Author Topic: Works  (Read 118410 times)

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Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2009, 06:12:41 PM »
Quote
You asked "saved from what".  The answer is saved from your sins which leads to death.  Thus if you believe that your saved and acknowledge Christ as your Lord and Savior but still are practicing sin as if to believe that your already saved then guess what? - your not saved.  It is impossible to still practice sin and be saved.

Paul

WOW ...so works save us from our sin  :thumbdown:


ok. when you can show me how much sin is too much we can go on  :dontknow:

i mean forget grace.

and some will say oh so since grace abounds we can go on sinning?

this is pure carnal thinking.

please post me a chart of sins and how much is too much.

wait how about this, to address your subject, here is the work:

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


 2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


 2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness LOVE.  :bgdance:


 2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

 2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


i think i'll do these things and leave ""getting into heaven"" up to GOD.


salvation is a process and ALL christians sin some more than others at different times, so please post us a ""sin chart""  :laughing7:

i mean there is plenty of sin in our life we dont even recognize!!


later
chuckt
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 06:18:13 PM by chuckt »
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trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2009, 06:28:40 PM »
Quote
You asked "saved from what".  The answer is saved from your sins which leads to death.  Thus if you believe that your saved and acknowledge Christ as your Lord and Savior but still are practicing sin as if to believe that your already saved then guess what? - your not saved.  It is impossible to still practice sin and be saved.

Paul

WOW ...so works save us from our sin  :thumbdown:


ok. when you can show me how much sin is too much we can go on  :dontknow:

i mean forget grace.

and some will say oh so since grace abounds we can go on sinning?

this is pure carnal thinking.

please post me a chart of sins and how much is too much.

wait how about this, to address your subject, here is the work:

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


 2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


 2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness LOVE.  :bgdance:


 2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

 2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


i think i'll do these things and leave ""getting into heaven"" up to GOD.


salvation is a process and ALL christians sin some more than others at different times, so please post us a ""sin chart""  :laughing7:

i mean there is plenty of sin in our life we dont even recognize!!


later
chuckt

Here is how many sins are to much: 1

See Jesus was without sin.  If you continue in your sins and yet acknowledge Christ (which many do) then you don't have Christ and infact commit blasphemy for you defame the name of Jesus Christ.

I haven't seen you address my verse that I posted.  Did you think it was translated wrong?  Here  it is again:

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Should I follow what your saying or what God's Word is saying?  The challenge to everyone here is that you will not find evidence from God's Word to show that one is not saved as a direct result of Christ WORKING through them.

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2009, 06:38:02 PM »
Hi LauriJo, I'm very confident that Works are required.  Again, not my own works but the works of Christ.  If anyone is telling me that doing the works of Christ is falling from Grace, I would say they are mistaken.  I find no shame in what I'm teaching here.  It is all scriptural.  Consider this:

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The scriptures are even teaching that those that do His commandments are those that have right to the tree of life (salvation).

The scriptures here are showing a requirement of performing His commandments to obtaining access to the tree of life.  Please address this verse in your rebuttal. Again, I say that Grace doesn't exclude works - it only excludes our works.

Paul

Galatianism, pure and simple.
Also, trettep, you are bringing an evangel that was not an evangel Paul brought. He said if anyone bring a different evangel other than what we bring let him be anathema. Paul never taught saved by works which we do. He never taught that works are required but in fact taught that works were not required.

I would suggest you stop mixing Circumcision writings such as Revelation passages with Paul's evangel. Don't so makes it a different evangel.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2009, 06:41:58 PM »
Quote
Here is how many sins are to much: 1

So much for grace and the Cross.

2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Quote
See Jesus was without sin.  If you continue in your sins and yet acknowledge Christ (which many do) then you don't have Christ and infact commit blasphemy for you defame the name of Jesus Christ.

again you contradict you say 1 sin now you say sins. again i ask, how much sin? oh you can spot the biggie sins, thats easy, what about the sins you commit and are not aware of?

Quote
I haven't seen you address my verse that I posted.  Did you think it was translated wrong?  Here  it is again:

yes i did and i told you, one prooftext means nothing, the SUM of Gods word is truth, and you are belitteling the CROSS and Christ and HIS power to save!


Quote
Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


the greek here says blessed are they rinsing their robes!

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm

be that as it may, the commandments are

love God and Love thy neighbor!


Quote
Should I follow what your saying or what God's Word is saying?  The challenge to everyone here is that you will not find evidence from God's Word to show that one is not saved as a direct result of Christ WORKING through them.

Quote
one is not saved as a direct result of Christ WORKING through them

HUH?...sorry but one IS being saved by the work of Christ IN THEM.

IS WAS and WILL BE!


let Christ do the work IN HIS TIME.


Chapter 13
1 If I should be speaking in the languages of men and of the messengers, yet should have no love, I have become resounding copper or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I should have prophecy and should be perceiving all secrets and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so as to transport mountains, yet have no love, I am nothing.
3 And if ever I should be morselling out all my possessions, and if I should be giving up my body, that I should be boasting, yet may have no love, in nothing do I benefit.


have a good day.
chuckt


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trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2009, 06:44:38 PM »
Galatianism, pure and simple.
Also, trettep, you are bringing an evangel that was not an evangel Paul brought. He said if anyone bring a different evangel other than what we bring let him be anathema. Paul never taught saved by works which we do. He never taught that works are required but in fact taught that works were not required.

I would suggest you stop mixing Circumcision writings such as Revelation passages with Paul's evangel. Don't so makes it a different evangel.

TonyN - I'm quite comfortable with the message of Paul and His Gospel is what I'm preaching here.  Paul did teach we are saved by the works of Christ.  Paul only taught that OUR works are not required.  So again if you can prove other wise from God's Word that someone can be saved without performing the Works of Christ then I will turn from such a message.   Surely, if you believe Paul is preaching that Christ Works don't save us that you can present that from His own words.

Paul

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2009, 06:47:43 PM »
Galatianism, pure and simple.
Also, trettep, you are bringing an evangel that was not an evangel Paul brought. He said if anyone bring a different evangel other than what we bring let him be anathema. Paul never taught saved by works which we do. He never taught that works are required but in fact taught that works were not required.

I would suggest you stop mixing Circumcision writings such as Revelation passages with Paul's evangel. Don't so makes it a different evangel.

TonyN - I'm quite comfortable with the message of Paul and His Gospel is what I'm preaching here.  Paul did teach we are saved by the works of Christ.  Paul only taught that OUR works are not required.  So again if you can prove other wise from God's Word that someone can be saved without performing the Works of Christ then I will turn from such a message.   Surely, if you believe Paul is preaching that Christ Works don't save us that you can present that from His own words.

Paul


Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.


 Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
2

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2009, 06:49:34 PM »
can you list the commandments you are talking about doing?

thanks
chuckt
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2009, 06:54:11 PM »
 :cloud9: Trettep, are you speaking along the lines of, "Faith without works (His) is dead?"
Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2009, 06:55:42 PM »
:cloud9: Trettep, are you speaking along the lines of, "Faith without works (His) is dead?"
Blessings....

Yes, exactly Cardinal, thanks for that clarification.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2009, 07:12:24 PM »
can you list the commandments you are talking about doing?

thanks
chuckt

Here you go Chuckt.  I thought I already posted this as a reply but didn't see it.  So I apology if this is a repeat.

Rom 13:9  for, `Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false testimony, Thou shalt not covet;' and if there is any other command, in this word it is summed up, in this: `Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself;'
Rom 13:10  the love to the neighbour doth work no ill; the love, therefore, is the fulness of law.

Paul


Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2009, 07:23:05 PM »
can you list the commandments you are talking about doing?

thanks
chuckt

Here you go Chuckt.  I thought I already posted this as a reply but didn't see it.  So I apology if this is a repeat.

Rom 13:9  for, `Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false testimony, Thou shalt not covet;' and if there is any other command, in this word it is summed up, in this: `Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself;'
Rom 13:10  the love to the neighbour doth work no ill; the love, therefore, is the fulness of law.

Paul




thanks. i didnt see that and i agree 100% LOVE fullfills the law.

God bless
chuckt
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 07:33:51 PM by chuckt »
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trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2009, 07:50:02 PM »
thanks. i didnt see that and i agree 100% LOVE fullfills the law.

God bless
chuckt


Well at least we agree on that, Chuckt.

Paul

Offline claypot

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Re: Works
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2009, 07:53:24 PM »
:cloud9: Trettep, are you speaking along the lines of, "Faith without works (His) is dead?"
Blessings....

This from Card cleared it up for me. I like that. Jesus said He works and His Father works and we know what they were working on don't we?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2009, 08:02:39 PM »
:cloud9: Trettep, are you speaking along the lines of, "Faith without works (His) is dead?"
Blessings....

This from Card cleared it up for me. I like that. Jesus said He works and His Father works and we know what they were working on don't we?

cp

Yes, this is the distinction that many don't make.  They simply read Paul as saying that we are saved by Grace through Faith and not of works and then many conclude that ALL works are unrighteous.  But we are saved BY the righteousness of Jesus.  I break up many that claim to be Christians in this regard into two groups.  Those that believe that we are saved BECAUSE of Jesus and those that believe we are saved BY Jesus.  The distinction is that many believe that it is not a REQUIREMENT to perform the works of Christ in order to be saved.  But what I believe can't be disputed is that Dead Faith cannot access Grace.

Paul

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2009, 08:15:14 PM »
It amazes me that anyone could believe that Christ's words do not apply to us.  Jesus was looking past his death, resurrection, and ascension to the Father into the age in which Paul preached.

  • John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

What does this verse say about anyone who does not come to the point that he does the works that Christ did?  It says that that person does not believe on Christ.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 08:17:37 PM by bobf »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2009, 08:26:30 PM »
Religion has so messed up the idea of works.

We are told we have to do things and then we are told how we should be, what we should think and then even churches will tell you what you should be doing in order to be a witness to prove your faith, etc.   Then of course since our deeds are not what saves us then people start getting tripped up over the appearance that scripture contradicts the idea.



Ja 2:22 You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.


Ja 2:24 You see that outby works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.



Phl 2:13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.



To me it is that each of us will manifest works inherantly by the faith God gives us, the two are inseparable.   What is able to be separated is the judgment and finger pointing from people over the issue.   

Can anyone rightly know every single detail that God works to justify us?  Nope.   But he IS working to do that and thats what its about.


Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2009, 08:32:05 PM »
Galatianism, pure and simple.
Also, trettep, you are bringing an evangel that was not an evangel Paul brought. He said if anyone bring a different evangel other than what we bring let him be anathema. Paul never taught saved by works which we do. He never taught that works are required but in fact taught that works were not required.

I would suggest you stop mixing Circumcision writings such as Revelation passages with Paul's evangel. Don't so makes it a different evangel.

TonyN - I'm quite comfortable with the message of Paul and His Gospel is what I'm preaching here.  Paul did teach we are saved by the works of Christ.  Paul only taught that OUR works are not required.  So again if you can prove other wise from God's Word that someone can be saved without performing the Works of Christ then I will turn from such a message.   Surely, if you believe Paul is preaching that Christ Works don't save us that you can present that from His own words.

Paul

Paul wrote that "we are saved by grace through faith and this is not out of you. It is God's approach present, not of works lest any man should boast."

trettep, are you saying that if one mixes works with grace that those works are the works of Christ? And so are you saying Paul was wrong for writing Galatians?

trettep, the apostle Paul said in Galatians that we are justified by the faith of Christ alone and not by works of law.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2009, 08:36:00 PM »

Is it possible to love Christ "by faith alone" while not keeping His commandments?

  • John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

  • John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

  • John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Are these verses still true?  Or were Christ's disciples supposed to quickly forget these words after Pentecost so as not to fall from grace in the age of grace?

What was Christ trying to tell His disciples?


Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2009, 08:41:33 PM »

Is it possible to love Christ "by faith alone" while not keeping His commandments?

  • John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

  • John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

  • John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Are these verses still true?  Or were Christ's disciples supposed to quickly forget these words after Pentecost so as not to fall from grace in the age of grace?

What was Christ trying to tell His disciples?



Different strokes for different folks.

The laws governing Canada are not to be enforced upon American citizens living in America.
The laws governing America are not to be enforced upon Canadians living in Canada.

In other words, we can't make Canadians pay taxes to support us even if we have laws which state Americans must pay taxes.

Likewise, the Circumcision is different from the Uncircumcision. We of the Uncircumcision are never told by our apostle, Paul, that we must do those things which Christ told His disciples to do. Dig?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2009, 08:42:24 PM »
Galatianism, pure and simple.
Also, trettep, you are bringing an evangel that was not an evangel Paul brought. He said if anyone bring a different evangel other than what we bring let him be anathema. Paul never taught saved by works which we do. He never taught that works are required but in fact taught that works were not required.

I would suggest you stop mixing Circumcision writings such as Revelation passages with Paul's evangel. Don't so makes it a different evangel.

  

TonyN - I'm quite comfortable with the message of Paul and His Gospel is what I'm preaching here.  Paul did teach we are saved by the works of Christ.  Paul only taught that OUR works are not required.  So again if you can prove other wise from God's Word that someone can be saved without performing the Works of Christ then I will turn from such a message.   Surely, if you believe Paul is preaching that Christ Works don't save us that you can present that from His own words.

Paul

Paul wrote that "we are saved by grace through faith and this is not out of you. It is God's approach present, not of works lest any man should boast."

trettep, are you saying that if one mixes works with grace that those works are the works of Christ? And so are you saying Paul was wrong for writing Galatians?

trettep, the apostle Paul said in Galatians that we are justified by the faith of Christ alone and not by works of law.

Maybe this is what T was talking ofTT to many Ts around  :laughing7:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

His works Through Us , one boasts come the  law Bro, and  the deeds  thereof  :mblush:

Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 08:45:25 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2009, 08:44:35 PM »
Galatianism, pure and simple.
Also, trettep, you are bringing an evangel that was not an evangel Paul brought. He said if anyone bring a different evangel other than what we bring let him be anathema. Paul never taught saved by works which we do. He never taught that works are required but in fact taught that works were not required.

I would suggest you stop mixing Circumcision writings such as Revelation passages with Paul's evangel. Don't so makes it a different evangel.

TonyN - I'm quite comfortable with the message of Paul and His Gospel is what I'm preaching here.  Paul did teach we are saved by the works of Christ.  Paul only taught that OUR works are not required.  So again if you can prove other wise from God's Word that someone can be saved without performing the Works of Christ then I will turn from such a message.   Surely, if you believe Paul is preaching that Christ Works don't save us that you can present that from His own words.

Paul

Paul wrote that "we are saved by grace through faith and this is not out of you. It is God's approach present, not of works lest any man should boast."

trettep, are you saying that if one mixes works with grace that those works are the works of Christ? And so are you saying Paul was wrong for writing Galatians?

trettep, the apostle Paul said in Galatians that we are justified by the faith of Christ alone and not by works of law.

Not at all Tony.  I'm making the disctinction between the works of man and those of Christ.  Paul made that distinction also.  But if you disgree Tony, then I will ask you what I ask others:

Can dead Faith (Faith without works - according to James) Access Grace?

Paul

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2009, 08:52:12 PM »
Paul wrote that "we are saved by grace through faith and this is not out of you. It is God's approach present, not of works lest any man should boast."

trettep, are you saying that if one mixes works with grace that those works are the works of Christ? And so are you saying Paul was wrong for writing Galatians?

trettep, the apostle Paul said in Galatians that we are justified by the faith of Christ alone and not by works of law.

  • Ephesains 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The first "works" are works originating in man - such that he could boast in them.
The second "works" are works done due to being God's workmanship which is purely by grace.

You can not lump things like "love your neighbor" and "be ye perfect as the Father is perfect" under "Works of the law" as if it is in the same category as physical circumcision and physical Sabbath keeping which are only outward forms of true circumcision (of the heart) and entering His rest.

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2009, 09:02:24 PM »
Likewise, the Circumcision is different from the Uncircumcision.

So which is it Tony?  Is it an age of grace through faith alone, or is it a race of grace through faith alone?


bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2009, 09:22:50 PM »
Likewise, the Circumcision is different from the Uncircumcision. We of the Uncircumcision are never told by our apostle, Paul, that we must do those things which Christ told His disciples to do. Dig?

No I don't dig Tony.

  • Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

  • Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Paul just got done proving that man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.  Then Paul applies his proof to both Jew and Gentile alike.  So how is it you say that the Circumcision justification includes works while the Uncircumcision justification does not?


Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2009, 09:27:06 PM »
Likewise, the Circumcision is different from the Uncircumcision. We of the Uncircumcision are never told by our apostle, Paul, that we must do those things which Christ told His disciples to do. Dig?

No I don't dig Tony.

  • Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

  • Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Paul just got done proving that man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.  Then Paul applies his proof to both Jew and Gentile alike.  So how is it you say that the Circumcision justification includes works while the Uncircumcision justification does not?



Read James. A man is not justified if he does not do the law.

Jam 2:24 You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only."

Jam 2:8-14  Howbeit, if you are discharging the royal law, according to the scripture, "You shall be loving your associate as yourself,you are doing ideally."  (9)  Yet if you are showing partiality, you are working sin, being exposed by the law as transgressors."  (10)  For anyone who should be keeping the whole law, yet should be tripping in one thing, has become liable for all."  (11)  For He Who is saying, You should not be committing adultery, said, You should not be murdering, also. Now if you are not committing adultery, yet are murdering, you have become a transgressor of law."  (12)  Thus be speaking and thus be doing, as those about to be judged by a law of freedom. "  (13)  For the judging is merciless to him who does not exercise mercy. Vaunting is mercy against judging.  (14)  What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him."

James is diametrically different from Pau's evangel.

Paul would never teach to the nations what James taught to the twelve tribes of Israel (James 1:1).
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.