Author Topic: Works  (Read 114702 times)

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bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #100 on: March 05, 2009, 01:17:11 AM »
Amen Bob as we are all of the household of God, therfore race has absulutly no part in the picture.

Yeah.  I don't know if you're following my discussion with Tony.  Am I missing something?  Is there a difference between "the circumcision" (Romans 3:30) and "the twelve tribes of Israel" (James 1:1) ???

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #101 on: March 05, 2009, 01:38:46 AM »

    this is the works...to beleive in His son....

   you must beleive..to put faith in what the Son has told you

   that your sins are forgiven..that He comes from the Father

  and is giving life to the dead.


   as far as..if you love me you will keep my commands...

   if you beleive in Him you will treasure up His words

   in your heart...

   Now, as it pertains to His return and Him giving rewards

  to those who in faith await Him.......


   I beleive it goes like this.....well done..you have been faithful

  in a FEW things...enter into the joy of your Master.


   NOTICE IT IS A FEW THINGS


   The Holy spirit given was for the manifestaton of differing

  gifts to the body of Christ....some teachers, some acts of

  mercy...some apostle's some prophets, some tongues.

  YOU DON"T SET YOUR OWN STANDARD OF JUDGEMENT

  AS TO WHAT YOUR BROTHER SHOULD BE IN CHRIST


   It is Christ that gives the gifts...what? tell sister so and so

  that does acts of mercy she is not saved coz she doesn't

speak in tongues, hasn't been given a ministry/flock to shepherd

  the gift of healing..or all the other.  You don't condemn a

  servant to His Master..EVER.....


   Go to Walmart...watch the people.....now tell me...who are

  closer to God? Do you know? NO!!......the sinner was more

  righteous in the eyes of God...because He begged for mercy

  not the guy who said ..thnk you Lord, that I'm not like that

  guy over there...I don't  do this or that.  cowpoop!!


      the parable of the prodigal son also teaches us the very

   same thing...over and over He teaches us these things..

   but alas...some do not obey Him...they do not keep His

 command to JUDGE NOT LEST YE  BE JUDGED...they persist

  in judging other beleivers as saved or not...they mark a line

  and say, surely this guy is condemned! will they enter?


  what about this eye for an eye stuff? He told us about it.

  that mentality is nothing but like punishment for like offense

  and what did He have to say about those who commit

  adultery? He said if you kept looking at a woman lustfully

  you were just as guilty as if you had committed the act.

  will they too,enter the kingdom of heaven?


    He wants us to heed His counsel for our own good...

    not because He will kill us if we don't heed it...because we

   failed in some area to keep all that He commanded..perfectly.

   He also gave us these commands so we would recognize and

  know what our Father's mind was on these things. You do

   beleive He and the Father are One don't you?


   We need to be keeping these words ourselves and not looking

 around at our brothers to see if they are ,in order to condemn

  them. John 21;22  Jesus set Peter straight on this matter

  when he told Peter by what death He would glorify God..

  and told him to 'follow me' When Peter asked about the

  disciple whom Jesus loved..'what about him?' Jesus answered,

  'If I want him to remain alive until I return,what is that to

  you?' YOU must follow me."It's not our business


  So, what if you never committ adultery and yet, judge others

   have you fallen from Grace.?.will you enter?.

  what if you pray to yourself...thank you Lord for making me

  righteous...I'm not like these other christians out there..

  I don't practice sin like they do.will YOU enter?


     Weighteir matters of the Law like justice and mercy

   remember your a sinner just like everyone else,you have no

   righteousness of your own...all have and will fall short

  and continue to fall short. You're in the same boat.

   Mercy...those who judge without mercy will have there

  judgement without mercy




    Wise and Foolish builders

   Everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into

   practice is like a wise man who builds his house upon a rock.

   will those who do not  practice such things enter in?


   The woman caught in the act of adultery...surely she is

  condemned? Those of you free of sin..you be the first to judge

   her.Have at it,,,the Lord gives you permission to throw that

   first stone..........

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #102 on: March 05, 2009, 01:43:22 AM »
Amen Bob as we are all of the household of God, therfore race has absulutly no part in the picture.

Yeah.  I don't know if you're following my discussion with Tony.  Am I missing something?  Is there a difference between "the circumcision" (Romans 3:30) and "the twelve tribes of Israel" (James 1:1) ???


No difference between circumcision and non circumcision, Paul even states as much.

Tony follow Knoch teaching on this Bob, although I like some of what Knoch teaches this is one of the areas I differ from his and Tonys beleif.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #103 on: March 05, 2009, 02:20:18 AM »
I certainly don't claim to have all that figured out, but there sure seems to be significant differences between Peter's "doctine" to the early Jewish-Christian Nazarenes, and Paul's "doctrine" to the Gentiles being grafted in...I certainly find it of interest, but again, don't have the full picture of it...another piece of it, it seems the Gentiles were never given The Law  :dontknow:.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #104 on: March 05, 2009, 02:29:07 AM »
I certainly don't claim to have all that figured out, but there sure seems to be significant differences between Peter's "doctine" to the early Jewish-Christian Nazarenes, and Paul's "doctrine" to the Gentiles being grafted in...I certainly find it of interest, but again, don't have the full picture of it...another piece of it, it seems the Gentiles were never given The Law  :dontknow:.

Hi Jab, if you see a contradiction I beleive it to be the error of your own eyes, the scriptures don't contradict each other, but maybe your refuring to when Paul stood up against Peter because Peter fell into the error of the Jews.

No the outward law was not given to the Gentiles, but it was given just the same for they recieved it inwardly.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #105 on: March 05, 2009, 02:31:24 AM »
Quote
We all have done works of the flesh and many as we can see many have performed works of the Christ.  Those works are contrary to each other.

Hi Paul
I agree, if you thought I said anything contrary you did not understand my post.

Sorry pneuma, I didn't mean to imply that you did.  I often just spot things in statements and blurt out a quick thought.  Don't take it as disagreement or anything.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #106 on: March 05, 2009, 02:33:03 AM »
Recieving the END of your Faith, the salvation of your souls ,

For me its how we perceive Who or What the END is , ?

Receiving the END( Christ) of your Faith, the salvation of your souls  and he ,who endures to the END( Christ) will be saved.

mean while Im his workmanship and continue in the faith ( HIS) in what ever this life brings and where ever HE leads me
WHAT WORKS are done are His through me , GOOD works are a Labour of love , as His spirit flows in me, it flows to others ,
To HIM the Glory , ALWAYS :icon_flower:

 :icon_flower:


Yes Taffy, wonderful!

Paul

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #107 on: March 05, 2009, 02:48:26 AM »
Quote
We all have done works of the flesh and many as we can see many have performed works of the Christ.  Those works are contrary to each other.

Hi Paul
I agree, if you thought I said anything contrary you did not understand my post.

Sorry pneuma, I didn't mean to imply that you did.  I often just spot things in statements and blurt out a quick thought.  Don't take it as disagreement or anything.

Paul

No problem bro, just wanted to make it clear I was actually in agreement with what you and Bob have been saying in this thread.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #108 on: March 05, 2009, 02:51:26 AM »
I certainly don't claim to have all that figured out, but there sure seems to be significant differences between Peter's "doctine" to the early Jewish-Christian Nazarenes, and Paul's "doctrine" to the Gentiles being grafted in...I certainly find it of interest, but again, don't have the full picture of it...another piece of it, it seems the Gentiles were never given The Law  :dontknow:.

Hi Jab, if you see a contradiction I beleive it to be the error of your own eyes, the scriptures don't contradict each other, but maybe your refuring to when Paul stood up against Peter because Peter fell into the error of the Jews.

No the outward law was not given to the Gentiles, but it was given just the same for they recieved it inwardly.

Is this necessary?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 03:00:24 AM by jabcat »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #109 on: March 05, 2009, 02:52:35 AM »
I will accept that you have an opinion or understanding, but perhaps present it in that manner.  I never said the scriptures contradict each other.  Contradict is your word.  I believe scripture reconciles when taken in context and rightly divided.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 03:00:58 AM by jabcat »

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #110 on: March 05, 2009, 03:01:32 AM »
I will accept that you have an opinion or understanding, but perhaps present it in that manner.  I never said the scriptures contradict each other.  Contradict is your word.  I believe scripture reconciles when taken in context and rightly divided.

Just a missunderstanding then bro, so to clearify you beleive Peter at one time preached a different gospel the Paul? would this be before he sheets of clean and unclean he saw or after?

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #111 on: March 05, 2009, 03:10:42 AM »
Amen Bob as we are all of the household of God, therfore race has absulutly no part in the picture.

Yeah.  I don't know if you're following my discussion with Tony.  Am I missing something?  Is there a difference between "the circumcision" (Romans 3:30) and "the twelve tribes of Israel" (James 1:1) ???


No difference between circumcision and non circumcision, Paul even states as much.

Tony follow Knoch teaching on this Bob, although I like some of what Knoch teaches this is one of the areas I differ from his and Tonys beleif.

In CHRIST circumcision or uncircumcision is availing anything:

Gal 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love."

the above verse is saying quite a lot different than what you imply.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation."

In Christ there is no Circumcision or Uncircumcision:
Col 3:11 wherein there is no Greek and Jew, Circumcision and Uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, freeman, but all and in all is Christ."

Yet Paul shows the Circumcision still exists in the real world:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

Col 4:11 and Jesus, termed Justus, who are of the Circumcision. These are the only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who became a solace to me."

Tit 1:10 For many are insubordinate, vain praters and imposters, especially those of the Circumcision,

Gal 2:7-9  But, on the contrary, preceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,  (8)  according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),  (9)  and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision-"

pneuma, you have been weighed in the balance and have been found wanting.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #112 on: March 05, 2009, 03:43:35 AM »
Actually Tony these were the scriptures Bob asked me about

Romans 3:29-30
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

James 1:1-5


James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;  3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. 5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Now you might believe that those of the circumcision (the 12 tribes) spoken of in James are different than the people Paul was referring to but I don't. James is talking about those in Christ and so is Paul and there is no difference between those in circumcision and those who are not.
Don't forget Paul also went to the circumcision first before he went to the gentile.

And if James or Peter or anyone else preached a different Gospel then Paul said they were accursed.

Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So you can believe they preached a different Gospel but then you are believing Paul to be in error here.

There is only ONE Gospel Tony not TWO.

And you last statement to me shows were you are spiritually.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #113 on: March 05, 2009, 07:13:51 AM »

In CHRIST circumcision or uncircumcision is availing anything:

Gal 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love."

Yet Paul shows the Circumcision still exists in the real world:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

Col 4:11 and Jesus, termed Justus, who are of the Circumcision. These are the only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who became a solace to me."

Gal 2:7-9  But, on the contrary, preceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,  (8)  according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),  (9)  and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision-"


Thanks Tony, that's what I was getting at.  The salvation was the same for both groups; through Jesus.  But as you say, "in real life", there was a group as I mentioned in my previous post, the Jewish-Christian Nazarenes, who had been brought up through temple worship, circumcision, the Law.  Although now saved through grace by the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah, in reality having spiritually passed into the New Covenant, still, they had walked in the ways of the Old Covenant, and actually continued to hold to many of the customs of the OC and the Law...yes, the Law..and I'm bettin' they weren't able to undo the circumcision of their flesh  :mshock:.  The history of the Nazarenes shows that although they were known as the people of the Way, they still held to many of their Jewish customs...including continuing to worship in the temple!  As you say, and as I was suggesting, primarily, Peter's ministry was to them, including his addressing some different realities that existed for them that did not exist for the gentiles, to whom Paul primarily  ministered.  No difference in What saved them, Who the source of their salvation was...so not a different gospel, yet a different people with different backgrounds, and truly different histories with God Himself, as it were. 

The Nazarenes eventually scattered, the temple was destroyed, and one would think Christendom would have become a more united body..well, enter the RCC, then the Eastern Orthodox split, then the Reformation, then the Baptists, Methodists, AG, etc....Jesus is the gospel, but still, thousands of different viewpoints.

So as I understand it, same salvation, different peoples with different issues...and different primary ministers of the gospel to each.    And today, works are a response to love and guidance, not as a means to salvation..."neither circumcision or uncircumcision"... :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 08:04:13 AM by jabcat »

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #114 on: March 05, 2009, 02:00:54 PM »
thanks. i didnt see that and i agree 100% LOVE fullfills the law.

God bless
chuckt


Well at least we agree on that, Chuckt.

Paul


Good morning paul.

thats why i posted 1 cor 13 and the peter verses about adding to faith till we get to LOVE.

many ""christians"" look real good on the outside, nice and churchy, they have great self control, they dont steal, smoke, drink, fornicate,murder, they give money to the man, they donate time for bake sales and church events, always doing doing doing, yet are DEAD on the inside, full of hate, and torment and fear.

sorry if i was harsh with you yesterday.

God bless
chuckt
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 02:20:17 PM by chuckt »
2

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2009, 02:34:50 PM »
thanks. i didnt see that and i agree 100% LOVE fullfills the law.

God bless
chuckt


Well at least we agree on that, Chuckt.

Paul


Good morning paul.

thats why i posted 1 cor 13 and the peter verses about adding to faith till we get to LOVE.

many ""christians"" look real good on the outside, nice and churchy, they have great self control, they dont steal, smoke, drink, fornicate,murder, they give money to the man, they donate time for bake sales and church events, always doing doing doing, yet are DEAD on the inside, full of hate, and torment and fear.

sorry if i was harsh with you yesterday.

God bless
chuckt
:icon_flower:

you dude ...we dont see from one month til the next, then ya come over causing trouble , what is it, that little beautiful grand daughter keeping you up at nite bro?  ...getting kinda tetchy, wait till the other comes, then look out bud. :laughing7:

 :Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:


Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #116 on: March 05, 2009, 02:57:17 PM »





im here always reading and waiting in the shadows to pounce  :laughing7:
2

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #117 on: March 05, 2009, 03:05:38 PM »





im here always reading and waiting in the shadows to pounce  :laughing7:

Gosh bud , How shes grown,  she has( sorry bro cant remember the little sweeties name) your eating habits I see...a chip off the old block as they say, she beating those drums too :HeartThrob:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #118 on: March 05, 2009, 03:16:55 PM »





im here always reading and waiting in the shadows to pounce  :laughing7:

Gosh bud , How shes grown,  she has( sorry bro cant remember the little sweeties name) your eating habits I see...a chip off the old block as they say, she beating those drums too :HeartThrob:


Good day Taffy Bro! and blessing to you.

her name is Hannah Elise.


yup she eats like her pawpaw.....


well they live about 4 hrs south and i need to start going down more and visiting, i tend to take things for granted, i dont wanna let time slip bye.

i got her a bugs bunny doll like the one her mom had as a child and YES i will hopefully get her beating the drums soon.

she likes the little piano.

she's a blast......oh:

noun:   a highly pleasurable or exciting experience


hope all is well bro, as best that can be expected.

love
chuckt aka euty  :bgdance:



2

LaurieJo

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Re: Works
« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2009, 03:24:30 PM »
Seems there are 3 types of works....all mentiond in this thread, but 2 getting most of the focus.

There are works of the Hebrew's Old Covenant Law---by it the righteousness of God and the weakness of our flesh is revealed to us...it is a revelation needed so that we can receive the gospel.

Then there are "good works".  These are things we do naturally as our love for others grow. Many in the church system are falsely led to think that performing "good works" scores them reward points with God....they don't realize how that mindset hinders their faith from growing.  They have "zeal without knowledge"...thinking that "good works" makes one more right with God is performance-based religion...to think that doing "good Works" or keeping the Jew's Law is a requirement is to "fall from grace".
As God transforms us into the image of His Son, we will manifest those works.

Then there are the works that James spoke of...."justifying works".  As the plan God set in place at the beginning of time moves forward through the ages, He has had people doing these works during the times in which they lived.   In chapter 11 of Hebrews there is a list of people who we can see their faith by their works: Noah, Abraham, Rahab, etc.
They all had a knowledge of what God was going to bring to pass during their time....and they worked in harmony with God.
Same thing with Paul, James, and the disciples who lived during their time....they worked "together with God" during that transition period. 
They knew the destruction soon to take place in Jerusalem and the the suffering many would suffer for following Christ.....but they had acquired a strong faith because of their knowledge of God and His plan that spans from the beginning to future time past the time that they lived.  They knew they were called to "labour together with God", just as those in Hebrews 11, to do what God had purposed during their time.  Those are justifying works....we can see their faith by their works.

Now we need to think about what God is doing during our time....I am seeing inklings....anyone else?

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2009, 03:34:18 PM »

In CHRIST circumcision or uncircumcision is availing anything:

Gal 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love."

Yet Paul shows the Circumcision still exists in the real world:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

Col 4:11 and Jesus, termed Justus, who are of the Circumcision. These are the only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who became a solace to me."

Gal 2:7-9  But, on the contrary, preceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,  (8)  according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),  (9)  and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision-"


Thanks Tony, that's what I was getting at.  The salvation was the same for both groups; through Jesus.  But as you say, "in real life", there was a group as I mentioned in my previous post, the Jewish-Christian Nazarenes, who had been brought up through temple worship, circumcision, the Law.  Although now saved through grace by the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah, in reality having spiritually passed into the New Covenant, still, they had walked in the ways of the Old Covenant, and actually continued to hold to many of the customs of the OC and the Law...yes, the Law..and I'm bettin' they weren't able to undo the circumcision of their flesh  :mshock:.  The history of the Nazarenes shows that although they were known as the people of the Way, they still held to many of their Jewish customs...including continuing to worship in the temple!  As you say, and as I was suggesting, primarily, Peter's ministry was to them, including his addressing some different realities that existed for them that did not exist for the gentiles, to whom Paul primarily  ministered.  No difference in What saved them, Who the source of their salvation was...so not a different gospel, yet a different people with different backgrounds, and truly different histories with God Himself, as it were. 

The Nazarenes eventually scattered, the temple was destroyed, and one would think Christendom would have become a more united body..well, enter the RCC, then the Eastern Orthodox split, then the Reformation, then the Baptists, Methodists, AG, etc....Jesus is the gospel, but still, thousands of different viewpoints.

So as I understand it, same salvation, different peoples with different issues...and different primary ministers of the gospel to each.    And today, works are a response to love and guidance, not as a means to salvation..."neither circumcision or uncircumcision"... :thumbsup:

Jabcat, good post.
What some people here fail to realize is that the Jewish Christians were the ones giving Paul a hard time.
As late as Acts 21 tens of thousands of those Jewish Christians were zealous for the law:

"Now those who hear glorified God. Besides, they said to him, "You are beholding, brother, how many tens of thousands there are among the Jews who have believed, and all are inherently zealous for the law?" (Act 21:20).

If Peter, James or John came to the Galatians with an evangel different from what Paul brought to them they were to be anathema. They had the evangel of the Circumcision. Paul had the evangel of the Uncircumcision. They and those of those Christian Jews were no longer allowed to bring their evangel of law and grace to the Galatians.

They did not have the same evangel. Cut Paul's writings out of the Bible and you only have the future allotment of all believers on the earth. And they are all under the 12. They must endure to the end or they can't be saved (by saved I mean saved for the kingdom to be set up on the earth).

Under Paul's evangel, IN CHRIST there is no Jew nor Greek, Circumcision or Uncircumcision, male nor female, slave or free.
In the Lord there is Jew and Greek, male and female, slave and free male and female.
Under Paul's evangel there is a celestial allotment for the believers far above the earth.

Under Peter's evangel, there still are Jews and Greeks, Circumcision and Uncircumcision to contend with; the Gentiles are under the thumb of the Jewish believers.
Under Peter's evangel the allotment is all on the earth.

Oh heck, a picture is worth a thousand words: http://www.weltmanager.de/worldmanager/TheTwoEvangels.html
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2009, 03:56:26 PM »
Quote
So as I understand it, same salvation, different peoples with different issues...and different primary ministers of the gospel to each.    And today, works are a response to love and guidance, not as a means to salvation..."neither circumcision or uncircumcision"...


Hi Jab I don't really have a problem with what you said here, but it is not a different doctrine which you said in an earlier post which is were the confussion on my end came in, as if to say the doctrine to the Jews is different then the doctrine given to the gentile.

If it was a different doctrine to the Jews back then it is still a different doctrine to the Jews today which is what Tony beleives.

If Peter was teaching a different doctrine to the Jews then Paul was teaching to the Gentiles Paul would not have withstood Peter to his face for dissimulation, to which Peter repented of doing. Peter and the boys were all of the 12 tribes right? so did they recieve a different Gospel or doctrines from God then Paul who is also of the 12 tribes?

By the way I am of the 12 tribes of Israel and I recieve Pauls teachings of grace, faith and works so if it is a differnet doctrine that is given to the 12 tribes how is it that I recieve that which Paul taught.

For me the proof is in the pudding, therefore this different doctrine spoken of by Knoch and Tony is in error or I would not have recieved the ministration of grace.






Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2009, 04:28:25 PM »
Seems there are 3 types of works....all mentiond in this thread, but 2 getting most of the focus.

There are works of the Hebrew's Old Covenant Law---by it the righteousness of God and the weakness of our flesh is revealed to us...it is a revelation needed so that we can receive the gospel.

Then there are "good works".  These are things we do naturally as our love for others grow. Many in the church system are falsely led to think that performing "good works" scores them reward points with God....they don't realize how that mindset hinders their faith from growing.  They have "zeal without knowledge"...thinking that "good works" makes one more right with God is performance-based religion...to think that doing "good Works" or keeping the Jew's Law is a requirement is to "fall from grace".
As God transforms us into the image of His Son, we will manifest those works.

Then there are the works that James spoke of...."justifying works".  As the plan God set in place at the beginning of time moves forward through the ages, He has had people doing these works during the times in which they lived.   In chapter 11 of Hebrews there is a list of people who we can see their faith by their works: Noah, Abraham, Rahab, etc.
They all had a knowledge of what God was going to bring to pass during their time....and they worked in harmony with God.
Same thing with Paul, James, and the disciples who lived during their time....they worked "together with God" during that transition period. 
They knew the destruction soon to take place in Jerusalem and the the suffering many would suffer for following Christ.....but they had acquired a strong faith because of their knowledge of God and His plan that spans from the beginning to future time past the time that they lived.  They knew they were called to "labour together with God", just as those in Hebrews 11, to do what God had purposed during their time.  Those are justifying works....we can see their faith by their works.

Now we need to think about what God is doing during our time....I am seeing inklings....anyone else?

Its a Matter of Judgment :icon_flower:

Hbr 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister

The Work of faith both in us and co-operately, is a Labour of Love , the labour which is shown( act of ministering) to HIS NAME, without such works ,then FAITH is DEAD, Therefore Justification is the Act of DOING



1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Those in James who paid more Honour to the Rich(those who took them to the Judgment seats and Blasphemed the name by which they were CALLED- mm)than one who was In need Of BREAD and White Garment,SEEMS TO ME THEIR FAITH were Without works,as  did they  didnt administer Christ to the NEEDY , either in physical deed or spiritual?

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.

James says I will show Faith BY my works( maybe an act of adMininstering Christ) , I see alittle more going on in James than just the physical application

even those who adverse to Christ believe their to be one God, just wonder again if this relates to those of the Circumcision, those messengers of lies and death? :icon_king:

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


 Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Their failure you enact True Judgment oppossed to that of the respect of others( as is the case in James)

Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment

The mercy and compassion  given to them by Our Lord ,  then in so failing to do so unto others

Zec 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother: 



 :icon_flower:

« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 05:01:54 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #123 on: March 05, 2009, 04:30:15 PM »
I'm not so sure I'm ready to jump on this "same doctrine" band wagon just yet either.  In reading through Acts, you'll see there was a great concern about what Paul was preaching because to the Jews it was a very different doctrine than they believed in.  It got so sensitive that Paul had to drop what he was doing, go to Jerusalem and explain to them exactly what he was preaching.  And the argument there was, the Jews felt the Gentiles should physically be circumcised and Paul preached that they didn't need to, but the physical circumcision was a practice that only physical Jews followed.  But the circumcision that takes place in us is one of a spiritual nature not of a physical.

So in that sense, the gospel was very much different . .the Jews are all about following laws physically, but the message to the Gentiles was that Christ did to you spiritually what the Jews chose to do physcially . . .when Paul finished giving his defense on his message to them, they discussed it amongst themselves and their verdict was . . .

Acts 15 (Message Translation)
19-21"So here is my decision: We're not going to unnecessarily burden non-Jewish people who turn to the Master. We'll write them a letter and tell them, 'Be careful to not get involved in activities connected with idols, to guard the morality of sex and marriage, to not serve food offensive to Jewish Christiansóblood, for instance.' This is basic wisdom from Moses, preached and honored for centuries now in city after city as we have met and kept the Sabbath."

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #124 on: March 05, 2009, 04:54:21 PM »
Very good Nathan.

The believing Jews under Peter, tens of thousands to be exact, were zealous to do the law of Moses. They were the main persecutors of Paul, I believe.

Both groups are saved due to what Christ did in His death, burial and resurrection.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.