Why the lightning rods?

[Travis]

I'll keep this as brief as possible and if I can get a few responses I'll be glad to answer any questions in return.

Brief history: I was born into and raised as a Jehovahs Witness so needless to say I'm naturally a little confused. Never having been ok with the conventional beliefs of hell, I haven't been able to grasp modern day Christianity. Then I found the tentmaker site. I found renewed hope that there might be a "loving God."

So I read several of the articles on Tentmaker and listen to the audio messages. Still feeling ok with the whole thing. Then, I watch the video on faith only to find myself feeling hopeless and discouraged again. So I'm going to be honest here and hope I get some feedback. My intention is to voice my feelings on this and not to insult or hurt anyone. Simply put, when I see people singing/praying with their hands in the air, it creeps me out. All the trance-like poses and flailing about just doesn't sit right for some reason. To me, it's no different than watching Jews bounce back and forth while reading prayers at the wailing wall or Muslims kneeling in unison on the floor of a mosque. To me, it just seems like an outward expression meant to compinsate for the lack of inward feeling.

Feel free to correct me. I'm posting this because I really want some peace about this conflict within me.

[martincisneros]

Christianity was never meant to be an inward feeling.  Inward feelings are usually just gas.  It was meant to be a living reality and a very powerful relationship with the Holy Spirit where every single day is lived totally transformed into Jesus Christ.  The only proof of Christianity is that living, vibrant relationship with the Holy Spirit.  He's got to be more real in your daily life than anyone else on the entire planet.  Hands are to be raised without wrath and doubting, tongues and interpretation of tongues are not to be refused in our midst, and the Bible says to clap your hands and shout unto God with a voice of triumph.  If we can't obey these simple basics, then how can we obey Him when it comes to healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons from those that haven't honored their father, and brought about the greatest wealth transfer in human history as every prophecy of the wealth of the wicked having been laid up for the just is finally realized with God's intent of establishing the Covenant in the earth and discipling all nations everywhere?  Christianity IS THE supernatural!!

[sven]

I've always appreciated to talk with (former) JW, they prevented me from becoming Muslim

So I'm going to be honest here and hope I get some feedback. My intention is to voice my feelings on this and not to insult or hurt anyone. Simply put, when I see people singing/praying with their hands in the air, it creeps me out. All the trance-like poses and flailing about just doesn't sit right for some reason.

I think I know what you mean, but such behaviour is not common among all Christians, I grew up Lutheran/Evangelical, and such things are uncommon there.

For me it appears strange as well.

[Beloved Servant]

Many people pray with their 5 senses and emotions; and not the Spirit.

I know the scriptures say forsake not the gathering.

But when I pray, I do like Jesus said to: Go in your closet.

[onlytruth]

hi travis...
my connection to jw is through my fatherinlaw(passed away).His parents were the originators at the beginning,lot of stories there!
But in relation to worshipping with your body(hands) its what you feel led to do.David danced naked(don't recommend )hehe.
I grew up in a pious  church...but now when filled with joy I love to dance.
Once i was in the back of a church,the worship music(and leader)were awesome.I felt led to move in a certain way(more swaying down low and up again),it was so light I just wanted to stay there!After a lady came up to me and said the angels were moving with me.that was cool!
God will lead you...being still and quiet is awesome too!
blessings

[Redlettervoice]

I'll keep this as brief as possible and if I can get a few responses I'll be glad to answer any questions in return.

Brief history: I was born into and raised as a Jehovahs Witness so needless to say I'm naturally a little confused. Never having been ok with the conventional beliefs of hell, I haven't been able to grasp modern day Christianity. Then I found the tentmaker site. I found renewed hope that there might be a "loving God."

So I read several of the articles on Tentmaker and listen to the audio messages. Still feeling ok with the whole thing. Then, I watch the video on faith only to find myself feeling hopeless and discouraged again. So I'm going to be honest here and hope I get some feedback. My intention is to voice my feelings on this and not to insult or hurt anyone. Simply put, when I see people singing/praying with their hands in the air, it creeps me out. All the trance-like poses and flailing about just doesn't sit right for some reason. To me, it's no different than watching Jews bounce back and forth while reading prayers at the wailing wall or Muslims kneeling in unison on the floor of a mosque. To me, it just seems like an outward expression meant to compinsate for the lack of inward feeling.

Feel free to correct me. I'm posting this because I really want some peace about this conflict within me.

Everything is "beautiful" in its own time. 

There is a "time" to dance, a "time" to refrain from dancing.

Some of the most "spiritual" people that I have ever known in
my life are "quiet" ........they do NOT jump! ha  And neither do I
"anymore!!!" Have to be young for that stuff, tho I have jumped
as much as any. . the Lord leads me now to quiet meditation.
Is there any reason He would not?  "Be still, and know that "I" am
God!"  I have seen God move more in the quiet than in the jumping.
God looks at the heart about such things.  Do not judge YOUR
worship by other people's .........do what feels comfortable to YOU.
Why should "any of us" tell YOU what to do when the HOLY Spirit
is in you to do as He wills?

One thing this Christian walk is, it is not dull.  At least not for a while, ha
Solomon said "it is a sore travail that God has given to the sons of
men to be exercised therewith."  I just love that statement.  Every time
I say it, I think of stuff like what you wrote. 

Sing and make melody in your heart.  Be like the little boy who prayed
for his lunch, and he did it silently, then someone asked him "What
did you say? I didn't hear a word."  And he replied, "I wasn't talking to
you!" ha

Let not your heart be troubled.  There's a lot more to figure out that
this! ha

[sheila]

 Hey Travis

  I was a jw too!.

    Follow the Holy spirit,don't get 'sucked in" by a mere

   imitation spirit..there are many false-Christs[annointed.]

  out there....and they'd love nothing better than to stand

  between you and God and Lord it over you.

  Be cautious as a serpent,yet innocent as a dove

                           Sheila

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'll keep this as brief as possible and if I can get a few responses I'll be glad to answer any questions in return.

Brief history: I was born into and raised as a Jehovahs Witness so needless to say I'm naturally a little confused. Never having been ok with the conventional beliefs of hell, I haven't been able to grasp modern day Christianity. Then I found the tentmaker site. I found renewed hope that there might be a "loving God."

So I read several of the articles on Tentmaker and listen to the audio messages. Still feeling ok with the whole thing. Then, I watch the video on faith only to find myself feeling hopeless and discouraged again. So I'm going to be honest here and hope I get some feedback. My intention is to voice my feelings on this and not to insult or hurt anyone. Simply put, when I see people singing/praying with their hands in the air, it creeps me out. All the trance-like poses and flailing about just doesn't sit right for some reason. To me, it's no different than watching Jews bounce back and forth while reading prayers at the wailing wall or Muslims kneeling in unison on the floor of a mosque. To me, it just seems like an outward expression meant to compinsate for the lack of inward feeling.

Feel free to correct me. I'm posting this because I really want some peace about this conflict within me.

Hi Travis,  you are heading towards a more spiritual avenue that you might think.   There is nothing wrong with doing all of the the things that God desires when it comes to dancing or clapping or any of that. It is our heart while we do things that is key.

The creeped out feeling you get when observing "others" in a group is the spiritual nature of all the pretenders.   They pretend to do all of that out of physical duty trying to earn Gods pleasure because without realizing it, thats what being religious is.  That feeling is not meant to be manipulated to try to single anyone out, it is simply your spiritual awareness that has not been corrupted by a group yet.   We are not to worship Christianity we are to be about our fathers business.  Tentmaker just like any place, may not have all the truth, but I have seen that the intention is to help understand all mankind and their journey and struggles and to promote a God that loves them and will not allow them to perish.

Just as Redlettervoice points out, there can be a time for all of that and a time not too, the rituals of doing it at certain times at certain places is mans doctrine.   Jesus proves this by healing when tradition and rituals says that he was wrong.
 
Know that you are unique and your walk eventually will include all of those things that creep you out, but when you are doing them out of true love and devotion they will be at the right time and the right place and that feeling will not be present.

[Tim B]

I'll keep this as brief as possible and if I can get a few responses I'll be glad to answer any questions in return.

Brief history: I was born into and raised as a Jehovahs Witness so needless to say I'm naturally a little confused. Never having been ok with the conventional beliefs of hell, I haven't been able to grasp modern day Christianity. Then I found the tentmaker site. I found renewed hope that there might be a "loving God."

So I read several of the articles on Tentmaker and listen to the audio messages. Still feeling ok with the whole thing. Then, I watch the video on faith only to find myself feeling hopeless and discouraged again. So I'm going to be honest here and hope I get some feedback. My intention is to voice my feelings on this and not to insult or hurt anyone. Simply put, when I see people singing/praying with their hands in the air, it creeps me out. All the trance-like poses and flailing about just doesn't sit right for some reason. To me, it's no different than watching Jews bounce back and forth while reading prayers at the wailing wall or Muslims kneeling in unison on the floor of a mosque. To me, it just seems like an outward expression meant to compinsate for the lack of inward feeling.

Feel free to correct me. I'm posting this because I really want some peace about this conflict within me.

I know of a lot of believers that raise their hands in worship, as well as those that fall asleep during worship. lol I think it's a personal thing for each person; some like to raise their hands, some don't, and some don't even pay attention. In fact, to tell you the truth, I've come to the point where I don't even see "worship" as necessary, that is, to say, I don't just turn on and listen to much worship music and then worship whilst its playing. I also don't go to church. I feel if I worship, let it be through my actions, not through listening to "worship" music and raising my hands and what not. Plus, feeling that God is a personal being, I don't think I, myself, would want people "praising" me. Sure, I like getting complimented, but I don't want to be worshipped. I like to treat God more like a personal friend, rather than someone to bow down to and worship (not saying that I wouldn't out of respect, if, you know, He was to show up right in front of me. Like if the President was to come up to me I'd salute and shake his hand!) Don't get me wrong. If people like worshipping in the traditional sense, then go right ahead! But for me, it just doesn't work.

I'd just pray about it man, and anything in worship that doesn't "feel right," might just be due to you being used to something else. However, I don't know everything, so praying is always good. 

[reFORMer]

I went to a place where specially the children would dance in a circle up front as all praised God with singing.  Only it went on for hours.  I knew it was right to praise God, but I wasn't ready to keep it up so long.  Sometimes certain people would bow low and wave their arms.  Now understand, I was raised in what people call "Pentecostal" churches.  We sometimes danced in the meetings.  My grandad started a number of churches in the midwest.  In some meetings in the 1930's a sister with her eyes closed and hands raised worshiping God danced off the platform and continued dancing several feet up in the air for a while til she danced back onto the platform.  Yet I felt strange, repulsed actually, by all the cries and waving and such at this place.  I resisted this tendency in my mind, telling myself, "You don't know what's happening on the inside of them.  You don't know what experience they're having that makes them act like that."  It was a knock-down drag-out fight against this revulsion.  The word they shared was centered on Jesus, not how to have a better life in Adam; so, I decided to give them two months trial of my being there.  About the fifth time there I experienced an opening out of the presence of God revealed beyond what I had previously known.  There was such an awesomeness about His appearing.  So much could be told of about six and a half years with that group.  Regarding the manifestation of the power of God my life is changed.  They don't meet much together anymore, though I keep touch with many of them.  One of my criteria for a good church is if they act funny.  When we draw close to God He draws close to us.  Do you think He'll let us keep our carefully cultivated carnal arrogance we call dignity?

Certain meetings I attended several years ago God didn't reveal much of the inward reality of the reactions I witnessed in those attending until the end of the several days scheduled.  I remember saying to myself about how many were acting, "Just not the jerks."  Somehow I thought whatever behavior I acquired because of spiritual realities surrounding me, all of it was acceptable, just not those demeaning jerks of some of their bodies.  Wouldn't you know it!  I got the jerk thing.  Whether an angel touches me or God somehow removes something of my capacity to endure His presence for a moment, my body jerks.  Well, you don't know what's happening to me.  So don't look at me with a jaundiced eye if I act funny to you.  I've entered into the presence of God in some humiliating way and it's so wonderful!  I just can't help losing control of myself in His powerful presence!  I've had to accept, "If I fall down, I fall down.  That's all.  I just want this wonder of His overwhelming presence more than life."

Let me add this:  there was the sound of a mighty rushing wind, yet there was no wind.  The people trying to get up the aisle were bent over it was so difficult and their clothes were plastered against them and flapping behind them, but there was no wind.  I have seen this.  Do you think people are going to act the same as usual in such an environment?  They accused the disciples of being drunk on the day of Pentecost.  There are some in personal relationship with God that have something of the Spirit of God so important for us to obtain we need to set aside certain doctrines they may be wrong about.  We usually can't change their view of prophecy (I speak from experience) and most of them we can't get to listen to why God will have all men to be saved.  I'd so like them to be aware of meeting under the headship of Jesus Christ, every member participating, too.  But you don't have to make it a barrier.  Just get over yourself.  If you hear the Fire is falling on some humble folk that claim Jesus' name and they're acting funny, maybe they have something you need.

[Cardinal]

  Amen reformer. I didn't want to lift my hands at first, either. Then I read that we are to lift up holy hands unto the Lord; we may not realize it, but it is a spirit of rebellion in our flesh that is offended by this. I had to take authority over it in myself for this very reason.

After that was dealt with, one time when I raised my hands in worship in church, and kept praising Him, I saw in the Spirit, literal chains break off my arms, and a spirit of liberty in His Spirit erupted within me.

See, prisoners don't have much freedom to do anything; they are held in chains until the master wants to use them for labor. So it is with the mastery of sin over us. Open hands also signify, "empty", of the works of the flesh.

I once saw a girl dancing in the Spirit with her eyes closed, and she literally came within an inch of hitting a pew more than once, and deftly missed it, swirling around like the most graceful ballerina you ever saw. When He was done with her she sort of folded up like a butterfly and lay down on the floor. It was the most beautiful dance I had ever seen, and made the dances of the flesh a revulsion for me. Blessings....

[martincisneros]

But when I pray, I do like Jesus said to: Go in your closet.

So, you use a prayer shawl??  Cool!!  Jewish colloquiel (sp?) for prayer shawl wrapped around the head when it comes to "pray in your closet."  There is no other form of "pray in your closet" that the Bible acknowledges.  Prayer shawl has these strands at the bottom that stand for the 613 commandments of God, whether you're talking about the 613 commandments in Moses, the 613 commandments in Jesus, or the 613 commandments in St. Paul, whom I guess the Messianic Jews would call "Ravi Shaul."  Hard to get a prayer shawl that sticks with the Bible and has blue instead of black in it's design.  The black coloring in most of them these days goes back to tradition that began with the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.

[martincisneros]

Oh, I've seen the anointing more than once hit the speaker on the platform during prayer or worship and they'd dance with their eyes shut around on the platform and wander off the platform in mid-air several feet and then dance their way back to the platform and do this multiple times and then when they'd wander back to the platform and open their eyes, they were none the wiser about what had happened until someone told them that God's "all grace" had abounded in that way in the defense and confirmation of the Gospel as well as the comfort of the saints.  God has been restoring David's fallen Tabernacle for quite a while -- over the last 130 years or so!  I've heard several similar testimonies about all of the other revivals that have gone on the last 130 years or so, though I've personally seen it.

[martincisneros]

Weird bug in the system that I wasn't aware of.  Was adding to a previous post and accidentally added what I was saying to this thread.  Weird!!

[Cardinal]

  Love the testimonies, Martin.

I have a prayer shawl from Israel someone I was ministering to one time, felt led to give me. That's the "funny" thing about seeing spiritual applications; it makes you WANT to do some of the literal natural ones but this time it's out of love and not out of law. I have a strong suspicion, that's what He intended all along.  Blessings....

[Raggedy Anne]

I can relate to the queasy feeling when in 'Pentecostal' settings.  I don't go into such meetings anymore (though occasionally I see this sort of thing at UR gatherings). 
I think it is best not to judge.  I prefer to worship God when I am alone with him - not in public.  I also don't like to pray in public.  But many people do pray in public, I suppose.  The scriptures say not to pray or do alms before men.   But also that we are not to judge the thoughts and intents of anyone's heart which, of course, we cannot see.   And the truth is, in times past it is not unusual for me to sing songs to God while wearing my ipod and possibly seeming/sounding foolish in a grocery store because of it.   My husband very much dislikes "tongues and dancing" in churches.  He was raised Methodist and to him it all looks like a big fake show.  It has been ages since I've looked at anything like that on T.V. - I hardly ever think about it.   I don't have a problem with the Jews at the wailing wall or the Catholics praying the rosary.  It is mostly protestant evangelicals who irritate me.

[noname]

I've seen the same trance-like convulsions in people worshipping their ancestors' spirits than those in these kinda gatherings you guys are talking about...after a while a "spirit" takes over their bodies and they go beserk...I'm convinced that "spirit" is not from God

as Beloved Servant said...if you claim to be a follower of Jesus, then do as he did....go to a quiet place and do your praying, praise and worship there (as he said, go into a quiet room and close the door behind you)...never have I read that he went all beserker spinning with arms in the air...but i'm not surprised as christianity the religion inherited a lot of pagan rituals...of which this "praise and worship" madness is one of them...people being entranced and "worked-up" by music and then the madness starts

the israelites worshipping Baal/Marduk did exactly the same things...even driven into such a frenzy that they offered their children to be sacrificed to these idols...and I see a lot of modern day parents offering their childrens' souls to this kinda pagan ritualistic frenzy, only to confuse their young minds to think this is what God wants

the offering and praise and worship God desires is obedience which is returning and multiplying the love He gave us all...no go out there and love your fellow man...stop all this other distracting nonsense I say....

[WhiteWings]

trance-like

Is trance always negative?
It's a state where the mind is pushed to the background.
Combine that with that the mind is/can be the enemy of God then a conclusion can be that it makes way to a more spiritual link.
Just a thought. Never experienced any of it in my life.

[Molly]

How to fight a war--


20And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

 21And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the LORD, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the LORD; for his mercy endureth for ever.

 22And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.

--2 Chron 20




28And they came to Jerusalem with psalteries and harps and trumpets unto the house of the LORD.

 29And the fear of God was on all the kingdoms of those countries, when they had heard that the LORD fought against the enemies of Israel.

 30So the realm of Jehoshaphat was quiet: for his God gave him rest round about.

--2 Chron 20

[Molly]

trance-like

Is trance always negative?
It's a state where the mind is pushed to the background.
Combine that with that the mind is/can be the enemy of God then a conclusion can be that it makes way to a more spiritual link.
Just a thought. Never experienced any of it in my life.

 yep.

[jabcat]

I'll keep this as brief as possible and if I can get a few responses I'll be glad to answer any questions in return.

Brief history: I was born into and raised as a Jehovahs Witness so needless to say I'm naturally a little confused. Never having been ok with the conventional beliefs of hell, I haven't been able to grasp modern day Christianity. Then I found the tentmaker site. I found renewed hope that there might be a "loving God."

So I read several of the articles on Tentmaker and listen to the audio messages. Still feeling ok with the whole thing. Then, I watch the video on faith only to find myself feeling hopeless and discouraged again. So I'm going to be honest here and hope I get some feedback. My intention is to voice my feelings on this and not to insult or hurt anyone. Simply put, when I see people singing/praying with their hands in the air, it creeps me out. All the trance-like poses and flailing about just doesn't sit right for some reason. To me, it's no different than watching Jews bounce back and forth while reading prayers at the wailing wall or Muslims kneeling in unison on the floor of a mosque. To me, it just seems like an outward expression meant to compinsate for the lack of inward feeling.

Feel free to correct me. I'm posting this because I really want some peace about this conflict within me.

Dear Travis.  Seek Jesus.  Trust in Him as your Savior, believe He died for your sins and rose again.  Confess to Him He is your Master (Lord).  Then stay in conversation (prayer) with Him, asking Him to guide you into His truth...not looking to any one group or person necessarily, but to Jesus.  Ask Him to fill you with everything He has for you.  He will not let you down.

[noname]

trance-like

Is trance always negative?

off course not....trance music is da bomb!
seriously though, if one starts going into a frenzy and claiming that the Spirit has taken hold of you...i doubt that "spirit"...what good can come of it?
even Paul suggested gatherings should have order...not chaos

@molly:
I get singing and harps and trumpets...I don't get flailing arms and uttering gibberish that none can comprehend or moaning at a wall...or "special" prayer tools like shawls and wooden blocks strapped to your forehead...c'mon people...get real...its our hearts God desires, not the external stuff

[Molly]

trance-like

Is trance always negative?

off course not....trance music is da bomb!
seriously though, if one starts going into a frenzy and claiming that the Spirit has taken hold of you...i doubt that "spirit"...what good can come of it?
even Paul suggested gatherings should have order...not chaos

@molly:
I get singing and harps and trumpets...I don't get flailing arms and uttering gibberish that none can comprehend or moaning at a wall...or "special" prayer tools like shawls and wooden blocks strapped to your forehead...c'mon people...get real...its our hearts God desires, not the external stuff

I hear you.  I just know what works when you are a one legged man in an alligator kicking contest. I also understand a spontaneous gratitude and love bubbling up so strongly that it can no longer be contained and needs to escape the body...



14And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

 15So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

--2 Sam 6

[Cardinal]

I hear you.  I just know what works when you are a one legged man in an alligator kicking contest. I also understand a spontaneous gratitude and love bubbling up so strongly that it can no longer be contained and needs to escape the body...

14And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

 15So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. --2 Sam 6 [/quote]

  Thanks for my morning chuckle, Molly; I needed that! Blessings....

[Cardinal]

  You have to understand/have/experience the gifts of the Spirit as shown in Acts and Corinthians, before you can discern what is and is not, of His Spirit. Throwing out the baby with the bath water is never a good idea. For every counterfeit there exists a reality in God, indeed has to be, for a counterfeit is a poor copy of an original. Seek the original. Blessings.....