God says He locks up all together in stubbornness (Romans 11:32).
The majority of you say basically Paul is mistaken. God hasn't locked anyone up. God has opened the door!
Tony we are NOT saying Paul is mistaken, we are saying God locked them up in their own unbelief, here we agree with you, but we add that Jesus came to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Lu.4:18-19
Remember Tony God did not lock them up in Romans Paul was explaining how and why they were locked up in the Old Testament under the LAW. Thus Jesus came to give sight to the BLIND and DELIEVER the CAPTIVES.
So as they were locked up in the Old Testament as scripture shows us and you believe the door is stilled locked to them today please explain then how some Jews are set at liberty?
For we read
And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
Dear pneuma, that is not true. Of course God began to lock them up in stubbornness in Isaiah's day which both Christ and Paul attest to in their day in which the blinding continued.
that was before Israel was cast away:
Rom 11:15 For if their casting away is the conciliation of the world, what will the taking back be if not life from among the dead?
Paul showed a present reality of locking up here:
Rom 11:30-31 For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness, (31) thus these also are now stubborn
to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy."
Paul was not writing about what was happening in the Old testament but NOW, in their day.
pneuma quoted: Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Thus we see that the Jew that believes is set free in Christ, thus the door is open by Christ, for Paul goes on to say
Dear pneuma, The remnant that God did not harden believed. But they did not believe because they excercised some sort of free will but due to God opening up their eyes, ears and heart. Paul makes a case in point that:
Rom 11:4-5 But what is that which apprises saying to him? I left for Myself seven thousand men who do not bow the knee to the image of Baal. (5) Thus, then, in the current era also, there has come to be a remnant according to the choice of grace
." So the rest God hardened according as it is written:
Rom 11:8 even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day
So we see, dear brother, that God locked up the rest in stubbornness and the remnant He was merciful to.
pneuma continueth: Romans 10:11-15
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him (referring to both Jew and Greek as seen in verse 12) shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever (both of the Jew and the Greek) shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
But why do they believe on Him if they do? It is because they are the remnant God saved for Himself and whom God gave faith to be believing. They didn't just believe without God giving them faith as if they, out of some sort of free will believed without God first giving them faith.
Paul then goes on to tell us how those who are locked up in their own unbelief come to call on the name of the Lord.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Dear pneuma, you are mixing up the scriptures and taking them out of context. Those who are locked up in stubbornness cannot possibly believe for they are not the remnant according to the choice of grace. They must await the Redeemer out of Zion and THUS ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. All Israel has never been saved. Right now the nations are in God's grace. Israel is hardened UNTIL the complement of the nations enter (Romans 11:25).
pneuma wrote: And this all a prelude to Ro.11 were it is shown that the natural branch is gaffed back in V.23
And I s'pose you believe that is a free will response if they remain grafted in. It has to do with God's kindness, not free will. The natural brance will be grafted back in later in verse 11:25 once the complement of the nations enters. Until then they remain OUT.
Tony wrote: So, please, take your scissors and cut out Romans 11:32 because it does not agree with your theology. What God shuts no man can open. Man is not free to become unlocked from God's prison. Man must wait for the Redeemer.
[/quote]pneuma replied: Brother the REDEEMER has come.
Tony if the redeemer has not yet come for the Jews as you say then the Jews were correct in their belief that Jesus Christ was NOT their Messiah and they are correct to wait for Him( their Messiah) to come. Brother that is exactly what you are tell any Jew that might read this thread, that thier Messiah has not yet come but will come for them in the future. Please pray and think about that, and I hope I have not caused you any offence by my words.[/quote]
Oh dear me. pneuma, pneuma, pneuma, I don't know where to begin. Of course the Redeemer came before Paul believed. Paul was writing after the Redeemer died and went up into heaven in Romans. In Romans the nations are now in God's favor and Israel set aside. Paul now writes years after Christ came and went that when the Redeemer comes out of Zion that ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED
(that's future tense brother.) In the future, after Paul wrote that, the Redeemer will come and all Israel shall be saved.
So why is it so hard for people to believe God will save all? Because they can't until God gives it to them to believe.
pneuma replied: No one is arguing that Tony, but God has given and is giving them to believe by the preaching of the Gospel, both by His Son and by His sons. They are free just as we are if they but believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. That why verse 23 states
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Tony's reply: But they will continue to abide in unbelief UNTIL the complement of the nations enter which has not happened yet. There are still people being added to the body of Christ from the nations. Once that body is complete then Israel will be grafted back in to the olive tree.