Author Topic: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?  (Read 40617 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #600 on: December 08, 2008, 07:27:17 AM »
Sure it's in the Bible. How can you give a freewill offering without free will?

Freewill offering
"A spontaneous gift (Ex. 35:29), a voluntary sacrifice (Lev." "22:23; Ezra 3:5), as opposed to one in consequence of a vow, or" in expiation of some offence. ...

"An offering compelled by the desire to thank God for his bountiful care."


29 So the people of Israel—every man and woman who was eager to help in the work the Lord had given them through Moses—brought their gifts and gave them freely to the Lord.

--Ex 35

Hi Mol...I see the intent of what you're saying, even though I don't believe (could be wrong) the actual phrase "free will" is to be found.  Again though, I see your point, but my thought would be that they were likely acting within this piece of my previous post..."God arranges circumstances;  allows choices (good and/or evil) within His plans and will; requires me to choose one of the options;"  My understanding would be that they made a very good choice out of the options only God set before them...it's true to this day, it's in Him we have our very breath, life, and being.

Well, I know you're a lover of the Word, I've expressed how I see it, and I imagine a year from now we'll still have 100,000 different perspectives on this.  Maybe someone will benefit from what we've both shared either today or a year from now, so I think I'm going to finish watching Spiderman 3.  Blessings to you, friend. 

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #601 on: December 08, 2008, 07:43:56 AM »
willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH
CHRIST's OBEDIENCE was ESTABLISHED in His life and Deeds as His DEEDS were ...ALWAYS...  found COINCIDING with GOD's WILL, not His own will!  How can you NOT see this?

The only way the WORD establishes FREEDOM in us, is when WE do the same as did the Savior, by doing the WILL of YHVH which Commands OBEDIENCE, ...NOT, our own, which CHOOSES DISOBEDIENCE... 

The SAVIOR did NOTHING but the WILL of YHVH... He NEVER did "his own"...

You are admitting here Jesus could have done his own will.  That's free choice.  That's free will.

How many times do you need to hear the same things, Molly? :rolleye:

CHOICE is NOT FREE just because it is CHOICE...  :laughing7:  You call it this because you NEED it to be FREE, in order to keep a measure of CONTROL of what you "do"...  Instead of submitting to the many places which note that GOD directs us and our steps... (Pro 20:24 / Jer 10:23 / Rom 9:19 / Pro 16:9)

Choice? :rolleye: ...whoa, ..."Big deal":

Dogs "choose"... Ants "choose"... fleas "choose"... Computers "choose"... fish "choose"... oh yeah, ...and, ...Men "choose"...  :laughing7:

"CHOICE" does not indicate FREEDOM... it indicates that OPTIONS available, are observed and then one or another of them, is embraced...  :dontknow:

If our "choice" was FREE WILL, then WHY do we need the WORD of GOD to MAKE us FREE Molly?  If we were already FREE in the first place?   :mshock:

 :Yeahright:  If we and our "will" is so ..."FREE"... why can't we "FREELY choose" to come to GOD Molly? (John 6:44 - no man CAN come to CHRIST except GOD drag him to Him)

And if our "WILL" is so liberatingly, ..."FREE", then WHY must we DO God's WILL?   :dontknow:

And WHY will ALL do GOD's WILL ...FOREVER?  Well?  :faint:

Otherwise, the word 'obedience' is meaningless.

Obedience is another word for compliance Molly... that is all it is...  When MEN do not COMPLY with the Command of GOD, they are DISOBEDIENT to it...  :dontknow:

And if men are so FREE... why does GOD command us to do what HE says?  Could it be that we are NOT FREE Molly? 

Why is our (free according to you) NATURAL STATE which "chooses with its "free will", referred to as DESPARATELY WICKED?  How can "FREE" people be stated to be IN CAPTIVITY?

Quote from: willieH
Your fingers DO as your HEAD decides,  does this make your fingers "ROBOTS"? 

Yes my fingers are the robots of my mind.  And the day that they are not I will be paralyzed.or have Parkinson's or some dread disease.

Yeah, ...I figured you would say something like this... Hey everybody, Molly's fingers are ROBOTS... Btw, Molly... what were they before "ROBOTS" were invented?

You say in your OWN WORDS, ...that your fingers (parts of your body) are nothing but "Robots" of YOUR MIND, right?   

In this, you believe your fingers don't have a "FREE WILL" doya Molly, and further admit that they are CONTROLLED by YOU to do YOUR WILL, ...right?  :dontknow:

Its OKAY for YOU to CONTROL them (parts of your body), but its NOT okay for GOD to CONTROL us (parts of His body)?

Isn't this a DOUBLE STANDARD Molly?  Its okay to CONTROL YOUR BODY and your body members are ROBOTS of your mind... but its NOT OKAY for GOD to do the same?


Also... Here's a NEWS FLASH!!...  :help: 

EVERYONE shall become ROBOTS in ETERNITY, because only the WILL of GOD is done in the HEAVENLY PLACES... which is already at the very least, ...populated by "ANGEL ROBOTS" and a "SON Robot" (and probably innumerable other varieties of "Heavenly ROBOTS")... :rolleye:  Soon to be joined by the innumerable Human Race of "ROBOTS" which shall be REQUIRED to do the WILL of GOD (and not their "own - free will"  :laughing7:)

Quote from: willieH
God's BODY is no different... CHRIST is the HEAD... and the HEAD decides the things which are done by His BODY... within HIS PURPOSE for them...

Christ is a hologram, every part contains the whole picture.  I am not to be the finger of a mythical body, although that is one way to look at it in metaphor.  I am to be the whole thing, the complete package--just men made perfect.

 :omg:  CHRIST is a HOLOGRAM?  Are you serious?  Naw... you can't be serious... or can you?  :faint:

Now you profess to follow the HOLOGRAM of GOD eh?  :pointlaugh:  Please Molly...  :laughhand:

Quote from: willieH
.We are NOT to be "credited" for doing anything WW... It is CHRIST which garners ALL "credit"...

It is not the fault of Christ when I mess up like Peter, but when I succeed, yes, he will get all the credit.

He gets the CREDIT for EVERYTHING sister M...  :boogie:

No, your "mess up" is not His "fault" ...it is HIS PURPOSE, Molly...

(1)  It is ORDAINED by Him that you "mess up" (Col 1:16 - ALL things - including your "mess up", are BY HIM, and FOR HIM)...

(2)  He concluded ALL in UNBELIEF - Rom 11:32 (including you, and your many "mess ups", Molly)

(3)  Whatsoever is NOT of FAITH is SIN - Rom 14:23  - which means He concluded you a SINNER...  because He concluded YOU in UNBELIEF... which is why you "mess up" Molly...

(4)  ALL have SINNED and come short of the GLORY of GOD... which means you were ALREADY a SINNER , (a "messer upper") even before you were born, for these WORDS though ETERNAL, were penned some 2000 years ago... Rom 3:23

So YES Molly... your "mess up" is INTENDED by Him... that you might find HUMILITY before Him, even though your "mess up" was even chosen by you, ...He decided before you were born, that you would "mess up"... so that you could come humbly before Him and admit that it was RIGHT that He chose for you to choose to "mess up"  :laugh:

Just teasin' you a little Molly...  :shakepoint:

We all are INTENDED to be "mess ups"... but GOD LOVES all His little "mess ups"  :HeartThrob:

Don't you just  :flowerred: LOVE ME, Molly?  :reachout:

                                                           


PeacE...
...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #602 on: December 08, 2008, 08:13:05 AM »
Galatians 1:11-12 (Authorized Version) . . .
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it
, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
But you want me to believe I must accept or receive with a "free" uninfluenced act of my own will what is preached to me?  So there is some merit in me by which God works salvation?

Ephesians 2:6-10 (Authorized Version) . . .
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith actually through my will; and that not of yourselves except, that is, my power of volition: it is the gift of God if I merit it by making the right choices:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, though we must first not inwardly work rejection, but favorably work certain characteristics of our personality created in Christ Jesus unto good works, we are actually our own workmanship, having decided free of influence to go the right way, so we have created that condition in ourselves by which we may do good which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:6-10 (God's Word) . . .
8 God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.
9 It's not the result of anything you've done, so no one can brag about it.
10 God has made us what we are. He has created us in Christ Jesus to live lives filled with good works that he has prepared for us to do.


The grace of God is not to be defined as merely undeserved favor; for, what is grace if it accomplishes nothing?  Grace is the working of God and there is nothing we can do to bring that about.  We cannot boss Him around, buy Him off or twist His arm behind His back.  If it depended on our working of anything of ourselves, including our own wills, it would be of us and our works, hence no more grace.  While we show the grace of God in our choices, such cannot be the foundation of our salvation, but the outworking of it.  The only result from basing salvation on anything in me is self-righteousness or self-condemnation:  self-righteousness, when I seem to succeed to meet the standard I've accepted in my own mind (I chose and you didn't); or, self-condemnation, when I don't measure up to the law I conceive of.  This faulty teaching causes much wavering and torment in those victimized by it.

Why would we bother to pray as the Lord taught us, "Thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven" if it was truly, "Our will be done in heaven as it is in the earth?"  "Thy will be done" doesn't sound the same to me as "My will be done."  Does it all depend on my will, my choice? or is Salvation truly of the Lord?  I think God wants us to pray like Jesus, "Not my will, but Thine be done."


« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 08:19:34 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #603 on: December 08, 2008, 08:29:10 AM »
As surely as the frog is pinned down by budding scientists, so Jesus was pinned down on the cross as the victim of God's will.  Men do not like to think of themselves as pinned down victims of anything, specially not the wills of wicked men against themselves.  They do not easily volunteer to be made such a spectacle, even if it is in obedient submission to God.  The doctrine that you are God's victim, pinned down by Him at His will is self-evident truth, else nobody would ever die.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #604 on: December 08, 2008, 09:01:28 AM »
willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Sure it's in the Bible. How can you give a freewill offering without free will?

Freewill offering
"A spontaneous gift (Ex. 35:29), a voluntary sacrifice (Lev." "22:23; Ezra 3:5), as opposed to one in consequence of a vow, or" in expiation of some offence. ...

"An offering compelled by the desire to thank God for his bountiful care."

Don't you see what you have just said Molly?  COMPELLED to THANK GOD...

When one is COMPELLED, one is INFLUENCED to a VERY HIGH DEGREE... :yes:

A truly FREE WILL offering, given of a WILL which is FREE, ...would be given without any PROMPTS whatsoever...

Spontaneity can be found in a KILLING during a robbery... or a word from the mouth of an emotional person...

Spontaneity doesn't indicate that the GIFT was given of FREE WILL either...

The LOVE of GOD which is FREE, prompted that GIFT... it did not emerge without that HIGH LEVEL INFLUENCE...

In any event... don't know if you will get this, but here goes:

This OFFERING was foretold in ETERNITY, by the ETERNAL WORD of GOD which notes it to have manifested in TIME... as the WORD which ALWAYS IS... directed and originated the gift from the HEART of GOD... not the giver...

GOD's WORD does not need TIME in order to BE... JESUS CHRIST is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever...  so an "OFFERING" noted in the WORD is an ETERNAL NOTATION, that ALWAYS IS and FOREVER proceeds from the Heart of YHVH...

The offering was given IN TIME, because GOD's WORD, says that it was given... which WORD cannot be broken... GIVEN because GOD's WORD says it was GIVEN, not because the "GIVER" gave...

So the OFFERING was according to the WORD, not the decision of the giver...  The giver gave according to the WORD... glorifying the WORD, not the giver...


Quote
29 So the people of Israel—every man and woman who was eager to help in the work the Lord had given them through Moses—brought their gifts and gave them freely to the Lord.

--Ex 35

More of the same Molly... the WORD is what every LOVER of GOD is drawn to EXALT, not to himself or any effort given...  which is WHY YHVH LOVES a cheerful giver, for the giving actually originated in HIM via His LOVE given,  ...then returns to HIM in the GIVING spirit which is thereby birthed in the heart of the one affected by that LOVE ...

Become LOST in His LOVE by abandoning what you percieve as YOU... and you shall come to know that it is  His LOVE that finds YOU... and returns you to HIMSELF, where you began...

                                                             


PeacE...
...willieH  :cloud9:

YoungYuni

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #605 on: December 08, 2008, 09:23:00 AM »
Hiya!

It has come to my attention in this thread that the reason for the disagreement is based on a misunderstanding of the word free, in free will. Free will is the will human beings have, it does not indicate any sort of freedom other than in the ability to make choices voluntarily, choices that can affect our will, not God's.

Please don't take offense, I am quite seriously concerned here, were some of you part of some sort of offshoot Christian cult prior to your understanding of salvation of all? If you take offense, that is not all what I intend.

I am expressing genuine concern here.

I was invited here by a facebook invite, but I do not know each of your religious or doctrinal pasts and reading some of the thoughts concerning free will by some, I am wary of what the origin of this forum actually comes from. Much of what I have seen in defiance of free will has very little to do with the doctrine or philosophy of free will to begin with.

Let me post what I found on an online dictionary. It is the definition I was taught in Sunday School, Seminary, and others.

free will

–noun
1.    free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.

Notice that free will is a single word unto itself, a noun, not two words as many here seem to have made a mistake doing.

You have a choice, reply to my post or do not. It is your freedom to make a choice concerning this dilemma, which defines what free will means.

2.    Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Notice it not free from physical or divine forces, but simply not determined by physical or divine forces.

Free will, is the ability to make a choice in practical terms and in philosophy, the ideology of having a choice.

More specifically, a choice which determines the course of one's intent and action, a will subject to change.

That is all free will means.

I am in wonderment to many of you learned  your definition?

I am in wonderment if many of you had truly any learning of theology prior to discussing the definition of free will.

Please don't take offense, these are sincere observations and it humbles my spirit in sadness concerning where some of you may have been in your Christian walk, under tyrant Christianity, and abusive authoritarian doctrines.

I am saddened by the hurt you must have endured. I was quite blessed not to be brought up under such legalistic religion that claimed to follow Christ but was far from Him in both deed and doctrine.

I rejoice that you have discovered that we are not under a false tyrannical Christianity, or abuse from propagandist authoritarian doctrines; but, it saddens me that due to these things, some of you may have thrown out some very essential understandings which were true despite the fact they may have been held by false tyrannical Christianity, and propagandist authoritarian doctrines.

I believe God is in control of everything, and free will has never equated a freedom from God.

This may be my last post depending on the reaction to my sincere concern.

 :crywipe:

 :sigh:  :mshock:

 :girlheart: :boyheart:
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 09:25:38 AM by YoungYuni »

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #606 on: December 08, 2008, 10:16:11 AM »
Quote
I was quite blessed not to be brought up under such legalistic religion that claimed to follow Christ but was far from Him in both deed and doctrine.

I was brought up with a lot of freedom, as well.  There is a difference between freedom and tyranny.  I do believe we are free in Christ, and credit him for the freedom that I was raised in. 

But, I also believe we are living in the dark ages of Christianity now.  People have been slaves for so long, they can't remember, if they ever knew, freedom.

However, I don't think you are seeing any weird cults here, Yuni, just the different personalities and opinions on a board which promotes a lot of freedom.   That is the best way to learn.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #607 on: December 08, 2008, 10:30:17 AM »
Quote
CHRIST is a HOLOGRAM?  Are you serious?  Naw... you can't be serious... or can you? 

I'm quite serious.  He is the firstborn of many brothers.




12His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church),

    13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.

    14So then, we may no longer be children, tossed [like ships] to and fro between chance gusts of teaching and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine, [the prey of] the cunning and cleverness of unscrupulous men, [gamblers engaged] in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead.

    15Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth [in all things, speaking truly, dealing truly, living truly]. Enfolded in love, let us grow up in every way and in all things into Him Who is the Head, [even] Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).


--Eph 4

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 10:33:22 AM by Molly »

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #608 on: December 08, 2008, 02:51:22 PM »
Quote
So let me ask you some questions:
1. Can God cause someone choose something, like say cause them to repent, without "violating" their free will?

Hi Bob, if I understand your question correctly then Yes and it the way God always does it without violating our FREEWILL.

God has provisions in place for every choice man make because He has the foreknowledge of what that choice is. Thus Jonah by his own freewill ran from God and God provided a big fish, this was Gods provision for Jonah's freewill choice.
This is God working in us both to will and to do all His good pleasure, God does NOT do the willing for us but works within us by His Spirit to willingly obey Him.
Thus Jonah after experiencing God provision for him, repented of doing his own will and turned to do the will of the Father, as soon as he did this hell spit him back out.


Quote
2. Does God have free will?


Yes

My definition of freewill is a will that can make a choice no matter what outside or inside forces are at work. Life and death pulls us in opposite directions, but its your freewill choice which direction you take. 

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #609 on: December 08, 2008, 02:59:53 PM »
Quote
Maybe this is one of the reasons the term "free will" is not in the Bible


Jab freewill is recorded in scripture, its NOT two words like everyone seems to think its ONE word, it not free & will, it FREEWILL.

So put that (freewill) in your search engine and you will find it in the scriptures.
And as it is found in the scriptures, were pretty blinded by our own prejudices if we continue to say there is no freewill.

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #610 on: December 08, 2008, 03:43:59 PM »
Quote
It has come to my attention in this thread that the reason for the disagreement is based on a misunderstanding of the word free, in free will. Free will is the will human beings have, it does not indicate any sort of freedom other than in the ability to make choices voluntarily, choices that can affect our will, not God's.


Exactly, amen

Quote
Please don't take offense, I am quite seriously concerned here, were some of you part of some sort of offshoot Christian cult prior to your understanding of salvation of all? If you take offense, that is not all what I intend.

I am expressing genuine concern here.


I was invited here by a facebook invite, but I do not know each of your religious or doctrinal pasts and reading some of the thoughts concerning free will by some, I am wary of what the origin of this forum actually comes from. Much of what I have seen in defiance of free will has very little to do with the doctrine or philosophy of free will to begin with.

YY don't confuse the origin of this forum with some peoples belief's on this forum.
Kind of like, the views expressed on this station are not necessarily the views of this station.

Quote
Let me post what I found on an online dictionary. It is the definition I was taught in Sunday School, Seminary, and others.

free will

–noun
1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.

Notice that free will is a single word unto itself, a noun, not two words as many here seem to have made a mistake doing.


Exactly, and is what I pointed out earlier and said that should tell us something.

Quote
You have a choice, reply to my post or do not. It is your freedom to make a choice concerning this dilemma, which defines what free will means.

2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Notice it not free from physical or divine forces, but simply not determined by physical or divine forces.

Free will, is the ability to make a choice in practical terms and in philosophy, the ideology of having a choice.

More specifically, a choice which determines the course of one's intent and action, a will subject to change.

That is all free will means.


Yes, yes, yes and amen

Quote
I am in wonderment to many of you learned your definition?

I am in wonderment if many of you had truly any learning of theology prior to discussing the definition of free will.

Please don't take offense, these are sincere observations and it humbles my spirit in sadness concerning where some of you may have been in your Christian walk, under tyrant Christianity, and abusive authoritarian doctrines.

I am saddened by the hurt you must have endured. I was quite blessed not to be brought up under such legalistic religion that claimed to follow Christ but was far from Him in both deed and doctrine.

I rejoice that you have discovered that we are not under a false tyrannical Christianity, or abuse from propagandist authoritarian doctrines; but, it saddens me that due to these things, some of you may have thrown out some very essential understandings which were true despite the fact they may have been held by false tyrannical Christianity, and propagandist authoritarian doctrines
.

I understand were your coming from YY, it saddens me also when I see some throw around the word orthodoxy like it's a bad word, as if to say that if you believe something orthodox what you believe is in error. They seem to have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

Quote
I believe God is in control of everything, and free will has never equated a freedom from God.

 :thumbsup:

Quote
This may be my last post depending on the reaction to my sincere concern.


Bro/sis even if some react strongly in a negative manner is no reason to leave, and I hope you don't leave if it happens. This is a discussion board YY and you can't expect everyone to be in the same place in knowledge and understanding that you are. On this topic you and I seem to be in the same place, but on other topics we may differ, and those who are in disagreement with you on this topic may agree with you on other topics.

So post what you believe bro/sis and let God work out the details.

God bless.

Offline rosered

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #611 on: December 08, 2008, 04:07:21 PM »

 
  Hi I have learned alot from this thread  :icon_flower:
  Thanks be to God  for the many voices/waters  from above

  that we may drink ..

 one of my favs. :HeartThrob:
 
 Psa 29:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] Give unto the LORD, O ye mighty, give unto the LORD glory and strength.


 Psa 29:2 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.


 Psa 29:3 The voice of the LORD [is] upon the waters: the God of glory thundereth: the LORD [is] upon many waters.


 Psa 29:4 The voice of the LORD [is] powerful; the voice of the LORD [is] full of majesty.


 Psa 29:5 The voice of the LORD breaketh the cedars; yea, the LORD breaketh the cedars of Lebanon.


 Psa 29:6 He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.


 Psa 29:7 The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire.


 Psa 29:8 The voice of the LORD shaketh the wilderness; the LORD shaketh the wilderness of Kadesh.


 Psa 29:9 The voice of the LORD maketh the hinds to calve, and discovereth the forests: and in his temple doth every one speak of [his] glory.


 Psa 29:10 The LORD sitteth upon the flood; yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever.


 Psa 29:11 The LORD will give strength unto his people; the LORD will bless his people with peace.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #612 on: December 08, 2008, 04:13:35 PM »
Quote from: Pneuma
Bro/sis even if some react strongly in a negative manner is no reason to leave, and I hope you don't leave if it happens. This is a discussion board YY and you can't expect everyone to be in the same place in knowledge and understanding that you are. On this topic you and I seem to be in the same place, but on other topics we may differ, and those who are in disagreement with you on this topic may agree with you on other topics

AMEN :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #613 on: December 08, 2008, 04:15:07 PM »
Hiya!

It has come to my attention in this thread that the reason for the disagreement is based on a misunderstanding of the word free, in free will. Free will is the will human beings have, it does not indicate any sort of freedom other than in the ability to make choices voluntarily, choices that can affect our will, not God's.

Please don't take offense, I am quite seriously concerned here, were some of you part of some sort of offshoot Christian cult prior to your understanding of salvation of all? If you take offense, that is not all what I intend.

I am expressing genuine concern here.

I was invited here by a facebook invite, but I do not know each of your religious or doctrinal pasts and reading some of the thoughts concerning free will by some, I am wary of what the origin of this forum actually comes from. Much of what I have seen in defiance of free will has very little to do with the doctrine or philosophy of free will to begin with.

Let me post what I found on an online dictionary. It is the definition I was taught in Sunday School, Seminary, and others.

free will

–noun
1.    free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.

Notice that free will is a single word unto itself, a noun, not two words as many here seem to have made a mistake doing.

You have a choice, reply to my post or do not. It is your freedom to make a choice concerning this dilemma, which defines what free will means.

2.    Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Notice it not free from physical or divine forces, but simply not determined by physical or divine forces.

Free will, is the ability to make a choice in practical terms and in philosophy, the ideology of having a choice.

More specifically, a choice which determines the course of one's intent and action, a will subject to change.

That is all free will means.

I am in wonderment to many of you learned  your definition?

I am in wonderment if many of you had truly any learning of theology prior to discussing the definition of free will.

Please don't take offense, these are sincere observations and it humbles my spirit in sadness concerning where some of you may have been in your Christian walk, under tyrant Christianity, and abusive authoritarian doctrines.

I am saddened by the hurt you must have endured. I was quite blessed not to be brought up under such legalistic religion that claimed to follow Christ but was far from Him in both deed and doctrine.

I rejoice that you have discovered that we are not under a false tyrannical Christianity, or abuse from propagandist authoritarian doctrines; but, it saddens me that due to these things, some of you may have thrown out some very essential understandings which were true despite the fact they may have been held by false tyrannical Christianity, and propagandist authoritarian doctrines.

I believe God is in control of everything, and free will has never equated a freedom from God.

This may be my last post depending on the reaction to my sincere concern.

 :crywipe:

 :sigh:  :mshock:

 :girlheart: :boyheart:
Oh, please don't leave!  Please don't.  If one more person with sanity about free will gets thrown-out/run-off, then I'm liable to leave as well.  I recognize the poison in some of what you've seen, but my back's been up against the wall on the "if you're going to have a forum where people can express their views, then ya can't limit it to only what you're in agreement with" kinda stuff.  Help me keep the balance around here for the benefit of everyone that comes to these boards so that people can make up their own minds about either which side is right or which bits to believe from both sides. 

I'm personally absolutely disgusted by the fact that the absolute sovereignty crowd can't understand that nobody that believes in the Universal Restoration is denying God's Sovereignty, even when asserting man's self motivation in distinction from any kind of self determinism.  They wind up doing the very same thing regarding this issue that the ETer does in magnifying God's judgments way beyond the absolute truth of the balance the Scriptures call for regarding judgment and in total contradiction of the Cross of Christ, so that on the free will issue we've got Christian Universalists asserting one portion of Scripture in total denial of the rest, about "if you will hearken dilligently unto the voice of the Lord Your God and will keep His statutes, then...." which although is from Deuteronomy isn't done away in Christ who tells us that if we will hearken to His Word, then we'll be His disciples indeed...  They set aside obedience and the Biblical doctrine of submission and the whole basis for rewards and punishments that have nothing to do with sin that's been removed by Christ Jesus. 

But I'm not in a position [on this forum] to be able to squash doctrines that I either don't agree with or that have wandered out of balance.  All I can do is keep an eye on behaviour that everything is remaining and maintaining some semblance of civility.  I desperately need folks like you that'll stand for the rest of the truth of Scripture, where at least our individual choices are concerned.  I have counseled with so many people that have attempted suicide over this very thing of believing that none of their choices mattered.  And I've had to counsel too many grief stricken families over loved ones that have committed suicide over this very thing, of being lead to believe that what they did didn't really matter anyway, so why go any further?  Help me with keeping things balanced and respectful towards all human life around here.  Christ Jesus bled from the brow of his forehead in Gethsemane and with the crown of thorns to buy back our will power so that we could reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin, presented to God as alive from the dead, and fruitful with the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness which doesn't exist independent of will power being present to develop as a seed into the very honor of God in our lives.  The New Covenant is a covenant of honor and chivalry and not of how tightly leashed that we are in the way that people were under the Mosaic law.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #614 on: December 08, 2008, 04:39:27 PM »
Quote
2. Does God have free will?


Yes
Is that trick question....?  :laughing7:
Gods powers are limitless so He can do whatever He desires. Looking at it that way the answer is yes.
But I think God limits His own free will by the promises He made. By His own sense of what is good and evil. And a  bunch more factors. Then the answer is No.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #615 on: December 08, 2008, 04:44:10 PM »
Quote
2. Does God have free will?


Yes
Is that trick question....?  :laughing7:
Gods powers are limitless so He can do whatever He desires. Looking at it that way the answer is yes.
But I think God limits His own free will by the promises He made. By His own sense of what is good and evil. And a  bunch more factors. Then the answer is No.
:goodpost: :myahoo: :first:

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #616 on: December 08, 2008, 04:59:23 PM »
Quote
2. Does God have free will?


Yes
Is that trick question....?  :laughing7:
Gods powers are limitless so He can do whatever He desires. Looking at it that way the answer is yes.
But I think God limits His own free will by the promises He made. By His own sense of what is good and evil. And a  bunch more factors. Then the answer is No.
It is a trick question.  We're created in his image. If he is free, then so are we.   A covenant entered into freely is not limiting your free will; it's using it to make a choice for another.  Like marriage.   Or government.  lol

Let's look at the Declaration of Independence to see how they weighed in on this:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


They are saying that man, created in the image of God, is not happy and secure unless he is free.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 05:39:24 PM by Molly »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #617 on: December 08, 2008, 06:17:59 PM »

The ultra sovereigntists miss a great factor concerning Gods character in removing freewill.   They argue over the term and miss the factor of scripture that really shows Gods incredible intriguing qualities.

If God influences to a high degree, the person who gives a "freewill" offering to him then he must also have influenced to a high degree the rapist, the murderer, etc.

You cannot have it both ways,  you can express what you want, but that is not the God of scripture.  It is the God you have manifested in your image.   Giving all that credit to God is not causing you to be more spiritual it is actually showing the bondage you are in.

God being responsible for the creation of Evil, does not make him evil.  If he directly influences a Child rapist to rape, then God is evil.   I really do not care how emotional that may seem to be because if God cannot be in the presence of evil, then he is not going to influence a deed such as that.

This notion of time and eternity is irrevelent to making the case that anything that has happened was the only thing that could have happened.

What has happened is what happened, of course that is true.  But, the bible tells us not to look back because we cannot do anything about a choice we made that ended us up where we are at.   This does not mean, that along the way, we could not have made a different choice.  Only that we didn't make a different choice and it is irrevalent to think we wish it was a better one.  However, none of that changes that TODAY you can make a poor choice or a good choice and it is according to the preference of what is presented to you.

Yep, God is responsible, but what is he responsible for?   If a child rapist kills a child because God ordained it to happen, then the rapist is neither responsible nor his he accountable.  Some say it is irrevalent to use modern terms such as a puppet to describe anything.

Good for you, you really do not know what your saying because you simply think that definitions are pointless while you use defintions to suit your own bias.

The defintion of a puppet is exactly how some describe their false doctrines.

"One controlled in his action by the will of another;" 


The eternal God is not suprised or tricked by anything man has done, but the view that often is told that God has ordained this all to happen shows a greater misunderstanding of Eternity.   Some will then demand that I satisfy their misunderstanding by explaining it to them and upon that explaination they will complain that I do not undertsand it because I cannot cause them to understand it. 

The problem here is the misunderstanding that God allowing something is not a measure of acceptance of Gods part for evil deeds.   It is understanding that as things unfold, the eternal measure of everything we have done was planned for.

However, if you claim that God influenced someone to commit evil, then God indeed condones it and accepts each action is a good thing.  But scripture does not describe evil "DEEDS" that way, he only describes Evil itself as necessary.   There is a difference; Evil having a good purpose is different than a God directly controlling someone to commit evil.


God determining all mankind be saved, does not negate our liberty, period, because scripture defies your own analysis of it.   If God presents a choice of A B C D E or F  then within Gods sovereignty God has planned for the multiple paths we have the freedom to take.

Choosing A might be a road in the narrow path.  Choosing F might be a broad path of destruction.  For the illustration if God knows that path F might be the inclusion of me killing someones loved one, then that is a  CHOICE I am accountable for.  I am also accountable for Choice A or anything in between.   But the road to my reconciliation may include reward for good choices and punishment for the terrible ones.   That punishment, whatever it may be is indeed corrective and our choices can determine what we will need correction from.   

In the midst of all of that Gods will is not about him orchestrating Evil for Good it is the inclusion of evil to cause us to understand why our bad choices are indeed bad.


I hope no one leaves the forum over my post,  but I will not keep quiet when there is something that needs said.









Offline Taffy

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #618 on: December 08, 2008, 06:39:51 PM »
Guys

This Thread for now has been closed , im sorry to have to do this, but I do feel that this just may fuel a food fight.

When Martin Returns, he can re-open it if he chooses.


 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #619 on: December 08, 2008, 08:21:30 PM »

 
  Hi I have learned alot from this thread  :icon_flower:
  Thanks be to God  for the many voices/waters  from above

  that we may drink ..

 one of my favs. :HeartThrob:
 
 Psa 29:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] Give unto the LORD, O ye mighty, give unto the LORD glory and strength.


 Psa 29:2 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.


 Psa 29:3 The voice of the LORD [is] upon the waters: the God of glory thundereth: the LORD [is] upon many waters.


 Psa 29:4 The voice of the LORD [is] powerful; the voice of the LORD [is] full of majesty.


 Psa 29:5 The voice of the LORD breaketh the cedars; yea, the LORD breaketh the cedars of Lebanon.


 Psa 29:6 He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.


 Psa 29:7 The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire.


 Psa 29:8 The voice of the LORD shaketh the wilderness; the LORD shaketh the wilderness of Kadesh.


 Psa 29:9 The voice of the LORD maketh the hinds to calve, and discovereth the forests: and in his temple doth every one speak of [his] glory.


 Psa 29:10 The LORD sitteth upon the flood; yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever.


 Psa 29:11 The LORD will give strength unto his people; the LORD will bless his people with peace.


Amen Sis.

He seperates the WATERS beneath, from the waters ABOVE and the ABOVE HE called heaven

Psa 148:4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #620 on: December 08, 2008, 08:40:35 PM »
I think it's a good idea...I kept wanting to do it, but just couldn't quite pull the trigger.  Instead, I kept trying to present a moderate, middle ground, that brings in God's sovereignty, and also our responsibility to make choices...hoping folks will see the sense in that, some sort of common ground everyone can live with, and leave it alone.  It seems, however, we just can't get away from fighting over terminology...this is like the 3rd time I've posted the same sort of idea, and folks just keep on taking extreme positions.  Personally, I give up, and I'd suggest as mods we just don't allow discussions to go into this direction  :dontknow:.  I think we've seen the toxicity...IMO, there's plenty else we can discuss here that doesn't have to go down this road.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 08:47:17 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23