Author Topic: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?  (Read 45105 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #450 on: December 04, 2008, 07:03:53 PM »
 40 Peter said many other things to warn them. He begged them, "Save yourselves from these evil people." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized. About 3,000 people joined the believers that day.

--Acts 2


"begged"


G3870
παρακαλέω
parakaleō
par-ak-al-eh'-o
From G3844 and G2564; to call near, that is, invite, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation): - beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire, (give) exhort (-ation), intreat, pray.


"exhort"

To make urgent appeal.




Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #451 on: December 04, 2008, 07:05:50 PM »
Nathan are you talking about avoiding the grave?


Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #452 on: December 04, 2008, 07:12:17 PM »

Although I'm not talking about 'ascending into heaven,' if he can do it, and if he is in you, don't you think you can do it, too?


In what way?   Have you done it?   Explain what you mean exactly.


  I'm doing it right now.  (So is Nathan.)



22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


--Hebrews 12


Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #453 on: December 04, 2008, 07:16:06 PM »

Although I'm not talking about 'ascending into heaven,' if he can do it, and if he is in you, don't you think you can do it, too?


In what way?   Have you done it?   Explain what you mean exactly.


  I'm doing it right now.  (So is Nathan.)



22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


--Hebrews 12


Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


So whats happening?    I hear this a lot, and it always goes along with choice, yet, I always feel I am being left out,  What choice do I need to make?   How,  explain, how do I know it's happening also?

If it's not what am I doing wrong?

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #454 on: December 04, 2008, 07:27:31 PM »

Although I'm not talking about 'ascending into heaven,' if he can do it, and if he is in you, don't you think you can do it, too?


In what way?   Have you done it?   Explain what you mean exactly.


  I'm doing it right now.  (So is Nathan.)



22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


--Hebrews 12


Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


So whats happening?    I hear this a lot, and it always goes along with choice, yet, I always feel I am being left out,  What choice do I need to make?   How,  explain, how do I know it's happening also?

If it's not what am I doing wrong?


Wait on Him.  Have patience.  Abide in him.  Stay in the Word.




Psalm 27:14
Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.





Genesis 49:18
I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.



"thy salvation"
H3444
ישׁוּעה
y'shû‛âh
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.




I have waited for Y'shu'ah, O LORD.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #455 on: December 04, 2008, 07:29:40 PM »

Although I'm not talking about 'ascending into heaven,' if he can do it, and if he is in you, don't you think you can do it, too?


In what way?   Have you done it?   Explain what you mean exactly.


  I'm doing it right now.  (So is Nathan.)



22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


--Hebrews 12


Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


So whats happening?    I hear this a lot, and it always goes along with choice, yet, I always feel I am being left out,  What choice do I need to make?   How,  explain, how do I know it's happening also?

If it's not what am I doing wrong?


Wait on Him.  Have patience.  Abide in him.  Stay in the Word.




Psalm 27:14
Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.





Genesis 49:18
I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.



"thy salvation"
H3444
ישׁוּעה
y'shû‛âh
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.




I have waited for Y'shu'ah, O LORD.



So doing nothing is doing something?


Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #456 on: December 04, 2008, 07:44:13 PM »

Although I'm not talking about 'ascending into heaven,' if he can do it, and if he is in you, don't you think you can do it, too?


In what way?   Have you done it?   Explain what you mean exactly.


  I'm doing it right now.  (So is Nathan.)



22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


--Hebrews 12


Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


So whats happening?    I hear this a lot, and it always goes along with choice, yet, I always feel I am being left out,  What choice do I need to make?   How,  explain, how do I know it's happening also?

If it's not what am I doing wrong?


Wait on Him.  Have patience.  Abide in him.  Stay in the Word.




Psalm 27:14
Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.





Genesis 49:18
I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.



"thy salvation"
H3444
ישׁוּעה
y'shû‛âh
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.




I have waited for Y'shu'ah, O LORD.



So doing nothing is doing something?



Do I look to you like I am doing nothing?

1 Corinthians 9:24
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

--1 Cor 9


"they which run"
G5143
τρέχω
trechō
trekh'-o
Apparently a primary verb (properly θρέχω threchō; compare G2359); which uses δρέμω dremō, drem'-o (the base of G1408) as an alternate in certain tenses; to run or walk hastily (literally or figuratively): - have course, run.


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #457 on: December 04, 2008, 07:48:01 PM »

Although I'm not talking about 'ascending into heaven,' if he can do it, and if he is in you, don't you think you can do it, too?


In what way?   Have you done it?   Explain what you mean exactly.


  I'm doing it right now.  (So is Nathan.)



22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


--Hebrews 12


Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


So whats happening?    I hear this a lot, and it always goes along with choice, yet, I always feel I am being left out,  What choice do I need to make?   How,  explain, how do I know it's happening also?

If it's not what am I doing wrong?


Wait on Him.  Have patience.  Abide in him.  Stay in the Word.




Psalm 27:14
Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.





Genesis 49:18
I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.



"thy salvation"
H3444
ישׁוּעה
y'shû‛âh
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.




I have waited for Y'shu'ah, O LORD.



So doing nothing is doing something?



Do I look to you like I am doing nothing?

1 Corinthians 9:24
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

--1 Cor 9


"they which run"
G5143
τρέχω
trechō
trekh'-o
Apparently a primary verb (properly θρέχω threchō; compare G2359); which uses δρέμω dremō, drem'-o (the base of G1408) as an alternate in certain tenses; to run or walk hastily (literally or figuratively): - have course, run.



No far from it, your going around in circles.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #458 on: December 04, 2008, 07:56:19 PM »
1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Haven't I seen Jesus our Lord? Aren't you the result of my work for the Lord? 2 Even though others may not think of me as an apostle, I am certainly one to you! You are the proof that I am the Lord's apostle. 3 That is what I say to stand up for myself when people judge me.

 4 Don't we have the right to eat and drink? 5 Don't we have the right to take a believing wife with us when we travel? The other apostles do. The Lord's brothers do. Peter does. 6 Or are Barnabas and I the only ones who have to work for a living?

 7 Who serves as a soldier but doesn't get paid? Who plants a vineyard but doesn't eat any of its grapes? Who takes care of a flock but doesn't drink any of the milk? 8 Do I say that from only a human point of view? The Law says the same thing.

 9 Here is what is written in the Law of Moses. "Do not stop an ox from eating while it helps separate the grain from the straw."(Deuteronomy 25:4) Is it oxen that God is concerned about? 10 Doesn't he say that for us? Yes, it was written for us. When a farmer plows and separates the grain, he does it because he hopes to share in the crop.

 11 We have planted spiritual seed among you. Is it too much to ask that we receive from you some of the things we need? 12 Others have the right to receive help from you. Don't we have even more right to do so?

   But we didn't use that right. No, we have put up with everything. We didn't want to keep the good news of Christ from spreading.

 13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple? Don't you know that those who serve at the altar eat from what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, those who preach the good news should receive their living from their work. That is what the Lord has commanded.

 15 But I haven't used any of those rights. And I'm not writing because I hope you will do things like that for me. I would rather die than have anyone take away my pride in my work. 16 But when I preach the good news, I can't brag. I have to preach it. How terrible it will be for me if I do not preach the good news!

 17 If I preach because I want to, I get a reward. If I preach because I have to, I'm only doing my duty. 18 Then what reward do I get? Here is what it is. I am able to preach the good news free of charge. And I can do it without making use of my rights when I preach it.

 19 I am free. I don't belong to anyone. But I make myself a slave to everyone. I do it to win as many as I can to Christ.

 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew. That was to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one who was under the law, even though I myself am not under the law. That was to win those under the law. 21 To those who don't have the law I became like one who doesn't have the law. I am not free from God's law. I am under Christ's law. Now I can win those who don't have the law. 22 To those who are weak I became weak. That was to win the weak.

   I have become all things to all people so that in all possible ways I might save some. 23 I do all of that because of the good news. And I want to share in its blessings.

 24 In a race all the runners run. But only one gets the prize. You know that, don't you? So run in a way that will get you the prize. 25 All who take part in the games train hard. They do it to get a crown that will not last. But we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

 26 So I do not run like someone who doesn't run toward the finish line. I do not fight like a boxer who hits nothing but air. 27 No, I train my body and bring it under control. Then after I have preached to others, I myself will not break the rules and fail to win the prize.

--1 Cor 9

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #459 on: December 04, 2008, 08:19:43 PM »
Quote from: Tony
Dear Molly, the best translations have ". . . led captivity captive." Jesus did not lead a line of prisoners to heaven when He ascended. He ascended only by Himself.

He freed the prisoners.  If you are being led by Jesus, you are free. 

This is what Jesus himself told the Jews was fulfilled in your hearing today.

Dear Molly, The same man that penned "He captures captivity" also wrote that "God locks up all in stubbornness." And he wrote it after Christ died and rose all by Himself into heaven.
It is obvious that since all who do not believe are locked up in stubbornness (unpersuadableness) that they not yet freed them from that prison. They cannot be freed until God has mercy on them. Please read the whole context:

Rom 11:30-32  For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness,  (31)  thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy."  (32)  For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all."

They can't unlock themselves by any free will. Yes, Jesus captured captivity. And yes, God showed mercy to us and unlocked us from our stubbornness and so now we believe. But we could not believe had God not unlocked our minds first.


Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #460 on: December 04, 2008, 08:36:38 PM »
Paul, you're actually not that far off with the doing nothing thing.  

My mind gives me confidence.  That confidence puffs up my ego.  My ego does not grasp spiritual Truth, it relies on "knowledge" more than revelation through relationship.  So when someone approaches me with a different point of view, my "mind" puts up a defense that does two things.  It justifies "why" I'm confident, and it tries to tear down another's ideal.  If I can convince you that I'm right, then my confidence in my knowledge is even greater.  

Then Jesus comes along and says . . . everything you think is true, is just the opposite.  Everything you think is up . .because that makes sense to you . . .is truthfully down.  That which you think comes first (and this almost always begins with self-justification) is actually last.

Then those who don't want to look like fools will try to cover themselves and attempt to convince you they have an understanding of what that means.  The truth is, none of us can gain any real truth through our own means.  My laboring mind will try to claim knowledge mainly because it has so many receipts to show for all of it's efforts of gaining wisdom.  

These things I speak of are not things that are to be proven in Scripture.  Just look at all of the topics on this forum already and how there are such great caverns that appear between many of us. Just the concept of UR and ET alone is all the evidence needed to confirm the difficulties when people use Scripture to confront each other.  "Somebody" is relying on their laboring mind . . .and may I venture so far as to say that it could very possibly be "both" sides.  In fact, I know it is . . .because if we are all truly "in" the spirit, we'd know that the days of warfare were only affective when we lived in the 6-day mentality of the laboring man.  But when we pursue the Sabbath, those weapons of warfare are transformed into plowshares.  

I don't think it was ever Jesus' intention to lay a new foundation so that we could gain or achieve wisdom by mentally reasoning it all out.  He quoted Scripture to those who would not choose to accept in faith his message to get them to be aware that "he" was "truth".  And to those who "were" willing to take him at his word without looking for "proof", they were the ones that became the leaders later on.

"This" is where I believe the bride is being led into.  She's not looking for a fight anymore, but she's finding her authority in the person of rest.  And it's from this seated position that she is now able to accomplish so much more than she ever could when battling in warfare.

So yeah, in a sense, it's a choice . .but even then, some can choose to "want" to walk in the spirit, but bring their reasoning minds with them.  You want to be a forerunner for the message of Christ?  It's not going to cost you an arm and a leg, just your head.

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #461 on: December 04, 2008, 09:01:11 PM »
Willie contrary to what you think I do understand what you are saying, I just disagree with it.

Do you remember the thread awhile back that was locked and how some here stated Christ died for people in another realm? And how you and I both said if this was so then there was no need for Christ to have died in this realm 2000 years ago?

Now you are saying the same thing as they did by stating Christ died in a realm you call eternity before He ever created the world. Go figure

Anyway bro, I said my peace and even though you think I am blind and God will eventually open my eyes, you still have not shown ONE scripture that states SIN is of GOD, yes you supplied some scriptures that you think IMPLY SIN is of GOD but that is only your assumption of what they say.

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #462 on: December 04, 2008, 09:02:12 PM »
Tony I could be wrong but you seem to follow Knoch's view of things.
If so that's where we differ.

Christ is the DOOR brother and He is OPEN to ALL that call upon His name, and this is seen in that some who were locked up once they came to know Christ as the DOOR were gathered back in. Just because Ro.11 was written after Christ death bro does not mean the DOOR is locked to the JEWS, Paul was explaining to everyone why God had cast them away, he was not saying they are still cast away because he goes on to say that they are gathered back in if they believed in what Christ had done for them.





Quote
They can't unlock themselves by any free will. Yes, Jesus captured captivity. And yes, God showed mercy to us and unlocked us from our stubbornness and so now we believe. But we could not believe had God not unlocked our minds first.

Tony that's NOT what me and MOLLY are saying, we are saying CHRIST unlocked the door and now we are to use our will and walk through the door HE UNLOCKED.

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #463 on: December 04, 2008, 09:06:42 PM »
cringing when I quote this . .. but doing it anyway.

John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.  2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

OOOOOH . . . . . a better one than that!!!

Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Take a minute and read the chapter leading up to this and you'll see that indeed, MANY have gone on ahead of us and ARE among us right now, only in a dimension my natural eyes can not see.  But they are there none the less and yes, I do believe they ARE the cloud that Christ is connected with. Not a natural cloud at all.  But a cloud of saints . . .that's a large number of people/spirits.  

And I do believe the captivity led captive thing is also dealing with headless souls . . .martyred souls . . .there are souls being "held" beneath the altar waiting for the maturity of all things to come so they can be released.  They have been given white robes and an instruction not to "wait" but to "rest" a little longer until all things come into completion.  It's where my mind went when I lost it.  And it's been purified and clothed, a new identity has been given.

Ephesians 2
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus


 :thumbsup:

Amen Nathan, I see our spirit and soul being raised up in Christ to await the redemption of our bodies.





Tony the reason David is still in the grave brother is because he also awaits the redemption of his body imo.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #464 on: December 04, 2008, 09:24:48 PM »
13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple? Don't you know that those who serve at the altar eat from what is offered on the altar?

--1 Cor 9


47 " I assure you: Anyone who believes  has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna  in the wilderness,  and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that anyone may eat of it and not die.  51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live  forever.  The bread that I will give for the life  of the world is My flesh."

    52 At that, the Jews argued  among themselves,  "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"
--John 6

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #465 on: December 04, 2008, 09:29:47 PM »
Tony I could be wrong but you seem to follow Knoch's view of things.
If so that's where we differ.

I won't hold it against you that you do not seem to follow Knoch's view of things.  :laughing7:

Quote
Christ is the DOOR brother and He is OPEN to ALL that call upon His name, and this is seen in that some who were locked up once they came to know Christ as the DOOR were gathered back in. Just because Ro.11 was written after Christ death bro does not mean the DOOR is locked to the JEWS, Paul was explaining to everyone why God had cast them away, he was not saying they are still cast away because he goes on to say that they are gathered back in if they believed in what Christ had done for them.





Quote
They can't unlock themselves by any free will. Yes, Jesus captured captivity. And yes, God showed mercy to us and unlocked us from our stubbornness and so now we believe. But we could not believe had God not unlocked our minds first.

Tony that's NOT what me and MOLLY are saying, we are saying CHRIST unlocked the door and now we are to use our will and walk through the door HE UNLOCKED.

pneuma, Christ did not unlock the door of the prison in which God has CURRENTLY LOCKED UP ALL IN UNBELIEF. They will not be unlocked until Israel's Redeemer arrives out of Zion AND THUS ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED and not one whit till then.

You state "Christ is the door" as if that solves your dilemma. But door of WHAT? He is the door of the sheep (John 10:7). Christ did not say "I am the door of the prison."

 Of course the door is locked to the Jews. If it was open they would believe.

Act 14:27 "Now coming along and gathering the ecclesia, they informed them of whatever God does with them, and that He opens to the nations a door of faith."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #466 on: December 04, 2008, 09:49:09 PM »

Then those who don't want to look like fools will try to cover themselves and attempt to convince you they have an understanding of what that means.


Amen

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #467 on: December 04, 2008, 10:48:48 PM »
Quote from: Tony
You state "Christ is the door" as if that solves your dilemma. But door of WHAT? He is the door of the sheep (John 10:7). Christ did not say "I am the door of the prison."


9I am the door, through me if any one may come in, he shall be saved, and he shall come in, and go out, and find pasture.

--John 10

Quote
pneuma, Christ did not unlock the door of the prison in which God has CURRENTLY LOCKED UP ALL IN UNBELIEF. They will not be unlocked until Israel's Redeemer arrives out of Zion AND THUS ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED and not one whit till then.

And what about those who worship satan?

 

Revelation 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.





Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #468 on: December 04, 2008, 11:19:54 PM »
These things I speak of are not things that are to be proven in Scripture.


Partly true.   what I have come to see now is that I think all we will ever know in this life is contained in scripture. 

The issue you speak of whether you agree with me or not is that I cannot just open the bible show you a scripture and prove it to you, but it is there.

People misunderstand spiritual discernment.   People talk about it, people use it to to slight another person in a argument or discussion by pointing out that since someone is not understanding or believing what they say, they say it must be spiritually discerned.  So of course, someone who doesn't believe them must not be spiritually discerning.  Well, I believe spiritual discernment is a real thing, but if its real in our lives, then we do not need to use it in the manner of trying to convince someone of something that they cannot just choose to have.

If spiritual discernment is a choice from our ability, then it would not be a problem to teach and instruct someone how to do it.  No one can, they only try in the manner you spoke of.

I'm just as accountable for doing all of the above, but I am at a point now where I have nothing to prove because I simply have faith that my walk is the walk that God intends for me.   I must move on and if someone needs me to explain what it is i am doing then I must simply continue to walk in the faith that God will show them one day what it is they should do.

The waiting part is not a solution, it is only a result of faith.   It is impossible to teach someone else how to have faith because we are not the providers of it.

I run the race, even if physically I see no evidence that it is worth my time.  That is the hardest thing to ever do.   But, as much as I want to be the one running, there is no running "till" Christ has chosen me to be in it.

In short, people will believe in the gospel of ultimate reconciliation when God has it planned for them to do so.  People will walk in the spirit when they move from being called to being chosen.

In the meantime, the only real meat we can physically manifest to show anyone else is to DO.

Do what? Someone will ask.   Tell others of the hope that we know and live a genuine life that shows what we believe, rather than going round and round hoping we simply convince ourself.


   




Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #469 on: December 05, 2008, 12:09:30 AM »
"So Mote It Be": Modernly translated as "So be it." It is used by many Wiccans in the way that other faiths use "Amen", which is translated as "let it be". Therefore the meanings are much the same. [Not quite.  This is from a Wiccan definition.  Let's look at Greek and Hebrew translations for 'amen']



"Amen"

G281
ἀμήν
amēn
am-ane'
Of Hebrew origin [H543]; properly firm, that is, (figuratively) trustworthy; adverbially surely (often as interjection so be it): - amen, verily.



"Amen"

H543
אמן
'âmên
aw-mane'
From H539; sure; abstractly faithfulness; adverbially truly: - Amen, so be it, truth.



So does satan want passive Christians?




When i find myself in times of trouble
Mother mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
And in my hour of darkness
She is standing right in front of me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
Let it be, let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

And when the broken hearted people
Living in the world agree,
There will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be parted there is
Still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be. yeah
There will be an answer, let it be.

And when the night is cloudy,
There is still a light that shines on me,
Shine on until tomorrow, let it be.
I wake up to the sound of music
Mother mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
Let it be, let it be.
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be,
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.


--John Lennon
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 12:16:29 AM by Molly »

bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #470 on: December 05, 2008, 12:57:37 AM »
Just because Ro.11 was written after Christ death bro does not mean the DOOR is locked to the JEWS, Paul was explaining to everyone why God had cast them away, he was not saying they are still cast away because he goes on to say that they are gathered back in if they believed in what Christ had done for them.

The ones that did not believe were still blinded by God.

  • Romans 11:8
    (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.


Offline Taffy

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #471 on: December 05, 2008, 01:11:34 AM »
Just because Ro.11 was written after Christ death bro does not mean the DOOR is locked to the JEWS, Paul was explaining to everyone why God had cast them away, he was not saying they are still cast away because he goes on to say that they are gathered back in if they believed in what Christ had done for them.

The ones that did not believe were still blinded by God.

  • Romans 11:8
    (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.


God Or Satan?
2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #472 on: December 05, 2008, 01:34:27 AM »
These things I speak of are not things that are to be proven in Scripture.


Partly true.   what I have come to see now is that I think all we will ever know in this life is contained in scripture. 

The issue you speak of whether you agree with me or not is that I cannot just open the bible show you a scripture and prove it to you, but it is there.

People misunderstand spiritual discernment.   People talk about it, people use it to to slight another person in a argument or discussion by pointing out that since someone is not understanding or believing what they say, they say it must be spiritually discerned.  So of course, someone who doesn't believe them must not be spiritually discerning.  Well, I believe spiritual discernment is a real thing, but if its real in our lives, then we do not need to use it in the manner of trying to convince someone of something that they cannot just choose to have.

If spiritual discernment is a choice from our ability, then it would not be a problem to teach and instruct someone how to do it.  No one can, they only try in the manner you spoke of.

I'm just as accountable for doing all of the above, but I am at a point now where I have nothing to prove because I simply have faith that my walk is the walk that God intends for me.   I must move on and if someone needs me to explain what it is i am doing then I must simply continue to walk in the faith that God will show them one day what it is they should do.

The waiting part is not a solution, it is only a result of faith.   It is impossible to teach someone else how to have faith because we are not the providers of it.

I run the race, even if physically I see no evidence that it is worth my time.  That is the hardest thing to ever do.   But, as much as I want to be the one running, there is no running "till" Christ has chosen me to be in it.

In short, people will believe in the gospel of ultimate reconciliation when God has it planned for them to do so.  People will walk in the spirit when they move from being called to being chosen.

In the meantime, the only real meat we can physically manifest to show anyone else is to DO.

Do what? Someone will ask.   Tell others of the hope that we know and live a genuine life that shows what we believe, rather than going round and round hoping we simply convince ourself.


   





I totally see what you're sharing.  And I agree.  One can not teach another what one spiritually sees.  But one can share what is seen and in faith, see that sharing as an act of planting.  Understanding does come because the word of truth does not return void.  It always reproduces more after it's own kind.

Revelation can't be taught . .however, having said that . . I believe, especially if we see ourselves as forerunners, we need to be equipped with tools that do more than "just" expecting others to take our word for what we shared to be spiritual truth.  I think we "can" teach the patterns . .but after that . . .it's still all God who actually makes those patterns come to life and fit into the reader or listener.  Really, all that's required is a hungry heart.  If people are willing to receive, manna comes.

Which also saddens me to see how the churches seem to spend most of their time and energy preserving the manna that fell yesterday and not embracing the manna that God is bringing today.  I think the Bible is the second greatest gift God gave to man, aside from Christ himself.  But at the same time, I think the Bible is also the biggest stumbling block for so many believers as well.  

Love exploded across the land back in the first century, today . . .it's religion that get's the attention, rather than the relationship with the source of life and love.  It's great to know the word . . .but how liberating are we if all we do is embrace something written to someone 2000 years ago?  It is a huge asset (using Scripture) when revelating about Christ.  The Word is not the final word, but a springboard 'into" the Word.   Again, he is the volume of the book.  Just as there is an endless supply of water beneath the crust, the surface of the earth, I believe there are also endless revelations that illuminate the nature and identity of Christ in us, and we in him.

Beneath the surface of the stories and events recorded, there is a continual pronouncement of the soverignty and redemptive work between God and man.  Pursue the spirit . . .always and forever.

bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #473 on: December 05, 2008, 01:35:14 AM »
God Or Satan?

According to Isaiah, it was God.

  • Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. KJV
  • Isaiah 29:10 For poured out on you hath Jehovah a spirit of deep sleep, And He closeth your eyes -- the prophets, And your heads -- the seers -- He covered. YLT

SQ

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #474 on: December 05, 2008, 02:15:20 AM »
Why is it so hard for some to believe all go to heaven one day?
From my standpoint.. it is hard for most to believe all means all, in due time.
You can show the scriptures and the folks still will tell you all don't mean all.
 I am believing their eyes and ears hasn't been open yet.