Author Topic: Will  (Read 25737 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Will
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2012, 05:50:10 AM »
Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
(Eph 3:14-21)

Amen

I would like to thank you guys for something else.  I have been struggling with an issue for a while, and because of this forum I finally have the words to form the proper question.  Once I asked the question of myself, it became somewhat rhetorical.  Words are very important to me, and now I have those words and now I have an answer to a question because I finally found the right question to ask.  I have some peace about that issue now.

Again, thanks guys.

Glad you've been benefitting from things, it's a blessing to help a little bit.

 :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Will
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2012, 06:13:02 AM »
Perspective means so much.

Left to chose? So sad indeed. When would God leave us to choose? He is a Father. He guides us, He woos us, He disciplines us for our own good- and he oversees our choices, leaving with every temptation a way of escape. What parent would leave their child to choose. Perhaps step back a bit with a watchful eye.... Perhaps for a particularly rebellious child to stay a little closer and to brandish the rod on occasion.

And what are we choosing. Love, grace, Him, one another :o)

God never leaves us- "For in Him we live and move and have our being"........altho he may hide his face from us for a moment in order to catch our attention, He will never forsake us.

If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have koinonea together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

God is teaching us to walk with Him and we are growing to love Him more and more....and learning to choose love among ourselves over knowledge, power, the praises of men, etc.

"That you may be one even as I and the Father are one, the Father in me and I in the Father and you in me"

IMO, it is ALL.....God's sovereign will and our formative will as children of men wherever the dividing lines are......about union and communion- that God may be ALL IN ALL.

It  is in such a covenant of love that we become fit ministers of reconciliation, finally knowing what spirit we are of.
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Offline rjohnson741

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Re: Will
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2012, 07:47:55 AM »
You got me digging VB  :thumbsup:, and God provided.  ("it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter" Pr. 25;2)  This is information I really like, even if not necessarily agreeing on every jot and tittle or exact wording.  I believe it's still very useful information.  It's from Christian Bible Students, apparently a non-denominational group.  I included part of their statement of faith for a reference point.
 
We accept Christ as our personal Savior, and believe that he died not only for the Christian, but for all the world.
We accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God
, and study it in its entirety--both the Old and the New Testaments, seeking the harmony of complete Scriptural testimony (2 Timothy 3:16, 17).
------------------------
Certainly, God could have prevented Satan's temptation, but God allowed it for an enduring practical lesson for men and angels. God wanted man to experience and see the natural consequences of sin for a wise purpose. Jehovah is "not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness" (Psalm 5:4). God is permitting evil for a time, but what He has planned for man will more than compensate for all the pain and suffering this object lesson has caused.

Every right principle has an opposite wrong principle: truth and falsity, love and hatred, etc. A principle that is right ultimately produces harmony, happiness and good. A principle that is wrong produces harm, unhappiness and evil. Humans were created with an ability to choose between right and wrong—a conscience. However, man's moral sense has been affected by the fall; some more and some less.
A dog has some intelligence and can make choices based on training gained by certain rewards or punishments from his master. A dog, however, is ignorant of the moral quality of its actions. When a dog rescues or harms somebody, the action cannot be considered either virtuous or sinning; it is merely the result of instinct, not ethics. On the contrary, people do have more or less of a moral sense. When they do good, it is virtuous. When they do evil, it is sinful.

God Did Not Make Man a Robot
God could have made man a robot to always do what is right, but then he would not have been in God's "image" (Genesis 1:26, 27). God could have shielded man from Satan's temptation, but then man would still have been subject to ambitions from within. As a result, his future would always have been uncertain.

In God's wisdom, he foreknew that what is good can best be appreciated by its contrast. When God expelled disobedient Adam and Eve from His fellowship in the Garden of Eden, they began to learn the exceedingly sinfulness of sin. They began to "know good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)—and to appreciate the difference. During all the centuries thereafter, their posterity has been learning the lesson of evil. Later, during God's Kingdom, mankind will fully experience the contrasting benefits of good.

The moral sense of Adam was an important feature of his likeness to God, but after 6,000 years of degradation, man's natural moral sense has been largely reduced. Now sin is often more agreeable to people than good.
If the opportunity to sin were not permitted, man could not have resisted it, and there would be neither virtue nor merit in his right-doing. But God wishes intelligent and willing obedience, not mechanical service. God already had many animate and inanimate creations to His glory. In creating man, His design was to make an intelligent creature in his own likeness; a master for earth, whose conduct would be based on the value of right over wrong, good over evil.

The principles of right and wrong have always existed, but only the principle of right will continue to be active forever. The activity of wrong will continue only long enough to accomplish God's purpose. Then evil will forever cease (1 Corinthians 15:25, 26).

Learning by Experience
Could the knowledge of sin have come in some other way? Could the dreadful evils the human race has experienced been avoided? Not in so effective and lasting a way.
There are four ways of knowing something:

 Intuition
 Observation
 Experience
 Information

Only God has intuitive knowledge. He knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). Therefore, man's knowledge of good and evil could not be intuitive. Adam had a knowledge of evil by information, but that proved insufficient to keep him from trying the experiment. Man might have learned by observation, but in order to observe the results of sin, there had to be a demonstration of it somewhere in the universe. Why shouldn't man be the illustration? The Scriptures tell us that man's experience with sin and evil is, in fact, being observed by the angels (1 Corinthians 4:9). However, the deepest learning is gained by practical experience, and that is primarily how mankind is learning—by personal experience with evil.

Adam did experience good in the garden, but his knowledge of evil was only from information: "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17). He had no experience of sin with which to predict the pain and suffering that would come. Consequently, he yielded to temptation when it arose.

Adam's offense may seem small compared to the penalty, but at stake was the fundamental principle of obedience. Obedience is essential to the everlasting blessing of God's creation. God above knows what is best for His creation's welfare and everlasting happiness.

Adam was induced into sin through his wife, whose communication with God was more limited than Adam's. Eve transgressed what she knew was right. But she was deceived by the serpent as to the consequences (2 Corinthians 11:3). Adam, however, was not deceived (1 Timothy 2:14). Adam willfully shared in Eve's disobedience, evidently choosing not to live without her.  Thus both Adam and Eve were "in the transgression," and both were cursed. Eve shared in the sentence which she helped bring upon Adam. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).

Created with.. Choice
God created man with.. choice, even though He foresaw that man's moral nature would stray. God is permitting man's present experience with evil to teach him the exceeding sinfulness of sin. The result will develop in mankind more love and appreciation for the Creator and demonstrate the brilliance of virtue in contrast.

The Just Penalty for Sin
God has the power to force man to worship Him, but this is not His desire. God seeks the worship of man from a free heart, willingly, "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24), and this is in the best interests of His creatures. During the Millennium, the world will worship God of their own choice, appreciating God for His goodness.

In the meantime, God allows man to learn by practical experience. He allows man to taste sin and its consequences. He has also planned for man's recovery by providing a Savior at great cost. In due time, the "ransom for all" will be appreciated by the world as a remarkable gift from God (1 Timothy 2:3- 6). Thus man's.. will was foreknown and overruled for their good.
Some might agree that imposing the penalty upon Adam was just, but think it unjust that all of his descendants suffer the results. The question is would we have done better if tried individually? Would not at least the majority have been tempted to disobey eventually?
By allowing Adam to pass his condemned life on to us all, God allows experience with death and dying to educate us all. Then, because we were all condemned in one man, we could all be redeemed by one Man—Jesus.

Death is a reasonable consequence for sin. Those who, after having a full experience and knowledge of sin and its suffering, do not choose to follow the wise counsels of God would be a source of unhappiness to themselves and others. There is no reason to continue their existence for the ages of eternity. The present dying process that mankind experiences is a somber lesson to impress the gravity of disobedience.

Meanwhile, life even as we have it now is a favor and is so esteemed by the vast majority. From cradle to grave, life has blessings sufficient so that nearly everyone wants to keep living. It is a small foretaste of the everlasting, wonderful and glorious life God plans for all who will accept His reasonable terms for life.

Penalty of Death—Not Torture
Sadly, many have misrepresented God's character and plan by saying that God plans to punish unbelievers with eternal torture. This is very wrong! God's penalty for sin is clearly stated: "You shall surely die" (Genesis 2:17 NAS). "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). "The soul [person, being] that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4). Only a few texts in the symbolic book of Revelation, or in the parables, suggest a torment of fire. In each of these cases it can be demonstrated that fire represents destruction. The penalty for sin is death—not life in torture.*

* The "lake of fire" in Revelation is a symbol of destruction, "second death" (Revelation 20:14). The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) is acknowledged by thoughtful commentaries to be a parable. The Rich Man represents Judah and Benjamin and his "five brethren" represent the other 10 tribes, who "have Moses and the prophets." The fiery tribulation represents the fiery trials Israel experienced after rejecting their Messiah (compare Deuteronomy 32:22-26). Lazarus, received into the bosom of Abraham, represents the outcasts of Israel and the Gentiles who embraced the spiritual features of the Abrahamic Covenant by accepting Jesus, the "seed of Abraham."

Condemnation to death passed upon the whole human race by one man's disobedience. One man sinned with an unborn race in him. Thus he and all his posterity were condemned. That condemnation could only be removed by the death of one perfect man who would take the condemnation we deserve upon himself. That one unblemished man, a perfect race unborn within him, was "the man Christ Jesus" who died a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:5) to satisfy the demands of justice against Adam and his race.

The Great Plan of Restoration
Because of God's permission of evil, His great Plan of redemption will be gloriously successful! All the misery, pain and tragedy caused by evil will be more than offset by the wonderful blessings of the Kingdom.

Mankind will benefit eternally from the experience with evil. This experience will also be a monumental demonstration to the angelic hosts of God's glorious character. All will see God's Justice in condemning disobedience. All will see God's immeasurable Love in sending His own Son to satisfy justice in order to redeem us. All will see God's Power in the perfect uniting in Christ of all His intelligent creation "both which are in heaven, and which are on earth" (Ephesians 1:10). All will see God's far-seeing Wisdom in using even unwilling agents to accomplish the glorious destiny planned for His creation.

God's law of the universe for all intelligent beings is summed up in one word: LOVE. Because "God is love" (1 John 4:8), He has chosen the very best Plan for us all.

Ultimately, when God's purpose in the temporary permission of evil is complete, everyone will appreciate what He has done. Until then, with the eye of faith we look forward to the time when all mankind will be restored, as planned since the world began (Acts 3:19-21).
Hi Jabcat. Those are some excellent and thought provoking comments. Here is something else to consider: The fall of man was preordained by God. It was God's purpose that Adam eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This is why God had already prepared for his restoration. Remember the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world(1Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8). By eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam took the first step toward being conformed(made) into the complete image or likeness of God(Romans 8:29). Eve ate the fruit because of her natural desire for food and the lust in her heart(Genesis 3:6): Adam ate the fruit because of his natural desire and love he had for Eve, his wife. Adam knows that Eve will soon die, and he does not want to be separated from her. So Adam and Eve disobey God, and the punishment is death(return to dust). God destroys or turns Adam(man) to dust---"Thou dost turn man back into dust, And dost say, Return, O children of men" Psalm 90:3 NASB. God destroys or turns Adam back to dust so He can conform Adam(man) into His image. God did not force Adam to disobey Him, but it was God's purpose for Adam(man) to do so. Adam and Eve were simply being true to their God given nature. Adam and Eve were satisfying the desires of the flesh(nature). We would fare no better under similar circumstances. Even we as Christians still sin sometimes because of our carnal nature.. Now let's see what the tree of the {knowledge of good and evil} represents: Conscience---Internal {Knowledge} or judgment of {right and wrong}; the moral sense; morality(New Webster's Dictionary 2005 Expanded Edition). Knowledge---The fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association(Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary). Adam when he ate of the tree, became a moral agent. Adam now has a conscience. Adam now posseses valuable knowledge that God has. God is a moral being with a divine nature. Adam(man) is now a moral being but with a carnal(flesh) nature. Now that Adam(man) has this knowledge, Adam(man) can now be held accountable for his actions. Adam(man) can be held accountable for his actions, because he now knows right(good) from wrong(evil), but God takes full responsiblity for the fall, because the fall of Adam(man) was preordained by God. God will pay for all the damages that Adam's sin caused. What are those damages?---pain, guilt, suffering, sickness, disease, sorrow, death, etc. Of course God pays for these damages through the death, burial, and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ. God wants man to know both good and evil. That's why the knowledge of good and evil was in the same tree. God want's man to experience evil and all the pain and suffering that comes with evil, so that man can appreciate the goodness of God. This is why it is always {darkest} before the {light},{weeping} endures for a night, {joy} comes in the morning, we experience {death} in Adam, and in Christ, we are {made alive}. This is called the laws of contrast. God will destroy man's carnal nature, his self will, his pride. God will then give man His divine nature. Then man will be able to see and appreciate the goodness of God. Blessings to you.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 12:06:44 AM by rjohnson741 »
"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

Offline jabcat

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Re: Will
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2012, 09:04:32 AM »
Thanks rj.  Good comments.  You're getting into some even deeper water here.  :) 

Jesus wasn't plan B.  As you note, He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (cosmos).  God's not surprised, is he?

Thanks for digging deeper into the Adam/evil discussion.  Again, good comments - and it begins, and ends, with God's love and mercy.  Blessings to you too.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 09:20:16 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline VineBranch

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Re: Will
« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2012, 10:05:21 PM »
God destroys or turns Adam back to dust so He can remake Adam(man) into His image.

So, re-made Adam doesn't have as soul?  When he  'remakes' Adam, does he 're-breathe' the same soul (making him Adam) or a new soul (making him someone else) into him?
If Adam is destroyed how can he be 're-made':  he is gone (macaw:  rubbed out).


God did not force Adam to disobey Him, but it was God's purpose for Adam(man) to do so. Adam and Eve were simply being true to their God given nature.

Okay, please, please, please, explain this one!!!
I sense this is the make or break point.

Offline sheila

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Re: Will
« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2012, 10:16:25 PM »
INTERESTING ASIDE.  God wants all the fruit...the fruit of the Holy spirit of Love[God] has mercy longsuffering

  and compassion as well of righteousness...the evil contrast 'tool' was designed to provide the resistence

  for the developement of these fruits also. no suffering without evil..no mercy without tresspasses

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Will
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2012, 10:19:27 PM »
I'm with vinebranch on this one. Quote from Rjohnson
God destroys or turns Adam back to dust so He can remake Adam(man) into His image.
I don't think resurection works that way.
Quote from RJohnson
God did not force Adam to disobey Him, but it was God's purpose for Adam(man) to do so. Adam and Eve were simply being true to their God given nature.
IMO,Sin isn't God's nature or being true to it.
God knew Adam would sin but that doesn't mean it was his purpose.
God knew Jesus would be mocked and whipped, spat on and mocked, but the purpose was the cross and death, not the other stuff.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline jabcat

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Re: Will
« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2012, 10:23:34 PM »
[Okay, please, please, please, explain this one!!!
I sense this is the make or break point.

I don't see it as make or break.  I see it as deeper water.  There are varying opinions on it, whether one believes in "free will" or not.  Same with the satan discussion I alluded to earlier..and Judas...and.... :bigGrin:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline rjohnson741

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Re: Will
« Reply #83 on: December 02, 2012, 12:02:15 AM »
I'm with vinebranch on this one. Quote from Rjohnson
God destroys or turns Adam back to dust so He can remake Adam(man) into His image.
I don't think resurection works that way.
Quote from RJohnson
God did not force Adam to disobey Him, but it was God's purpose for Adam(man) to do so. Adam and Eve were simply being true to their God given nature.
IMO,Sin isn't God's nature or being true to it.
God knew Adam would sin but that doesn't mean it was his purpose.
God knew Jesus would be mocked and whipped, spat on and mocked, but the purpose was the cross and death, not the other stuff.Hi ded2daworld. Being turned to dust and being remade into the image of God IS THE RESURRECTION. Being remade into the image of God was a poor choice of words on my part. My point was this---"And we have borne the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly" 1Corinthians 15:49 KJV. Paul was making a reference to this verse---"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth" Genesis 5:3 KJV. All of us inherited death from Adam. In this sense, we are in the earthly likeness and image of Adam. This is why God will turn us back to dust(death) and conform us into the heavenly image of His Son Jesus Christ(Romans 8:29). Conformed is the word I should have used instead of remake. This is your comment "God knew Adam would sin but that doesn't mean it was his purpose".  Are you saying it was not  God's purpose for Adam to eat the fruit? You are in effect saying it was not God's purpose for Judas to betray Jesus. Are you saying Adam and Judas could have chosen differently?  If that's the case, then God's decrees and prophecies are made void by the will and choices of man. I'm saying God used Adam's disobedience as a learning tool for Adam. I'll see if I can simplify this a bit---A parent places a big bowl of candy, cookies and other sweets in the middle(midst) of the kitchen table in plain view of everyone. The parent tells the child if he or she eats anything from that bowl of sweets, they will be punished with a spanking. Most children naturally like sweets, so eventually that child will eat some of those sweets. Now the parent will rightly punish that child for disobedience, even though that child naturally liked sweets. Blessings to you.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 02:07:54 AM by rjohnson741 »
"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

Offline sheila

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Re: Will
« Reply #84 on: December 02, 2012, 12:49:41 AM »
Paul has come to my mind..and his word on 'I was once alive 'apart" from sin...then the commandment came..

  and sin seduced me..and I died.  thinking along the lines of being alive once' as maybe possessing

  freedom at that time  to choose..but being 'seduced" by the sin in our flesh..becoming captive to the

 will of sin..then no longer being free to exercize our 'will'.[Grace came to Paul d/t him being blind/ignorant]

  yes..the commandment came 'this is my son..listen to Him"

  the 'choose' this day who you will serve....element.

 .once you choose..you are no longer free..for whatever you serve..is your master.

   Lord save me from 'willful' sin!!  the good I desire to do..I do not..that which I desire not to do,I do....

  shows that when we 'will' to serve God and do good..sin's law[captivity] continues with a will of it's own..

  the scriptures speak of those taken captive of the will of the devil.   are 'captives" free?

  the whole world 'is blinded" [deceived"] of the evil one.......

  can you make a free will choice....of your own will..if you make it in a decieved state.  Is that legal? lol!!!

  is there an 'age" of accountability? where you make an informed 'choice" of your own free will? am thinking

 of the law covenant..with all it's rules and regulations spelled out.....subsequent curses and blessings...

     THE SPIRIT IS WILLING......BUT THE FLESH IS WEAK!!!!

       are we 'willing to believe the lie..if there is no love of truth in us? Is that how we become deceived?

   do we 'compromise' in the temporal..to stay off inevitable suffering of death? why do we believe a lie?

  thinking of little children...gullible man..should 'innocence' be naive?  He tells His children..

  be cautious as serpents! yet innocent as doves..he commends the dishonest manager because he

 had asked shrewdly[keen-witted]  what? sharp insite and clever=the spirit of the lord is sharper than

 any two edged sword..able to divide/discern[keen]

    the creature was subjected to 'vanity' not of it's own will..but by the will of He who subjected it........

  has Adam been saved from willful sin by the higher will of the Father..for the express purpose of this

  good/evil exercize as part of our eternal education?  Is that why the woman was decieved..and the

  Adam..though not decieved..also 'ate"? :dontknow:

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Will
« Reply #85 on: December 02, 2012, 12:55:51 AM »
Hi RJ-
I agree with you about us being(the new man) being resurrected. My point was, this mortal shall put on immortality which isn't Adam. One of the old testament prophets, Ezekiel, I believe was even called "son of dust"

And I still disagree that it was God's purpose for Adam to sin. Using a human example doesn't work cuz I'm talking about
total omniscience of knowing everything from beginning to end. The only way I can put it in human terms:
If my wife has a child, no matter how much I love it, care for it, nurture it, I know that if it lives long enough, (less than 5 years) It will sin. I didn't make it sin and my wife and I did not create it so that it WOULD sin. We just know that it will sin the same as we know that unless Jesus returns the newborn will eventually die. Again, we are not making it die and it is not our purpose in creating it so that it would die.

Being omniscient, knowing the first from the last, Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. "God sees what is to be and declares it as if it is. :Peace2:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline rjohnson741

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Re: Will
« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2012, 01:23:08 AM »
Hi RJ-
I agree with you about us being(the new man) being resurrected. My point was, this mortal shall put on immortality which isn't Adam. One of the old testament prophets, Ezekiel, I believe was even called "son of dust"

And I still disagree that it was God's purpose for Adam to sin. Using a human example doesn't work cuz I'm talking about
total omniscience of knowing everything from beginning to end. The only way I can put it in human terms:
If my wife has a child, no matter how much I love it, care for it, nurture it, I know that if it lives long enough, (less than 5 years) It will sin. I didn't make it sin and my wife and I did not create it so that it WOULD sin. We just know that it will sin the same as we know that unless Jesus returns the newborn will eventually die. Again, we are not making it die and it is not our purpose in creating it so that it would die.

Being omniscient, knowing the first from the last, Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. "God sees what is to be and declares it as if it is. :Peace2:
Are you saying it was not God's purpose for Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

Offline rjohnson741

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Re: Will
« Reply #87 on: December 02, 2012, 01:40:18 AM »
God destroys or turns Adam back to dust so He can remake Adam(man) into His image.

So, re-made Adam doesn't have as soul?  When he  'remakes' Adam, does he 're-breathe' the same soul (making him Adam) or a new soul (making him someone else) into him?
If Adam is destroyed how can he be 're-made':  he is gone (macaw:  rubbed out).


God did not force Adam to disobey Him, but it was God's purpose for Adam(man) to do so. Adam and Eve were simply being true to their God given nature.

Okay, please, please, please, explain this one!!!
I sense this is the make or break point.
Hi VineBranch. Being remade or remake was a poor choice of words on my part. I have edited my post to read conformed instead of remade or remake. Thanks for pointing that out! I will now ask you the same question that I asked Dead2daworld. Are you saying it was not God's purpose for Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Blessings to you.
"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Will
« Reply #88 on: December 02, 2012, 02:43:56 AM »

So, re-made Adam doesn't have as soul?  When he  'remakes' Adam, does he 're-breathe' the same soul (making him Adam) or a new soul (making him someone else) into him?
If Adam is destroyed how can he be 're-made':  he is gone (macaw:  rubbed out).

First-made Adam didn't "have" a soul.  According to Genesis 2:7, it was:

lifeless body + Breath of Life = living soul. 

So, Adam didn't "have" a soul, he WAS a soul.  People need to get this distinction straight in their heads.  If I learned nothing else in the SDA church, it was this.

So, when God remakes Adam, He breathes or "re-breathes" the same Spirit into the resurrected body, and Adam again becomes a living soul, but this time glorified.  If Adam was destroyed, and he certainly did return to the dust, rest assured that God can put the same exact atoms back together if He chooses to do so.  I don't think God is bound by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.  As God asked Job:  "Is anything too difficult for Me?" 
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline VineBranch

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Re: Will
« Reply #89 on: December 02, 2012, 08:31:26 AM »
will now ask you the same question that I asked Dead2daworld. Are you saying it was not God's purpose for Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

That is the question around which this debate hinges.  If I say no, it was not God's plan, God allowed Adam free-will, then UR is doomed.  If I say yes, it was God's plan, then the whole debate about free-will is simply an exercise in logical construction.  Now that I have become aware of the plan, I say yes, it was God's plan.  But this means I cannot believe in free will, only in God limited freedoms.

So, Adam didn't "have" a soul, he WAS a soul.  People need to get this distinction straight in their heads.  If I learned nothing else in the SDA church, it was this.

So, when God remakes Adam, He breathes or "re-breathes" the same Spirit into the resurrected body, and Adam again becomes a living soul, but this time glorified.
But surely God remaking Adam is not the same as resurrecting the body of Adam.  The body would already have been made if it is resurrected, you can't remake what already is.

So, a soul can die?  Therefore discussions involving immortal soul are moot?

What is SDA?

Offline rjohnson741

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Re: Will
« Reply #90 on: December 02, 2012, 09:06:54 AM »
will now ask you the same question that I asked Dead2daworld. Are you saying it was not God's purpose for Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

That is the question around which this debate hinges.  If I say no, it was not God's plan, God allowed Adam free-will, then UR is doomed.  If I say yes, it was God's plan, then the whole debate about free-will is simply an exercise in logical construction.  Now that I have become aware of the plan, I say yes, it was God's plan.  But this means I cannot believe in free will, only in God limited freedoms.

So, Adam didn't "have" a soul, he WAS a soul.  People need to get this distinction straight in their heads.  If I learned nothing else in the SDA church, it was this.

So, when God remakes Adam, He breathes or "re-breathes" the same Spirit into the resurrected body, and Adam again becomes a living soul, but this time glorified.
But surely God remaking Adam is not the same as resurrecting the body of Adam.  The body would already have been made if it is resurrected, you can't remake what already is.

So, a soul can die?  Therefore discussions involving immortal soul are moot?

What is SDA?
Hi VineBranch. I am enjoying your comments and questions. They are very thought provoking. When you say free will are you referring to free will as understood by Arminians or are you talking about libertarian free will? Here's something for you to consider. Yes man does have a will and man does make voluntary choices or decisions. Has it occured to you that man's voluntary choices or decisions are compatible with God's sovereignty and God's purpose for man? Has it occuured to you that God uses our free choices or decisions, good or bad to accomplish His purposes and desires for us? Blessings.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 09:25:48 AM by rjohnson741 »
"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Psalm 145:9

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Will
« Reply #91 on: December 02, 2012, 09:14:45 AM »
In the course of a full lifetime we gradually cycle through about 13 bodies.  I don't think the reassembly of the same atoms that comprised our body of humiliation in this life for God to have something to raise into deathlessness is the point.  The "embodiment" realm is the entirety of the physical universe.  This will be glorified.  We are stardust.  Like the whirlpool in a river is energy elevated in complexity so are our lives with matter and energy flowing into and out of us that are for a time raised up in contradiction to the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Scripture not only says, "There is only one body," it also says, "There is one spirit."  All manifestations of spirit are out of and into one.  This doesn't mean that wicked and holy spirits are the same.  That would be nonsense.  Surface distinctions are not depth.  That they are spirit is how they are one, not what they are morally.  Spirit is one substance and multi-dimensionally higher than the physical, which also is us.  What we can endure of it now is in a promissory stage; then, "We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."  Spirit is substantial, of God's "breath of lives;" and, body is substantial, made from red clay, that is "break-down-able into tiny bits," a good description in Hebrew of atoms as building blocks.  "The spirit lusts against the flesh," and vice versa.

The soul is not an independent substance.  It is "becoming" from the union of spirit and body.  The soul can also be considered as either carnal, from devotion to the physical and it's lusts and senses, or the soul, agreeing with and walking around after the spirit, assists in subjecting the body to the spirit.

Spirit, soul, and body are not things we have, but are rather what we are, and they together make one.  This tri-unity is contrary to various mystical traditions, such as ancient Grecian that early infected Christian philosophy, stultifying the developing institutional replacement for the Church and Hinduism that considers the body realm illusion.


_________________________
(More should be said here about the soul, but I'm way past my bedtime with something unusual, friends are coming by tomorrow!)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 07:38:47 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline lomarah

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Re: Will
« Reply #92 on: December 02, 2012, 01:19:21 PM »
reF I so enjoyed and appreciated that post. :cloud9:

Have a wonderful time with your friends! And when they leave I would love to hear more about the soul. :)
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline VineBranch

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Re: Will
« Reply #93 on: December 02, 2012, 08:11:04 PM »
I don't think God is bound by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.   

I am of the opinion that God knows where all atoms are at all times, because He maintains the universe.  Did I write something to make you think I believe differently?  If I did, I do apologise.

When you say free will are you referring to free will as understood by Arminians or are you talking about libertarian free will?

I guess through out my life I have believed different aspects of each.  I have found though that I am not an Arminianst because it assumes that God predetermined who would be saved on their actions and then acted accordingly.  This would make man superior to God in that (through his future actions) he would have told God what to choose.  I think that is blatantly impossible, and perhaps a tad arrogant. 

At some point I think most of the discussions I have had about free-will hinge on the notion of moral responsibility (also, I think, the biggest reason for the notion of hell/hades in the traditional protestant 'Christian' tradition).  I think this notion defeats the Libertarian point because it actually destroys the notion of moral responsibilty for me.  How can we hold folk responsible for choices they didn't cause, if we don't hold them responsible for choices which were predetermined for them?  So, to answer your question neither, really.

My notion of free-will is summed up in this question:  can I, through my own ability, alienate myself from God.  If God has structured the universe such that I can, then I have free-will;  if God has structured the universe such that I can't, then I don't have free-will.  In either case the free-will comes from God.  Did He create me with the ability to walk away from Him, forever?

Had you asked me that question three months ago, I would have responded with a definite yes.  Now... I'm starting the thing more along the lines of no.


Here's something for you to consider. Yes man does have a will and man does make voluntary choices or decisions. Has it occured to you that man's voluntary choices or decisions are compatible with God's sovereignty and God's purpose for man? Has it occuured to you that God uses our free choices or decisions, good or bad to accomplish His purposes and desires for us? Blessings.

Yes rj, Daily.  Every time I tell my Father that I love Him, I know it is because He first loved me.  Therefore had He not loved me first, I would be lost in a loveless world, and perhaps worse, with a loveless self.  I also know the only reason I know He exists is because He told me.  One doesn't find God, God finds them.  The fact that I love God and know Him, and can talk to Him is at least predecated on His having found me, and created me to be found:  I didn't even know I was lost.  How could I unless He made me aware of it?  His Spirit witnessed with my spirit and because of that once I was blind, but now I see.  That couldn't have come about unless He made it so:  unless He structured it to be so.  How could I not believe that?


Offline dajomaco

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Re: Will
« Reply #94 on: December 02, 2012, 08:25:19 PM »
Spirit, soul, and body are not things we have, but are rather what we are

Thank you for the above statement.
As I grow in understanding of my body soul and spirit.
I grow in understanding of God's body soul and spirit.
I am one with my sisters and brothers .
The same substance that makes up my body makes up the body of all humanity
The same substance that makes up my soul makes up the soul of all of humanity.
The same substance that makes up my spirit makes up the spirit of all of humanity.

I am not so sure of the substance of God's BODY SOUL or SPIRIT.
I have an understanding that leaves a lot of room for more info.   

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Will
« Reply #95 on: December 02, 2012, 08:31:11 PM »
will now ask you the same question that I asked Dead2daworld. Are you saying it was not God's purpose for Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

That is the question around which this debate hinges.  If I say no, it was not God's plan, God allowed Adam free-will, then UR is doomed.  If I say yes, it was God's plan, then the whole debate about free-will is simply an exercise in logical construction.  Now that I have become aware of the plan, I say yes, it was God's plan.  But this means I cannot believe in free will, only in God limited freedoms.

So, Adam didn't "have" a soul, he WAS a soul.  People need to get this distinction straight in their heads.  If I learned nothing else in the SDA church, it was this.

So, when God remakes Adam, He breathes or "re-breathes" the same Spirit into the resurrected body, and Adam again becomes a living soul, but this time glorified.
But surely God remaking Adam is not the same as resurrecting the body of Adam.  The body would already have been made if it is resurrected, you can't remake what already is.

So, a soul can die?  Therefore discussions involving immortal soul are moot?

What is SDA?

The idea that UR is doomed if God gave Adam a "free will"(I don't like the terminology because some people take that as a "will that can over-rule God") UR is "DOOMED" is not logical to me.

It misses the possibility that God's love and light of truth and fire of justice is glorious enough to ultimately win through the rebellion of every soul.

"If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me".....

This one act of sacrificial love by the very creator of all things DISARMED EVRY ADVERSARY.

1 Cor 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight

Col 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

IMO, The love of God will disarm evry adversary and "gather all into one in Christ"(Eph1:10), "reconcile all through the blood of His cross"(Col 1:16-21), and then he will return all things to the Father so that God will be ALL IN ALL(1 Cor 15:23-28).

God predestined this as the I AM- but IMO it is accomplished by the overwhelming glory of His being and love for His creation winning out over all rebellion, hatred and deception........... not the moment to moment choreography of all of our acts and thoughts.
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Offline sheila

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Re: Will
« Reply #96 on: December 02, 2012, 08:41:23 PM »
 awhole lot of room,Daj!  the heavens can not contain Him..speaking of Father's substance....

  and celestial body.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Will
« Reply #97 on: December 02, 2012, 08:41:42 PM »
    Did He create me with the ability to walk away from Him, forever?

This is just an opinion.
We can walk away from God forever ( forever being a duration of time that we
have been given the mental resources to understand).
God's resources for understanding forever are far greater than ours.
Eventually we will all freely surrender our free will to him.
Yes at the final Christmas party we will be re-gifting God. 

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Will
« Reply #98 on: December 02, 2012, 08:58:17 PM »
I would also like to ask, how is the idea that God "programmed" the utter destruction and torture of millions of people throughout the ages any different than a God who could "program" a plan where most of His creation would be tormented forever or eternally destroyed?

We who believe in the "salvation of all" repeatedly use the argument that such a God would be a monster indeed, but I see no difference between the nature of these two gods. Only a difference in degree.

Included in all else it teaches, the story of the fall is about a choice.
"If you eat you shall die"

Included in all else it teaches, the story of Cain and Able is about a choice.
"Sin is crouching at the door and it would master you but you must master it".

Included in all else it teaches, the story of the cross of Christ is aboput a choice.
"Father could you please make this cup pass from me?.......Nevrtheless, let not MY WILL be done, let YOUR WILL be done."
"Father forgive them, they don't kno what they are doing".


The scripture says "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all"....and "God does not sin nor can He be tempted with sin"- yet Jesus was tempted in all ways like as we are.....He learned obedience through the things He suffered and exercised His will out of love for the Father. This is the new birth- a new will that is drawn by the love of God- no longer drawn by self and the world. Discipleship is about the maturing and manifestation of that new man, created in the image of Christ- progressively yielding more and more unto God.

So, what am I trying to say? :o)

What God has done runs much deeper, in my opinion, than Calvinists or Arminians, Preterists or Literalists of any persuasion or degree have fathomed. Nothing He has done is ever so simple as to be enveloped in our "black and white" reasonings and misguided logic chains. We simply don't have the breadth of perspective from which to offer these conclusions that often exceed the testimony of the scriptures and are built using the verses that fit our theology while excising the ones that don't.

"Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor
"Who has given to Him that He should repay
"For from Him and Through Him and To him are all things to whom be the glory forever.
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Offline jabcat

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Re: Will
« Reply #99 on: December 02, 2012, 10:22:21 PM »
My notion of free-will is summed up in this question:  can I, through my own ability, alienate myself from God.  If God has structured the universe such that I can, then I have free-will;  if God has structured the universe such that I can't, then I don't have free-will.  In either case the free-will comes from God.  Did He create me with the ability to walk away from Him, forever?


"Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition.." - Theopedia, An Encyclopedia of Christianity

This is good and pleases God our Savior, who will have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.  1 Timothy 2:3,4

Blessings and peace brother.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23