Will

[jabcat]

You had me at "free"

Did you know the human head weighs 8 pounds?   

Don't you think one of the big "problems" is, we're trying to discuss something infinite and totally of Holy origin, with our feeble little humans minds and veiled vision?  God and His ways are SO much bigger and better than we can truly comprehend?

I'm reminded of this song;

I made You promises a thousand times
I tried to hear from Heaven
But I talked the whole time
I think I made You too small
I never feared You at all, no
If You touched my face would I know You
Looked into my eyes could I behold You

What do I know of You
Who spoke me into motion
Where have I even stood
But the shore along Your ocean
Are You fire, are You fury
Are You sacred, are You beautiful
What do I know, what do I know of Holy

I guess I thought that I had figured You out
I knew all the stories and I learned to talk about
How You were mighty to save
Those were only empty words on a page
Then I caught a glimpse of who You might be
The slightest hint of You brought me down to my knees

What do I know of You
Who spoke me into motion
Where have I even stood
But the shore along Your ocean
Are You fire, are You fury
Are You sacred, are You beautiful
So what do I know, what do I know of Holy

What do I know of Holy
What do I know of wounds that will heal my shame
And a God who gave life it's name
What do I know of Holy
Of the One who the angels praise
All creation knows Your name
On earth and heaven above
What do I know of this love

What do I know of You
Who spoke me into motion
Where have I even stood
But the shore along Your ocean
Are You fire, are You fury
Are You sacred, are You beautiful
What do I know of Holy


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDkQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DN6J5TzSE_18&ei=6yy1UN-nG8W02wWVpYGICw&usg=AFQjCNEULoNzKRLwtVHmRu3p1GcxfGAxAA&sig2=beoBqDT5vEyQtB-Gdn0mzA

Blessings.

[VineBranch]

I honestly don't believe I can choose to not be a child of God today.

I don't believe I can either.  Satan however, was with God and he chose to leave Him.  God seems to have respected that decision.

[jabcat]

I honestly don't believe I can choose to not be a child of God today.

I don't believe I can either.  Satan however, was with God and he chose to leave Him.  God seems to have respected that decision.

I certainly believe God requires and SOMETIMES respects our choices.  I see it like this - God always has a plan in teaching us through those choices.  In our case as humans, I believe those choices are influenced - some more than others, depending on His will and specific plan for each individual.  As far as satan, I believe God had an overall HUGE plan for that, including how we are dealt with, learn, and are led through our lives and through the centuries, etc.. (until it's concluded in His being All in All I Cor. 15:28).  So He certainly allowed or "respected" that. I believe satan's one tool used to achieve God's purposes. That whole satan thing is another HUGE discussion   :o   :)  Blessings.

[Molly]

A couple of things..

I think God can give us lots of freedom up to a point in time when it is necessary for whatever reason that he pulls in the reigns.   So we see Moses who was even a murderer, and on the lam when God pulls in his reigns at 80 years old.  Up to that point, although I believe God was protecting and guiding Moses with a very loose hand, Moses was pretty much free to choose his own way.

Another thing, when we speak of 'works,' again, we are free to do our own 'works' up to the point when it is time for God to set us on the path of the works for which we were created.  And, oddly enough, one is never freer than when doing the very thing for which he was created, whether it be weaving baskets or leading the Israelites out of captivity.




 
10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do


--Eph 2:10

[ded2daworld]

Vinebranch said, "Satan however, was with God and he chose to leave Him."
Yet, God planned to use Satan all along for his purposes. Satan may have thought that was his free will and maybe it was, but being omniscient God was ready to use Satan as he saw fit while all along Satan thought he was acting independently.
Like with Job.

[jabcat]

Up to that point, although I believe God was protecting and guiding Moses with a very loose hand, Moses was pretty much free to choose his own way.

Hey, you weighed in on this!      (the bolded) How truly "free" is that?     Again, I think we're talking about things so much bigger than us that our limited, corrupted language cannot even rightly express it.  But  I believe God was influencing, limiting, providing the options from which Moses had to choose.     Perhaps the point of God "reigning him in" was then the culmination of all those years that had God's hand on them?  I truly don't know, is there specific scriptural evidence that would show God "leaving Moses alone" vs. being involved in his life through the years - even though he made many "bad" choices, was God totally removed, disinterested, or still had walls set up which Moses bumped into, then had to decide the next way to go?

Another thing, when we speak of 'works,' again, we are free to do our own 'works' up to the point when it is time for God to set us on the path of the works for which we were created.  And, oddly enough, one is never freer than when doing the very thing for which he was created, whether it be weaving baskets or leading the Israelites out of captivity.

By the first part, do you mean free to live in sin until one is spiritually reborn?  Then the Holy Spirit is at work, shaping and guiding, so then it's not as free?  I think that's an interesting thought, and I think I agree with that to a large extent.  But then I think of this - is the child born in the Sudanese desert as "free" as the child born into a Christian home?  Or do both situations have God's hand on them somehow, again, limiting, setting parameters within which they can operate, placing different choices and opportunities before them.  That's not just a matter of "chance" is it?   

On the second part ("created for good works"), I don't know.  Who the Son makes free is free indeed..but does that mean totally free of any of His influence ("free will"), or free from the bondage of sin, which makes one "free" to enjoy the Father's influence, will, and redemption?  Able to rejoice in His presence rather than run from it?

At some point, I promise, I'll back out of this for awhile.    Cause I think we could discuss a thousand different intricacies of what it all means and never arrive at the ultimate point.  Also, sometimes I have to stop thinking about it, cause I can't completely figure it out and it makes my 8 lb. head swim.   I just sort of go with this for my own simple mind..

IMO, if a will is influenced at all, it's not free... "man's will" and "God's will"... can take in all the intricacies, i.e., man's requirement by God to make choices by which to learn and grow, but all within parameters and limits He sets and the controls He chooses to initiate - according to His will.  And in the end, man's will submits to God's supreme and perfect will, in the direct Presence of irresistable Love and grace.

Blessings friend.

[micah7:9]

Hi All,

I think God gave man the idea that he has a free will, but does he? In my opinion, no, he does not. It is just another thing that God is using to teach us with.

It says "choose this day whom you will serve" but then it says God has blinded their eyes and closed their ears so they could not choose. Of course we choose but why and how do we choose is the next question?

Just like in (Phil. 2:12) paul says "work out your own salvation" then the next verse says "For it is God which worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure". So how are you going to work out your own salvation if it is God doing it all?

You know how sometimes you allow your children to think they are thinking and choosing for themselves when actually it is you that has set up the events so that they will choose or do exactly what you want them to. It makes them feel good thinking they are in control of things when really they are not. I guess it is one way that God makes us feel good about our selves. It is an ego trip and this fuels it. Another way of teaching us that we are not in control.

Just my 

CHB

Worth every penny!

[Molly]

Hey, you weighed in on this!  (the bolded) How truly "free" is that?  Again, I think we're talking about things so much bigger than us that our limited, corrupted language cannot even rightly express it. But I believe God was influencing, limiting, providing the options from which Moses had to choose.  Perhaps the point of God "reigning him in" was then the culmination of all those years that had God's hand on them? I truly don't know, is there specific scriptural evidence that would show God "leaving Moses alone" vs. being involved in his life through the years - even though he made many "bad" choices, was God totally removed, disinterested, or still had walls set up which Moses bumped into, then had to decide the next way to go?

You ask, how truly free is that, referring to God guiding and protecting Moses with a loose hand.  I can only relate to my own life, when I did things that made my guardian angels tear their hair out, and yet I was able to recover and even live through them.  You know, fools rush in...and all that.  Moses did his share of such things--committing murder at age 40, he could have easily ended up in jail or even dead--so that is all I meant by "God guiding and protecting."   God had bigger plans for Moses than jail or dead.  I also doubt you would want to argue that God caused Moses to commit murder.

I guess one could argue the point, but what I meant was that Moses had 80 years to pick his own path until God called to him from the burning bush and told him exactly how he was going to be spending his time for the next 40 years.  So, in our sense of the word, Moses was no longer 'free' after that, he no longer belonged to himself.

When God finally decided to step in, Moses had no doubt in his mind what his mission was going forward.

By the first part, do you mean free to live in sin until one is spiritually reborn? Then the Holy Spirit is at work, shaping and guiding, so then it's not as free? I think that's an interesting thought, and I think I agree with that to a large extent. But then I think of this - is the child born in the Sudanese desert as "free" as the child born into a Christian home? Or do both situations have God's hand on them somehow, again, limiting, setting parameters within which they can operate, placing different choices and opportunities before them. That's not just a matter of "chance" is it?

Yes, even live in sin if that is your choice.  A lot of born again Christians will admit that they started out leading the most sinful of lives.   What else are we to do when there are no absolutes of right and wrong, even the best of us?  And, many will say that they learned the hard way why God prohibits the things that he does.  It is to make our lives easier not harder.  It is to keep us safe and happy and long lived.  But, try telling that to a teenager!  Sometimes we have to go astray first to learn what we need to learn, and I believe God gives us the freedom to do that.

No, I don't think there is chance involved in where we are born.  But, I do think that if we are one of his sheep, he will come for us when the time is right no matter what the circumstances.

Sons are 'appointed,' and appointments include timing.

[VineBranch]

So, in our sense of the word, Moses was no longer 'free' after that, he no longer belonged to himself.

When God finally decided to step in, Moses had no doubt in his mind what his mission was going forward.

I kinda think he did ...

Moses balked and said his speech wasn't up to the task.  He said God could sent Aaron, and God sent Aaron with him.  So, was that then Moses exercising his will?  Scripture never said God wanted Aaron, yet lo and behold, because Moses broached the subject, Aaron went along.  If God wanted Aaron along from the start Moses wasn't indeed "'free' after that...".

[Molly]

So, in our sense of the word, Moses was no longer 'free' after that, he no longer belonged to himself.

When God finally decided to step in, Moses had no doubt in his mind what his mission was going forward.

I kinda think he did ...

Moses balked and said his speech wasn't up to the task.  He said God could sent Aaron, and God sent Aaron with him.  So, was that then Moses exercising his will?  Scripture never said God wanted Aaron, yet lo and behold, because Moses broached the subject, Aaron went along.  If God wanted Aaron along from the start Moses wasn't indeed "'free' after that...".

I think we see that a lot when God finally steps into lives and takes direct control.

You want me to do what? 

That's a very precious exchange between God and Moses at the beginning with Moses coming up with all the reasons why he can't do it and God coming up with all the reasons why he can do it.

We see the same thing with Gideon and others.

But, notice, regarding Moses and Aaron:   Aaron is a representative of the Jewish priesthood, and encumbered by ritual and duty and distance from God, whereas Moses is a representative of the Melchizedek priesthood, and free to talk to God face to face.

[VineBranch]

But, notice, regarding Moses and Aaron:   Aaron is a representative of the Jewish priesthood, and encumbered by ritual and duty and distance from God, whereas Moses is a representative of the Melchizedek priesthood, and free to talk to God face to face.

Hunh?

[Molly]

I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."

--John 21:18

[eaglesway]

I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."

--John 21:18

I love that verse :o)

[jabcat]

If I could just interject..I personally believe we do have will, and it often fights against God..I just don't think we're in control nearly as much as we'd like to think, and that God's unseen hand is often influencing, guiding, "in the way" so we bump into it and have to choose another direction, pulling us back from the precipice, etc, etc..  I also believe something strongly about the beginning and the ending..in the beginning, God creates us to be what we are and where we are (such as the "created for good works" scripture.  Then in the end, His will wins ("love wins") because even if we have THE most stubborn will imaginable, "God works all things according to the counsel of His will", "He came to seek and save that which was lost", "the Father has given all things over into My hands", "..the living God, who WILL have all men be saved".

Fire is a great cleanser, purifier, and changer.We all know that a horse must be broken, that is, its will must be broken before it is of any practical use to man. God put that will in the horse, but it must be broken and made to conform to the will of man. Just as surely did God put the will in man, BUT IT MUST BE BROKEN and we will benefit by the very process of breaking. Man may do a lot of crying and wailing, but when he is broken to HIS will, what a wonderful condition it is. God may take man over some rough places, even through the lake of fire and brimstone, but the love of God will break every man to His will.If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. You have to make war on the carnal mind with fire, divine fire that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around.

Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."  J. Preston Eby

[eaglesway]

See? a question everybody can have an opinion different and we can all be right!
"Choose this day whom you will serve" is a great indicator of free will.
But the choice is not offered to everyone.
"God hardened Pharoah's heart"
Paul as Saul,thought (as others have) that they were serving and had chosen God. Muslims are a perfect example.
Cult leaders and their followers think they are serving God
And of course, the people that never heard the good news and won't hear it in their lifetime.
After death, those that have died not having chosen God, will ALL (of their own free will) choose God.
That seems to be a contradiction but free or not, our will is not stronger than the love of God and he will be irrestible,
making an offer that can't or won't be refused.
Does even God have free will? yes and no. we say God can do anything, but he cannot lie, he cannot sin, and he cannot not love, for that his nature and essence.

Amen, that is why salvation is a change of nature, a new creation, old things pass away, BEHOLD, ALL THINGS BECOME NEW.

[rjohnson741]

To VineBranch. Are you saying the self will of man can resist and reject for all eternity the love of an All Powerful and All Loving God who can demostrate that love to them in an endless array of ways? If God can draw Saul of Tarsus, who was the chief of sinners(1Timothy 1:15), and you and me to Himself, why do you believe God can't draw all men to Himself? And that's exactly what the Bible says He will do---"And I if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME" John 12:32. Did God force you or me to come to Him? Of course not. Yet God still drew us to Him and we willingly came to Him. Why do you believe God can't do that for everyone? You are underestimating the power of the blood of Christ. God will draw all peoples to Himself through His Love and Grace expressed in the power of the Cross, just as He did for you and me. Blessings to you.

[VineBranch]

I'm afraid Molly your argument may too sophisticated for me.  What does a 'priesthood' (?) have to do with a statement of aging, have to do with free agency.

I don't follow.  Do these things relate to LDS doctrine?  Sorry, I mean no offence, just really confused.

[eaglesway]

Are you saying the self will of man can resist and reject for all eternity the love of an All Powerful and All Loving God who can demostrate that love to them in an endless array of ways? If God can draw Saul of Tarsus, who was the chief of sinners(1Timothy 1:15), and you and me to Himself, why do you believe God can't draw all men to Himself? And that's exactly what the Bible says He will do---"And I if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME" John 12:32. Did God force you or me to come to Him? Of course not. Yet God still drew us to Him and we willingly came to Him. Why do you believe God can't do that for everyone? You are underestimating the power of the blood of Christ. God will draw all peoples to Himself through His Love and Grace expressed in the power of the Cross, just as He did for you and me. Blessings to you.

I believe that within God's ultimate sovereignty He has imposed upon man a stewardship that has consequences and involves the transformation of His mind , will, heart and emotions. Where there is no will there can be no stewardship. I have never argued with sovereignty of God - I just argue with people who say that man has no will, because they always say it with philosophy, because the scriptures do not uphold that statement. A cursory word study of the words "freedom" and "yield" and "obey" will show that there the end of God's sovereign will will be that every creature is completely free- and totally immersed in the love of God. That is "the glorious freedom of the children of God".

Once you are set free from futility you are free. Before you are free you are futile. Where there is love there is no law. When God is all in all there is no rule power or authority, it is all abolished- every soul completely free. Love is like that :o)

[VineBranch]

To rjohnson741.  Hi, how are you? Thanks for the personal note.

No, I am not saying God is incapable of doing anything.  I am merely saying that if something is a foregone conclusion then the notion of free will is illusionary.  If it is illusionary, then anything specifically required to fulfill something as a means to an end is merely an arbitrary process.  If the end result cannot be avoided, then what use is a middle?  It is just preference not necessity.  Why would we get all worked up over spreading the Gospel if the end is achieved regardless of whether the Gospel is spread or not.

Furthermore, what becomes of meaning?  What becomes of significance?  What is the difference then between us and the materialists who insist all is chemical?  What becomes of love if it is merely a response to preprogrammed stimuli:  can it even be called real?

[Molly]

I'm afraid Molly your argument may too sophisticated for me.  What does a 'priesthood' (?) have to do with a statement of aging, have to do with free agency.

I don't follow.  Do these things relate to LDS doctrine?  Sorry, I mean no offence, just really confused.

I mentioned that about Aaron and Moses because I thought you might understand.   But, you didn't so I am at a loss to explain it easily.   Let's just say although it might have looked as though Moses was less free once God came into his life directly, and on some level that might be argued, he was in fact more free, as would anyone be in the position of talking to his Creator face to face as a friend.

The statement on aging, as you put it, is really a statement on spiritual maturity.

LDS? no.

[rjohnson741]

Are you saying the self will of man can resist and reject for all eternity the love of an All Powerful and All Loving God who can demostrate that love to them in an endless array of ways? If God can draw Saul of Tarsus, who was the chief of sinners(1Timothy 1:15), and you and me to Himself, why do you believe God can't draw all men to Himself? And that's exactly what the Bible says He will do---"And I if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME" John 12:32. Did God force you or me to come to Him? Of course not. Yet God still drew us to Him and we willingly came to Him. Why do you believe God can't do that for everyone? You are underestimating the power of the blood of Christ. God will draw all peoples to Himself through His Love and Grace expressed in the power of the Cross, just as He did for you and me. Blessings to you.

I believe that within God's ultimate sovereignty He has imposed upon man a stewardship that has consequences and involves the transformation of His mind , will, heart and emotions. Where there is no will there can be no stewardship. I have never argued with sovereignty of God - I just argue with people who say that man has no will, because they always say it with philosophy, because the scriptures do not uphold that statement. A cursory word study of the words "freedom" and "yield" and "obey" will show that there the end of God's sovereign will will be that every creature is completely free- and totally immersed in the love of God. That is "the glorious freedom of the children of God".

Once you are set free from futility you are free. Before you are free you are futile. Where there is love there is no law. When God is all in all there is no rule power or authority, it is all abolished- every soul completely free. Love is like that :o)

                                                                                                                    Hi EaglesWay. I agree with your previous comment that salvation is a change of nature, a new creation, old things pass away. Behold I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW. I agree 100% percent with that comment. My previous post was to VineBranch. Sorry for the confusion. Blessings to you.

[eaglesway]

Yea, I got that after :o) Grace and peace, John

[jabcat]

On the second part ("created for good works"), I don't know.  Who the Son makes free is free indeed..but does that mean totally free of any of His influence ("free will")?  Or free from the bondage of sin, which makes one "free" to enjoy the Father's influence, will, and redemption?  Able to rejoice in His presence rather than run from it?

What do you make of how these scrips fit together, reconcile?


Forward excerpt and scriptures from The Christian Bible (extremely literal to the Koine Greek).

Lord vs. Master: The Greek word "kurios" is the antonym (or
opposite) of "slave"; and the antonym of "slave" is "master," not "lord."
So we have properly translated "kurios" as "master."

Romans 1: 1 This is from Paul, a slave of the Anointed One Yesu, who has
been called to be a dispatched envoy, having been cut off for God's
Good Message,

Romans 6: You+ are slaves of the one whom you obey, whether it is
slavery to that which is wrong, which is going to result in Death, or to obedience, which is going to result in being right

Romans 6: 18 Now having been freed from that which is
wrong, you became slaves of that which is right [and just]. ..so now you+
must present the parts of your bodies as slaves to that which is right [and
just], which is going to result in purity!... 22 Yet now that you have been freed from that which is wrong and have become slaves of God

1 Cor. 4: 4 A human must be continually regarding us in this manner, as
assistants of the Anointed One and management slaves of God's secrets!

1 Cor. 9: 16 For if I am continually spreading the Good Message, I can't boast about it,
FOR COMPULSION TO DO SO WAS PRESSED UPON ME; for how terrible it is for me if I don't spread the Good Message! 17 For if I am engaging in this
voluntarily, then I would have wages; yet if it is involuntarily, then I have
been entrusted with a service as a management slave. 18 So then, what is
my wage? It is this, that in spreading the Good Message


"3 CONTRAST" SCRIPS 
1)  Galatians 4:3 This is how it is with us too, when we were youngsters, we were slaves under the elementary lessons of this world. 4 Yet when the fullness [completion] of that time came, God dispatched out His Son, born from a woman, born under theLaw, 5 so that He might reclaim those under the Law, so that we might obtain adoption as sons. 6 Now because you+ are sons, God has dispatched His Son's Spirit out into our hearts, yelling, "Abba ['Father'],
Father!" 7 Therefore because of God you are no longer a slave, but a son;and since you are a son, then an heir also of a share.

2)  Romans 8: 15 For you+ didn't get a spirit of slavery again that results in fear, but you got a spirit of adoption as sons by which we are continually yelling out, "Abba ['Father'], Father!"

3)  !!! 1 Peter 1:16 Act like free persons, only don't use your freedom as a coverup for what is bad, but act like God's slaves.


Philippians 1: 1 This is from Paul and Timothy, slaves of the Anointed One Yesu,

James 1: 1 This is from James, a slave of God and of the Master Yesu

2 Peter 1: 1 This is from Simon Peter, a slave and envoy dispatched by Yesu

Jude 1: 1 This is from Jude, a slave of Yesu

Revelation 1: 1 This is the revelation from Yesu (the Anointed One) that God
gave to Him to show His slaves what has to occur within a short time. Now He has shown the signs and dispatched them by means of His
Messenger to His slave John

Revelation 7: 3 saying, "You must not injure the earth, the sea, or the trees, until we
have put a seal on the foreheads of our God's slaves!"

[Molly]

Free is a state of mind, as much as anything else.

If you are married and adore your wife, you feel free, whereas if you don't, you might feel like a prisoner.  But in both cases, your physical situation is the same.

In one case, the limitations that marriage imposes is a delight, in the other a burden.

[ded2daworld]

Right Molly- and since we are engaged to be married to the King...
It will be a delight