Author Topic: Works  (Read 118776 times)

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Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #425 on: March 07, 2009, 12:57:15 PM »
If we don't consider the evangels of the circumcision and uncircumcision, rightly cutting the Word, how is this scripture reconciled with working to keep salvation?  "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" 

AMEN!AMEN!AMEN!AMEN!AMEN!AMEN!AMEN!AMEN!AMEN!AMEN!AMEN!
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #426 on: March 07, 2009, 02:33:46 PM »
Quote
Consider this pneuma, would you agree that those were Paul's brethren if they are babes in Christ?


Hi Paul,

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ

Yes they were Paul's brethren according to his own words.


Quote
And if they are babes in Christ then Christ is working.  Christ is never idle.  Sure they are not yet perfected but Christ is transforming them.  All our mortal lives we are being transformed.

I agree that He is indeed working in them, but the Father does not send a babe out to WORK in the field for a babe is not yet fully equipped to withstand. Jesus Himself did not fully enter into His calling until He was about 30 years of age, yet He grew in GRACE with God and man. The Father always waits to send forth His chosen vessel until they are mature enough to withstand all that will come there way.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #427 on: March 07, 2009, 02:35:49 PM »
:cloud9: As a side note..... Noah found grace in God's eyes, yet he still had to work to build an ark. We too are working to build an ark, as we are obedient to apply whatever is quickened to us, ie. we are putting on Christ, the new ark that will raise us up above the waters of judgment (death contained in the law/letter). Blessings....
So, Noah didn't rush out to feed the poor--he did what God directed him to do.

Is that what works is?  For each of us, it might be something different?

Hi Molly do whatever God tells you to do, if He tells you to do nothing that still doing His work, it is all in what He says for you to do.
Ok that's good--I agree with that.  But, not to beg a point, how do you know you are doing what God wants you to do? 

By the fruit that you bring forth.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #428 on: March 07, 2009, 02:49:24 PM »
Quote
So, in summary for me, at this moment...yes there are works, but they are only done by Him through me..

Hi Jab, for me yes He does the works through me and in cooperation from me, in other words we must cooperate with Him or the work will not be preformed.

Jesus is the HEAD of the body of Christ and the HEAD cannot say to the FEET I have no need of you. The WHOLE body of Christ MUST WORK together as ONE body.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #429 on: March 07, 2009, 03:46:20 PM »
Quote
"…we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified…"

well, because we cannot do works of the law without him, otherwise we would be like the Pharisees, full of dead men's bones, trying to rely on ourselves and failing.

That is not to say that with him we are not doing works of the law, right?

We are, we should be--



John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Deuteronomy 5:10
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.


Christ works are the Law.  But we need to make a distinction.  Christ works are not the exercise of the letter of the law which were done away with.

Paul

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #430 on: March 07, 2009, 03:47:20 PM »
Thanks, Jab...

And now that I've read a bit more of this thread, I do understand more of where Paul (trettep) is coming from. The wording used is confusing at times, hence the seven pages of clarifying posts since I checked the thread last night.  :laughing7:


Anyway, Paul... I think I understand where you're coming from now (And I do actually agree with a lot of what you were saying while you were clarifying your position), but there is just a little something about the way you're saying certain things that is a little unsettling to me. Could just be a question of semantics, though.

My sentiments EXACTLY . . . something isn't fully settled with this whole idea of works leading to grace thing . . . nor will it for me . . .Grace abounds . . .for me it was Grace that called, brought and cleansed me THEN the manifestations of that experience began to come forth . . .

For me, the wording may be the problem as much as the motive behind it . .but I'm not sure yet.  I do believe works are very much a part of the church as they mature in Christ . . I've said this all along . . . but to the mature . . .I believe it is not a badge to wave over those we think are still in their spiritual youth and ignorance, but instead it's yet another way of seeing light and coming into rest as our air we breathe rather than works.  And . .as stated before . . .the end result that we "used" to come to when we were in ministry and works . .we still get in rest . .but it's no longer through the labor of us, we're not working . . .we're simply "functioning" in the ministries that we're equipped to do . . .just like conduit . . .it isn't working .. . it's simply functioning within the purpose for which it was made . . .it's not what it "does" that defines it . .it's what it "is".  

I just do not see that manifesting Christ's works in us is what maintains our salvation in him . . .it was a gift . . and it's not a high-maintenance gift . . .it's a free gift that brings freedom . . .strapping myself to someone's idea of salvation maintenance is not my idea of freedom.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #431 on: March 07, 2009, 03:51:52 PM »
Quote
"…we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified…"

well, because we cannot do works of the law without him, otherwise we would be like the Pharisees, full of dead men's bones, trying to rely on ourselves and failing.

That is not to say that with him we are not doing works of the law, right?

We are, we should be--



John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Deuteronomy 5:10
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.


Christ works are the Law.  But we need to make a distinction.  Christ works are not the exercise of the letter of the law which were done away with.

Paul

There are only two laws Paul . . .love and love.

Matthew 22
34-36When the Pharisees heard how he had bested the Sadducees, they gathered their forces for an assault. One of their religion scholars spoke for them, posing a question they hoped would show him up: "Teacher, which command in God's Law is the most important?"
 37-40Jesus said, "'Love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence.' This is the most important, the first on any list. But there is a second to set alongside it: 'Love others as well as you love yourself.' These two commands are pegs; everything in God's Law and the Prophets hangs from them."

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #432 on: March 07, 2009, 03:54:18 PM »
Thanks, Jab...

And now that I've read a bit more of this thread, I do understand more of where Paul (trettep) is coming from. The wording used is confusing at times, hence the seven pages of clarifying posts since I checked the thread last night.  :laughing7:


Anyway, Paul... I think I understand where you're coming from now (And I do actually agree with a lot of what you were saying while you were clarifying your position), but there is just a little something about the way you're saying certain things that is a little unsettling to me. Could just be a question of semantics, though.

Doc, I often believe that I'm a horrible speaker on these things.  But I have learned a lot about what is working by getting feedback from many here.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #433 on: March 07, 2009, 03:58:40 PM »
That's what I was pestering Paul about, too  :icon_joker:.  I.e., do you think you keep yourself saved by your works, or that Jesus keeps us saved by His works through us..what I call "Him empowering us to do His will"?  I'm still not sure I exactly know where Paul stands on that...I will tell you one thing though...I personally can't keep myself saved...I submit myself, present myself to Him (which again, He helps me do), and He helps me learn a little more daily how to do His will...but I can't do it without Him...

People I see that think they have some sort of power within themselves to "please God", IMO, often tend to be the ones that are the most judgmental, divisive, and don't make for the family members most likely to break bread with....I've been (and still sometimes are) one...they say it takes one to know one  :sigh:


Jabcat, I will have some other discussions about the Law and the Spirit that I hope will shed some light to you help you to understand more.  So please be sure to look for those threads. I have started one on the Law and hope to post more there shortly.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #434 on: March 07, 2009, 03:59:54 PM »
Quote
Consider this pneuma, would you agree that those were Paul's brethren if they are babes in Christ?


Hi Paul,

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ

Yes they were Paul's brethren according to his own words.


Quote
And if they are babes in Christ then Christ is working.  Christ is never idle.  Sure they are not yet perfected but Christ is transforming them.  All our mortal lives we are being transformed.

I agree that He is indeed working in them, but the Father does not send a babe out to WORK in the field for a babe is not yet fully equipped to withstand. Jesus Himself did not fully enter into His calling until He was about 30 years of age, yet He grew in GRACE with God and man. The Father always waits to send forth His chosen vessel until they are mature enough to withstand all that will come there way.


I agree pneuma.

Paul

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #435 on: March 08, 2009, 08:15:26 PM »
That's what I was pestering Paul about, too  :icon_joker:.  I.e., do you think you keep yourself saved by your works, or that Jesus keeps us saved by His works through us..what I call "Him empowering us to do His will"?  I'm still not sure I exactly know where Paul stands on that...I will tell you one thing though...I personally can't keep myself saved...I submit myself, present myself to Him (which again, He helps me do), and He helps me learn a little more daily how to do His will...but I can't do it without Him...

People I see that think they have some sort of power within themselves to "please God", IMO, often tend to be the ones that are the most judgmental, divisive, and don't make for the family members most likely to break bread with....I've been (and still sometimes are) one...they say it takes one to know one  :sigh:


Jabcat, I will have some other discussions about the Law and the Spirit that I hope will shed some light to you help you to understand more.  So please be sure to look for those threads. I have started one on the Law and hope to post more there shortly.

Paul

I think we all need to understand more, including that our righteousness is as filthy rags...and unfortunately, when I  attempt to push my personal understandings on others, there comes a point to where those rags begin to smell. 

May I strive to "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor".
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 08:20:37 PM by jabcat »

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #436 on: March 08, 2009, 08:56:38 PM »
I think we all need to understand more, including that our righteousness is as filthy rags...and unfortunately, when I  attempt to push my personal understandings on others, there comes a point to where those rags begin to smell. 

May I strive to "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor".

My concern is that people read the fact that it is not by our works that we are saved and then continue on being themselves with a twist that they now acknowledge Jesus as the savior.  If that is happening then they are committing blasphemy (holding cheap then nature of Christ).  We can no longer be ourselves.  He will love those that persecute Him, ourselves will not do that.  It should be no wonder that we are to PROVOKE others towards Good works.


Paul

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #437 on: March 08, 2009, 09:05:46 PM »
I think we all need to understand more, including that our righteousness is as filthy rags...and unfortunately, when I  attempt to push my personal understandings on others, there comes a point to where those rags begin to smell. 

May I strive to "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor".

My concern is that people read the fact that it is not by our works that we are saved and then continue on being themselves with a twist that they now acknowledge Jesus as the savior.  If that is happening then they are committing blasphemy (holding cheap then nature of Christ).  We can no longer be ourselves.  He will love those that persecute Him, ourselves will not do that.  It should be no wonder that we are to PROVOKE others towards Good works.
Paul

I understand that, but on the other hand, I think we need to be very careful in how we present that...not bringing a yoke of bondage to those that have been freed by the blood of Jesus.  I hear your heart here, but IMO, if we're not very careful, we can encourage people to get their focus on works and off of Jesus.  That's why for me personally, I believe in stressing obedience, submitting to Him and His will, but that it's only through His grace and the power of the Holy Spirit that we get our next breath, much less presume to please Him.  Don't be discouraged, encourage...I think we can go too far either way, making things sound like condoning either disobedience or focus on our own abilities...it's my POV that falling in either direction is unfruitful.  Believe me, I've had concerns the other way...I don't see scripture advocating sinning more, not paying attention to it, grace will take care of it...IMO, that's mis-using grace, "should I sin more that grace would more abound"...but again, as I understand it, all my strength and ability is from and throught our Master... :thumbsup:

Anyway, thanks for disucssing this with me, I think that's a good thing.

God's blessing, James.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 09:15:16 PM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #438 on: March 08, 2009, 10:09:59 PM »
I think we all need to understand more, including that our righteousness is as filthy rags...and unfortunately, when I  attempt to push my personal understandings on others, there comes a point to where those rags begin to smell. 

May I strive to "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor".

My concern is that people read the fact that it is not by our works that we are saved and then continue on being themselves with a twist that they now acknowledge Jesus as the savior.  If that is happening then they are committing blasphemy (holding cheap then nature of Christ).  We can no longer be ourselves.  He will love those that persecute Him, ourselves will not do that.  It should be no wonder that we are to PROVOKE others towards Good works.


Paul
I have a friend who has been learning about Jesus for a few years now.  She is slowly changing, but she falls back a lot into confusion and doubt, even today.   She's very double-minded.  I keep telling her she has to read the scriptures every day.  For some reason, she won't do that, yet.  She tries for a week or so and then stops.   I am convinced that this is very important, and maybe the one thing that everyone could do to press into Christ and that is guaranteed to produce fruit.

7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

--Deut 6


Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #439 on: March 08, 2009, 10:17:15 PM »
Amen Molly...being filled with Him.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #440 on: March 09, 2009, 12:28:22 AM »
I understand that, but on the other hand, I think we need to be very careful in how we present that...not bringing a yoke of bondage to those that have been freed by the blood of Jesus.  I hear your heart here, but IMO, if we're not very careful, we can encourage people to get their focus on works and off of Jesus.  That's why for me personally, I believe in stressing obedience, submitting to Him and His will, but that it's only through His grace and the power of the Holy Spirit that we get our next breath, much less presume to please Him.  Don't be discouraged, encourage...I think we can go too far either way, making things sound like condoning either disobedience or focus on our own abilities...it's my POV that falling in either direction is unfruitful.  Believe me, I've had concerns the other way...I don't see scripture advocating sinning more, not paying attention to it, grace will take care of it...IMO, that's mis-using grace, "should I sin more that grace would more abound"...but again, as I understand it, all my strength and ability is from and throught our Master... :thumbsup:

Anyway, thanks for disucssing this with me, I think that's a good thing.

God's blessing, James.

I think we need to put everyone's thoughts on works.  Those works of the Christ.  I think we need to Provoke them to do Good works:

Heb 10:24  and may we consider one another to provoke to love and to good works,

His works are those of Love.  We just need for everyone to ensure they are distinguish between which works they are to perform and which ones they are not to perform.  Those of Christ we are to perform.  Those of our flesh, we are not to perform.

Paul

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Works
« Reply #441 on: March 09, 2009, 01:34:17 AM »
Grace

"Understanding without the presence of His Spirit is like trying to eat without swallowing."

Christ is the finished work of the Father, and we are (in)cluded as being complete in Him. Therefore, to experience His Grace, is to know that "It is finished." There is nothing anyone can do to add to this life, nor can they take away from the truth.

Knock, knock!

Is He not the ONE who now works and lives within, your neighbor next door?

What is this work of Christ?

peacemaker


DaughterofDavid

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Re: Works
« Reply #442 on: March 09, 2009, 02:25:51 AM »
I understand that, but on the other hand, I think we need to be very careful in how we present that...not bringing a yoke of bondage to those that have been freed by the blood of Jesus.  I hear your heart here, but IMO, if we're not very careful, we can encourage people to get their focus on works and off of Jesus.  That's why for me personally, I believe in stressing obedience, submitting to Him and His will, but that it's only through His grace and the power of the Holy Spirit that we get our next breath, much less presume to please Him.  Don't be discouraged, encourage...I think we can go too far either way, making things sound like condoning either disobedience or focus on our own abilities...it's my POV that falling in either direction is unfruitful.  Believe me, I've had concerns the other way...I don't see scripture advocating sinning more, not paying attention to it, grace will take care of it...IMO, that's mis-using grace, "should I sin more that grace would more abound"...but again, as I understand it, all my strength and ability is from and throught our Master... :thumbsup:

Anyway, thanks for disucssing this with me, I think that's a good thing.

God's blessing, James.

I think we need to put everyone's thoughts on works.  Those works of the Christ.  I think we need to Provoke them to do Good works:

Heb 10:24  and may we consider one another to provoke to love and to good works,

His works are those of Love.  We just need for everyone to ensure they are distinguish between which works they are to perform and which ones they are not to perform.  Those of Christ we are to perform.  Those of our flesh, we are not to perform.

Paul

Hi Paul!

Oh! My precious brother, I want to thank you for all that you have shared on this topic....I have been RICHLY blessed!

This that you wrote says it so beautifully and POWERFULLY and clearly.....

"I think we need to put everyone's thoughts on works.  Those works of the Christ.  I think we need to Provoke them to do Good works:

Heb 10:24  and may we consider one another to provoke to love and to good works,

His works are those of Love.  We just need for everyone to ensure they are distinguish between which works they are to perform and which ones they are not to perform.  Those of Christ we are to perform.  Those of our flesh, we are not to perform." (trettep/Paul).

Thank you for spurring me on to know Him....for encouraging me to ask Him to perform His good works within me....thank you.

Be blessed my brother,
DaughterofDavid



Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #443 on: March 09, 2009, 03:12:20 AM »
I understand that, but on the other hand, I think we need to be very careful in how we present that...not bringing a yoke of bondage to those that have been freed by the blood of Jesus.  I hear your heart here, but IMO, if we're not very careful, we can encourage people to get their focus on works and off of Jesus.  That's why for me personally, I believe in stressing obedience, submitting to Him and His will, but that it's only through His grace and the power of the Holy Spirit that we get our next breath, much less presume to please Him.  Don't be discouraged, encourage...I think we can go too far either way, making things sound like condoning either disobedience or focus on our own abilities...it's my POV that falling in either direction is unfruitful.  Believe me, I've had concerns the other way...I don't see scripture advocating sinning more, not paying attention to it, grace will take care of it...IMO, that's mis-using grace, "should I sin more that grace would more abound"...but again, as I understand it, all my strength and ability is from and throught our Master... :thumbsup:

Anyway, thanks for disucssing this with me, I think that's a good thing.

God's blessing, James.

I think we need to put everyone's thoughts on works.  Those works of the Christ.  I think we need to Provoke them to do Good works:

Heb 10:24  and may we consider one another to provoke to love and to good works,

His works are those of Love.  We just need for everyone to ensure they are distinguish between which works they are to perform and which ones they are not to perform.  Those of Christ we are to perform.  Those of our flesh, we are not to perform.

Paul

Paul, are you able, within yourself, your own strength, to do the works of Christ, those works of love?  You said earlier, if I understood you, that we must do a work to get saved, then work to stay saved.  I agree we do works, but I believe we are absolutely unable to do anything without His empowerment.  So IMO, there's sort of a paradox.  We work, we do His will as we submit to Him and walk each day to please Him...but in essence, it's not really us that's doing it...it's Him through us...IMO, we can take absolutely no credit for our obedience, love, or faith..it all proceeds from Him. 

I do not deny we do works, but I do claim that when it's all said and done, we can take no credit, because our righteousness is as filthy rags, and it's in Him we live, move, have our being.

Can you take any credit for, and did/do you work for 1) having the faith to get saved, and 2) being able to do the right things to stay saved, because when I cut to the bottom of what I've understood you to say in the past few days, that's what I hear?  Maybe that's not what you mean, but I keep getting this overall sense that that's what you think.  Please let me know if I'm wrong about that.  Wouldn't be the first time.   :laughing7:  James.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 03:20:20 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #444 on: March 09, 2009, 03:28:07 AM »
Hi, Jab--

I think we can do what we can do--if that makes sense.  We can ask, seek, knock.  We can search relentlessly for him.  We can pay attention.  We can work hard. We can run the good race.  We can be active and proactive instead of passive.  We can seize what is being offered.  Or we can go to church once a week and nod off.



Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #445 on: March 09, 2009, 03:34:07 AM »
Hi Dear Molly.  Again, not saying at all that we don't work...heck, I probably struggle more than many to "be a good Christian"...I'm still learning this grace thing, I shouldn't sound like I have it all down, I don't.  (Remember I'm a Pentecostal preacher's kid, then joined lots with the Southern Baptists!  I just think even when I raise my hand to knock, I'm using His strength, not mine.


Please tell me what you think about this verse;  So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.  Romans 9:16.

God's blessing, James.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 03:35:43 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #446 on: March 09, 2009, 03:41:46 AM »
Yes, he is so Wonderful!  He is just waiting for us to ask.  I often forget myself to ask.  And, sometimes, I feel the response is--it's about time!  What were you waiting for?   His mercy is abundant.  He's so generous...




11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

 12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

 13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


--Luke 11



6And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

 7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, ..

--Ex 34

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #447 on: March 09, 2009, 03:44:58 AM »
Thank you Lord.

Where would I be without your mercy
I'm afraid there'd be no hope for me
Where would I be without your love that came and gave itself away
Only requiring I believe

Where would I be Lord
where would I be
Where would i be Lord
Without your mercy, where would I be

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #448 on: March 09, 2009, 03:55:42 AM »
1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #449 on: March 09, 2009, 04:11:39 AM »
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

 2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

 5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


 6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

 7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

 8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

--1 Peter 1



[you] "who are kept" [by the power of God through faith unto salvation]

G5432
φρουρέω
phroureō
froo-reh'-o
From a compound of G4253 and G3708; to be a watcher in advance, that is, to mount guard as a sentinel (post spies at gates); figuratively to hem in, protect: - keep (with a garrison). Compare G5083.


[unto salvation ready] "to be revealed" [in the last time.]

G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
ap-ok-al-oop'-to
From G575 and G2572; to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 04:22:35 AM by Molly »