Author Topic: Works  (Read 94492 times)

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Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2009, 09:07:25 PM »
To understand this subject we must establish if works are ever required to be saved in the scriptures:

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

To receive aionios Life is to be saved.  Here in those verses we clearly see that the aionios life is given as a direct result of works. 

Paul, in Romans 2:7 they may seek glory and honour and immortality, eternal life by their works but it is not saying they will get it for the apostle Paul in this area is telling us none are righteous. They only get it through Christ's obedience.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 09:09:24 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2009, 09:22:51 PM »
Paul, in Romans 2:7 they may seek glory and honour and immortality, eternal life by their works but it is not saying they will get it for the apostle Paul in this area is telling us none are righteous. They only get it through Christ's obedience.

Tony, to me the verses do say that the aionios life is rendered for works.  My statements don't contracdict the fact that we are not righteous.  Jesus IS righteous and when we have Christ in us - He puts down sin in our own flesh.  See it is His obedience that is being performed through us. 

Paul
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 09:34:38 PM by trettep »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2009, 09:28:01 PM »
Consider that ALL Good works are copyrighted by the Christ. 

 :cloud9:  Yes, exactly, that's why it says the Holy Ghost does the works.....Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2009, 09:45:48 PM »
Tony, going back to your assertion that aionios means "duration".  Let's look at this verse:

Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The bolded part is all translated from the word "aionios".  So if we were to substitute the word "duration" there it would have not boundary to give a reference point for the reader.  It doesn't work and just leaves us in confusion.  But if we say it means age-enduring then it means that the mystery was kept secret from before this age began. 

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2009, 09:57:22 PM »
Paul, in Romans 2:7 they may seek glory and honour and immortality, eternal life by their works but it is not saying they will get it for the apostle Paul in this area is telling us none are righteous. They only get it through Christ's obedience.

Tony, to me the verses do say that the aionios life is rendered for works.  My statements don't contracdict the fact that we are not righteous.  Jesus IS righteous and when we have Christ in us - He puts down sin in our own flesh.  See it is His obedience that is being performed through us. 

Paul

From Romans 1:14 to 3:23 the apostle Paul is proving the utter inability for mankind to be righteous by law and apart from law. It is not till Paul gets to Romans 3:24 that he begins to prove that all righteousness is through Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul Paul is not saying "works + Christ = righteousness."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2009, 10:09:58 PM »

From Romans 1:14 to 3:23 the apostle Paul is proving the utter inability for mankind to be righteous by law and apart from law. It is not till Paul gets to Romans 3:24 that he begins to prove that all righteousness is through Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul Paul is not saying "works + Christ = righteousness."

Tony, I believe we both agree that all righeousness is done through Jesus Christ.  I think we both agree that man is unable of his works to perform righteousness.  It appears to me that you don't believe that the performance of righteousness is needed to be saved and this is where we disagree.  I believe that an incapable man can perform what is righteous by having the spirit of the capable man (Christ).

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2009, 10:30:08 PM »

From Romans 1:14 to 3:23 the apostle Paul is proving the utter inability for mankind to be righteous by law and apart from law. It is not till Paul gets to Romans 3:24 that he begins to prove that all righteousness is through Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul Paul is not saying "works + Christ = righteousness."

Tony, I believe we both agree that all righeousness is done through Jesus Christ.  I think we both agree that man is unable of his works to perform righteousness.  It appears to me that you don't believe that the performance of righteousness is needed to be saved and this is where we disagree.  I believe that an incapable man can perform what is righteous by having the spirit of the capable man (Christ).

Paul

Hi Paul, thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you. The problem is this: Paul is not showing how mankind is doing his works by having the spirit of Christ in them in Romans 1:14 to 3:23 especially Romans 2:7. In 2:7 they may seek eonian life by doing good works but that doesn't mean they get it. All their righteousness is as filthy rags.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2009, 10:52:11 PM »
Hi Paul, thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you. The problem is this: Paul is not showing how mankind is doing his works by having the spirit of Christ in them in Romans 1:14 to 3:23 especially Romans 2:7. In 2:7 they may seek eonian life by doing good works but that doesn't mean they get it. All their righteousness is as filthy rags.

Tony,

Let me give you the Young's Literal Translation which I believe makes it easier to understand:

Rom 2:6  who shall render to each according to his works;
Rom 2:7  to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility--life age-during;

See the "life age-during" (I prefer age-enduring) is rendered to those working.  The works are those righteous works of the Christ in them.  They are working because they seek glory, honour and incorruptibility and will receive aionios life because  of it.

I believe that verses 2:6-7 do indeed show that those doing the works of Christ will receive life aionios.

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2009, 11:00:27 PM »
Paul, sorry, can't help ya bud.

Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2009, 11:19:37 PM »
Paul, sorry, can't help ya bud.

Tony

That is quite alright Tony, God obviously hasn't given me to understand what it is your trying to teach me.

Paul

Online jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2009, 01:54:18 AM »
Hi guys.  Just taking a shot here.  Does this help at all?  If not  :dontknow:, hey I tried :)

This from the Geneva Study Bible Commentary;

"Glory which follows good works, which he does not lay out before us as though there were any that could attain to salvation by his own strength, but, he lays this condition of salvation before us, which no man can perform, to bring men to Christ, who alone justifies the believers, as he himself concludes; see Ro 2:21-22."

God's blessing, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2009, 02:08:19 AM »
Hi guys.  Just taking a shot here.  Does this help at all?  If not  :dontknow:, hey I tried :)

This from the Geneva Study Bible Commentary;

"Glory which follows good works, which he does not lay out before us as though there were any that could attain to salvation by his own strength, but, he lays this condition of salvation before us, which no man can perform, to bring men to Christ, who alone justifies the believers, as he himself concludes; see Ro 2:21-22."

God's blessing, James.

Hi James, Paul said the law was given to escort them to Christ. It wasn't given by God as if God thought they could keep the whole law and become righteous by it. So i can see what you are saying by your quote above.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Online jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2009, 02:12:30 AM »
yeah, in my mind, i was thinking about the law as analogous, but decided not to go there  :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

LaurieJo

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Re: Works
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2009, 05:34:05 AM »
A.P. Adams does an excellent job explaining faith & works---both types of work...good works and justifying works (work done in harmony with God, according to His purpose for each "present time" as the plan He set in place in the beginning moves forward through time.)

Part 1:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/SpiritOfTheWord/009FaithAndWorks.htm
Part 2:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/SpiritOfTheWord/013FaithAndWorks.htm

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2009, 06:10:07 AM »
This is a Roman Catholic source but a very good one on the subject. 

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

Includes discussion also of God's Will and Free will as well.

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2009, 01:17:33 PM »
A believer cannot and should not mix works with grace to become more righteous or have a better standing with God. To do so is to enter into Galatianism.

I'm not saying a believer should not do good works out of love. But they are not required for salvation nor for being more righteous according to what Paul wrote to the Galatians.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2009, 01:27:28 PM »
i continually look for ways to do ideal acts of kindness. :popout:

the more i do the more i stink, the harder i work, the weaker i feel. :flamebreath:

the more i learn, the more i dont know. :fool:

the moment i think i got something figured out, im wrong. :doh:

i have no place to turn cept to HIM. :gthumbsup:

crazy stuff man. :Gtantrum:
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trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2009, 04:02:37 PM »
A believer cannot and should not mix works with grace to become more righteous or have a better standing with God. To do so is to enter into Galatianism.

I'm not saying a believer should not do good works out of love. But they are not required for salvation nor for being more righteous according to what Paul wrote to the Galatians.

Tony, Grace does NOT exclude works.  To be under Grace is to have been given the Christ.  Christ is NOT idle.  If you don't have works your none of His.   

Again, the distinction must be made between our works and His (the Christ) works.  Works are a REQUIREMENT to being saved.  I'm not talking about OUR works but talking about His works.

Paul

LaurieJo

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Re: Works
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2009, 04:54:40 PM »
Tony, Grace does NOT exclude works.  To be under Grace is to have been given the Christ.  Christ is NOT idle.  If you don't have works your none of His.   

Again, the distinction must be made between our works and His (the Christ) works.  Works are a REQUIREMENT to being saved.  I'm not talking about OUR works but talking about His works.

Paul

Good works are NOT a requirement to being saved----to think that is to fall from grace!  You're mixing Law and Grace.....very dangerous doctrine that can lead to "self" righteousmess or hopelessness.

As God grows/transforms us more into the image of Christ, we will naturally manifest good works as God wants to bless us by blessing others.  But to say that doing good works is a requirement for salvation is a very, very harmful teaching!

I think you should read the links I posted earlier.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 04:58:20 PM by LaurieJo »

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2009, 05:08:37 PM »
Good works are NOT a requirement to being saved----to think that is to fall from grace!  You're mixing Law and Grace.....very dangerous doctrine that can lead to "self" righteousmess or hopelessness.

As God grows/transforms us more into the image of Christ, we will naturally manifest good works as God wants to bless us by blessing others.  But to say that doing good works is a requirement for salvation is a very, very harmful teaching!

I think you should read the links I posted earlier.

Hi LauriJo, I'm very confident that Works are required.  Again, not my own works but the works of Christ.  If anyone is telling me that doing the works of Christ is falling from Grace, I would say they are mistaken.  I find no shame in what I'm teaching here.  It is all scriptural.  Consider this:

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The scriptures are even teaching that those that do His commandments are those that have right to the tree of life (salvation).

The scriptures here are showing a requirement of performing His commandments to obtaining access to the tree of life.  Please address this verse in your rebuttal. Again, I say that Grace doesn't exclude works - it only excludes our works.

Paul

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2009, 05:25:52 PM »
come on yall.

good works DONT save, but we are saved UNTO good works.

bottom line, who knowing Christ would not LOOK for ways to work/bless...ETC.

simple  :happy3:

dont let the word ""works"" cause problems.

chuckt.
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trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2009, 05:35:11 PM »
come on yall.

good works DONT save, but we are saved UNTO good works.

bottom line, who knowing Christ would not LOOK for ways to work/bless...ETC.

simple  :happy3:

dont let the word ""works"" cause problems.

chuckt.

But GOOD works do save.  The "unto" good works is what we are to provoke others to. The word "works" is only a problem when people commit the error of assuming that we can just believe and continue in our own works as if we shall receiving the blessings of God for simply acknowledging a favorable feeling towards what God is and His ways.  By Grace you become a branch of the vine but if that branch doesn't produce fruit - it is pruned from the vine.  Again, I submit the following verse:

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It is those that DO His commandments that receive of the Tree of Life.

Paul

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2009, 05:50:57 PM »
Quote
But GOOD works do save.


save FROM what??

Why are the disciples told in MT 24:13, MK13:13 that in order to be saved that they must endure to the end? Were not the disciples already saved? What does saved mean, anyhow? Maybe we should start following the rules of grammar and, every time we see the words saved or salvation, ask the question: "Saved from what?" and "Saved to what?".



Quote
Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It is those that DO His commandments that receive of the Tree of Life.

22:14 Happy are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the tree of life, and they may be entering the portals into the city.


whatever......

anyone INCHRIST will be doing ""works"". one dosent do works to GET SAVED.


i will not go round and round with this. we can prooftext at each other all day long.  :sigh:


The words ""saved"" and ""salvation"" have all but lost all meaning in the 21st century western world.


Good day and blessing to you.

chuckt




« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 05:55:57 PM by chuckt »
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trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2009, 06:02:07 PM »
Quote
But GOOD works do save.


save FROM what??

Why are the disciples told in MT 24:13, MK13:13 that in order to be saved that they must endure to the end? Were not the disciples already saved? What does saved mean, anyhow? Maybe we should start following the rules of grammar and, every time we see the words saved or salvation, ask the question: "Saved from what?" and "Saved to what?".



Quote
Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It is those that DO His commandments that receive of the Tree of Life.

22:14 Happy are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the tree of life, and they may be entering the portals into the city.


whatever......

anyone INCHRIST will be doing ""works"". one dosent do works to GET SAVED.


i will not go round and round with this. we can prooftext at each other all day long.  :sigh:


The words ""saved"" and ""salvation"" have all but lost all meaning in the 21st century western world.


Good day and blessing to you.

chuckt






You asked "saved from what".  The answer is saved from your sins which leads to death.  Thus if you believe that your saved and acknowledge Christ as your Lord and Savior but still are practicing sin as if to believe that your already saved then guess what? - your not saved.  It is impossible to still practice sin and be saved.

Paul

LaurieJo

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Re: Works
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2009, 06:12:27 PM »
Hi LauriJo, I'm very confident that Works are required.  Again, not my own works but the works of Christ.  If anyone is telling me that doing the works of Christ is falling from Grace, I would say they are mistaken.  I find no shame in what I'm teaching here.  It is all scriptural.  Consider this:

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The scriptures are even teaching that those that do His commandments are those that have right to the tree of life (salvation).

The scriptures here are showing a requirement of performing His commandments to obtaining access to the tree of life.  Please address this verse in your rebuttal. Again, I say that Grace doesn't exclude works - it only excludes our works.

Paul

Paul....Christ is the tree of life.
I might be misunderstanding you....but, it seems to me that you are confusing grace and faith, and don't understand the difference between "good works" and "works that justify".
Please read this article to better understand what I mean:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/SpiritOfTheWord/013FaithAndWorks.htm