Works

[jabcat]

Bob, I'm guessing you will probably never be on the cross, or be able to pay the true price for your sins...IMO, there's a lot more to these scriptures you're quoting, much bigger discussion and context...in part, having to do with which comes first, righteousness or works, for instance...which I believe is the former, as I've earlier stated in this thread.  Substitutionary atonement (which I believe in) is another huge topic.  The cross of Jesus, the Age of Grace! 

[trettep]

well, I have an IMO too.

IMHO YHO is a good one.

• Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

• Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

• Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.

• Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. 17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

That supports what I stated Bob that Jesus was the sacrifice for Israel and that His prayer about being forsaken was applicable to those to whom He was the sacrifice for = Israelites.

Paul

[trettep]

If Jesus took ownership of our sins then forgiveness is for what?

Paul

[bobf]

Bob, I'm guessing you will probably never be on the cross, or be able to pay the true price for your sins...IMO, there's a lot more to these scriptures you're quoting, much bigger discussion and context...in part, having to do with which comes first, righteousness or works, for instance...which I believe is the former, as I've earlier stated in this thread.  Substitutionary atonement (which I believe in) is another huge topic.  The cross of Jesus, the Age of Grace!

But it's not really a matter of whether I've ever paid the true or full price for my sins.  If Christ paid the full price of my sins (which I believe) as a substitute (which I do not believe) then believers wouldn't be found suffering the consequences of their sins, but they are.

[bobf]

That supports what I stated Bob that Jesus was the sacrifice for Israel and that His prayer about being forsaken was applicable to those to whom He was the sacrifice for = Israelites.

Paul

The way I read it, God laid the penalty of our sins on Jesus Christ which would include all the curse of the law, including dying for our sins and being forsaken for our sins.

[claypot]

That supports what I stated Bob that Jesus was the sacrifice for Israel and that His prayer about being forsaken was applicable to those to whom He was the sacrifice for = Israelites.

Paul

The way I read it, God laid the penalty of our sins on Jesus Christ which would include all the curse of the law, including dying for our sins and being forsaken for our sins.

Being this thread is already so long that it just doesn't matter anymore may I please jump in with a few questions?

God laid the penalty of our sins on Jesus Christ.

Let me get back to the basics and ask what this means. What sins did and do people do that are so terrible as to need to have them penalized in the first place. I know and have known a lot of people in my time and most of them are great people.

I sure can't imagine anything they have done that even remotely comes close to requiring Jesus to die so horribly on the cross.

Now as to.....

The way I read it, God laid the penalty of our sins on Jesus Christ which would include all the curse of the law, including dying for our sins and being forsaken for our sins.

People are under the curse of the law. What in the world does this mean? Sounds horrible. What ever did little newborn Jonny do to merit such condemnation?

cp

[jabcat]

Good questions cp

First of all, I've got a lot to learn myself, God may correct me today and show me something else tomorrow...I can judge no one.  That said,

To Bob and Paul's posts...My thoughts are, my understanding is; precept upon precept...If we reject foundational precepts, then it becomes harder to find the foundation upon which the rest are to reside...and circular questions ensue.

Yet all is of God who conciliates us to Himself through Christ and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, how that God was in Christ conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the Word of the Conciliation….He makes to us a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him.  II Cor. 5:18,19

But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.  Romans 5:15

Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not work but trusts him who justified the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin.

IMO, many foundational precepts have already been presented in earlier posts in this thread.  As we pray for discernment, God veils and reveals.

God's blessing, James.


 

[bobf]

Let me get back to the basics and ask what this means. What sins did and do people do that are so terrible as to need to have them penalized in the first place. I know and have known a lot of people in my time and most of them are great people.
I sure can't imagine anything they have done that even remotely comes close to requiring Jesus to die so horribly on the cross.

How about being selfish, merciless, unforgiving, or holier than thou.

People are under the curse of the law. What in the world does this mean? Sounds horrible. What ever did little newborn Jonny do to merit such condemnation?

I'm not talking about the law putting newborns under a curse.  I'm talking about people reaping what they themselves have actually sown.

[trettep]

That supports what I stated Bob that Jesus was the sacrifice for Israel and that His prayer about being forsaken was applicable to those to whom He was the sacrifice for = Israelites.

Paul

The way I read it, God laid the penalty of our sins on Jesus Christ which would include all the curse of the law, including dying for our sins and being forsaken for our sins.

I believe He incurred the penalty for our sins but not the sin, therefore, I disagree that He was forsaken because of sins.  In other words, I don't believe He ever was imputed our sins.  Had He been imputed sins then He would have need of a sacrifice.

Paul

Paul

[bobf]

Yet all is of God who conciliates us to Himself through Christ and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, how that God was in Christ conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the Word of the Conciliation….He makes to us a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him.  II Cor. 5:18,19

When God was in Christ reconciling the wolrd unto Himself?

[trettep]

That supports what I stated Bob that Jesus was the sacrifice for Israel and that His prayer about being forsaken was applicable to those to whom He was the sacrifice for = Israelites.

Paul

The way I read it, God laid the penalty of our sins on Jesus Christ which would include all the curse of the law, including dying for our sins and being forsaken for our sins.

Being this thread is already so long that it just doesn't matter anymore may I please jump in with a few questions?

God laid the penalty of our sins on Jesus Christ.

Let me get back to the basics and ask what this means. What sins did and do people do that are so terrible as to need to have them penalized in the first place. I know and have known a lot of people in my time and most of them are great people.

I sure can't imagine anything they have done that even remotely comes close to requiring Jesus to die so horribly on the cross.

Now as to.....

The way I read it, God laid the penalty of our sins on Jesus Christ which would include all the curse of the law, including dying for our sins and being forsaken for our sins.

People are under the curse of the law. What in the world does this mean? Sounds horrible. What ever did little newborn Jonny do to merit such condemnation?

cp

Claypot, newborn Jonny was born as a child of Adam and a member of the body of Adam, thus newborn Jonny has acquired the death sentence as a result.  Jonny, had no other need to commit a sin for he already has it.  Just like all those born into the body of Christ have Life, so all those born from the body of Adam shall have death.  God passed a Judgement - the Great Judge has spoken and He has sentenced us all to death.  All of us born of the body of Adam that is (of Adam's seed).  Jesus was not born of the seed of Adam but of the seed of God, His Father in Heaven and thus not under that Judgment.

Paul

[bobf]

I believe He incurred the penalty for our sins but not the sin, therefore, I disagree that He was forsaken because of sins.  In other words, I don't believe He ever was imputed our sins.  Had He been imputed sins then He would have need of a sacrifice.

Paul

I also don't believe He was imputed our sins (considered by God to be a sinner).  But if Christ paid the full penalty for our sins then one of those penalties was to be forsaken by God.

[trettep]

I believe He incurred the penalty for our sins but not the sin, therefore, I disagree that He was forsaken because of sins.  In other words, I don't believe He ever was imputed our sins.  Had He been imputed sins then He would have need of a sacrifice.

Paul

I also don't believe He was imputed our sins (considered by God to be a sinner).  But if Christ paid the full penalty for our sins then one of those penalties was to be forsaken by God.

Please clarify then bob.  Are you of the belief that when Jesus asked God why have you forsaken me that He was referring to Himself.  Asking God why have you forsaken me (Jesus)?

Paul

[bobf]

Please clarify then bob.  Are you of the belief that when Jesus asked God why have you forsaken me that He was referring to Himself.  Asking God why have you forsaken me (Jesus)?

Possibly, but not necessarily.  He could simply have been quoting the Psalm.  I guess I'm not sure, but I don't see anything unscriptural about that possibility.

[Molly]

I believe He incurred the penalty for our sins but not the sin, therefore, I disagree that He was forsaken because of sins.  In other words, I don't believe He ever was imputed our sins.  Had He been imputed sins then He would have need of a sacrifice.

Paul

I also don't believe He was imputed our sins (considered by God to be a sinner).  But if Christ paid the full penalty for our sins then one of those penalties was to be forsaken by God.

Please clarify then bob.  Are you of the belief that when Jesus asked God why have you forsaken me that He was referring to Himself.  Asking God why have you forsaken me (Jesus)?

Paul

I do.  Why have you forsaken me--he's  asking God, Where are you?

I see it as the mirror image of the garden when God asked Adam, Where are you?

[Molly]

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

[sheila]

   Amen! Molly!!!

   He came to break up the works of satan[which 'works'

brought about that very first scenario in the garden!]

    talk about 'reverse the curse'! or was that the LAW fufilled

   an eye for an eye,tooth for tooth?

                Wow!!

[Zeek]

Claypot, newborn Jonny was born as a child of Adam and a member of the body of Adam, thus newborn Jonny has acquired the death sentence as a result.

Paul

so was Christ not really the last adam then?

[sheila]

   Amen! Zeek

[Zeek]

   Amen! Zeek

time to wake up to WHO we really ARE

[trettep]

Please clarify then bob.  Are you of the belief that when Jesus asked God why have you forsaken me that He was referring to Himself.  Asking God why have you forsaken me (Jesus)?

Possibly, but not necessarily.  He could simply have been quoting the Psalm.  I guess I'm not sure, but I don't see anything unscriptural about that possibility.

No, I think your correct that He is quoting the psalm.  But my point is that their is still substance to merit here even for the psalm other than just quoting it to show that He is the Christ.

Psalm 22:1 (Apostolic Bible - Septuagint)
O God, my God, take heed to me! Why did you abandon me? The words of my transgressions are far from my deliverance.

I think that can only be pertaining to the Israelites.

Paul

[trettep]

I believe He incurred the penalty for our sins but not the sin, therefore, I disagree that He was forsaken because of sins.  In other words, I don't believe He ever was imputed our sins.  Had He been imputed sins then He would have need of a sacrifice.

Paul

I also don't believe He was imputed our sins (considered by God to be a sinner).  But if Christ paid the full penalty for our sins then one of those penalties was to be forsaken by God.

Please clarify then bob.  Are you of the belief that when Jesus asked God why have you forsaken me that He was referring to Himself.  Asking God why have you forsaken me (Jesus)?

Paul

I do.  Why have you forsaken me--he's  asking God, Where are you?

I see it as the mirror image of the garden when God asked Adam, Where are you?

But Molly, why would He?  Jesus even told His disciples that He would be handed over and be crucified.  He knew death awaited Him.  So why would He be wanting to be delivered?

Paul

[trettep]

  Amen! Molly!!!

   He came to break up the works of satan[which 'works'

brought about that very first scenario in the garden!]

    talk about 'reverse the curse'! or was that the LAW fufilled

   an eye for an eye,tooth for tooth?

                Wow!!

You mean the works that were CONTRARY.  Recall that the other things that Adam was told to do, he did.  Those were works also.  But only when Adam did contrary to command was it sin.  So how can doing works today be sin if those works are not contrary?

Paul

[trettep]

Claypot, newborn Jonny was born as a child of Adam and a member of the body of Adam, thus newborn Jonny has acquired the death sentence as a result.

Paul

so was Christ not really the last adam then?

Christ is the last Adam but not OF the first (by seed).

Paul

[peacemaker]

A sinful heart is the father of lies; the seed of corruption. When we speak a lie, or commit a murder, it is not from some evil spirit being that has entered us - "For nothing that has entered, can defile a man." But that which comes out of their mouth – "Crucify Him."

It appears that Christ, publicly, bore their sins. Completely exposing and enduring the natural disposition of their hearts.

As a Penalty, or Substitution for our (sin) wickedness?
Yet, are not the wages of sin death; physically and spiritually?

"To bear one in love, is not to carry the decorum of their malice aforethought."

Especially, in cases of first-degree murder, but that's just my opinion.

I look more to His Life, rather than his death.

peacemaker