willieH: Hi Scott...
You don't get it, and if I know our conversations, after this one, you still won't... even if I should post an entire book on a given subject...
but nevertheless, here are a few comments:
You and I did not "fall into sin", because we invented the idea, or even because it was an option that we might enact of OUR descretion or decision... we "fell into sin" because it is WRITTEN that we DO SO... (Rom 3:23 / Ps 14:3)
Hi Willie, neither Ro. Nor Ps. Says that it is written that man would fall into sin all according to Gods plan. Show me ONE scripture brother that says God is the author of sin and you might be able to convince me, but well you look for ONE just remember I already showed SIN is of the DEVIL. Please don't tell me you are making God and the Devil the same being or that God has fellowship with the Devil.
You asked:Col 1:20 For BY HIM were ...ALL THINGS created... [to include EVIL and the parameters of its result - sin and death], that are in Heaven, and that are in Earth, visible, and invisible, whether they be THRONES, or DOMINIONS, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS [whichever you wish to categorize evil, sin and death, they fit in any of them]... ALL THINGS [including evil, sin, death] were created BY HIM and FOR HIM...
Before I begin with my answer of the rest... it is my observation that ...the "devil" is NOT
a "BEING"... IT [not "he"] is the ADVERSITY of the FLESHLY "will" and desires of MAN in his NATURAL EARTHY and PHYSICAL state... (I realize you do not embrace this, and that does not matter to me)...
OKAY, a few questions:
1. WHO created EVIL Scott? ...(hint: GOD)
2. WHO decided what SIN, ...IS? ...(hint: GOD)
3. WHO notes in HIS WORD
which is ETERNAL, that ALL (including those prior to this writing and ALL those after it's appearance in time)... HAVE SINNED [past tense]? ...(hint: GOD)
4. There is no "devil"...there is ADVERSITY which is the WILL of MAN... which behaves and reacts to the desires of his FLESH... Which takes place in the NATURAL state in which he was CREATED, ...by Whom? ...(hint: GOD)
5. ALL THINGS are created BY CHRIST
... including ALL the examples of EVIL which HE created and designated as EVIL... and find their creation emerging from? ...(hint: GOD)
See? I am 99% positive that you will object to all of this, so in essence, I'm speaking to the wall (no offense bro --
I post this because it IS possible, that maybe others might hear that which I am proposing...
It was DECLARED in ETERNITY, that CHRIST die to redeem MAN from SIN, ...BEFORE... man "sinned" in the midst of TIME... Which notes that man was PREDESTINED to sin BY GOD... NOT that he "chose" it to be so aside from GOD within his erroneously supposed, "free will"...
For there would be no SIN, nor would creation necessitate a SAVIOR slain from its foundation, if it was NOT designated to be so, emerging from the CREATOR as HIS DECLARATION...
Willie this is the area I mentioned earlier about people mixing up the age which is to come with the ages past and present.
What I said earlier
And it is to this I believe the problem of free will stems, people are mixing up the ages of past and present with the age that is to come when God will create a new heaven and earth and His WILL, will be done in heaven and EARTH.
Brother until SIN there was NO need for a sacrifice for SIN, and this is easily seen that NO lamb was slain BEFORE the sin of ADAM.
The lamb slain from the foundation of the world is NOT TALKING ABOUT the OLD WORLD, but is speaking of Christ being slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD.
He is our foundation and cap stone, from the time of His death 2000 years ago the NEW WORLD has and is being established.
Scott... You are yet observing in FINITE vision... The WORLD which you envision as "NEW" is ETERNAL, and is NOT "new" as you percieve... nor shall there be an "AGE" which God shall make a "new" Heaven and "new" earth... these are PHYSICAL not SPIRITUAL observations... the "new" Heaven... is the MIND molded in the WORD of GOD, the "new" earth... is the body which is put on INCORRUPTION... both completed at TIMES end (fullness of TIME), ...in RESURRECTION of ALL MEN...
No "new" Hawaii to vacation to, or "new" soil to plant things in, or "new" air for the birds to fly in...
It is the COMPLETION of TIME, ...a realm [classroom] in which the HEAD [CHRIST]
teaches the BODY of CHRIST
, the KNOWLEDGE
[good & evil]...
Your observation point is caught up in "ages", ...all of which are imprisoned or encased in TIME
, His Word
s, Work, and PURPOSE are NOT confined (although appear) in TIME... they are ETERNAL...
, Work and Purpose of GOD, have NO BEGINNING, nor END... these are ETERNAL.
I realize you do not understand this at this moment... and I do not condemn you for it... However, others might be able to realize the concept of GOD as ALL in ALL, is NOT
a result of TIME... it is a FACT
of ETERNITY... with--OUT beginning nor end... Not "NEW", Not "OLD"... just ...ALWAYS, ...IS... FOREVER!
Willie if Jesus Christ died before the OLD WORLD was established as you presume then Jesus came in vain 2000 years ago, for what need of a second sacrifice if He was already sacrificed? What need of a second reconciliation if we were already reconciled?
I do not "presume" anything bro... CHRIST
, even though He came in FLESH, is NOT FLESH... He is SPIRIT
... 1 Cor 15:45
... And so IT ...IS... WRITTEN... [please don't forget this notation IS in PRESENT tense]... the first MAN Adam, was made a living soul, ...the LAST Adam, ...a QUICKENING SPIRIT...1 Cor 15:47
... the FIRST man, of the EARTH, "earthy" [EARTH is an entity in TIME -- WITH both beginning and end], the SECOND man, ...the LORD from HEAVEN [HEAVEN is an entity ETERNAL, WITHOUT beginning OR end]
Again, your observations are STUCK in TIME
, bro... and fail to recognize that ETERNITY does not require TIME's manifestation, in order to ...BE
death was eventually manifest in the course of TIME, but was absolutely NOT, ...CONFINED to it Scott... It is an ETERNAL notation... Before you can gain understanding (and I cannot give it to you, it must come from YHVH
)... You must first embrace that ALL named in the WORD
, are NOT ...TIME CONFINED... nor do they require that TIME occur in order to BE
...slain from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD [creation] is WITHOUT beginning or end... it ...IS... [not "was", nor "will be"-- as required by TIME]
All the sacrifices mentioned in the Old Testament were but a prefigure of Him that WAS TO COME.
As I said Scott... in order to understand, you must embrace the idea that the THINGS of GOD, never have and never will need TIME in order to BE...
ETERNAL things ...ARE
... not "was", and not "will be"... ARE
GOD is in a "ARE" scenario... TIME is not involved... ALL that GOD does, ...IS...
Can't make it any simpler than this:TIME
is a CONFINED entity which had a point of GENERATION, a period of existence, and SHALL, EXPIRE... (like the tires on my car!
, ...ALWAYS IS... (like the LOVE of GOD for all of us!