Author Topic: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?  (Read 44702 times)

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Offline Taffy

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #575 on: December 07, 2008, 03:37:31 PM »
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Also, I don't think those high places are limited to self-righteousness.  For example, in Daniel 4, Nebuchadnezzar's high places were thinking himself to be self-majestic - He worshipped the work of his hands, thinking HE had built HIMSELF a kigndom.  Meanwhile, the prodigal son's high places were his serving the lusts of his flesh.

I see it one and the same Bob, two fold if ya will , BOTH are the worship of the Flesh( heart and Mind=soul),The reason I believe Christ uses the Pharisees eptomises this  as AN example FOR all.

Its a Known Fact that Christ used Sarcasm upon The law keepers of The day, the greek word for Sarcasm literally means" to cut the flesh" ., thats If my memory serves me right.

For me,  Its the same as The wheat and Tares ,yes its shows us that its a TYPE of folk, thus the pharisees and law keepers of the time, But equally so, the Flesh ( heart and Mind) of  man being Burned as Tares ,so the Hidden man can be revealed.
 
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So I think in the most general case those high places are any idolatry we choose to serve in place of doing God's will.

Here are examples where the high places are symbolized by the sun, moon, and stars:

  • Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
  • Deuteronomy 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
  • 2 Kings 23:5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.
  • Jeremiah 8:2 And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth.

In judgment and in reaping, God causes those created lights to darken.  God brings down the high places.

  • Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
  • Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
  • Ezekiel 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.
  • Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

This darkening of the sun/moon/stars was completed within those upon whom God poured out His Spirit on the day of pentecost.  Their mountains had been abased and God's mountain had been exalted within them.

  • Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That's how I see it anyway. ;)

Yo, nicely put yourself, :icon_flower:

IF YOU WILL, we are to serve the CREATOR not the Creation ,that is, the sun , the moon and stars Represent BOTH Covenants,...again two fold,...

The sun , the one that faded, as did the Glory on MOSES face, witnessed by the MOON ,which is a Star By night Reflecting the "TRUE LIGHT of the SON", The Stars are light which shine ( messengers) in DARKNESS...are the FORM mentioned In Rom 2: 19

WE MOVE FROM "GLORY" TO "GLORY"

1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory. 
Althou the Old covenant was WRITTEN ,of itself, it shouldnt be worshipped , for we In the NEW " worship in "Spirit and Truth", that is Christ In us.

This again ,as Zeek is striving to explain to Tony ,is TWO FOLD.,

Christ words are parabolic, why do people forget this simple thing?

The tribulation Bob is moving from A child under LAW TO A SON, of FAITH, Which  Paul and scripture refer to as "CHILDBIRTH".,...... to travail
Paul understood this

That which is shaken IS the high place of the Mind which held to the "form" ....again, in scripture Paul speaks once in the Faith, ..."do not let your MIND be shaken" , their a Time for things to fall , and time to KEEP.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Christ and the Covenants are Hidden throughout all scripture,  ..... Christ is the WISDOM of God, hidden in the hearts of all men

Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all [things] that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith. 
Ecc 2:23 For all his days [are] sorrows, and his travail grief; yea, his heart taketh not rest in the night. This is also vanity. 

Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

 JOY is but another Title of our LORD, he spoke in parables, Which Testify to HIM

Jhn 16:19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
 
Jhn 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.


 Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for [b]joy that a man is born into the world.[/b]


 Jhn 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
 
Can we find Paul to witness this....

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,



sorta got carried away Bobf, but doesnt scripture do that to you :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 03:45:45 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

YoungYuni

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #576 on: December 07, 2008, 04:59:00 PM »
Hello Bobf!

I feel you still do not understand the problem of continuing to use the word will in place of free will. We are taking about using the word will in a general sense versus the specific sense of what free will means.

A will can do all those things you mentioned along with a free will. It is the nature of the will to have a course of action and intent and that includes, anoint, elect, set apart, decide, determine, fix, etc. What kind of will it is, determines what those words actually mean.

For God to do these things does not alter or change His Will; but for human beings, it does.

We respond to God's anointing, election, holiness, decision, determination, fixation, etc. we are not programmed to do God's anointing, election, holiness, decision, determination, fixation, etc. without it being in relation to the free will He had given us.

Scripture is clear that everything God does concerning mankind is a response, choice, decision, submission, etc. to God's Will.

Your birth was determined by God, but was also in cooperation with the free will of your parents willful sexual relationship. So there is no need to use anything that is beyond the reach of our will, to prove or negate our free will.

So using your the Scripture you used:

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

We all know how a river is turned and form, the water is allowed to run it's course which in turn creates a river. It is not manipulated or planned, it is allowed to be organic and form through it is own properties as water springs forth from ground waters and falls down from mountains and forms.

It is God's will that the river forms by it's own, just as it has been set anointed, elected, set apart, decided, determined, fixed, etc. that mankind runs it's course and forms by it's own.

Let me repeat what I wrote for Paul earlier,

We can choose to reject God for all eternity, but like sin was inevitable choice when we were created without the knowledge of good and evil; when we all have the knowledge of the truth in Christ it is inevitable that we will choose God.

We love Him because He first loved us. We chose Him because He first chose us. He reconciled us to Him through Christ, now we must reconciled ourselves to Him.

The term free will adequately demonstrates what ultimately God had planned for us within the course of His Will for all creation.

If God is not a man concerning His Will, then we are not God concerning ours. There is no purpose or reason to even compare the two. Our will is quite different than the Will of God.

 :bgdance:
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 05:03:20 PM by YoungYuni »

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #577 on: December 07, 2008, 06:21:14 PM »
Willie you keep saying free will is not recorded in scripture, but IT IS RECORDED in scripture concerning offerings unto God, done by our FREEWILL and in going up to Jerusalem. That scripture combines the words FREE & WILL into ONE word should tell us something.

If man does NOT have a freewill to choose as you assume you take away the glory attributed to Jesus Christ who by His own FREEWILL OFFERING for us died.

NOT my WILL but THINE BE DONE, are a clear reference that Jesus could have rejected the cross if He so WILLED.

Now your going to say NO He could not have rejected the cross because the scriptures proclaim that He was to go to the cross, because God in His sovereignty declared it so.

But to state some such as that is to confuse Gods sovereignty with God foreknowledge of what He knew would transpire.

This is easily seen by Jesus' own words when they came to crucify Him.

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus could have prayed to the Father and according to His own words and the Father would have heard His prayer and sent twelve legions of angels to rescue Him from such a fate.

But Jesus rejected His OWN WILL for the WILL of the Father by saying

54But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Jesus rejected His own will and gave Himself a FREEWILL OFFERING for us.

FREEWILL
5071 n^edabah { ned-aw-baw'}

from 5068; TWOT - 1299a; n f

AV - freewill offering 15, offerings 9, free offering 2, freely 2, willing offering 1, voluntary offering 1, plentiful 1, voluntarily 1, voluntary 1, willing 1, willingly 1; 26

GK - 5607 { hb;d;nÒ
1)   voluntariness, free-will offering
1a)   voluntariness
1b)   freewill, voluntary, offering
Strong's

Now to some scriptures concerning FREEWILL OFFERINGS

Leviticus 22:18-19
18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering; 19 Ye shall offer at your own will a male without blemish, of the beeves, of the sheep, or of the goats.

The Geneva Bible has verse 19 Ye shall offer of your FREE MIND…

Ezra 3:5
5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

Obviously the FREEWILL OFFERING is NOT done by COMPULSION as you assume for it is done WILLINGLY of a FREE MIND.




Ezekiel 46:12
12 Now when the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily unto the LORD, one shall then open him the gate that looketh toward the east, and he shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, as he did on the sabbath day: then he shall go forth; and after his going forth one shall shut the gate.

And this one has NOTHING to do with OFFERING but of going up to Jerusalem of THEIR OWN FREEWILL.
 
Ezra 7:13
13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

So we can all see that FREEWILL is indeed RECORDED in SCRIPTURE contrary to your belief.

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #578 on: December 07, 2008, 06:29:43 PM »
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I think for some those are one and the same issue. For some, if "God is the ultimate cause of the removing of unbelief" then to them it means we do not have free will. For that reason, I avoid using the term "free wll" and just say "will". We always have a will and we always make choices. When God dispells unbelief in a person's heart he or she still has a will and is still making choices.

Bob I think by avoiding using the term freewill is in part why FREEWILL discussions are so confusing. For me (to steal Taffy's phrase) by reading your post you do believe in FREEWILL, but because you do not use the term your posts a sometimes confusing at least to me because when I read you we seem to be saying the same thing.

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #579 on: December 07, 2008, 06:33:08 PM »
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Christ is the DAY Star which Rises in all men unto belief, HE IS the Resurrection Unto LIFE.....the Lock are for those still bound by their unbelief ,.

JUST WHY isnt this to do with BOTH Gentile and Jew....?

He came to SAVE that was LOST, and that which was LOST was HIM...For mine Hes Hidden in the regions of ALL men, till TIME reveals that which was hidden behind the veil

Graham I never looked at it that way before, but I agree for the light is in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not. Good inward application, but I still believe it has an outward application also.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #580 on: December 07, 2008, 06:39:10 PM »
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Christ is the DAY Star which Rises in all men unto belief, HE IS the Resurrection Unto LIFE.....the Lock are for those still bound by their unbelief ,.

JUST WHY isnt this to do with BOTH Gentile and Jew....?

He came to SAVE that was LOST, and that which was LOST was HIM...For mine Hes Hidden in the regions of ALL men, till TIME reveals that which was hidden behind the veil

Graham I never looked at it that way before, but I agree for the light is in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not. Good inward application, but I still believe it has an outward application also.

Yo Scott :thumbsup:

I Normally see twofold  Bro, the natural or Outward and the Spiritual or Inward... :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Online WhiteWings

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #581 on: December 07, 2008, 06:56:21 PM »
If there is no free will, then there is also no good and evil....
If we are robots controlled by God we don't do good or bad things.
We can't be creditted or punished for things we don't do ourselfs.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #582 on: December 07, 2008, 07:30:21 PM »
How deceived are Christians  to be convinced that we must move backwards, to the time before the appearance of Christ on earth, to the Levite priesthood?  Who could want to move backwards to a time of a priestly class who were the only ones who had access to God?  All intercessions to God had to go through this class and pay them for forgiveness of sin.  Payment in the form of your best bull or your best sheep or the first of your harvest or gold coin had to be received before atonement could be given.

Who would want to rebuild the Temple which was destroyed as Jesus said it would be?  Who would want to bring back animal sacrifice?  The red heiffer waits in the wings for such.

But God has given us a new priesthood, one that is never spoken about in Christian circles, one that is based on an eternal life and an oath of God.  Who would want to go back?


11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!


--Hebrews 9

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #583 on: December 07, 2008, 07:50:58 PM »


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Dear pneuma, The remnant that God did not harden believed. But they did not believe because they excercised some sort of free will but due to God opening up their eyes, ears and heart. Paul makes a case in point that:

Tony this is the area that you keep misunderstanding me, I am NOT saying they believe because they use their FREEWILL, I am saying they either walk by their FREEWILL in unbelief or in belief. Jesus tore the vail from top to bottom with His death and ALL are now FREE to enter within the vail. The reason people (not just the Jews) fail to go into the Holy of Holies is because they still believe the vail is in place, thus it is by their OWN unbelief they are locked up, for as I keep pointing out God says if they abide NOT still in unbelief He will graff them back in.

Brother you say that this is only according to the elect, but those who are graffed back in are expressly said to be those who were locked up in unbelief. That same unbelief that you say they CANNOT get out of until some future time.





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Tony's reply: But they will continue to abide in unbelief UNTIL the complement of the nations enter which has not happened yet. There are still people being added to the body of Christ from the nations. Once that body is complete then Israel will be grafted back in to the olive tree.

Brother I don't disagree with this per say, many of those who are locked up in THEIR own unbelief will not be freed until this time. This is Gods foreknowledge of when ALL Israel is saved. But that does not mean the door of faith is closed to them, its just stating that those who refuse to believe will stay in their state of unbelief until that time. The door is open to ALL that call on the name of the Lord, and when a Jew abides NOT still in unbelief God says He will graff them back in again.

All down though history Tony we see people making a distinction of one kind or another.
Israel of old always made a distinction between themselves from the rest of the nation.
The Christians today make a distinction between themselves and the sinner.
And the elect make a distinction between themselves and everyone else.

Yet from these same scriptures we have been discussing we read

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee

These statements are made to those who make a distinction between themselves and others, thinking in themselves that they are the ELECT of God, but God says if they become highminded even those whom He ELECTED He will NOT SPARE.

People seem to think because they are the ELECT of God they don't have anything to worry about, but this whole chapter is about how God treats the ELECT if they walk in unbelief, there is NO distinction in Christ brother, no JEW and no GREEK, no MALE and no FEMALE for they are ALL of ONE, that being of CHRIST.

Thus to say NO JEW can be saved until all the gentiles come in is a grievous error, for the ELECTION is NOT in and for themselves. We are ELECTED for ALL who are bound in UNBELIEF, that we by the grace of God might pluck some from the fire, even as our head died for us we are to die for others. Thus we are sent out to preach the Gospel not only to the Gentile but to the Jew also, for do we not see this very thing in that Christ ELECTED some to preach to the JEWS and some to preach to the GENTILES?
What need is there of preaching to the JEW today or even in the days of the apostles if God has locked them all up in unbelief with no hope in this age?  

bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #584 on: December 07, 2008, 07:53:23 PM »
Bob I think by avoiding using the term freewill is in part why FREEWILL discussions are so confusing. For me (to steal Taffy's phrase) by reading your post you do believe in FREEWILL, but because you do not use the term your posts a sometimes confusing at least to me because when I read you we seem to be saying the same thing.

Because most free will advocates I've encountered object to the idea of a caused choice saying things like "that is not a real choice, that's not a free choice, that's not free will... etc.".  And many scriptures use the term "will" so why should it be confusing?

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.  

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.



pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #585 on: December 07, 2008, 07:54:58 PM »
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Christ is the DAY Star which Rises in all men unto belief, HE IS the Resurrection Unto LIFE.....the Lock are for those still bound by their unbelief ,.

JUST WHY isnt this to do with BOTH Gentile and Jew....?

He came to SAVE that was LOST, and that which was LOST was HIM...For mine Hes Hidden in the regions of ALL men, till TIME reveals that which was hidden behind the veil

Graham I never looked at it that way before, but I agree for the light is in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not. Good inward application, but I still believe it has an outward application also.

Yo Scott :thumbsup:

I Normally see twofold  Bro, the natural or Outward and the Spiritual or Inward... :icon_flower:

Me to brother, your application is just one I had not seen yet, just goes to prove we have need of the whole body, you just happend to be my eyes today, maybe tommorrow I'll be yours :happygrin:  

Offline Taffy

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #586 on: December 07, 2008, 07:59:18 PM »
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Me to brother, your application is just one I had not seen yet, just goes to prove we have need of the whole body, you just happend to be my eyes today, maybe tommorrow I'll be yours

Yo , youve been an aid  to my eyes many Times Bro :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #587 on: December 07, 2008, 07:59:54 PM »
If there is no free will, then there is also no good and evil....
If we are robots controlled by God we don't do good or bad things.
We can't be creditted or punished for things we don't do ourselfs.

I fully agree, I don't hold to the idea that God goes around and makes us disobedient to His will, that would make God Schizophrenic, obey me but I am not go to let you obey me, eek gad.

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #588 on: December 07, 2008, 08:03:41 PM »
Bob I think by avoiding using the term freewill is in part why FREEWILL discussions are so confusing. For me (to steal Taffy's phrase) by reading your post you do believe in FREEWILL, but because you do not use the term your posts a sometimes confusing at least to me because when I read you we seem to be saying the same thing.

Because most free will advocates I've encountered object to the idea of a caused choice saying things like "that is not a real choice, that's not a free choice, that's not free will... etc.".  And many scriptures use the term "will" so why should it be confusing?

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.  

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.




Bob you do realsie those scripture have more to do with the will of God then of man correct.
Nothing there states man does not have a freewill.

But you were probably just pointing out that scripture does not use the term freewill that often but mostly just points out that it uses will.

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #589 on: December 07, 2008, 08:05:40 PM »
youngyuni, just wanted to say I have enjoyed your posts in this thread :thumbsup:

YoungYuni

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #590 on: December 07, 2008, 09:36:12 PM »
youngyuni, just wanted to say I have enjoyed your posts in this thread :thumbsup:

Hiya Pneuma!

Thank you!

I enjoy much of what I am reading from others including yourself.

I agree with your observation that a confusion is created when one exchanges the word, free will, for the word, will.

 :icon_jokercolor: :icon_joker:

YoungYuni

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #591 on: December 07, 2008, 09:36:54 PM »
Hello again!

More of my thoughts concerning free will in particular to this discussion.

If a man had an all powerful will, he may use it to force an intelligent sentient square block through a round hole. Just as some here have stated God has done concerning creation. However, one who needs to force his will upon another would make him a tyrant, and is not wise, knowledgable or understanding. Such a man, is a tyrant.

If a man had an all powerful will along with an all knowing understanding, he would never need to force or manipulate an intelligent sentient square block through a round hole. He would already know how the square block operates because he created the square block to fit within it's own parameters.

If he intended a square block to fit through a hole, it would not be round, it would be square.

If he intended for a square block to fit through a round hole, he would have created the square block without the knowledge that it was square. Then, knowing how that square block would operate with little or no knowledge of what it is, the square block would wear itself out trying to fit where it obviously does not belong; until, the block finds it's corners worn and then perfectly in such a round hole.

Man neither has a will that is all powerful, or all knowing. God is both all powerful, and all knowing.

I do not believe in a tyrant God, who must force upon creation His Will.

I believe in a intelligent God Who's Will is done intelligently and without violating the very thing He created.

Just because God is all powerful, does not mean He uses that power carelessly.

He set up natural and spiritual laws which work to keep us in balance, giving us awareness of the things we do not know so that we may choose what is right and true. We do something which is harmful, we experience pain to warn us to discontinue such action. We do something which is good, we experience joy to encourage such action. We reap what we sow.

I was simple in my explanation for understanding purposes, I do not want someone to make this an issue. I am conveying a general concept for the purpose of understanding how it works, without details of physics behind it.

God is complex, seemingly impossible to understand, and quite unfathomable by any mere human reasoning; however, I find that to fail to understand the simple things, a person will not understand the more complex things anyways.

Mankind has a free will, that has been prompted by it's ignorance of the knowledge of good and evil to sin. Through the process of sin, the knowledge of sin, the law, became understood.

The law, however, causes our sin to increase because the law never told us what was good, only what was evil and so we pursue it even more.

We recognize, by our free will, that the evil we do is the opposite to life because the wages of sin is death.

Death is a metaphor for ignorance of the truth, the dead know nothing.

However, where sin abounds, grace abounds even more. By that grace, we became aware of a different knowledge, a knowledge of good.

Whereas the evil we did brought us death, the good we do brings about life.

We are now aware of both the knowledge of good and evil and brought out of death, ignorance, into life, the knowledge of the truth.

Whereas it was inevitable for us to sin since we knew not what sin was. It is inevitable for us to be the righteousness of God, because we now know the knowledge of the truth.

This is the organic progress of a Child of God, and the Will of God for all mankind to endure. That by our free will, we make both good and evil choices bringing us closer to the knowledge of the truth in order to choose what is the acceptable, good and perfect Will of God for us. This, is what God intended and designed from before creation was even created.

All of this from Will of God, not from any man or his free will. By His grace, not by our works.

Romans 12:2
2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

James 1:25
25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Teeee! That was a long post. Sorry if I got carried away.

 :gangel: :cloud9:
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 10:33:41 PM by YoungYuni »

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #592 on: December 08, 2008, 02:13:51 AM »
Psalm 54:6
I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O LORD; for it is good.





bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #593 on: December 08, 2008, 05:23:06 AM »
Bob you do realsie those scripture have more to do with the will of God then of man correct.

But you were probably just pointing out that scripture does not use the term freewill that often but mostly just points out that it uses will.

Yes, I was just pointing out that the scriptures use the term "will" so it should not be confusing when I use the term.  I was not paying that much attention to the content of those verses, though I think they are as much about the will of man as the will of God (in the sense that they are saying those things were not by the will of man, but by the will of God).   But I was not using those verses to say anything about whether man has free will.

Quote
Nothing there states man does not have a freewill.

Honestly, I have NO way of knowing what you mean by "free will" anyway.  Do you see how YY described free will?  If I'm understaning correctly: God des not have free will because he can not change his mind, while man does have a free will because man can repent and change the course of his will.  I'm not faulting that defintion (at least he gave me a concrete definition so I know what he means).  I'm just pointing out that it is yet another of the sundry definitions of free will that I've encountered.

So let me ask you some questions:
1. Can God cause someone choose something, like say cause them to repent, without "violating" their free will?
2. Does God have free will?

bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #594 on: December 08, 2008, 05:43:41 AM »
Hello again!

More of my thoughts concerning free will in particular to this discussion.

That was a good description YY.  I think that close to what I believe.  We are mostly just using different terminology.  I have to say though, based on my experience, in some circles this quote would not be deemed free will because of the "inevitable" part:

"Whereas it was inevitable for us to sin since we knew not what sin was. It is inevitable for us to be the righteousness of God, because we now know the knowledge of the truth."

Some would say, it was not inevitable for Adam & Eve to sin otherwise they were not free, nor it is inevitable that sinners to repent, otherwise they are not free.



Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #595 on: December 08, 2008, 05:51:30 AM »
willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

If there is no free will, then there is also no good and evil....

 :Yeahright:   On what do base this conclusion WW?  Good and Evil are not ESTABLISHED by "our will" being "FREE"!

Good and Evil have been ESTABLISHED by the IMPRISONMENT of our WILL to self which MISCHOOSES and produces DISOBEDIENCE which brings forth SIN... (See Adam & Eve, exercising their "wills" which, IN BONDAGE to themselves... produced SIN and DISOBEDIENCE - and which "will" is inherited by ALL MEN)...

CHRIST's OBEDIENCE was ESTABLISHED in His life and Deeds as His DEEDS were ...ALWAYS...  found COINCIDING with GOD's WILL, not His own will!  How can you NOT see this? :dunno:

The only way the WORD establishes FREEDOM in us, is when WE do the same as did the Savior, by doing the WILL of YHVH which Commands OBEDIENCE, ...NOT, our own, which CHOOSES DISOBEDIENCE...  :dontknow:

The SAVIOR did NOTHING but the WILL of YHVH... He NEVER did "his own"...

WHY?   :dunno2:

Because He would've thereby fallen into the SAME BONDAGE (of SELFISHNESS) that ALL other men find themselves... which is the DISOBEDIENCE, found OUTSIDE and CONTRARY to the command of GOD...

If we are robots controlled by God we don't do good or bad things.

Robots?? Please...  :laughing7:

Your fingers DO as your HEAD decides,  does this make your fingers "ROBOTS"?  :dontknow:

Your eyes DO as your HEAD decides, ...does this make your eyes "ROBOTS"?  :dontknow:

God's BODY is no different... CHRIST is the HEAD... and the HEAD decides the things which are done by His BODY... within HIS PURPOSE for them...

This will be the ETERNAL state of ALL THINGS... they shall be found FOREVER coinciding with the WILL of GOD, ...not independent of it, SELFISHLY proclaiming there is FREEDOM in that [disobedient] "INDEPENDENCE"! :rolleye:

We can't be creditted or punished for things we don't do ourselfs.

We are NOT to be "credited" for doing anything WW... It is CHRIST which garners ALL "credit"...

We DO NOT, and CANNOT, ...GAIN favor with GOD by our WORKS... only by submitting to CHRIST by DIEING to SELF, do WORKS which proceed from our lives, become in a "favorable light" before GOD...

We are to obtain from CHRIST the GARMENT of His life (His WORKS)... that the NAKEDNESS of our SHAME (our works) does not APPEAR (Rev 3:18)

We obtain, by letting go... We LET GO of "our [imprisoned] will", and OBTAIN His [which MAKES us free - FREE from what? FREE from US and our imprisoned "will"]...  :happygrin:

                                                           


PeacE...
...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 06:03:02 AM by willieH »

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #596 on: December 08, 2008, 05:58:41 AM »
35Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

 36While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

 37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

 38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

42Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

 43For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.


--John 12

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #597 on: December 08, 2008, 06:09:53 AM »
Quote
CHRIST's OBEDIENCE was ESTABLISHED in His life and Deeds as His DEEDS were ...ALWAYS...  found COINCIDING with GOD's WILL, not His own will!  How can you NOT see this?

The only way the WORD establishes FREEDOM in us, is when WE do the same as did the Savior, by doing the WILL of YHVH which Commands OBEDIENCE, ...NOT, our own, which CHOOSES DISOBEDIENCE... 

The SAVIOR did NOTHING but the WILL of YHVH... He NEVER did "his own"...

You are admitting here Jesus could have done his own will.  That's free choice.  That's free will.

Otherwise, the word 'obedience' is meaningless.

Quote
Your fingers DO as your HEAD decides,  does this make your fingers "ROBOTS"? 

Yes my fingers are the robots of my mind.  And the day that they are not I will be paralyzed.or have Parkinson's or some dread disease.


Quote
God's BODY is no different... CHRIST is the HEAD... and the HEAD decides the things which are done by His BODY... within HIS PURPOSE for them...

Christ is a hologram, every part contains the whole picture.  I am not to be the finger of a mythical body, although that is one way to look at it in metaphor.  I am to be the whole thing, the complete package--just men made perfect.

Quote
.We are NOT to be "credited" for doing anything WW... It is CHRIST which garners ALL "credit"...

It is not the fault of Christ when I mess up like Peter, but when I succeed, yes, he will get all the credit.


Offline jabcat

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #598 on: December 08, 2008, 06:29:16 AM »
Here's how I understand it, and it seems to me this is in an area of understanding where "all roads converge"....
God arranges circumstances; 
allows choices (good and/or evil) within His plans and will; 
requires me to choose one of the options;
holds me accountable for my choices;
teaches me through/about my choices (including corrective punishment);
and thereby leads me where He intends for me to go;
= I plan my way, but God directs my steps.
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way; but the LORD directeth his steps.

Seems to me that's scripture...my will is not "free"...I have a limited will; I make choices; but God is ultimately, finally, in control, and things will ultimately be according to His will.  Maybe this is one of the reasons the term "free will" is not in the Bible   :coolsmile:

Now, would anyone like to discuss the "rapture"?  :laughing7:

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 06:43:02 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #599 on: December 08, 2008, 07:01:34 AM »
Sure it's in the Bible. How can you give a freewill offering without free will?

Freewill offering
"A spontaneous gift (Ex. 35:29), a voluntary sacrifice (Lev." "22:23; Ezra 3:5), as opposed to one in consequence of a vow, or" in expiation of some offence. ...

"An offering compelled by the desire to thank God for his bountiful care."


29 So the people of Israel—every man and woman who was eager to help in the work the Lord had given them through Moses—brought their gifts and gave them freely to the Lord.

--Ex 35

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 07:06:07 AM by Molly »