Author Topic: wicked angels saved?  (Read 1526 times)

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Offline ded2daworld

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wicked angels saved?
« on: November 06, 2012, 03:56:44 PM »
There is some question to UR people from time to time about whether or not the wicked angels that
rebelled with Satan will be redeemed or not.

IMO, they will be reconciled to God eventually but not based on the shed blood of Jesus.  Consider Heb 2:16 (Bold word by me)
16 "For it is clear that it is not the angels that he helps. Instead, he helps the descendants of Abraham."
God has a plan of reconciliation for the angels - it's just not the same plan as the reconciliation of humans and we humans have no need now to know how Our Lord will accomplish this.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Paul L

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2012, 06:11:44 PM »
Quote
IMO, they will be reconciled to God eventually but not based on the shed blood of Jesus.  Consider Heb 2:16 (Bold word by me)

Makes perfect sense in light of John 3:16, "God so loved the world....", no mention of anything of the rest of the universe of "stars" all of which God calls by name.

Quote
16 "For it is clear that it is not the angels that he helps. Instead, he helps the descendants of Abraham."
God has a plan of reconciliation for the angels - it's just not the same plan as the reconciliation of humans and we humans have no need now to know how Our Lord will accomplish this.

In light of the fact they are bound in darkness someplace waiting for "judgement" seems to support your conclusion here. Until now, I assumed they would be covered by Christ's blood as we are, but the point you allude to, that these are spirit beings, points to the premise their sin cannot be covered by "blood", as can ours. 

Offline dajomaco

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2012, 06:49:37 PM »
I don't want to be in violation of jury tampering.

What happens to the angels is up to us, we will be their judge.
We will decide the final out come of the angels we will pass judgment and it will be final.

I'm' not sure whether members of the jury are suppose to talk about the case before
 starts or have deliberations already started.

Offline Paul L

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2012, 07:05:44 PM »
I don't want to be in violation of jury tampering.

What happens to the angels is up to us, we will be their judge.
We will decide the final out come of the angels we will pass judgment and it will be final.

I'm' not sure whether members of the jury are suppose to talk about the case before
 starts or have deliberations already started.

Daj,

You just made my day, I needed some good humor to get my attitude back into some sense of normalcy, I've been having a lousy day.

After I last posted just above you, I thought of 1 Cor 6.3. I've often wondered why though. Why is God is leaving it to us to judge these rebellious spirits? I frankly don't feel qualified to judge anybody, I feel like God may be giving me a job I don't want......and now the jury pool has become polluted......great.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2012, 07:33:24 PM »
I wonder how we who have been forgiven so much could condemn anyone or anything else
Oh well, I'm sure things will be different then :laughing7:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline dajomaco

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2012, 06:56:16 AM »
We don't have to decide this issue today.
Once we have heard the greatest litigators.
The Holy Spirit representing his angles.
Satan representing his angles.
We will make a judgment based on OUR FREE WILL (lol)

Offline misszoolander

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2012, 12:29:25 AM »
I think in the end if we judge the fallen angels, we will judge them with mercy.

The reason I say this is because in the end we will be like Christ. We will be holy, and without sin. We will judge on how Christs judged us. We were his enemies. Yet he died for us, I think when we go to God after the resurrection, mankind will understand this, and because we are purified God can trust us with the Judgement of  fallen Angels.
It is well with my soul.

Offline Paul L

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2012, 12:38:24 AM »
I think in the end if we judge the fallen angels, we will judge them with mercy.

The reason I say this is because in the end we will be like Christ. We will be holy, and without sin. We will judge on how Christs judged us. We were his enemies. Yet he died for us, I think when we go to God after the resurrection, mankind will understand this, and because we are purified God can trust us with the Judgement of  fallen Angels.

We will be uniquely qualified for this job because of lessons in compassion our painful flesh & blood existence is teaching us. The "fallen angels" to this day are unrepentant because they have never had to feel physical pain for making wrong decisions, you know, like sticking your hand in a fire & feeling the painful consequences.

Offline shawn

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2012, 06:44:38 AM »
I don't want to be in violation of jury tampering.

What happens to the angels is up to us, we will be their judge.
We will decide the final out come of the angels we will pass judgment and it will be final.

I'm' not sure whether members of the jury are suppose to talk about the case before
 starts or have deliberations already started.

Daj,

You just made my day, I needed some good humor to get my attitude back into some sense of normalcy, I've been having a lousy day.

After I last posted just above you, I thought of 1 Cor 6.3. I've often wondered why though. Why is God is leaving it to us to judge these rebellious spirits? I frankly don't feel qualified to judge anybody, I feel like God may be giving me a job I don't want......and now the jury pool has become polluted......great.

And maybe that is why you would make a good judge.  A judge who enjoys judging, and who believes he is worthy to be judge?  Doesn't sound like a guy I would want judging others.

Offline VineBranch

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2012, 07:08:50 AM »
IMO, they will be reconciled to God eventually but not based on the shed blood of Jesus.  Consider Heb 2:16 (Bold word by me)
16 "For it is clear that it is not the angels that he helps. Instead, he helps the descendants of Abraham."
God has a plan of reconciliation for the angels - it's just not the same plan as the reconciliation of humans and we humans have no need now to know how Our Lord will accomplish this.

But I'm not a descendant of Abraham either.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2012, 02:30:13 PM »
VB - Paul says that all christians are descendants of Abraham in the sense that we have a share in the inheritance of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. IMO, The Bible was referring to spiritual descendants. Just as Paul says even though a person is not born a jew, through Christ, may consider himself a Jew. - That's what I do. - When I read the old testament and the patriarchs, and David and the prophets, I think of them as my ancestors. They all went before me in the faith in the same God and we are related spiritually. Physically, we all descended from Noah and spiritually, he was the first of faith in the 2nd aeion which was postflood.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2012, 06:05:18 PM »
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Eph 2:8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. 13 Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

IMO, Altho the application may be different, it is the blood of Jesus that makes possible the reconciliation of ALL. He created all things, and all things are being reconciled THROUGH THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS. Along the way God is teaching His wisdom to the adversaries in the heavenly realms, the prince of the power of the air and the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms.
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Offline Paul L

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2012, 06:27:10 PM »

And maybe that is why you would make a good judge.  A judge who enjoys judging, and who believes he is worthy to be judge?  Doesn't sound like a guy I would want judging others.

......and can't you just imagine a scenario somewhere off in the future when Christ & the Father are handing out the job assignments?

OK Shawn: Today you get 10,000 cases to adjudicate
OK Paul: Today you get 10,000 cases to adjudicate
OK Apostle Paul: Today you get 100,000 cases to adjudicate

I only want to get along with whomever I'm in the company of, I already pretty well know how to make the correct moral decisions with regards to my conduct, it's a practice that has become an earthly lifestyle though often frought with impediments. I almost always feel as if I just want to go on vacation & be left alone to enjoy the company of brothers & sisters in Christ, and maybe get the opportunity of learning to play my guitar better than I presently do; I honestly cannot imagine how Christ & the Father will change this mindset, maybe it's only that I'm starting to get tired of battling earthly elements & a heavenly setting will re-arrange my thought patterns.

What's that verse in Matt 7:1 "judge not lest you be judged"....this sort of statement by none other than Christ himself can prey upon your mind concerning how you think of anything about others.


« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 06:57:53 PM by Paul L »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2012, 10:23:55 PM »
Sometimes I wonder if we get all too caught up in the concept of judging as in sentencing. The JUDGES of Israel LED Israel. I wonder if this judging could have more to do with leading people and angels, etc into the ALLNESS of God.
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Offline misszoolander

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2012, 11:06:59 PM »
I will copy and paste the following which I believe is relevant as Satan too was a fallen Angel.

Revelation 1:1 says: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants - things which must shortly take place..."

Revelation 20:7-10 says this: "7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

The moment that God gives a prophecy, it has to come true, because God can not tell a lie. If God ever gave us a prophecy which did not come true, He would lose all credibility.

Satan, which means resister, adversary, opponent, is the worst in evil that it is possible to get. Where evil is concerned, he is the best. There could never be a better opponent of God than Satan.

However, what does not make sense, is that when there is an easy way of defeating God, why does Satan not take it? If you were trying to win a battle, and there was a plan whereby you could win the battle, would you not do so?

"But there is not a plan whereby God could be defeated, is there?"

Well, yes, in actual fact, there is. And it is so simple that it does not take a genius to work it out. It is well within Satan's thinking capabilities. All he has to do, is not do the things God says he is going to do in this prophecy, and he will have won. God would have said something that is untrue. Game, set, and match to Satan. That is all he has to do. If you stop and think about it, it could not be easier. If Satan were to resist going through with this prophecy, he would have defeated God.

And I have to tell you right now, that God is not scratching His head wondering if Satan will resist fulfilling this prophecy. If Satan were not completely under control, God would have something to be concerned about. But he is completely under control. And since it is impossible for God to tell a lie, this prophecy has to come true. God is not a God of chance, and this prophecy is not within Satan's powers to change. Our Heavenly Father is not the author of confusion, which means that Satan is not a runaway horse.

When he was first created, he was not a Satan; he did not resist God.

In Ezekiel chapter 28:11-15, there seems to be a parallel between Satan and the king of Tyre. In fact, it becomes obvious that some of the things it says could not possibly be speaking of the king of Tyre, but typify Satan.

"11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 'Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, "Thus says the Lord GOD: 'You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you." ' " ' "

Verse 12. Speaking of Satan…"You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty."

"You were the seal of perfection…" literally, the sealing of a pattern. The Amplified Version says, "You are the full measure and pattern of exactness…" The Latin Vulgate says, "Thou wast the seal of resemblance…" So it is speaking about a sealing of a pattern, or a resemblance, or an exact likeness of someone. Satan was sealed with the same exactness of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in nature. All had the same nature as God; the difference being that Jesus was trained, and the other two were created to the allotment of a pattern. But all three had the same nature; two could not sin by restriction, and one (Jesus) theoretically could sin, until proven otherwise.

Verse 12 continues, "…Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty." And since true wisdom, which has its source in God, leads to the reverence of God, Satan must have worshipped and loved God.

Verse 14: "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones."

"You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you;…" Now that indicates high office, with God-given authority and God-given responsibility. He was anointed to that office. And the duty of cherubs was to guard and protect God's interests.

Genesis 3:24 says: "So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life."

They were guarding and protecting God's interests.

The one who became Satan was the anointed cherub who covers, established by God. That was his office; to guard and protect God's interests, whatever the cost. Are you under the impression that someone who has been sealed with the exact pattern of God, could somehow do what he had not been programmed to do? Is that credible? If this anointed cherub, who became Satan, failed to do what he had been programmed to do, who do you think would be to blame? He was supposedly sealed with the exact likeness of God. If he was sealed with the exact likeness of God, then it would be impossible for him to sin. Therefore, it would be impossible for him not to guard and protect God's interests.

At this time, God already had Jesus prepared as His Word and Saviour to be.

He already had the Holy Spirit prepared as the caretaker of His power.

And now He had someone prepared to guard and protect His interests.

So what do you think was necessary to protect God's interests?

One thing was absolutely necessary: evil, without which full truth could never become available. And without which Jesus could never fulfil His role as Saviour of the world. Without evil, there could never be freewill for anyone, because no one could ever come to a full understanding of truth. And without a full understanding of truth, there is always the possibility of doubt in God Himself; and doubt in God is sin. If there were only a remote possibility of doubt, then everyone would always have to be under restriction. Without evil, you could not have Universal Salvation.

If this anointed cherub really loved God, and could only serve God's best interests, there was only one course of action he could take. Since it was in God's interests to create people, and give them all eternal life with freewill, the greatest thing that he could do for God would be to take on evil, and become the greatest resister possible. It would be a sacrifice, and he would have to lose his own life.

But as John 15:13 says, "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends."

Jesus was going to lay down His life in sacrifice. And, since the wages of sin is death, as a sinner this anointed cherub of God would have to lose his life too. Both Jesus and God's anointed cherub were about to sacrifice their lives, so that everyone, including themselves, could have eternal life with freewill.

Ezekiel 28:15: "You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you."

"You were perfect in your ways…" And he was, because he was programmed with the nature, or character, of God. But as with the Holy Spirit, that does not mean that he was perfect; because of his being restricted, he did not have free will.

Verse 15, continued: "…Till iniquity was found in you."

In English, that makes it sound as if iniquity were simply found in this anointed cherub.

"Oh, look, Father, we have just found that your anointed cherub is unrighteous. What shall we do?"

And that is not so. The verb "was found" is in niphal perfect, and in niphal, "to be found" means "to be present."

He was the exactness of God, by nature, until iniquity was present; and there is no indication whatsoever that this iniquity was present due to himself. In fact, quite the opposite. The verb is in the passive voice; indicating that it was present due to other means, rather than himself.

The only conclusion that you can come to, is that if God's anointed cherub, who was the exactness of God Himself, could not sin by restriction, then for him to be able to sin, the restriction would have to be removed. And since what was necessary was the worst evil possible, the exactness of God would have to be changed to the exact opposite of God. But, once again, with restriction.

This anointed cherub was exactly like God in nature, until the exact opposite nature was installed by someone else; making him now a Satan, and resister of God, but controlled. That is why he has no option but to go through with the prophecy we have been speaking about.

Even though he is the worst evil possible, and since being programmed with evil, he can not do good, there are still rules of engagement that he can not break. It is impossible for him to change God's plans, which, as we have seen, would be easy. He even needs, at times, permission from God to do things. Does this sound like someone out of control? If Satan were not restricted, and had total freewill, there is no way that God could win - which would be down to God for allowing a situation that was not under control. Therefore, Satan being under control is a foregone conclusion, on the basis that God is not a God of disorder.

God created evil because it was necessary, as part of a perfect plan. He did it in such a way that it was not only the worst evil possible, but at the same time, was totally under control. Evil is part of the education necessary to give everyone free will. And once everyone is perfect, evil will never be a part of our lives again. It will take us to where we are going. But once we are there, it will have done its job, and will be a thing of the past.

Like Jesus, Satan has sacrificed his life, as part of a team which makes it possible for God to take everyone up to Universal Salvation. He is only looking after God's interests; which is what he was anointed to do in the first place. Do you really think that God will abandon him?

Whatever Satan has done, he has done out of love and faithfulness for his God. Which, in turn, means that he has also done it for all of us.

Satan is part of a team which is responsible for Universal Salvation. And Universal Salvation includes himself. Do you know what that means? It means that, like Cinderella, one day Satan will go to the Ball. The difference being, that Cinderella is a fairy story; Universal Salvation is reality.

"But does not the Bible say somewhere that Satan was a murderer from the beginning?"

Yes, it does.

Be sure to read "Universal Salvation! Satan Part Two".
It is well with my soul.

Offline misszoolander

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2012, 11:07:43 PM »
Just to recap the last two paragraphs:

"But does not the Bible say somewhere that Satan was a murderer from the beginning?"

Yes, it does.

John 8:44 says this: "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."

And everyone believes that it is speaking of Satan being a murderer and a liar from the beginning of his life. And that can not be so. We have already seen that when Satan was created, he was without sin, until sin was programmed into him.

At Isaiah 14:12-15, there seems to be another parallel, this time between Satan and the king of Babylon. Once again, it becomes obvious that some of the things it says typify Satan.

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit."

Verse 12, although speaking of the king of Babylon, also superimposes God's plan for His anointed cherub who became Satan: "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!"

The one who became Satan is here referred to as Lucifer, which is simply a noun meaning brightness. He was once in the light, which is hardly surprising because 1 John 1:5 says: "…God is light and in Him is no darkness at all."

Therefore since the one who became Satan was sealed with the same exactness of God to start with, there could not have been any darkness in him either. Showing that Satan was not a murderer and a liar from the beginning of his life.

John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible, has this to say about John 8:44: "He was a murderer - In inclination, from the beginning - Of his becoming a devil; and abode not in the truth - Commencing murderer and liar at the same time. And certainly he was a killer of men (as the Greek word properly signifies) from the beginning of the world: for from the very creation he designed and contrived the ruin of men."

At Romans 8:20, Paul took it further than John Wesley, when he said: "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope."

This goes way beyond the beginning of the world. It is saying, among other things, that at sometime all creation was subjected to futility; meaning that everything that had been created, was subjected (no choice) to conditions contrary to perfection, including Satan. Conditions that, in themselves, could lead to nowhere.

For everyone to fully understand righteousness, and that God is righteous, evil had to be introduced into the picture. It was information necessary for everyone to have a complete understanding and freewill.

So when John 8:44 says of Satan: "…He was a murderer from the beginning…" it is speaking of the time that evil was programmed into God's anointed cherub, and his beginning as a resister of God.

Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Now according to what we have been saying, all of God's creation would have to be subjected to futility; and the literal heavens and the earth would be no exception.

Isaiah 45:18 tells us something important about God creating the earth. It says: "…Who did not create it in vain…"

And the Hebrew word there for "in vain" is tohu, meaning a waste, a place of chaos.

The Amplified Version translates Isaiah 45:18: "…And created it not a worthless waste…" This verse tells us that when the earth was created, it was not created a worthless waste and in chaos. And straightaway, that brings a problem.

Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." But verse 2 tells us: "The earth was without form (tohu) and void…"

The Amplified Version translates it like this: "The earth was without form and an empty waste…"

What on earth happened between verse one and verse two, to make the earth a worthless waste, when God specifically tells us that it was not created that way?

What happened was, (all of) creation was subjected to futility, as Paul said. Satan was programmed to be evil, quickly destroying God's beautiful universe and planet earth so that the earth would not sustain any life on it. What we see in Genesis is a recreation of the earth, but not to the standards that it originally was.

Do you think that our Creator could not create the universe in order, where asteroids do not crash into other planets? That is total chaos. Any one of us could get killed at any time. To create order would only be a simple matter of mathematics to God and His team.

Everything that God created, Satan, being the exact opposite, would try to undo in an attempt to stop God's plans. What God is really showing all of us is that there is nothing that Satan can do, as the ultimate evil, that is permanent. His efforts, while seemingly successful, are all very limited.

Satan himself is very limited, because he is not perfect. When imperfection comes up against perfection, any plan of action must be doomed to failure on the basis that imperfection is incomplete, and therefore must be limited. Whereas any plan under perfection must succeed, because it is perfectly complete and therefore not limited. Evil can have no success against righteousness. The only success that evil can have, is not when it goes up against righteousness, but when it works together with righteousness as part of a perfect plan. It is successful inasmuch as it is one of the links that will take everyone from imperfection to perfection. Evil was never designed to defeat righteousness. It was designed so that imperfect people could obtain a full understanding of truth, and thereby be taken up to perfection.

God could not create people incorruptible in the first place, because full understanding was not available to give them. Sin, in the first instance without proof, was only theory. If it is theoretical, it is speculative; and speculation can bring doubt. God could not afford to leave any question unanswered. All He had to do was to bring the proof of what sin does into the picture, and then simply upgrade peoples' understanding at a later date.

"Yes, but can He upgrade everyone's understanding, just like that?"

He can. He did it at Babel. One minute, everyone spoke the same language, and the next minute, they all spoke different languages. God had instantaneously educated them with another language. He took just one tiny area, and upgraded their minds. He also deleted instantaneously the language that they had spoken from birth.

So now we have, on the one side, Satan, who had already virtually destroyed God's beautiful creation, and, as the Bible shows, is associated with darkness. And on the other side, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, who are associated with light. So when the time came for God to create human beings upon the earth, all three were in position to do their respective jobs.

The plan is superimposed upon the account of the physical creation.

Genesis 1:2 says: "The earth was without form and void…" in other words, it was a chaotic mess.

Verse 2 continues: "…and darkness was on the face of the deep…" Satan was there, waiting to destroy God's recreation.

Verse 2 continues, "…And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." The Holy Spirit was also there.

Genesis 1:3 says: "Then God said, 'let there be light'; and there was light."

There certainly was. The Light of the world, Jesus, was there. Whereas Satan was allowed to destroy God's original creation, because it was deliberately subjected to futility, this time Jesus and the Holy Spirit were there to make sure that he did not destroy it again. In fact, God's plan was for everyone created to have eternal life with freewill. It was a perfect plan, and no one would be able to stop it from being completed. Satan's response to God's perfect plan could only bring a limited and incomplete response, as Satan himself was imperfect, limited and incomplete.

God's perfect plan had everything. It had Jesus as the Word of God. It had Jesus as the Light of the world. It had Jesus as the Saviour of the world. It had the Holy Spirit with the power, to make sure everything got done. And it had God's anointed cherub programmed to be a Satan and the worst evil possible. The only outcome possible was total success. Perfection versus limitation can have only one result.

God chose to recreate the heavens and the earth again, starting with the earth. And from within a tiny paradise, the garden of Eden, man was created. Since man had to be subjected to futility, it was inevitable that he would sin and bring death upon all of mankind. Which was one of the links that would guarantee perfection for every created being. It was all part of the plan.

Truly, God, working through Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Satan, had our best interests at heart. What a team. At present, certain ones are being called to be a part of that team. These are the ones who will sit on thrones and rule with Jesus in the millennium. They are the ones who will be in the first resurrection. Not many attain to this calling. Are you being called to join the team?

Can you hear it yet? Can you hear the voice of inevitability? Universal Salvation! It is coming. Has God put it into your hearts and minds yet? It is the greatest message on earth today. And what a message!

Yes, but then, what a God.

Be sure to read next month's blockbuster (it's going to be a good one), "Universal Salvation! Satan Part Three".
It is well with my soul.

Offline misszoolander

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2012, 11:08:19 PM »
While Jesus was on the earth, He told us that something very special was going to take place at the end of the age. If it is special, it is something that we should all take notice of. At Matthew 24:14, Jesus said this: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

This is a message to the earth from the Heavenly team; imagine that! And we are living at a time when it is vital to listen to that message, because we are near the end of this age. Since the word for "gospel" means good news, this is a message of good news.

If the message were to say, "Some of you are going to be tormented in hellfire, for ever and ever", that would not be good news for some. In fact, it would be bad news.

If the message were to say, "Some of you are going to have eternal death", that would not be good news for some. Once again, it would be bad news.

The only message that would be good news for everyone would be Universal Salvation, eternal life for all with freewill, and every facility that would make it perfect. In other words, perfection for everyone. That would be good news.

As far as Satan is concerned, the good news of Universal Salvation is the last thing that he wants to come out. At Revelation 12:9, it says of Satan: "…who deceives the whole world…" Satan is going to use every trick in the book to keep the whole world deceived. So his intentions can only be to hide the message of Universal Salvation. This is to be a huge operation worldwide. Satan will involve millions of people in deceiving others.

Matthew chapter 24:24 is just one of many scriptures which tell us how Satan will continue to deceive the whole world. It says there: "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." That is no small task. Satan is going to have his own army of ministers worldwide, to hide the good news of Universal Salvation.

"But how is Satan going to hide God's message of Universal Salvation?"

How he has always done it: by deceit. One of the ways in which he will mislead people is to get his ministers to teach an incorrect message of Universal Salvation, similar to God's message of Universal Salvation, and throw everyone into confusion. Which is exactly what is happening at this present time.

"Are there not prophets upon the earth today?"

Yes, there are. False prophets. Let me say that again. "False Prophets", exactly as Jesus said there would be. False prophets are to be expected, in abundance. That is a sign to look out for. Do not miss it; do not be misled. Many are claiming to be prophets of God, when in actual fact, they are not.

"Oh, come on, now. Some of these prophets are healing and doing miracles."

Indeed, they are. Just as Jesus said they would, at Matthew 24:24, "…false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." A tremendous operation by Satan. And these false prophets, with their signs and wonders, are going to increase. Their miracles are going to get harder for people not to believe. Satan will make sure of that; and for a while, the whole world will continue to be deceived. But not the elect.

However, a judgment is soon to come upon the earth. And before it takes place, God will send a real prophet, one authorised by Himself; one who will have the same authorised access to the same power that was available to Jesus. Before access to the power is allowed, this prophet will be tried and tested, and must be completely educated in the correct use of the power. For the first time ever, someone from the earth will have access to the same unlimited power to which Jesus had access. Which means that, as this age is shortly coming to its close, the prophet must be living on the earth today.

Amos 3:7 says: "Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets."

That is the way God has always done things; He has always announced what is about to happen through prophets. God is orderly; He will not have different prophets speaking different things. But Satan will.

The difference between Satan's prophets and God's prophet, is that Satan's prophets will be limited, whereas God's prophet will not be limited. As has already been said, he will have the same authorised access to the same power that Jesus had. In fact, from God's Temple upon the earth, made up of the living elite, greater healings will take place than Jesus ever did. And the healings will not be hit and miss. Whatever God's prophet says, will happen every time.

As we are approaching the end of this age, accept no less than a prophet with unlimited power, who will be able to do anything whenever he wants to. Not just a few healings here and there; that is not good enough. There has to be a credible directional representative of God upon the earth, before the return of Jesus, for people to see, and follow.

But before the authorisation to access the unlimited power comes, the good news of Universal Salvation has to be preached for a witness to all the nations. Note that the good news is preached, at this time, only as a witness to all nations, not to convert them.

Satan, as he is completely under control, will fulfil all the end time prophecies. That is his job. You can count on him to stand between you and the truth. But do not forget one important thing: Satan has sacrificed his life, the same as Jesus has, to obtain Universal Salvation for all of us, including himself. What he is doing is his part in obtaining Universal Salvation.

"If Satan has really sacrificed his life for everyone, the same as Jesus has, tell us where it says that in the Bible."

Let me show you another of God's plans; this time, superimposed upon sacrifices. And at this stage, it would be good for everyone to read the whole of Leviticus chapter 16; the reason being, that in a short article, there is not room to quote and explain the whole chapter, but only parts of it.

Leviticus 16:5-10 tells us this: "5 And he shall take from the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats as a sin offering, and one ram as a burnt offering. 6 Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the LORD's lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness."

Leviticus 16:5: "And he shall take…two kids of the goats as a sin offering…" As in any animal sacrifice to God, all animals had to be without blemish. That was the law. So here, we have two goats without blemish, which were to be for a sin offering. A sin offering is an offering that covers our natural sinful condition, and also unintentional sin; that of sinning in error, including ignorance.

It is interesting to note that both goats are for a sin offering, even though only one is sacrificed by the High Priest; one is left alive. If one could do the job, why have two? In actual fact, no animal sacrifice could successfully take away sins. Hebrews 10:4 says: "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins."

The principle of the sacrifice was alright; it was the blood of animals that was not a sufficient price to take sin away.

In reality, the bottom line is that those literal animal sacrifices could never take people to perfection. The old Law was never designed to do that. It was only a shadow of the good things to come; as Hebrews 10:1 says: "For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect."

What was necessary was a means that would not only atone for sin, but also that would remove it forever.

"So if the law was only a shadow of the good things to come, what were the good things to come?"

Hebrews 9: 11-12 tells us: 11 "But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtain eternal redemption."

Jesus was the sacrifice which redeemed all of mankind on a perpetual basis, and opened the door to perfection.

The difference with Jesus' sacrifice was that it was so powerful that it not only justified the atoning of unintentional sin, it also justified the atoning of intentional sin, guaranteeing everyone a resurrection.

It could do that on the basis that sinning in error or ignorance on the part of the sinner, is due to not having the correct understanding to make the right decision. Remember, we are looking at a perfect law, which must take lack of understanding into account; not to speak of being deceived by Satan, who has been allowed to deceive the whole world.

However, eternal redemption is not the same as Universal Salvation. Eternal redemption gives God the right to resurrect all who are dead at any given time. Universal Salvation takes both man and spirit to a condition where they have never been before; and that is perfection, which means that Universal Salvation is over and above eternal redemption. That is why all those in the general resurrection, after being redeemed, will still be able to sin again. Unlike those in the first and earlier resurrection, who will not be able to sin again, because they have been raised incorruptible.

Leviticus 16:7-9 says: "7 He (Aaron) shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD (YHWH) at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the LORD's lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering."

This was the sin offering which, as a shadow, foretold of a better sacrifice: that of Jesus, who upon His resurrection, in the position of our High Priest, took His own perfect sacrifice through to the Most Holy, and presented it to God.

Casting lots was not left to chance, as God was the Person overseeing it. The Hebrew word for "cast" there, means to give. And the Hebrew word for "lots" basically means stones, which were at times used in casting lots. The implication, here, is that of God giving direction. On the earth, the High Priest did not know which goat had which destiny; therefore he literally cast lots. But in Heaven, looking beyond the shadow to the reality, God did not have to cast lots; He was able to personally give each goat his destiny.

Now, we have seen that one goat represented Jesus. But who was the other goat?

Well, at that time, in Heaven, there were only four people: God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Lucifer (brightness). It was not God, because He was giving the destinies to the two goats, and Jesus was one. The Holy Spirit could not be the other goat, as His destiny was to oversee the power. That left only one other person on the scene who it could be: Lucifer. And remember, at that time he was unblemished too. So although there were, at that time, four unblemished people, only two were in a position to be superimposed over animal sacrifices: Jesus and Lucifer, and both were given their destinies by God. Lucifer, once he became Satan and blemished, would have to be utterly removed. But the fact that his life was going to be taken away from him, was a sacrifice on his part.

Leviticus 16:8 speaks of the second goat as the "scapegoat." The Hebrew word there is azazel, and it has been translated by some to mean an entire removal. That being so, the first goat was for Yahweh to atone for sin, and the second goat was for an entire removal. It is no good just covering sin, or being continually redeemed, only to keep sinning. What was necessary was a complete removal of sin, so that sin would be no more. And this is how a complete removal of sin was to be obtained.

To redeem everyone from death, only Jesus' sacrifice was necessary; it was legal, and it justified the right to resurrect all at any given time. But to remove sin altogether, the High Priest had to sacrifice the life of the second goat in a place of no return, taking with it all sin. This gave Jesus as High Priest the right not only to raise people from the dead, but also to take them to where no man or spirit had ever been before: perfection. Sin could never return, as it had been utterly removed.

Leviticus 16:10 says: "But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness."

Now the blood of the first goat not only justified eternal redemption, but it also justified universal reconciliation; which, also, is not the same as Universal Salvation. All people, in the first instance, at their resurrection will become reconciled to God, because they have been redeemed and atoned for. They will be in the same position that Adam and Eve were in to start with - sinless, but not perfect. Man has to be reconciled to God before perfection can take place. But at this stage, they will still be able to sin again (except, once again, those in the first resurrection) and, therefore, will be able to become unreconciled to God.

What is necessary for Universal Salvation, is for our High Priest to make sure that everyone can never sin again. This is where the second sacrifice comes into play. The first sacrifice covered all sin, including that of Satan and the demons; and was love in action, doing what was in the best interests of others. The second sacrifice was also love in action, because it too, did what was in the best interests of others. It allowed Jesus, as High Priest, to remove sin forever.

Atonement has already been made by the first goat. But while still alive, the second goat is presented before the LORD, to make atonement upon it. Some believe that means that atonement was made for azazel, and some translate it "to atone over."

"But why is that necessary, if the first sacrifice covers all sins?"

It is not necessary. Therefore the second sacrifice can not be to cover sins that have already been covered; it could only be for the right to remove sin altogether. The first goat was to atone for sin. The second goat was so that our High Priest, Jesus, could utterly remove it.

Notice what happens to the second goat when atonement has been made upon it. Leviticus 16:10 tells us: "…and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness."

Leviticus 16:20-22 says this: 20 "And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat. 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness."

Can you see what the High Priest did?

He confessed over it all iniquities, all transgressions, and all sins, which, as Jesus, He had already atoned for. That takes into account everything that constitutes the breaking of God's law, whether unintentional or deliberate. And the goat is sent away into the wilderness. Remember that the second goat, azazel, was for an entire removal, and its cargo was sin. It was carrying away sin forever, to a place of no return.

Here is the point: once Satan had sinned, he would have to lose his life. And the fact that it was a sacrifice meant that it became a legal price, allowing Jesus to utterly remove him from the office of Satan forever, and at the same time, removing the possibility of God allowing sin ever again. In fact, it makes it legally impossible for God to allow sin ever again.

Satan's sacrifice signifies the impossibility of sin returning, ever. Sin started with Satan, and it finished with Satan. He sacrificed his life to show everyone the other side of the coin; and at his death in the lake of fire, the sacrifice of his life made sure that sin could never return.

Jesus paid the price to redeem him, not as Satan, but as God's sinless anointed cherub.

And the two sacrifices together meant Universal Salvation - Perfection for all.

Satan being entirely removed, and sin being entirely removed with him, makes Universal Salvation possible, which was God's plan from the very beginning. That is why we always use capitals for Universal Salvation, because God Himself is Universal Salvation; nothing less. When you are speaking of Universal Salvation, you are speaking of God.

Sin started with Satan, and will end with him when he is cast into the lake of fire, carrying away sin forever. Sin can never return from the lake of fire. Satan was a necessary evil, taken on by God's anointed cherub, who was only doing what he had been anointed to do in the first place. He was protecting God's interests.

"You are saying, then, that sin ends when Satan is cast into the lake of fire, carrying sin away with him, never to return again?"

Yes.

"So what is the lake of fire? And can God really bring all the people in there, out again?"

Be sure to read next month's article, "Universal Salvation! The Lake of Fire Part One."
It is well with my soul.

Offline Paul L

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2012, 11:47:00 PM »
Sometimes I wonder if we get all too caught up in the concept of judging as in sentencing. The JUDGES of Israel LED Israel. I wonder if this judging could have more to do with leading people and angels, etc into the ALLNESS of God.

I looked up the Greek word krino in Strong's, it seems to imply quite strongly that  judging angels will be done in terms that will include punishment, that's a pretty harsh sense of the word. You look it up, tell us what you think in light of the fact that it was the duty of judges in Israel to lead the people, presumably by example. If this is our job description in judging angels, I won't mind it, it would be a lot like raising kids all over again I guess, or training people how to work in my business so we can all make a living working together, both are the greatest pursuits God has ever given me, that's what I want in my future beyond this life, "get evenism" mentality has never been where I'm at.


Offline jabcat

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2012, 12:09:51 AM »
While Jesus was on the earth, He told us that something very special was going to take place at the end of the age. If it is special, it is something that we should all take notice of. At Matthew 24:14, Jesus said this: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

This is a message to the earth from the Heavenly team; imagine that! And we are living at a time when it is vital to listen to that message, because we are near the end of this age. Since the word for "gospel" means good news, this is a message of good news.

If the message were to say, "Some of you are going to be tormented in hellfire, for ever and ever", that would not be good news for some. In fact, it would be bad news.

If the message were to say, "Some of you are going to have eternal death", that would not be good news for some. Once again, it would be bad news.

The only message that would be good news for everyone would be Universal Salvation, eternal life for all with freewill, and every facility that would make it perfect. In other words, perfection for everyone. That would be good news.

As far as Satan is concerned, the good news of Universal Salvation is the last thing that he wants to come out. At Revelation 12:9, it says of Satan: "…who deceives the whole world…" Satan is going to use every trick in the book to keep the whole world deceived. So his intentions can only be to hide the message of Universal Salvation. This is to be a huge operation worldwide. Satan will involve millions of people in deceiving others.

Matthew chapter 24:24 is just one of many scriptures which tell us how Satan will continue to deceive the whole world. It says there: "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." That is no small task. Satan is going to have his own army of ministers worldwide, to hide the good news of Universal Salvation.

"But how is Satan going to hide God's message of Universal Salvation?"

How he has always done it: by deceit. One of the ways in which he will mislead people is to get his ministers to teach an incorrect message of Universal Salvation, similar to God's message of Universal Salvation, and throw everyone into confusion. Which is exactly what is happening at this present time.

"Are there not prophets upon the earth today?"

Yes, there are. False prophets. Let me say that again. "False Prophets", exactly as Jesus said there would be. False prophets are to be expected, in abundance. That is a sign to look out for. Do not miss it; do not be misled. Many are claiming to be prophets of God, when in actual fact, they are not.

"Oh, come on, now. Some of these prophets are healing and doing miracles."

Indeed, they are. Just as Jesus said they would, at Matthew 24:24, "…false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." A tremendous operation by Satan. And these false prophets, with their signs and wonders, are going to increase. Their miracles are going to get harder for people not to believe. Satan will make sure of that; and for a while, the whole world will continue to be deceived. But not the elect.

However, a judgment is soon to come upon the earth. And before it takes place, God will send a real prophet, one authorised by Himself; one who will have the same authorised access to the same power that was available to Jesus. Before access to the power is allowed, this prophet will be tried and tested, and must be completely educated in the correct use of the power. For the first time ever, someone from the earth will have access to the same unlimited power to which Jesus had access. Which means that, as this age is shortly coming to its close, the prophet must be living on the earth today.

Amos 3:7 says: "Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets."

That is the way God has always done things; He has always announced what is about to happen through prophets. God is orderly; He will not have different prophets speaking different things. But Satan will.

The difference between Satan's prophets and God's prophet, is that Satan's prophets will be limited, whereas God's prophet will not be limited. As has already been said, he will have the same authorised access to the same power that Jesus had. In fact, from God's Temple upon the earth, made up of the living elite, greater healings will take place than Jesus ever did. And the healings will not be hit and miss. Whatever God's prophet says, will happen every time.

As we are approaching the end of this age, accept no less than a prophet with unlimited power, who will be able to do anything whenever he wants to. Not just a few healings here and there; that is not good enough. There has to be a credible directional representative of God upon the earth, before the return of Jesus, for people to see, and follow.

But before the authorisation to access the unlimited power comes, the good news of Universal Salvation has to be preached for a witness to all the nations. Note that the good news is preached, at this time, only as a witness to all nations, not to convert them.

Satan, as he is completely under control, will fulfil all the end time prophecies. That is his job. You can count on him to stand between you and the truth. But do not forget one important thing: Satan has sacrificed his life, the same as Jesus has, to obtain Universal Salvation for all of us, including himself. What he is doing is his part in obtaining Universal Salvation.

"If Satan has really sacrificed his life for everyone, the same as Jesus has, tell us where it says that in the Bible."

Let me show you another of God's plans; this time, superimposed upon sacrifices. And at this stage, it would be good for everyone to read the whole of Leviticus chapter 16; the reason being, that in a short article, there is not room to quote and explain the whole chapter, but only parts of it.

Leviticus 16:5-10 tells us this: "5 And he shall take from the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats as a sin offering, and one ram as a burnt offering. 6 Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the LORD's lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness."

Leviticus 16:5: "And he shall take…two kids of the goats as a sin offering…" As in any animal sacrifice to God, all animals had to be without blemish. That was the law. So here, we have two goats without blemish, which were to be for a sin offering. A sin offering is an offering that covers our natural sinful condition, and also unintentional sin; that of sinning in error, including ignorance.

It is interesting to note that both goats are for a sin offering, even though only one is sacrificed by the High Priest; one is left alive. If one could do the job, why have two? In actual fact, no animal sacrifice could successfully take away sins. Hebrews 10:4 says: "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins."

The principle of the sacrifice was alright; it was the blood of animals that was not a sufficient price to take sin away.

In reality, the bottom line is that those literal animal sacrifices could never take people to perfection. The old Law was never designed to do that. It was only a shadow of the good things to come; as Hebrews 10:1 says: "For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect."

What was necessary was a means that would not only atone for sin, but also that would remove it forever.

"So if the law was only a shadow of the good things to come, what were the good things to come?"

Hebrews 9: 11-12 tells us: 11 "But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtain eternal redemption."

Jesus was the sacrifice which redeemed all of mankind on a perpetual basis, and opened the door to perfection.

The difference with Jesus' sacrifice was that it was so powerful that it not only justified the atoning of unintentional sin, it also justified the atoning of intentional sin, guaranteeing everyone a resurrection.

It could do that on the basis that sinning in error or ignorance on the part of the sinner, is due to not having the correct understanding to make the right decision. Remember, we are looking at a perfect law, which must take lack of understanding into account; not to speak of being deceived by Satan, who has been allowed to deceive the whole world.

However, eternal redemption is not the same as Universal Salvation. Eternal redemption gives God the right to resurrect all who are dead at any given time. Universal Salvation takes both man and spirit to a condition where they have never been before; and that is perfection, which means that Universal Salvation is over and above eternal redemption. That is why all those in the general resurrection, after being redeemed, will still be able to sin again. Unlike those in the first and earlier resurrection, who will not be able to sin again, because they have been raised incorruptible.

Leviticus 16:7-9 says: "7 He (Aaron) shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD (YHWH) at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the LORD's lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering."

This was the sin offering which, as a shadow, foretold of a better sacrifice: that of Jesus, who upon His resurrection, in the position of our High Priest, took His own perfect sacrifice through to the Most Holy, and presented it to God.

Casting lots was not left to chance, as God was the Person overseeing it. The Hebrew word for "cast" there, means to give. And the Hebrew word for "lots" basically means stones, which were at times used in casting lots. The implication, here, is that of God giving direction. On the earth, the High Priest did not know which goat had which destiny; therefore he literally cast lots. But in Heaven, looking beyond the shadow to the reality, God did not have to cast lots; He was able to personally give each goat his destiny.

Now, we have seen that one goat represented Jesus. But who was the other goat?

Well, at that time, in Heaven, there were only four people: God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Lucifer (brightness). It was not God, because He was giving the destinies to the two goats, and Jesus was one. The Holy Spirit could not be the other goat, as His destiny was to oversee the power. That left only one other person on the scene who it could be: Lucifer. And remember, at that time he was unblemished too. So although there were, at that time, four unblemished people, only two were in a position to be superimposed over animal sacrifices: Jesus and Lucifer, and both were given their destinies by God. Lucifer, once he became Satan and blemished, would have to be utterly removed. But the fact that his life was going to be taken away from him, was a sacrifice on his part.

Leviticus 16:8 speaks of the second goat as the "scapegoat." The Hebrew word there is azazel, and it has been translated by some to mean an entire removal. That being so, the first goat was for Yahweh to atone for sin, and the second goat was for an entire removal. It is no good just covering sin, or being continually redeemed, only to keep sinning. What was necessary was a complete removal of sin, so that sin would be no more. And this is how a complete removal of sin was to be obtained.

To redeem everyone from death, only Jesus' sacrifice was necessary; it was legal, and it justified the right to resurrect all at any given time. But to remove sin altogether, the High Priest had to sacrifice the life of the second goat in a place of no return, taking with it all sin. This gave Jesus as High Priest the right not only to raise people from the dead, but also to take them to where no man or spirit had ever been before: perfection. Sin could never return, as it had been utterly removed.

Leviticus 16:10 says: "But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness."

Now the blood of the first goat not only justified eternal redemption, but it also justified universal reconciliation; which, also, is not the same as Universal Salvation. All people, in the first instance, at their resurrection will become reconciled to God, because they have been redeemed and atoned for. They will be in the same position that Adam and Eve were in to start with - sinless, but not perfect. Man has to be reconciled to God before perfection can take place. But at this stage, they will still be able to sin again (except, once again, those in the first resurrection) and, therefore, will be able to become unreconciled to God.

What is necessary for Universal Salvation, is for our High Priest to make sure that everyone can never sin again. This is where the second sacrifice comes into play. The first sacrifice covered all sin, including that of Satan and the demons; and was love in action, doing what was in the best interests of others. The second sacrifice was also love in action, because it too, did what was in the best interests of others. It allowed Jesus, as High Priest, to remove sin forever.

Atonement has already been made by the first goat. But while still alive, the second goat is presented before the LORD, to make atonement upon it. Some believe that means that atonement was made for azazel, and some translate it "to atone over."

"But why is that necessary, if the first sacrifice covers all sins?"

It is not necessary. Therefore the second sacrifice can not be to cover sins that have already been covered; it could only be for the right to remove sin altogether. The first goat was to atone for sin. The second goat was so that our High Priest, Jesus, could utterly remove it.

Notice what happens to the second goat when atonement has been made upon it. Leviticus 16:10 tells us: "…and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness."

Leviticus 16:20-22 says this: 20 "And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat. 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness."

Can you see what the High Priest did?

He confessed over it all iniquities, all transgressions, and all sins, which, as Jesus, He had already atoned for. That takes into account everything that constitutes the breaking of God's law, whether unintentional or deliberate. And the goat is sent away into the wilderness. Remember that the second goat, azazel, was for an entire removal, and its cargo was sin. It was carrying away sin forever, to a place of no return.

Here is the point: once Satan had sinned, he would have to lose his life. And the fact that it was a sacrifice meant that it became a legal price, allowing Jesus to utterly remove him from the office of Satan forever, and at the same time, removing the possibility of God allowing sin ever again. In fact, it makes it legally impossible for God to allow sin ever again.

Satan's sacrifice signifies the impossibility of sin returning, ever. Sin started with Satan, and it finished with Satan. He sacrificed his life to show everyone the other side of the coin; and at his death in the lake of fire, the sacrifice of his life made sure that sin could never return.

Jesus paid the price to redeem him, not as Satan, but as God's sinless anointed cherub.

And the two sacrifices together meant Universal Salvation - Perfection for all.

Satan being entirely removed, and sin being entirely removed with him, makes Universal Salvation possible, which was God's plan from the very beginning. That is why we always use capitals for Universal Salvation, because God Himself is Universal Salvation; nothing less. When you are speaking of Universal Salvation, you are speaking of God.

Sin started with Satan, and will end with him when he is cast into the lake of fire, carrying away sin forever. Sin can never return from the lake of fire. Satan was a necessary evil, taken on by God's anointed cherub, who was only doing what he had been anointed to do in the first place. He was protecting God's interests.

"You are saying, then, that sin ends when Satan is cast into the lake of fire, carrying sin away with him, never to return again?"

Yes.

"So what is the lake of fire? And can God really bring all the people in there, out again?"

Be sure to read next month's article, "Universal Salvation! The Lake of Fire Part One."

 

Hi.  Did you write this, or does it need to be credited to someone?  We encourage folks to post personal info "as I understand", "in my opinion" etc., but maybe this originated with another author?  Thanks, blessings!   
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline misszoolander

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2012, 12:22:41 AM »
Hi there,
Sorry i am new LOL  :eek:
No I did not write this, i should have been clearer when I mentioned I copy and pasted this. It is from another author, however I think he makes some good points. Hope it helps to some!

Will remeber the copy and paste rule for a latter discussion  :declare:
It is well with my soul.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2012, 01:08:45 AM »
Sometimes I wonder if we get all too caught up in the concept of judging as in sentencing. The JUDGES of Israel LED Israel. I wonder if this judging could have more to do with leading people and angels, etc into the ALLNESS of God.

I looked up the Greek word krino in Strong's, it seems to imply quite strongly that  judging angels will be done in terms that will include punishment, that's a pretty harsh sense of the word. You look it up, tell us what you think in light of the fact that it was the duty of judges in Israel to lead the people, presumably by example. If this is our job description in judging angels, I won't mind it, it would be a lot like raising kids all over again I guess, or training people how to work in my business so we can all make a living working together, both are the greatest pursuits God has ever given me, that's what I want in my future beyond this life, "get evenism" mentality has never been where I'm at.

I have looked at every use of krino in the scriptures. Krino, kolassis.... these are words that have perhaps been translated according to the theology of the translators- perhaps not, but, in looking at the diverse applications of krino, krisis, diakrino etc. I think there is some room to speculate :o), which is all I am doing.

As I see it tho, the lake of fire is this judgment by/among the saints.....  the false prophet and the beast are to be "punished" (perhaps "corrected" is suitable) in the presence of God and His holy messengers/angels. Remember Paul taught that if a brother is caught in a sin that those who were "spiritual among you" should restore such a one in a spirit of meekness. Jesus taught the "process" of one witness, two witnesses, then "the whole assembly" in dealing with transgressors from within the kingdom. Then we see in revelations, "and I saw thrones and the tribunal was set and I saw the face of the One before whom heaven and earth fled away"- speaking of the removing of veils- and then, "know ye not that ye shall judge angels"- being a discussion about resolving mutually contested disputes before men- not being about "sentencing".

"The word of God is quick and active and sharper than any two edged sword dividing asunder.......for all things are open(nothing is hidden) to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do"(hebrews 4)

"Every hidden thing will be brought to light"- Jesus

"Every thing that is brought to the light becomes light"- Paul(Eph somewhere)

"In that day I will slay Leviathan the twissting fleeing serpent with the sword of my mouth.....In that day SING OF IT A VINEYARD" Isaiah 27

"Every man (pas -all) will be salted with fire and every sacrifice(believers) will be seasoned with salt"- Jesus

"His eyes were as flames of fire"-John

"Every man's works will be tested with fire, for the DAY WILL REVEAL IT" 1 Cor 3

"I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, Depart from me you lawless ones, into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels"- Jesus

I think the lake of fire is symbolic language for immersion of the rebellious in "the fire of God" which is the LIGHT that consumes DARKNESS- which I believe(in the presence of God and His holy messengers) could be some kind of "court" more like an "intervention" where th family of God all shine togehter until the last adversary bows the knee to the wisdom of God in Christ(that the wisdom of God might be made known through the church to the principalities and powers-"the Bride coming down out of heaven, outside are the sorcerers , etc"....."Come let us go unto the mountain of the house of the Lord to behold the beauty of the Lord and learn His ways"....The Spirit and the Bride say Come, let every one who thirsts drink freely......

Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—  not by works, so that no one can boast.  For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

The ministry of reconciliation will extend into the ages to come and the warfare will be fought in the spirit of reconciliation- not saying that there is no punishment, just saying that it will be way more "educational correction" than what we see out of fundamentalistic reading and interpretation of English translations. The "hidden wisdom" Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 2 is that Christ "disarmed the pricipalities and powers thourgh the cross making an open display of His triumph". The victory was that He laid down His life ot forgive, to redeem, to reconcile, to restore ALL- and that is the victory of the OVERCOMERS who, as Messiah says, "will sit with me on the Father's throne", and "inherit all things".

"katakrino" is the one that seems to be about "sentencing" or "rendering a judgment" and I like this use of it.

Who is he that condemns(katakrino)? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.


I am presenting all this as food for thought , not as some new systematic theology- but I think it is within the circles of the target somewhere, or I wouldnt share it :o)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 01:24:09 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2012, 01:35:44 AM »
eilikrinés: judged by sunlight, unalloyed, pure from heile and krino(tested)
Original Word: εἰλικρινής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eilikrinés
Phonetic Spelling: (i-lik-ree-nace')
Short Definition: pure, uncontaminated, sincere
Definition: (originally: unmixed), pure, uncontaminated, sincere.

"Know you not that we shall judge(krino) angels"?

krinó: to judge, decide
Original Word: κρίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: krinó
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-no)
Short Definition: I judge, decide, think good
Definition: (a) I judge, whether in a law-court or privately: sometimes with cognate nouns emphasizing the notion of the verb, I decide, I think (it) good.

Here I think the word judge is about making accurate discernments of things, since the object of the example was disputes at law between brothers-i. e. testing, which holds up alright with the stuff I posted above (I Think It Good ;o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline Paul L

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2012, 03:06:58 AM »
Sometimes I wonder if we get all too caught up in the concept of judging as in sentencing. The JUDGES of Israel LED Israel. I wonder if this judging could have more to do with leading people and angels, etc into the ALLNESS of God.

I looked up the Greek word krino in Strong's, it seems to imply quite strongly that  judging angels will be done in terms that will include punishment, that's a pretty harsh sense of the word. You look it up, tell us what you think in light of the fact that it was the duty of judges in Israel to lead the people, presumably by example. If this is our job description in judging angels, I won't mind it, it would be a lot like raising kids all over again I guess, or training people how to work in my business so we can all make a living working together, both are the greatest pursuits God has ever given me, that's what I want in my future beyond this life, "get evenism" mentality has never been where I'm at.

I have looked at every use of krino in the scriptures. Krino, kolassis.... these are words that have perhaps been translated according to the theology of the translators- perhaps not, but, in looking at the diverse applications of krino, krisis, diakrino etc. I think there is some room to speculate :o), which is all I am doing.

As I see it tho, the lake of fire is this judgment by/among the saints.....  the false prophet and the beast are to be "punished" (perhaps "corrected" is suitable) in the presence of God and His holy messengers/angels. Remember Paul taught that if a brother is caught in a sin that those who were "spiritual among you" should restore such a one in a spirit of meekness. Jesus taught the "process" of one witness, two witnesses, then "the whole assembly" in dealing with transgressors from within the kingdom. Then we see in revelations, "and I saw thrones and the tribunal was set and I saw the face of the One before whom heaven and earth fled away"- speaking of the removing of veils- and then, "know ye not that ye shall judge angels"- being a discussion about resolving mutually contested disputes before men- not being about "sentencing".

"The word of God is quick and active and sharper than any two edged sword dividing asunder.......for all things are open(nothing is hidden) to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do"(hebrews 4)

"Every hidden thing will be brought to light"- Jesus

"Every thing that is brought to the light becomes light"- Paul(Eph somewhere)

"In that day I will slay Leviathan the twissting fleeing serpent with the sword of my mouth.....In that day SING OF IT A VINEYARD" Isaiah 27

"Every man (pas -all) will be salted with fire and every sacrifice(believers) will be seasoned with salt"- Jesus

"His eyes were as flames of fire"-John

"Every man's works will be tested with fire, for the DAY WILL REVEAL IT" 1 Cor 3

"I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, Depart from me you lawless ones, into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels"- Jesus

I think the lake of fire is symbolic language for immersion of the rebellious in "the fire of God" which is the LIGHT that consumes DARKNESS- which I believe(in the presence of God and His holy messengers) could be some kind of "court" more like an "intervention" where th family of God all shine togehter until the last adversary bows the knee to the wisdom of God in Christ(that the wisdom of God might be made known through the church to the principalities and powers-"the Bride coming down out of heaven, outside are the sorcerers , etc"....."Come let us go unto the mountain of the house of the Lord to behold the beauty of the Lord and learn His ways"....The Spirit and the Bride say Come, let every one who thirsts drink freely......

Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—  not by works, so that no one can boast.  For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

The ministry of reconciliation will extend into the ages to come and the warfare will be fought in the spirit of reconciliation- not saying that there is no punishment, just saying that it will be way more "educational correction" than what we see out of fundamentalistic reading and interpretation of English translations. The "hidden wisdom" Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 2 is that Christ "disarmed the pricipalities and powers thourgh the cross making an open display of His triumph". The victory was that He laid down His life ot forgive, to redeem, to reconcile, to restore ALL- and that is the victory of the OVERCOMERS who, as Messiah says, "will sit with me on the Father's throne", and "inherit all things".

"katakrino" is the one that seems to be about "sentencing" or "rendering a judgment" and I like this use of it.

Who is he that condemns(katakrino)? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.


I am presenting all this as food for thought , not as some new systematic theology- but I think it is within the circles of the target somewhere, or I wouldnt share it :o)

The points of so many of the scriptural texts you quoted above are probably already applied by every sincerely spirit filled believer, and many of them don't consciously realize they practice the concepts, they do them because it just seems like the right thing to do.

The greatest beauty I see in all of Paul's epistles are always encouraging ........encouraging........encouraging, because he could see as as he penned the words of Eph 2:7, that there are numerous ages yet future where some seed of kindness we plant in this age will take root & blossom in an age beyond anything we can presently imagine.

In your bringing up the uses of punishment, I wonder if there are not degrees of it as applied to fallen angels we will judge. I mean by this that Christ will handle the most extreme forms of judging (Satan), and the less experienced ones of us who are his brothers & sisters will operate within a kinder gentler job training program with the lesser rebellious hosts Satan bamboozled into following him. Maybe the rebellious hosts presently following Satan are not all equally culpable, I don't know, just throwing things out there, but with all those ages to come it certainly leaves me feeling encouraged even as I see discouraging times ahead for planet earth that oftentimes leaves me feeling sick.





Offline Paul L

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2012, 03:22:54 AM »
Quote
author=eaglesway link=topic=10791.msg146188#msg146188 date=1355441744]
eilikrinés: judged by sunlight, unalloyed, pure from heile and krino(tested)
Original Word: εἰλικρινής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eilikrinés
Phonetic Spelling: (i-lik-ree-nace')
Short Definition: pure, uncontaminated, sincere
Definition: (originally: unmixed), pure, uncontaminated, sincere.

"Know you not that we shall judge(krino) angels"?

krinó: to judge, decide
Original Word: κρίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: krinó
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-no)
Short Definition: I judge, decide, think good
Definition: (a) I judge, whether in a law-court or privately: sometimes with cognate nouns emphasizing the notion of the verb, I decide, I think (it) good.

Here I think the word judge is about making accurate discernments of things, since the object of the example was disputes at law between brothers-i. e. testing, which holds up alright with the stuff I posted above (I Think It Good ;o)

I mused over the same idea as I was studying the word in Strong's, deeply wondering if judging could not also carry some concept of simply thrashing out differences of opinions about some things.

Offline jabcat

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Re: wicked angels saved?
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2012, 03:57:16 AM »
Hi there,
Sorry i am new LOL  :eek:
No I did not write this, i should have been clearer when I mentioned I copy and pasted this. It is from another author, however I think he makes some good points. Hope it helps to some!

Will remeber the copy and paste rule for a latter discussion  :declare:

I understand.   :bigGrin:  Some author might get their nose out of joint haha.

We all learn as we go..thanks!   :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23