Author Topic: Works  (Read 119853 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Works
« on: February 21, 2009, 04:04:56 AM »
I lifted this from an earlier post I made in another thread...

"..although I'm one that does believe in a specific "drawn by the Spirit/believing on/calling on Jesus" event of one being saved, IMO, it's very clear that is only by grace...and that we don't then earn our way somehow through works.  As I understand it, the works are a result of the grace, and the relationship with a loving Father which we want to please...and as He continues to draw us into His will and empower us.  I believe He does bring us into obedience, disciplines us as Sons, etc., but not as a way of earning [or keeping] our salvation."

I also lifted this from one of Martin's recent posts...(hope that's OK Martin, sent you a PM about it)...if not OK, please edit out.  "There was never this alls well that ends well abomination that many people nowadays mistake for Biblically [Cross and Blood-Centered] Christian Universalism."

This all got me to thinking about a topic that has been a work in progress for me my whole life...coming from an extremely legalist POV, gradually learning about grace, sometimes abusing grace, still seeking that balance/increased understanding.

A few random thoughts and POV's to which I've been exposed/experienced;

"If you don't live right, you'll backslide and go to hell...get down here to the altar and get saved again"

"If you feel convicted of your sins, then that's Satan, because God has already forgiven us everything and we're not to worry about it" -- (paraphrasing a current, well-known UR writer)

He also says "don't try to live better, just turn your eyes to God and let Him take care of it...like lifting your eyes to the sun so your pupils dilate...don't smash your eyeballs with your fingers trying to make it happen"

"We are saved by grace, kept by grace, and works are a manifestation of that"

"Works don't have to do with salvation, but are about Sonship, being one of the Chosen that rules and reigns over the nations with Christ [in the millenium/thousand year reign]".

Personally, I believe what I posted at the beginning.  But it remains a struggle, in that sometimes I really do struggle, feeling convicted, trying to please, and sometimes just outright feeling condemned.  (Oh me of little faith.)  And then there comes a season of rest, trusting in the Lord, which is a relief...then I wonder, is that because I did what I needed to do to get close again, or because I "gave up" and leaned on Him...so on it goes...but all the while, it's the process of learning "it's in Him I live, breathe, have my being"...

Anyone else exposed to any of this, or live any of this?

THE HOLY SPIRIT CONFRONTED ME WITH WHAT MY MOTIVE WAS TO POST THIS THREAD.  THIS COULD BE A DIVISIVE TOPIC.  CAN WE PLEASE USE THIS TO TRY TO HELP EACH OTHER AS BROTHERS AND SISTERS?  God's blessing, James.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 05:01:13 AM by jabcat »

Offline Dallas

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Re: Works
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2009, 06:01:14 AM »
My POV,

The whole works idea has been completley blown out of porportion. The idea of works in direct assotiation with a "saved" individual comes from James... It's quite interesting that such a huge topic in our current paridiegm is summed up quite quickly in the few paragraphs of James.

The whole odea of works as preached by Paul and Peter, John all other writers even including James are all revolving around the Law of Moses.

In Exodus 19 Israel goes into an agreement with God to work for their inheritance. That is the work references throughout the bible. Works, and dead works are always refering to Isrealites trying to become included into the promises of God by working through the law.

What Jesus accomplished is that we have been included into the promises by His works, there for let us give up our works, our attemps at gaining access into the promises of God through our works and realize what we have because of Jesus.

Those are the works we are in now, as Paul says in Hebrews 4 saying that God rested from all His works and likewise those who believe likewise enter into that rest therefore let us work diligently to enter into that rest.

How? By having our minds renewed to the truth of His works and inclusion into the the restoration of Jesus.

Online WhiteWings

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Re: Works
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2009, 10:19:05 AM »
When I read the verses quouted below I get the impressing that works are very important.
I snipped a little in the verses but they repeat the list of (examples of) works 3 times.
IMO to clear to just read over it and say 'only grace saves'.
The sheep and goats are judged over none spiritual things.
That grace eventually overrules everything I can accept.
But that there is no judgement on works I can not accept. Or I just need a proper explanation....


Matthew 25:33-46
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 
......
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.  41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 
......
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2009, 02:53:18 PM »
Quote
He also says "don't try to live better, just turn your eyes to God and let Him take care of it...like lifting your eyes to the sun so your pupils dilate...don't smash your eyeballs with your fingers trying to make it happen"

It's just the opposite. If you look at the sun your pupils would constrict. When you walk into a dark room your pupils dilate to let in more light.

Quote
"We are saved by grace, kept by grace, and works are a manifestation of that"

"Works don't have to do with salvation, but are about Sonship, being one of the Chosen that rules and reigns over the nations with Christ [in the millenium/thousand year reign]".

Personally, I believe what I posted at the beginning.  But it remains a struggle, in that sometimes I really do struggle, feeling convicted, trying to please, and sometimes just outright feeling condemned.  (Oh me of little faith.)  And then there comes a season of rest, trusting in the Lord, which is a relief...then I wonder, is that because I did what I needed to do to get close again, or because I "gave up" and leaned on Him...so on it goes...but all the while, it's the process of learning "it's in Him I live, breathe, have my being"...

Anyone else exposed to any of this, or live any of this?


I agree wholeheartedly. When we do wrong (and we will) God does not want us going through life always moaning and groaning to Him about how rotten we are. The important thing is to go to God, tell Him we are sorry but . . . but thank Him for giving His only begotten Son to die not just for that specific sin but for all our sins. This refocuses out attention away from us and out problems to Him who is perfect and loving.

Let's not forget about the Adversary who is the accuser of the brethren. He would love for us to go through our life always focusing our attention on our failures rather than on God's successes.

And our consciences . . . if they condemn us then run to God, tell Him what we've done and again, thank Him for all He has done for us. And get on with life focusing on Him!

Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

vagabond

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Re: Works
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2009, 03:49:37 PM »
I would agree we are drawn by grace and not on our own will.

But these "works" are very important, no not to us remaining saved, but they are important to our heavenly Father!

What is the purpose of putting us through such times as we endure in this realm? Doesn't God have a purpose? Isn't it his desire to be fully expressed? To fully express the Father we must fully understand his opinion. To get that we must be willing to suffer greatly. We don't have too! It's not a "condition", it may be a request, but it will only be attempted by those who love the Father more then they love their own moment in this realm.



As for the "works", what are they?  Faith, faith is a verb, it's an action. Faith is "calling" (present tense) those things which seem not as though they were. The work of faith is knowing in your heart that you are complete in him and then walking like it and acting like it.

Faith gives us confidence. But Faith must be exercised or it's weak and not as useful. Why? Because we need faith or we're doomed? No, because without faith we cannot please God, but the greater our faith the greater his pleasure. So it's no longer about us! It's no longer working out our salvation for us, because we need to or else! It's about the Father! It's about expressing something that is worth expressing.

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


What does he mean, "unto the appearance of Jesus Christ"? If Christ is in you, and he is, then how does he appear? Isn't it through the exercise of our faith. Calling those things which "appear" not as though they are real. If the kingdom is within in you, GREAT! You're good to go. But for some reason our heavenly Father wants to be fully expressed in this realm, and his full expression must come through people. If Christ is to ever fully appear in this earthly realm again, someones faith is going to have to endure the test of fire.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Faith is confessing(an action) those things we know in our heart, not just verbal language, but body language as well. It's our current understanding that will be changed(saved).  Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


That you may prove, or show, or express fully, what is the good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Why? Not for you! Remember, you are all taken care of, it's not about you, it's about him! That's why Paul, John, Peter, James and the others worked so hard to express HIM. They loved him and desired to do his will and not just live a happy life for themselves.....though they could have if they could have quenched the burning desire of their love for God and not themselves.

Let this be our goal in this realm:Psalm 40:8 (King James Version)

 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart
.




Offline CHB

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Re: Works
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2009, 06:19:08 PM »
I posted this on another forum and also used this as a Bible study in a Baptist Church. I don't think any one got it though.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you really stop and think about it, our works have gotten us into trouble with God and man since the beginning of time. Works have caused man  to be proud, self righteous, boastful. Our so called works have been used to try to please and impress God and man.

Adam and Eve:

God told them not to eat of the tree of good and evil, which he knew they would. They did and their nakedness, {or sin} was uncovered. They tried to cover their nakedness by their own works. They made themselves clothes out of fig leaves. Now you know what a big puff of wind would do to that?  (Gen. 3:7)         
God had to make them clothes out of skin, probably sheep. First sacrifice, blood had to be shed, nakedness, {or sins} was covered. Adam and Eve's work, was useless. The sheep or lamb represented Christ and the coats of skin represents the covering of sin (Gen. 3:21). This was a foreshadow of the coming of Christ to die for the world. Adam and Eve tried to cover their sins by their own works, in making clothes out of fig leaves.

Then we have Cain:

Cain and Abel both offered sacrifices to God. Cain offered the works of his hands, the sweat of his brow. Able offered a sheep, a foreshadow of Christ. (Gen. 4:3-5) Now, Cain probably thought he worked harder than Abel, after all a garden takes a lot of work. He thought God would be more pleased with his offering since he worked with his own hands preparing it. Do you see pride developing? God wasn't pleased with Cain's offering. Why? Cain tried to please God by his own works, which resulted in being jealous and envious of Abel. Which led to murder. It was Cain's attitude and intentions of the heart about his own works that got him into trouble, not the works themselves. Even though God wasn't pleased with Cain's offering he told him if he did well he would be accepted. {Heb: Have the excellency}

Then we have Job:

Job was rich and respected in the streets by all the men. Enough to make one prideful. In Job's eyes he was righteous because of his works.  Job said "I have been eyes to the blind, I have fed the poor, I have been father to the fatherless. (Job 29:12-17) Do you see the I's here? Job couldn't understand why God was giving him all these trials because he had done everything perfect. Works!!! Do you see a pattern, a puffing up, a boastful prideful pattern when it comes to our works?  Job didn't mention God when he was pointing out the works he had done. He forgot to mention that it was God who gave him everything in order for him to do all the things he bragged about doing. Do you see pride and boastfulness here?  (Job 42:5-6)  Job said "I have heard of you but now mine eye seeth thee". "Wherefore, I abhor myself".  Something we all must come to do. It wasn't the works that Job did that was  bad or wrong, it was Job's attitude, intention, thoughts, and heart concerning those works, he only looked to himself, not God. When Job came to see he wasn't all that great and how little he was compared to God, he came to abhor himself. God said "where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth"? God told Job if he could deck himself with majesty and excellency and array himself with glory and beauty, bring the proud down low, tread down the wicked, then God would confess that Job's own right hand could save him (Job 40:10-14).  Save him from the wretchedness he was in. If Job was so good, great, and mighty, he could restore himself to where he was before.

Then we go to Nebuchadnezzar:

Nebuchadnezzar had a dream and Daniel interpreted it for the king and told him his kingdom would be taken away and what would happen. What did Nebchadnezzar do? He walked into the palace and said "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power". (Dan. 4:30-31) From that moment the kingdom was taken away from him. Nebuchadnezzar bragged about his works.  God showed Nebuchadnezzar he wasn't as great as he thought he was. What did Nebuchadnezzar come to see? (Dan. 4:37) "Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase. Nebuchadnezzar's works made him proud and boastful. This is where our works, …or attitude about our works,  gets us into trouble.

Then we come to the Pharisees:

Jesus called them hypocrites, vipers, snakes, I call them a bunch of do do's. Lots of works, do this do that. They followed Jesus around trying to find things to accuse him of.  They were proud, boastful, used their works to honor themselves and look good to man. This is what our attitude about our works does for us, it causes us to look inward to ourselves instead of upward to God for all things. (Matt. 23:5-7) Jesus said "all their works they do for to be seen of men". They put works above love, mercy, compassion, forgiveness (Matt. 23:23).   Jesus said "they loved to stand in the market place and say long prayers and wear clothes that drew attention to themselves.  They tried to look righteous to others.

Another example is the Pharisee and the Publican who went into the temple to pray (Luke18:10-13) The Pharisee prayed "God I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice a week I give tithes of all that I possess". Isn't this a pride, boastful attitude? The publican prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner". Even though the Pharisee did the works that was required of him, he made them void by his attitude and self righteousness. His works made him boastful, proud, and self righteous. God wasn't even pleased with his prayer.

Do you see a continual pattern here?

Then we come to Paul:

Paul wasn't self righteous. He was different from the rest. Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us". Not by works of righteousness that we have done  (Tit. 3:5).  Paul said "if righteousness came by the works of the law, {any law,} then Christ is dead in vain" (Gal. 2:21).    Paul came to see that our works wasn't important as far as our salvation was concerned.  (Eph. 2:8-10) "For by grace are ye saved through faith and that {faith} not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED {Heb: prepared} that we should walk in them". So, any good works we do they were already prepared, that we would do them. All these works that were bragged about, made men boastful, proud, self righteous, was not really their works, but God's. It was their attitude, intentions, heart, that Job and Nebuchadnezzar came to see that was wrong. They should have thanked and praised God for giving them the opportunity and means to do these things that they took credit for.

Here are the works that are most important.  (Gal. 5:22-26)  "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance".  If you notice there are no keeping of Holydays mentioned, no tithing, fasting, praying. All of these are outward appearances, they are not spiritual. God seeks for us to worship him in Spirit and truth (John 4:23-24). Not by any works that we can brag about.  All of these are spiritual works. But even these works are not our works but Christ working in us. How can I say this?   (Gal. 2:20)  (Rom. 6:6-11)  We are dead in Christ. Dead people don't work. It is no longer us working, but Christ working in us. We cannot brag, boast, or be self righteous about anything we do. If we do we are not giving God the glory, we are exalting our selves.

Even the good works we do can make us proud, boastful, and self  righteous, this is what happened to Job. He didn't give God all the glory, honor, and praise for the works he did, he gave it to himself. It was his attitude, thoughts, and intentions of the heart about his works that God showed him was wrong.

Christ told his disciples they had to deny themselves. What does that mean?  I think it means to give God all the praise and glory for all things that we do no matter what it is, instead of claiming glory for ourselves. We have to come to the place that Job and Nebuchadnezzar did. Job said "I abhor myself". Nebuchadnezzar said "I blessed the most high, and I praised and honoured him". 

We should always remember, (Phil. 2:13) "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure".   Not our pleasure, not our works. (Phil.. 3:9)  "not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith". {Christ's faith} Any of the do's are law, which is our own righteousness. Our works cannot save us, they cannot make us righteous. When we claim our own works as our own all we get is self righteousness and a prideful, boastful, puffed up attitude.

We have absolutely nothing to boast, be proud, or self righteous, about.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

One other thing that is good to remember is... and some might not agree with me here.

The books of the Bible are out of order in most of the translations. Paul's works should be positioned last in the Bible, not James, Peter, or John. This is what makes it confusing. The writings of James, Peter, and John, were all written to the Jew's who were under the Law. This is why you see works preached in these epistles. Only the Jew's were under the New Covenant, not Gentiles. Even Paul when he first started went to the Jew's first but later to the Gentiles. You can see a difference in Pauls first writings from later, starting in Ephesians onward.

CHB

   

IceDash

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Re: Works
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2009, 10:19:08 PM »
but paul did said he was boastful.

Offline claypot

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Re: Works
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2009, 10:40:41 PM »
CHB, you wrote.......

If you really stop and think about it, our works have gotten us into trouble with God and man since the beginning of time. Works have caused man  to be proud, self righteous, boastful. Our so called works have been used to try to please and impress God and man.

Got me to thinkin. Did God really create us expecting us not to do wrong? Think about it. Put 20 people in a room with a button on the wall and tell them not to push it. Maybe some of them wouldn't actually push it but all of them would wonder about it. You just can't do that to people.

Now here's God putting a button right in front of people and saying "Don't push that. Isn't this a nice day? Nice ear rings, Eve." I mean there's probably not that much to do in the garden so they must have had quite a bit of time to wonder about things and I bet that tree was a big wondering event.

What do people do wrong anyway? Eat from apple trees? In other words what do people do that is so foreign to their natures? Try telling a fish not to swim. People eat fruit from trees, they lie, steal, kill, make love, laugh and so on. These desires are within them. Why the big surprise if we do what is within us?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2009, 11:25:31 PM »


  CP

   Mercy could not be 'known' for what it is,neither 'GRACE'

  nor perfection of the Sons of God...without undergoing

  the expierence of evil. Evil is necessary to develope and show

  forth the sterling qualities of mercy[undeserved kindness,]

  nor could long-suffering/endurance or compassion be manifest.



  EVIL provides that which causes  suffering and hardship.


     Mercy and forgiveness...just consider..if God had made

    all His children sinless to begin with...how would

   compassion for the suffering and mercy be shown.


  It is an aspect of His Holy Spirit Nature that we as His children

  must also have developed in us.We would be incomplete

  in all of the qualities of love....He demands ALL of the fruit.

    Otherwise we may be righteous..but hard-hearted..not having

   compassion on the suffering[not knowing wht to suffer is.


  Is love really LOVE, without mercy and compassion?

   THE FULLNESS OF LOVE OF OUR FATHER AND CHRIST

    MUST BE DEVELOPED IN US.


  It was no design flaw of His, this expierence with evil

  we all undergo here.He has it all under control


   CHB loved that post about works


                  Sheila


Offline claypot

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Re: Works
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2009, 11:55:03 PM »


  CP

   Mercy could not be 'known' for what it is,neither 'GRACE'

  nor perfection of the Sons of God...without undergoing

  the expierence of evil. Evil is necessary to develope and show

  forth the sterling qualities of mercy[undeserved kindness,]

  nor could long-suffering/endurance or compassion be manifest.



  EVIL provides that which causes  suffering and hardship.


     Mercy and forgiveness...just consider..if God had made

    all His children sinless to begin with...how would

   compassion for the suffering and mercy be shown.


  It is an aspect of His Holy Spirit Nature that we as His children

  must also have developed in us.We would be incomplete

  in all of the qualities of love....He demands ALL of the fruit.

    Otherwise we may be righteous..but hard-hearted..not having

   compassion on the suffering[not knowing wht to suffer is.


  Is love really LOVE, without mercy and compassion?

   THE FULLNESS OF LOVE OF OUR FATHER AND CHRIST

    MUST BE DEVELOPED IN US.


  It was no design flaw of His, this expierence with evil

  we all undergo here.He has it all under control


   CHB loved that post about works


                  Sheila



I hear ya but of course the argument is, so God needs some little girl to get raped and then butchered to teach us about mercy. It really doesn't compute and I am not arguing here at all, just calling it like I see it.

I would rather not know mercy and compassion if it costs so much but this is not my show, it is Gods so all must be right, right?

I also think God can make some pretty deep and understanding creatures without the tortures, rapes, cancers and what not. God doesn't need anything or anyone to create 'out of this world' things within and without.

My thoughts are God does what He wants, when He wants and what He creates, black and white, should be thrilled just to be part of it.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2009, 12:14:29 AM »


  I hear you,CP. That little girl died at the hands of evil..

  just like Christ did.[Rose] I hate it,too. I think He is also


developing a real HATRED OF EVIL IN US.


  It is  traumatizing..this world..the evil and

  suffering  in it.


                              Sheila

Offline claypot

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Re: Works
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 12:33:56 AM »


  I hear you,CP. That little girl died at the hands of evil..

  just like Christ did.[Rose] I hate it,too. I think He is also


developing a real HATRED OF EVIL IN US.


  It is  traumatizing..this world..the evil and

  suffering  in it.


                              Sheila

And again, not arguing, but even with the evil that abounds, the buck stops with God. I say this with the utmost respect, of course, for God but there is no denying that God thought this whole, and I mean whole, thing up. Evil is included in this whole, don't you agree? However you look at it, this is Gods show. Many players but one director and producer in the ultimate sense.

'Heaven' has got to be one crazy realm if this earth is any indication of the degree Gods thoughts can go!

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

SpiritDriven

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Re: Works
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2009, 12:42:58 AM »
Personally, I believe what I posted at the beginning.  But it remains a struggle, in that sometimes I really do struggle, feeling convicted, trying to please, and sometimes just outright feeling condemned.  (Oh me of little faith.)  And then there comes a season of rest, trusting in the Lord, which is a relief...then I wonder, is that because I did what I needed to do to get close again, or because I "gave up" and leaned on Him...so on it goes...but all the while, it's the process of learning "it's in Him I live, breathe, have my being"...

Anyone else exposed to any of this, or live any of this?


Hey Jabcat...you where describing me there, Im living it as well.

I sponser 2 young kids through World Vision, a boy and a Girl the boy is from Ecuador, the Girl from Myanmar (Burma)

Ephesians 2
10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.


Am going to come back with a Link from U Tube for you, on a very good teaching about how the Holy Spirit does not convict us of Sin....

back soon...

SpiritDriven

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Re: Works
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2009, 12:45:36 AM »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2009, 02:29:21 AM »


I think we should do what we can and not live in the shadow of guilt from others who have decided what someone should do. 

Each person reading this thread has no idea that there are people that you have helped; You may not even be aware of it.   You may even look at yourself and think your not doing enough, that you do not measure up.   In reality you always measure up to Gods love, we as humans simply have not reached the glory of God yet.

When you think of works, what exactly comes to mind for what you should measure up too? 

To me the key is doing what you can because you really want to, maybe doing some things when you may not feel like it because its the right thing to do.

If you missed an opportunity, look for one tomorrow, or the next day, or the day after that.   The story of Lots wife looking back is not about Gods judgment per sey, it is the killing spirit of regret concerning things we cannot do anything about.

Look forward, do the best you can with what you have.


Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2009, 03:21:15 AM »
Hello Jabcat...

Here is the Link... http://gracewalkministries.blogspot.com/2008/03/101-lies-taught-in-church-every-sunday_12.html

Enjoy

Enjoying the posts...good points Paul and others.  Thanks SpiritDriven...I'll check it out.   :thumbsup:

Offline CHB

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Re: Works
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2009, 08:52:26 PM »
Quote from: claypot
Got me to thinkin. Did God really create us expecting us not to do wrong? Think about it. Put 20 people in a room with a button on the wall and tell them not to push it. Maybe some of them wouldn't actually push it but all of them would wonder about it. You just can't do that to people.

Of course God expects us to do exactly what we do. I think what we do is for our own good no matter what it is, that's the way it was planned. God has all the answers and He knows the end of all things which will be good when all is said and done. I think we are going through a process. You know, like God isn't finished with me yet, at least I hope not.

CHB

Offline legoman

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Re: Works
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2009, 03:48:39 PM »
CHB, you wrote.......

If you really stop and think about it, our works have gotten us into trouble with God and man since the beginning of time. Works have caused man  to be proud, self righteous, boastful. Our so called works have been used to try to please and impress God and man.

Got me to thinkin. Did God really create us expecting us not to do wrong? Think about it. Put 20 people in a room with a button on the wall and tell them not to push it. Maybe some of them wouldn't actually push it but all of them would wonder about it. You just can't do that to people.

Now here's God putting a button right in front of people and saying "Don't push that. Isn't this a nice day? Nice ear rings, Eve." I mean there's probably not that much to do in the garden so they must have had quite a bit of time to wonder about things and I bet that tree was a big wondering event.

What do people do wrong anyway? Eat from apple trees? In other words what do people do that is so foreign to their natures? Try telling a fish not to swim. People eat fruit from trees, they lie, steal, kill, make love, laugh and so on. These desires are within them. Why the big surprise if we do what is within us?

cp


Hi cp,

I think you hit the nail on the head here (perhaps without realizing it?)... anyway:  Yes, God did put us in the garden with a big button and told us not to push it... knowing full well that we would push the button and in fact he intended that we would.

Why would He do such a thing?  So we would know what it is like.  So we would fully understand evil and unrighteousness - this is a requirement to become righteous.

Cheers,
Legoman "Just another claypot like you"  :winkgrin:

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2009, 05:10:15 PM »
legoman, did he hit the "Easy" button?  :laughing7:
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Dallas

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Re: Works
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2009, 06:54:04 PM »
Hey Legoman,

Quote
Why would He do such a thing?  So we would know what it is like.  So we would fully understand evil and unrighteousness - this is a requirement to become righteous.

I realize that many people believe this, but I can't see any biblical reasoning to support this. Where do you get this from the bible?

Offline legoman

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Re: Works
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2009, 08:50:26 PM »
Hey Legoman,

Quote
Why would He do such a thing?  So we would know what it is like.  So we would fully understand evil and unrighteousness - this is a requirement to become righteous.

I realize that many people believe this, but I can't see any biblical reasoning to support this. Where do you get this from the bible?

God is making us into his image - he is making us into his own Sons & Daughters.  Jesus was the prototype.

2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
 2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


So we are to become sons & daughters of God.  But in order to become sons of God, we must be refined, scourged, and purified. God loves us as sons, and every son will be scourged by him:

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.


Now, why is all this evil in the world?  Let's look at Ecc 1:13 in a few different versions:

Ecc 1:13 [KJV] ... this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
Ecc 1:13 [YLT] ... It [is] a sad travail God hath given to the sons of man to be humbled by it.
Ecc 1:13 [COV] ... It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it

The concordant old testament version [COV] gives us the best meaning here:  God has given us an experience of evil so we will be humbled.  In fact men become snared in evil:

Ecc 9:23 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

Part of this is the many trials & judgements we will have to face.  Yes, we too will have to go through our own form of judgements.  Everyone is judged at one time or another, and it begins with us, the house of God:

1 Peter 4:12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
...
1 Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


But the judging is very important - it is the very vehicle that will make us righteous:
Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


So through judgement we will be made righteous, and eventually we will be presented faultless (perfect - righteous) to God:

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


So as you can see, God has a grand plan, and it all started with us pushing the button (eating from the tree of good and evil - the first sin), so that God could form us into his image.  Along the way there will be a lot of evil, trials, scourging, chastising, and judgement that we must endure.  But it is all for the glorious purpose of being made righteous.

The verses I presented are just a small subset - in fact the whole bible is describing this plan.  However not everyone sees it, mainly because God has sent a strong delsusion (2 Thes 2:11) and has bound us over to disobedience (Romans 11:32) so he may eventually have mercy on us all.

There are pages and pages that have been written on this if you want to read more...

Legoman
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 08:54:37 PM by legoman »

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2009, 09:13:13 PM »
Hi lego man

seems very much the explaination L Ray Smith.....

I kinda few those scripts in Eccl as Under the SUN,that of the natural existance which for mine relate somewhat to the OLD C..the Old man...

As for EVIL, maybe  a relative term for ignorance...

For God HAS set the WORLD in the HEART of MEN. MAYBE  both the GLORY of the OLD and the GREATER GLORY of the NEW. Christ HID in the hearts of MEN? The Pearl of GREAT price?

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
anyways Just a Thought

Blessings
T
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline legoman

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Re: Works
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2009, 09:21:38 PM »
Hi lego man

seems very much the explaination L Ray Smith.....

I kinda few those scripts in Eccl as Under the SUN,that of the natural existance which for mine relate somewhat to the OLD C..the Old man...

As for EVIL, maybe  a relative term for ignorance...

For God HAS set the WORLD in the HEART of MEN. MAYBE  both the GLORY of the OLD and the GREATER GLORY of the NEW. Christ HID in the hearts of MEN? The Pearl of GREAT price?

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
anyways Just a Thought

Blessings
T


Yes as you can tell I read alot of Ray Smith's stuff.  It makes sense to me...

Ecc 3:11 is another good one, I almost quoted it as well...  everything is beautiful in his time - I read that as relating to Ecc 3:1 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven"  - basically there is a reason for everything that happens, and no man can figure it all out.  Although I hope He explains it all to us some day...

Legoman

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2009, 09:53:12 PM »
Hi lego man

seems very much the explaination L Ray Smith.....

I kinda few those scripts in Eccl as Under the SUN,that of the natural existance which for mine relate somewhat to the OLD C..the Old man...

As for EVIL, maybe  a relative term for ignorance...

For God HAS set the WORLD in the HEART of MEN. MAYBE  both the GLORY of the OLD and the GREATER GLORY of the NEW. Christ HID in the hearts of MEN? The Pearl of GREAT price?

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
anyways Just a Thought

Blessings
T


Yes as you can tell I read alot of Ray Smith's stuff.  It makes sense to me...

Ecc 3:11 is another good one, I almost quoted it as well...  everything is beautiful in his time - I read that as relating to Ecc 3:1 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven"  - basically there is a reason for everything that happens, and no man can figure it all out.  Although I hope He explains it all to us some day...

Legoman

Hi Dallas :icon_flower:
excuse the typo.... VIEW those scrips.... :mblush:

Theres seasons bro yup AMEN :icon_flower:

..Moving from ONE season to another..from ONE age to ANother

Doesnt Ray equally state that scriptures one big parable...for Me ,scripture in essence speaks very much of the OLD and the NEW(Cs)..which Both testify of HIM


Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Seems for me at least  bro, that the pharisees  FAILED TO SEE the **** SIGN **** of the TIMES, The coming of a a NEW DAY , NEW SEASON , AND NEW YEAR(50TH Jubilee, The acceptable YEAR of our LORD?}

Mat 16:3 And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times?

Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: 

SEEMS AGAIN Times and seasons are NOT known to**man** But he cometh

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Moving from that which is Under the SON, Old man, to that which is ABOVE , the New man Maybe?


Ecc 3:11 is another good one, I almost quoted it as well...  everything is beautiful in his time - I read that as relating to Ecc 3:1 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven"  - basically there is a reason for everything that happens, and no man can figure it all out.  Although I hope He explains it all to us some day...

Blessings Bro..Thanks for sharing :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 09:56:38 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2009, 08:40:58 PM »
To understand this subject we must establish if works are ever required to be saved in the scriptures:

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

To receive aionios Life is to be saved.  Here in those verses we clearly see that the aionios life is given as a direct result of works.  But the scriptures seems contradicting at first because we read this:

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So what is the explaination?  - the explaination is that the works mentioned in Romans 2:6 and those in Ephesians 2:9 derive from two difference sources.  Those in Romans 2:6 are actually the works of the Christ while those in Ephesians 2:9 are referring to those of man. 

They way to think of it is this.  Consider that ALL Good works are copyrighted by the Christ.  All evil works are those are our own.  If I wrote a book and another man went before a large assembly and lectured the crowd from my book and received applause because of what was contained in the message then I should be the one receiving the glory not the one giving the lecture.  I'm the rightful owner.  Likewise, Christ owns all GOOD works.  They are His.  Even if we should perform Good works - we should never take credit for that which is the Good that we do but rather give such praise to our Lord Jesus for it is Him performing a work through us.  This is where salvation is.  Salvation is the manifestation of His works through us.  We must become CHRIST-like!  Many references to this conformance are expressed in the scriptures including becoming members of His Body and having the mind of Christ. 

Many that disagree with this will quote the verses from the beginning of Romans 4 but often leave out or fail to comprehend the first verse.

Rom 4:1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

That is a key piece of this verse.  This reference of "to the flesh" shows that were specifically speaking about the works of Abraham and not according to the works of Faith (which are of Christ).

It should be no wonder then that we are exhorted to provoke others unto Good works:

Heb 10:24  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Paul