Works

[Nathan]

I feel like this conversation is an argument over which came first, the chicken or the egg.

What if the examples given in Scripture were not intended for us to conform to, but instead, just recognize and acknowledge their root as they manifest in us also.

A righeous person will do thus and thus . . ..the church then jumps on the "thus and thus" and try to impose on the sheep of how you should fit that mold . . .when instead . .all that Scripture was saying was . . .when Chirst is in you  . . . these are some of the changes he'll make in you . . .

But if you don't see these things in people, it doesn't mean that they aren't saved . . .it just may mean they're very young in their salvation and the spiritual metamorphis has not yet taken a visual affect.  Kind of like planting a seed . . .just because you don't see it sprouting up yet, doesn't mean that the seed has died and life is present.

[Taffy]

I feel like this conversation is an argument over which came first, the chicken or the egg.

What if the examples given in Scripture were not intended for us to conform to, but instead, just recognize and acknowledge their root as they manifest in us also.

A righeous person will do thus and thus . . ..the church then jumps on the "thus and thus" and try to impose on the sheep of how you should fit that mold . . .when instead . .all that Scripture was saying was . . .when Chirst is in you  . . . these are some of the changes he'll make in you . . .

But if you don't see these things in people, it doesn't mean that they aren't saved . . .it just may mean they're very young in their salvation and the spiritual metamorphis has not yet taken a visual affect.  Kind of like planting a seed . . .just because you don't see it sprouting up yet, doesn't mean that the seed has died and life is present.

 

iwas kinda talking this stuff earlier elsewhere

[trettep]

I feel like this conversation is an argument over which came first, the chicken or the egg.

What if the examples given in Scripture were not intended for us to conform to, but instead, just recognize and acknowledge their root as they manifest in us also.

A righeous person will do thus and thus . . ..the church then jumps on the "thus and thus" and try to impose on the sheep of how you should fit that mold . . .when instead . .all that Scripture was saying was . . .when Chirst is in you  . . . these are some of the changes he'll make in you . . .

But if you don't see these things in people, it doesn't mean that they aren't saved . . .it just may mean they're very young in their salvation and the spiritual metamorphis has not yet taken a visual affect.  Kind of like planting a seed . . .just because you don't see it sprouting up yet, doesn't mean that the seed has died and life is present.

We have to live by every word of God.

Luk 4:4  And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Paul says that Faith is the access to Grace.  There is no way that we can access Grace with dead Faith.  It is impossible.  Some here are objecting to that.   The goal here is to show that we are saved BY Jesus not because of Him.  If Jesus is in us then we will do the works that He did.  Those that overcome get to partake of the Tree of Life:

Rev 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

If we can't overcome our own flesh (and we can't) then someone must do it for us.  That someone is Christ Jesus.  What those verses in Rev Chapters 2 and 3 show is that the Lord is checking works to see who has the Christ and then providing the reward of Life for those works.

Paul

[bobf]

James is diametrically different from Pau's evangel.

You didn't explain why Paul applied his diametrically different gospel to the circumcision.

Paul would never teach to the nations what James taught to the twelve tribes of Israel (James 1:1).

• Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[bobf]

I feel like this conversation is an argument over which came first, the chicken or the egg.   What if the examples given in Scripture were not intended for us to conform to, but instead, just recognize and acknowledge their root as they manifest in us also.

If they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

[trettep]

If they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

There seems to be this belief that once your in the vine that you can't be cast off.  That would be taking the universalist position way to far. 

Paul

[Tony N]

James is diametrically different from Pau's evangel.

You didn't explain why Paul applied his diametrically different gospel to the circumcision.

That's because Paul didn't apply his diametrically different gospel to the circumcision.

Paul would never teach to the nations what James taught to the twelve tribes of Israel (James 1:1).

• Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Cute.

[bobf]

That's because Paul didn't apply his diametrically different gospel to the circumcision.

Because he didn't have one.

Paul taught that man (both Jew and Gentile) are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

[Tony N]

That's because Paul didn't apply his diametrically different gospel to the circumcision.

Because he didn't have one.

Paul taught that man (both Jew and Gentile) are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

That's what I'm saying. Paul taught that and James taught that a man is not justified by faith only.

[Nathan]

If they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

There seems to be this belief that once your in the vine that you can't be cast off.  That would be taking the universalist position way to far. 

Paul

Question . . .what did you do to become a sinner?
Answer . . .nothing . .you were born into it through the first Adam
Question . . .what must you do to become saved?
Answer . . .nothing . . .you were born into it through the second Adam

You can claim works and outward fruit until you're blue in the face, but that's not a message of freedom you preach . . .Christ freed us from the laws . .including yours . . .you're trying to say grace isn't strong enough, the cross wasn't powerful enough for me to live righteously . . .i must also "do" whatever your standards of being a Christian are . . .and I'm not in agreement with that . . .I believe grace is just that powerful . .my works do not give me my status in the kingdom . . .what does is, my awareness of what has been declared over me . . .all that's required is to exercise the authority that is already provided. 

You want to judge salvation by one's actions . . .yet we're instructed to "work out your own salvation" and I choose to do just that . . .

I also disagree that you can lose the gift that you never earned in the first place.  God's gifts are unrepentant . . .he doesn't take them back . . .salvation is not a reward . .it's a gift and it doesn't get returned just because my flesh acts up after the gift has been received.  There is more freedom here than the natural reasoning mind can comprehend . . . grace is just that great.

[bobf]

Because he didn't have one.

Paul taught that man (both Jew and Gentile) are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

That's what I'm saying. Paul taught that and James taught that a man is not justified by faith only.

So was James teaching a false gospel?  If not then why were Paul and James teaching the Circumcison two different true gospels?  And Earlier you said "Likewise, the Circumcision is different from the Uncircumcision."  but now you agreed that both are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.  So how is it different?

[Taffy]

If they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

There seems to be this belief that once your in the vine that you can't be cast off.  That would be taking the universalist position way to far. 

Paul

Question . . .what did you do to become a sinner?
Answer . . .nothing . .you were born into it through the first Adam
Question . . .what must you do to become saved?
Answer . . .nothing . . .you were born into it through the second Adam

You can claim works and outward fruit until you're blue in the face, but that's not a message of freedom you preach . . .Christ freed us from the laws . .including yours . . .you're trying to say grace isn't strong enough, the cross wasn't powerful enough for me to live righteously . . .i must also "do" whatever your standards of being a Christian are . . .and I'm not in agreement with that . . .I believe grace is just that powerful . .my works do not give me my status in the kingdom . . .what does is, my awareness of what has been declared over me . . .all that's required is to exercise the authority that is already provided. 

You want to judge salvation by one's actions . . .yet we're instructed to "work out your own salvation" and I choose to do just that . . .

I also disagree that you can lose the gift that you never earned in the first place.  God's gifts are unrepentant . . .he doesn't take them back . . .salvation is not a reward . .it's a gift and it doesn't get returned just because my flesh acts up after the gift has been received.  There is more freedom here than the natural reasoning mind can comprehend . . . grace is just that great.

[bobf]

Question . . .what must you do to become saved?
Answer . . .nothing . . .you were born into it through the second Adam

Nathan, Why was that not the answer Jesus gave when people asked them the same question "What must I do to inherit aionion life?"  Did Jesus say anything close to "nothing" ?  Jesus did teach we are saved by grace, but He did not say "nothing".

[trettep]

If they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

There seems to be this belief that once your in the vine that you can't be cast off.  That would be taking the universalist position way to far. 

Paul

Question . . .what did you do to become a sinner?
Answer . . .nothing . .you were born into it through the first Adam
Question . . .what must you do to become saved?
Answer . . .nothing . . .you were born into it through the second Adam

You can claim works and outward fruit until you're blue in the face, but that's not a message of freedom you preach . . .Christ freed us from the laws . .including yours . . .you're trying to say grace isn't strong enough, the cross wasn't powerful enough for me to live righteously . . .i must also "do" whatever your standards of being a Christian are . . .and I'm not in agreement with that . . .I believe grace is just that powerful . .my works do not give me my status in the kingdom . . .what does is, my awareness of what has been declared over me . . .all that's required is to exercise the authority that is already provided. 

You want to judge salvation by one's actions . . .yet we're instructed to "work out your own salvation" and I choose to do just that . . .

I also disagree that you can lose the gift that you never earned in the first place.  God's gifts are unrepentant . . .he doesn't take them back . . .salvation is not a reward . .it's a gift and it doesn't get returned just because my flesh acts up after the gift has been received.  There is more freedom here than the natural reasoning mind can comprehend . . . grace is just that great.

So what must you do to stay in salvation?  Obviously, the Bible talks of those enduring to the end for a purpose.

Paul

[Tony N]

Because he didn't have one.

Paul taught that man (both Jew and Gentile) are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

That's what I'm saying. Paul taught that and James taught that a man is not justified by faith only.

So was James teaching a false gospel?  If not then why were Paul and James teaching the Circumcison two different true gospels?  And Earlier you said "Likewise, the Circumcision is different from the Uncircumcision."  but now you agreed that both are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.  So how is it different?

I agreed that Paul taught that Jews and Greeks are justified by faith apart from works to those Jews and Greeks who come under his administration.

No, James was teaching the twelve tribes of Israel. That is who James is addressed to in James 1:1. We of the nations are not the twelve tribes of Israel.

Paul would not teach the twelve tribes what he taught us of the nations and James would not teach to us what he taught to the twelve tribes.

[Zeek]

I see salvation is for all, but the process is one of two ways:  

1. with reward (narrow path), clothed with HIS righteousness

2.  wide road (through wrath/destructive fire), in shame, naked.  

[bobf]

I agreed that Paul taught that Jews and Greeks are justified by faith apart from works to those Jews and Greeks who come under his administration.

No, James was teaching the twelve tribes of Israel. That is who James is addressed to in James 1:1. We of the nations are not the twelve tribes of Israel.

Paul would not teach the twelve tribes what he taught us of the nations and James would not teach to us what he taught to the twelve tribes.

So what determined who was under Paul's adminiatration.  Aren't "the Circumcision" of the twelve tribes of Israel?

[Cardinal]

  That's what I see too, Zeek......and the great thing about that is, we were told if we saw someone who was lacking a cloak (Christ the outer anointing), we were to give them ours (works of Christ, ie. lay hands on). Blessings....

[pneuma]

James 1:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

These Two scriptures were used on another board to show that James and Paul did not agree with one another. Here was my reply, hope it may be helpful to others that see a contradiction between James and Paul.

Do these scriptures conflict with one another? Or are they speaking of two aspects of faith.

First it should be pointed out that Paul in Romans 4 is speaking of faith in the birth of Isaac (this is seen in verses 18-22) and James is speaking of the sacrifice of Isaac.

Two different aspects of faith.

Abraham did nothing but believe in Isaacs birth, but once Isaac/Christ is birthed in us He produces works of faith. It is these works of faith James is speaking of and this can be seen in verse 22 "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" /complete

If Abraham never offered up Isaac (which is works) then his faith would never have come to completion.

We can see these same works of faith also mentioned by both Jesus and Paul.

John 8:39
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.( Are they works of faith or works of the law)
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,(these would be works of the law) least any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (works of faith)

2 Thessalonians 1:11
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark (works) to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Now think on this; if Noah had not built the boat (which was a work of faith, the same works of faith James is speaking on) then he and his house would have drowned with the rest of mankind.

Adds another layer to "faith without works is dead" don't it.

[trettep]

Because he didn't have one.

Paul taught that man (both Jew and Gentile) are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

That's what I'm saying. Paul taught that and James taught that a man is not justified by faith only.

So was James teaching a false gospel?  If not then why were Paul and James teaching the Circumcison two different true gospels?  And Earlier you said "Likewise, the Circumcision is different from the Uncircumcision."  but now you agreed that both are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.  So how is it different?

I agreed that Paul taught that Jews and Greeks are justified by faith apart from works to those Jews and Greeks who come under his administration.

No, James was teaching the twelve tribes of Israel. That is who James is addressed to in James 1:1. We of the nations are not the twelve tribes of Israel.

Paul would not teach the twelve tribes what he taught us of the nations and James would not teach to us what he taught to the twelve tribes.

Tony, please start another thread on that subject and we can debate that also.

Paul

[trettep]

James 1:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

These Two scriptures were used on another board to show that James and Paul did not agree with one another. Here was my reply, hope it may be helpful to others that see a contradiction between James and Paul.

Do these scriptures conflict with one another? Or are they speaking of two aspects of faith.

First it should be pointed out that Paul in Romans 4 is speaking of faith in the birth of Isaac (this is seen in verses 18-22) and James is speaking of the sacrifice of Isaac.

Two different aspects of faith.

Abraham did nothing but believe in Isaacs birth, but once Isaac/Christ is birthed in us He produces works of faith. It is these works of faith James is speaking of and this can be seen in verse 22 "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" /complete

If Abraham never offered up Isaac (which is works) then his faith would never have come to completion.

We can see these same works of faith also mentioned by both Jesus and Paul.

John 8:39
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.( Are they works of faith or works of the law)
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,(these would be works of the law) least any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (works of faith)

2 Thessalonians 1:11
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark (works) to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Now think on this; if Noah had not built the boat (which was a work of faith, the same works of faith James is speaking on) then he and his house would have drowned with the rest of mankind.

Adds another layer to "faith without works is dead" don't it.

Basically that all comes down to verse 1 of that chapter of Romans:

Rom 4:1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

I so often hear those other verses quoted by not that first one.  And it sets up the context of the works that the other verses are talking about.  Those are the works of the flesh.  Not to be confused with the works of Righteousness by Christ that he performed via Faith.  We all have done works of the flesh and many as we can see many have performed works of the Christ.  Those works are contrary to each other.

Paul

[pneuma]

We all have done works of the flesh and many as we can see many have performed works of the Christ.  Those works are contrary to each other.

Hi Paul
I agree, if you thought I said anything contrary you did not understand my post.

[Taffy]

If they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

There seems to be this belief that once your in the vine that you can't be cast off.  That would be taking the universalist position way to far. 

Paul

Question . . .what did you do to become a sinner?
Answer . . .nothing . .you were born into it through the first Adam
Question . . .what must you do to become saved?
Answer . . .nothing . . .you were born into it through the second Adam

You can claim works and outward fruit until you're blue in the face, but that's not a message of freedom you preach . . .Christ freed us from the laws . .including yours . . .you're trying to say grace isn't strong enough, the cross wasn't powerful enough for me to live righteously . . .i must also "do" whatever your standards of being a Christian are . . .and I'm not in agreement with that . . .I believe grace is just that powerful . .my works do not give me my status in the kingdom . . .what does is, my awareness of what has been declared over me . . .all that's required is to exercise the authority that is already provided. 

You want to judge salvation by one's actions . . .yet we're instructed to "work out your own salvation" and I choose to do just that . . .

I also disagree that you can lose the gift that you never earned in the first place.  God's gifts are unrepentant . . .he doesn't take them back . . .salvation is not a reward . .it's a gift and it doesn't get returned just because my flesh acts up after the gift has been received.  There is more freedom here than the natural reasoning mind can comprehend . . . grace is just that great.

So what must you do to stay in salvation?  Obviously, the Bible talks of those enduring to the end for a purpose.

Paul

Recieving the END of your Faith, the salvation of your souls ,

For me its how we perceive Who or What the END is , ?

Receiving the END( Christ) of your Faith, the salvation of your souls  and he ,who endures to the END( Christ) will be saved.

mean while Im his workmanship and continue in the faith ( HIS) in what ever this life brings and where ever HE leads me
WHAT WORKS are done are His through me , GOOD works are a Labour of love , as His spirit flows in me, it flows to others ,
To HIM the Glory , ALWAYS

 

[bobf]

Hi Paul
I agree, if you thought I said anything contrary you did not understand my post.

Good thoughts Pneuma.

Another thing to notice about James' and Paul's statements about fath and works.  Both made logical arguments or proofs from scripture.  Neither of their proofs hinged on what race, religion, or administration one belongs to.  Therefore, if their proofs were sound, they could not arrive at opposing conclusions for different races, religions, or administrations.

[pneuma]

Hi Paul
I agree, if you thought I said anything contrary you did not understand my post.

Good thoughts Pneuma.

Another thing to notice about James' and Paul's statements about fath and works.  Both made logical arguments or proofs from scripture.  Neither of their proofs hinged on what race, religion, or administration one belongs to.  Therefore, if their proofs were sound, they could not arrive at opposing conclusions for different races, religions, or administrations.

Amen Bob as we are all of the household of God, therfore race has absulutly no part in the picture.