paul was preaching because to the Jews it was a very different doctrine than they believed in.  It got so sensitive that Paul had to drop what he was doing, go to Jerusalem and explain to them exactly what he was preaching.  And the argument there was, the Jews felt the Gentiles should physically be circumcised and Paul preached that they didn't need to, but the physical circumcision was a practice that only physical Jews followed.  But the circumcision that takes place in us is one of a spiritual nature not of a physical.

So in that sense, the gospel was very much different . .the Jews are all about following laws physically, but the message to the Gentiles was that Christ did to you spiritually what the Jews chose to do physcially . . .when Paul finished giving his defense on his message to them, they discussed it amongst themselves and their verdict was . . .

Acts 15 (Message Translation)
19-21"So here is my decision: We're not going to unnecessarily burden non-Jewish people who turn to the Master. We'll write them a letter and tell them, 'Be careful to not get involved in activities connected with idols, to guard the morality of sex and marriage, to not serve food offensive to Jewish Christiansóblood, for instance.' This is basic wisdom from Moses, preached and honored for centuries now in city after city as we have met and kept the Sabbath."


There is only ONE Gospel.  There is a variety of audiences to receive that Gospel.  Peter was rebuked by Paul for showing evidence of distinction as if the Gospel was divided.  Let us not jump to the same error as Peter.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #130 on: March 05, 2009, 05:22:27 PM »

you speak truth here, many believers have a form of godliness never really having their faith tested. and they are mean as snakes to those not in their club.

i like this verse:

1cor11:19 For it must be that there are sects also among you, that those also who are qualified may be becoming apparent among you.

KJV:

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.


when we are railed against and reproached, and cursed, we bless and are approved.

grace and peace.
chuckt


Excellent selection of verses on that topic, praise God!

Paul

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #131 on: March 05, 2009, 05:43:50 PM »
I'm not so sure I'm ready to jump on this "same doctrine" band wagon just yet either.  In reading through Acts, you'll see there was a great concern about what Paul was preaching because to the Jews it was a very different doctrine than they believed in.  It got so sensitive that Paul had to drop what he was doing, go to Jerusalem and explain to them exactly what he was preaching.  And the argument there was, the Jews felt the Gentiles should physically be circumcised and Paul preached that they didn't need to, but the physical circumcision was a practice that only physical Jews followed.  But the circumcision that takes place in us is one of a spiritual nature not of a physical.

So in that sense, the gospel was very much different . .the Jews are all about following laws physically, but the message to the Gentiles was that Christ did to you spiritually what the Jews chose to do physcially . . .when Paul finished giving his defense on his message to them, they discussed it amongst themselves and their verdict was . . .

Acts 15 (Message Translation)
19-21"So here is my decision: We're not going to unnecessarily burden non-Jewish people who turn to the Master. We'll write them a letter and tell them, 'Be careful to not get involved in activities connected with idols, to guard the morality of sex and marriage, to not serve food offensive to Jewish Christiansóblood, for instance.' This is basic wisdom from Moses, preached and honored for centuries now in city after city as we have met and kept the Sabbath."


There is only ONE Gospel.  There is a variety of audiences to receive that Gospel.  Peter was rebuked by Paul for showing evidence of distinction as if the Gospel was divided.  Let us not jump to the same error as Peter.

Paul

It wasn't what Peter was preaching that was different . .it's what he was "doing" that was in error.  He preached that Jews and Gentiles were both accepted and on the same playing field .  . . this was a huge paradigm shift because Jews always viewed themselves as "above" everyone else . . .Jesus even came to the Jews "first" and "then" the Gentiles . . .but what Peter preached and what he "did" were two different things . . and "that" is what Paul was rebuking him for.  He was all friendly with the Gentiles until predominant Jews showed up . .then he shunned the Gentiles and hung out with these hot shot Jews . . .

But I still stand on the fact that there is only ONE gate . .which is Christ . .even though the gospels may vary, depending on the people that are being spoken to.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #132 on: March 05, 2009, 05:55:02 PM »
If they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

  • Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


There seems to be this belief that once your in the vine that you can't be cast off.  That would be taking the universalist position way to far. 

Paul

Question . . .what did you do to become a sinner?
Answer . . .nothing . .you were born into it through the first Adam
Question . . .what must you do to become saved?
Answer . . .nothing . . .you were born into it through the second Adam

You can claim works and outward fruit until you're blue in the face, but that's not a message of freedom you preach . . .Christ freed us from the laws . .including yours . . .you're trying to say grace isn't strong enough, the cross wasn't powerful enough for me to live righteously . . .i must also "do" whatever your standards of being a Christian are . . .and I'm not in agreement with that . . .I believe grace is just that powerful . .my works do not give me my status in the kingdom . . .what does is, my awareness of what has been declared over me . . .all that's required is to exercise the authority that is already provided. 

You want to judge salvation by one's actions . . .yet we're instructed to "work out your own salvation" and I choose to do just that . . .

I also disagree that you can lose the gift that you never earned in the first place.  God's gifts are unrepentant . . .he doesn't take them back . . .salvation is not a reward . .it's a gift and it doesn't get returned just because my flesh acts up after the gift has been received.  There is more freedom here than the natural reasoning mind can comprehend . . . grace is just that great.
:icon_flower:

So what must you do to stay in salvation?  Obviously, the Bible talks of those enduring to the end for a purpose.

Paul

The thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

To think that I 'must' maintain salvation by my own efforts is to say the cross was not enough . . .that it was not as "finished" as Christ said it was . . .and that it was incomplete.

The argument is not that I "must" manifest the outside works . . .the argument is the works manifest themselved "because" of my salvation on the inside . . .it's not about the activity on the outside . .the focus is the transformation that takes place on the inside.

The Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #133 on: March 05, 2009, 06:00:01 PM »
It wasn't what Peter was preaching that was different . .it's what he was "doing" that was in error.  He preached that Jews and Gentiles were both accepted and on the same playing field .  . . this was a huge paradigm shift because Jews always viewed themselves as "above" everyone else . . .Jesus even came to the Jews "first" and "then" the Gentiles . . .but what Peter preached and what he "did" were two different things . . and "that" is what Paul was rebuking him for.  He was all friendly with the Gentiles until predominant Jews showed up . .then he shunned the Gentiles and hung out with these hot shot Jews . . .

But I still stand on the fact that there is only ONE gate . .which is Christ . .even though the gospels may vary, depending on the people that are being spoken to.

Well I believe what we do is a preaching also.  It is still a communication but your correct it was what Peter was doing and not what he was saying.  I apologize if I was giving the wrong understanding.  My point is that there is only One Gospel and the message is only presented differently to the two different audiences (Jews and Gentiles).

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #134 on: March 05, 2009, 06:10:41 PM »
The thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

To think that I 'must' maintain salvation by my own efforts is to say the cross was not enough . . .that it was not as "finished" as Christ said it was . . .and that it was incomplete.

The argument is not that I "must" manifest the outside works . . .the argument is the works manifest themselved "because" of my salvation on the inside . . .it's not about the activity on the outside . .the focus is the transformation that takes place on the inside.

The Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

The moment someone has asked for forgiveness and received Christ they have received forgiveness of their debts (sins).   So at that point they are without imputed sin.  But if they continue in sin they are worse off then if they hadn't been forgiven of their sins.  Consider the parable of the Unforgiving Servant.  The servant received forgiveness of his debt when he requested it but yet he went out and continued in the sin of unforgiving others of their debt to him and then suffered worse as a result of it.   Therefore it is very important to endure till the end.  So Salvation is very much about what must still be done.  Now consider if the servant had received forgiveness for his debts then for him to go out and do GOOD works  could not be because of debt but is because of agreement to the message of the King.

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #135 on: March 05, 2009, 06:55:20 PM »
The thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

To think that I 'must' maintain salvation by my own efforts is to say the cross was not enough . . .that it was not as "finished" as Christ said it was . . .and that it was incomplete.

The argument is not that I "must" manifest the outside works . . .the argument is the works manifest themselved "because" of my salvation on the inside . . .it's not about the activity on the outside . .the focus is the transformation that takes place on the inside.

The Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

The moment someone has asked for forgiveness and received Christ they have received forgiveness of their debts (sins).   So at that point they are without imputed sin.  But if they continue in sin they are worse off then if they hadn't been forgiven of their sins.  Consider the parable of the Unforgiving Servant.  The servant received forgiveness of his debt when he requested it but yet he went out and continued in the sin of unforgiving others of their debt to him and then suffered worse as a result of it.   Therefore it is very important to endure till the end.  So Salvation is very much about what must still be done.  Now consider if the servant had received forgiveness for his debts then for him to go out and do GOOD works  could not be because of debt but is because of agreement to the message of the King.

Paul
trettep, that is what happens when you mix what is for the Circumcision with the Uncircumcision.

We of the nations, if we sin, grace superexceeds (Rom.5:20).

You are still involved in Galatianism.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #136 on: March 05, 2009, 06:57:22 PM »
The thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

To think that I 'must' maintain salvation by my own efforts is to say the cross was not enough . . .that it was not as "finished" as Christ said it was . . .and that it was incomplete.

The argument is not that I "must" manifest the outside works . . .the argument is the works manifest themselved "because" of my salvation on the inside . . .it's not about the activity on the outside . .the focus is the transformation that takes place on the inside.

The Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

The moment someone has asked for forgiveness and received Christ they have received forgiveness of their debts (sins).   So at that point they are without imputed sin.  But if they continue in sin they are worse off then if they hadn't been forgiven of their sins.  Consider the parable of the Unforgiving Servant.  The servant received forgiveness of his debt when he requested it but yet he went out and continued in the sin of unforgiving others of their debt to him and then suffered worse as a result of it.   Therefore it is very important to endure till the end.  So Salvation is very much about what must still be done.  Now consider if the servant had received forgiveness for his debts then for him to go out and do GOOD works  could not be because of debt but is because of agreement to the message of the King.

Paul

If that's where you choose to be . ..so be it.  But it seems to be overriding the power of grace . . .and understanding the relationship of a bondservant . . . Jesus died for my sin before I was even born.  I had nothing to do with it . .I wasn't there . . .not in the flesh anyway . . .in spirit, as Paul states, we were all there.  I'm not going to focus on "how" I must walk . . .I'm choosing to pursue Christ and the areas where I am weak . . . I leave them to him.  Granted, our bad choices do have consequences . . .you become an alcoholic, you become abusive to your body and perhaps those you love around you  . . .but being an alcoholic does nothing toward making me righteous or unrighteous.  

I don't maintain my salvation, I put faith in the one who has the power to do that.  My pursuit is Christ, My desire is to reproduce Christ in others . . .there is no joy in trying to live in discipline just so my salvation remains intact.  Freedom is just that . . .it's being "free" to be who I am and let Christ to the transforming in my nature as I mature in him.  He's the one working in me both to will and to do his good pleasure.  The cup does nothing to keep the contents in it . . . it does what it was created to do . . .if it has a crack in it, the cup-maker will fix that . .not the cup.

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #137 on: March 05, 2009, 07:06:01 PM »
Quote
The moment someone has asked for forgiveness and received Christ they have received forgiveness of their debts (sins).   So at that point they are without imputed sin.  But if they continue in sin they are worse off then if they hadn't been forgiven of their sins.  Consider the parable of the Unforgiving Servant.  The servant received forgiveness of his debt when he requested it but yet he went out and continued in the sin of unforgiving others of their debt to him and then suffered worse as a result of it.   Therefore it is very important to endure till the end.  So Salvation is very much about what must still be done.  Now consider if the servant had received forgiveness for his debts then for him to go out and do GOOD works  could not be because of debt but is because of agreement to the message of the King.

Paul


this is where you loose me paul.

i dont think anything i say here will be of service.

blessings to you.

chuckt
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Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #138 on: March 05, 2009, 07:30:00 PM »
The moment someone has asked for forgiveness and received Christ they have received forgiveness of their debts (sins).   So at that point they are without imputed sin.  But if they continue in sin they are worse off then if they hadn't been forgiven of their sins.  Consider the parable of the Unforgiving Servant.  The servant received forgiveness of his debt when he requested it but yet he went out and continued in the sin of unforgiving others of their debt to him and then suffered worse as a result of it.   Therefore it is very important to endure till the end.  So Salvation is very much about what must still be done.  Now consider if the servant had received forgiveness for his debts then for him to go out and do GOOD works  could not be because of debt but is because of agreement to the message of the King.




Jesus said  "forgive them father for they know not what they do"    It is spoken, it is finished

Are we supposed to wait till someone asks before we forgive? 

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #139 on: March 05, 2009, 07:43:39 PM »
The thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

To think that I 'must' maintain salvation by my own efforts is to say the cross was not enough . . .that it was not as "finished" as Christ said it was . . .and that it was incomplete.

The argument is not that I "must" manifest the outside works . . .the argument is the works manifest themselved "because" of my salvation on the inside . . .it's not about the activity on the outside . .the focus is the transformation that takes place on the inside.

The Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

The moment someone has asked for forgiveness and received Christ they have received forgiveness of their debts (sins).   So at that point they are without imputed sin.  But if they continue in sin they are worse off then if they hadn't been forgiven of their sins.  Consider the parable of the Unforgiving Servant.  The servant received forgiveness of his debt when he requested it but yet he went out and continued in the sin of unforgiving others of their debt to him and then suffered worse as a result of it.   Therefore it is very important to endure till the end.  So Salvation is very much about what must still be done.  Now consider if the servant had received forgiveness for his debts then for him to go out and do GOOD works  could not be because of debt but is because of agreement to the message of the King.

Paul

Paul :icon_flower:

 FOR ME- Its very much, a ""Reaping what we sow""

The Lord was Moved with (Mercy) and compassion upon the servant ,another who failed to do likewise to others who deserved the same ,

BUT

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

 Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Are Good works ,mercy and compassion to each man his Brother , well indeed it is. :HeartThrob:

you could say , he failed to FEAR God

.seems other failed in compassion and mercy, also failing to FEAR,

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;  

Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:


 Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:


 Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:


 Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:


 Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:


 Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes( understanding).

 :icon_flower:


 
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #140 on: March 05, 2009, 07:50:41 PM »
WOOO HOO!!! :thumbsup: :goodpost: :Urock: :rocker

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #141 on: March 05, 2009, 08:12:27 PM »
Taffy, what do you do with "God is dealing graciously with all our offenses

Col 2:13 Who rouses Him from among the dead, you also being dead to the offenses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He vivifies us together jointly with Him, dealing graciously with all our offenses,

2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation."

Looks like a change has occurred AFTER Christ died and it is different for us of the nations.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #142 on: March 05, 2009, 08:13:14 PM »
trettep, that is what happens when you mix what is for the Circumcision with the Uncircumcision.

We of the nations, if we sin, grace superexceeds (Rom.5:20).

You are still involved in Galatianism.

YLT:
Rom 5:20  And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound,

Tony, performing His righteous works is not to be confused with the works of the circumcision.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #143 on: March 05, 2009, 08:22:02 PM »

If that's where you choose to be . ..so be it.  But it seems to be overriding the power of grace . . .and understanding the relationship of a bondservant . . . Jesus died for my sin before I was even born.  I had nothing to do with it . .I wasn't there . . .not in the flesh anyway . . .in spirit, as Paul states, we were all there.  I'm not going to focus on "how" I must walk . . .I'm choosing to pursue Christ and the areas where I am weak . . . I leave them to him.  Granted, our bad choices do have consequences . . .you become an alcoholic, you become abusive to your body and perhaps those you love around you  . . .but being an alcoholic does nothing toward making me righteous or unrighteous.  

I don't maintain my salvation, I put faith in the one who has the power to do that.  My pursuit is Christ, My desire is to reproduce Christ in others . . .there is no joy in trying to live in discipline just so my salvation remains intact.  Freedom is just that . . .it's being "free" to be who I am and let Christ to the transforming in my nature as I mature in him.  He's the one working in me both to will and to do his good pleasure.  The cup does nothing to keep the contents in it . . . it does what it was created to do . . .if it has a crack in it, the cup-maker will fix that . .not the cup.

Nathan, you can't produce Christ in others if your works are after the flesh.  If you preach Christ and say that the performance of His Works are not necessary for salvation then you bring forth blasphemy.  Freedom, Nathan, is to no longer be in debt.  But if you continue in your sins - your debt remains.

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Do you not see that obedience is UNTO righteousness?

Nathan, seriously consider what I'm saying to you.  I'm not preaching our works here.  I'm preaching His works, which accompany those that are in His name. 

Paul

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #144 on: March 05, 2009, 08:31:51 PM »


The debt is paid.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #145 on: March 05, 2009, 08:35:00 PM »

Jesus said  "forgive them father for they know not what they do"    It is spoken, it is finished

Are we supposed to wait till someone asks before we forgive? 


Paul, the prayer of forgiveness was to those that knew not that they were persecuting the Son of God.  God has mercy upon whom He will.  Forgive those that ask for it.   Forgive those that know not what they are doing.  Remember with forgiveness comes release of the offense or (debt).  God doesn't release the offense of those that haven't desired it.  But be sure that God will bring about their desire.  Consider these verses:

YLT
Mat 18:21  Then Peter having come near to him, said, `Sir, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him--till seven times?'
Mat 18:22  Jesus saith to him, `I do not say to thee till seven times, but till seventy times seven.

Now if we forgive once and for all then Jesus would not have answered seventy times seven.

Paul

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #146 on: March 05, 2009, 08:46:18 PM »
Taffy, what do you do with "God is dealing graciously with all our offenses

Col 2:13 Who rouses Him from among the dead, you also being dead to the offenses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He vivifies us together jointly with Him, dealing graciously with all our offenses,

2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation."

Looks like a change has occurred AFTER Christ died and it is different for us of the nations.
The debt is Indeed paid , but it doesnt negate reaping and sowing . :icon_flower:

To whom mercy and compasion was given, when least deserved  , we give unto others.( good works)

He works in the hearts of men and  its there we are recompensed..Lest we turn liberty to licence...Tis His work In and through US, is AS i see it. :icon_flower:  call it Growing pain :icon_flower:


 :icon_flower:



Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #147 on: March 05, 2009, 08:46:54 PM »
Paul :icon_flower:

 FOR ME- Its very much, a ""Reaping what we sow""

The Lord was Moved with (Mercy) and compassion upon the servant ,another who failed to do likewise to others who deserved the same ,

BUT

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

 Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Are Good works ,mercy and compassion to each man his Brother , well indeed it is. :HeartThrob:

you could say , he failed to FEAR God

.seems other failed in compassion and mercy, also failing to FEAR,

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;  

Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:


 Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:


 Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:


 Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:


 Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:


 Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes( understanding).

 :icon_flower:



Hi Taffy,  thank you for actually looking up the parable and commenting on that.  Yes, you post great comments because fear is a factor.  Fear is the beginning of wisdom.  It is when we realize that we are not under God's Grace that fear should cause us to be concerned.  The servant in the parable had debt (we can all it sin) and realized the King was going to take account of his debt.  His fear caused him to ask for forgiveness and he received that mercy at least until he betrayed the King's mercy.

Paul

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #148 on: March 05, 2009, 08:48:24 PM »
Here's the thing . . . we're all in different rooms in our relationship with the same God.  I'm not in the same room as you . . . and you're not in the same room as I . . .there's no condemnationt here, it's just an observation.  The resistance comes when we try to push others in different rooms into ours . . .and that's what I feel you are trying to do here.  Your emphasis is on the manifestations . .whether they are works unto salvation or righteousness . . . for me it makes no difference because the works that do produce through me may or may not meet your personal standards . . . in this case, I'm guessing it's the latter . . .and as you are proving to be true, those who focus on the works, become judges over others in their works as well.  

Paul states he didn't care what anyone says about him . . .what matters to him is what God says of him . . . I'm going to rest in that.  My only concern is, brothers in Christ become wife-beaters . . .they browbeat the bride into some state of submission in order for their own personal agenda to be met.  If you believe works maintain your salvation, fine . . .please don't make that a requirement of others . .that's all I'm saying.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #149 on: March 05, 2009, 08:55:09 PM »
The debt is Indeed paid , but it doesnt negate reaping and sowing . :icon_flower:

To whom mercy and compasion was given, when least deserved  , we give unto others.( good works)

He works in the hearts of men and  its there we are recompensed..Lest we turn liberty to licence...Tis His work In and through US, is AS i see it. :icon_flower:  call it Growing pain :icon_flower:


 :icon_flower:


Outstanding, very good post!  Yes, Taffy, this is why I classify those that claim to be Christians often into two groups:

1) Those that believe we are saved BECAUSE of Jesus
2) Those that believe we are saved BY Jesus.

Both are correct in message but when our focus is only on #1 then we have errored.  The focus should be on #2.

Paul