Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?

[Molly]

So, no, you are not free to leave the cell.

 :omg:   

Stand aside!  We're leaving!



14Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.
 16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

 18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
      because he has anointed me
      to preach good news to the poor.
   He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
      and recovery of sight for the blind,
   to release the oppressed,
    19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

 20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

--Luke 4

[pneuma]

You and I did not "fall into sin", because we invented the idea, or even because it was an option that we might enact of OUR descretion or decision... we "fell into sin" because it is WRITTEN that we DO SO... (Rom 3:23 / Ps 14:3)

Hi Willie, neither Ro. Nor Ps. Says that it is written that man would fall into sin all according to Gods plan. Show me ONE scripture brother that says God is the author of sin and you might be able to convince me, but well you look for ONE just remember I already showed SIN is of the DEVIL. Please don't tell me you are making God and the Devil the same being or that God has fellowship with the Devil. 

It was DECLARED in ETERNITY, that CHRIST die to redeem MAN from SIN, ...BEFORE... man "sinned" in the midst of TIME... Which notes that man was PREDESTINED to sin BY GOD... NOT that he "chose" it to be so aside from GOD within his erroneously supposed, "free will"...


For there would be no SIN, nor would creation necessitate a SAVIOR slain from its foundation, if it was NOT designated to be so, emerging from the CREATOR as HIS DECLARATION...

Willie this is the area I mentioned earlier about people mixing up the age which is to come with the ages past and present.

What I said earlier
And it is to this I believe the problem of free will stems, people are mixing up the ages of past and present with the age that is to come when God will create a new heaven and earth and His WILL, will be done in heaven and EARTH.


Brother until SIN there was NO need for a sacrifice for SIN, and this is easily seen that NO lamb was slain BEFORE the sin of ADAM.

The lamb slain from the foundation of the world is NOT TALKING ABOUT the OLD WORLD, but is speaking of Christ being slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD.
He is our foundation and cap stone, from the time of His death 2000 years ago the NEW WORLD has and is being established.

Willie if Jesus Christ died before the OLD WORLD was established as you presume then Jesus came in vain 2000 years ago, for what need of a second sacrifice if He was already sacrificed? What need of a second reconciliation if we were already reconciled?

All the sacrifices mentioned in the Old Testament were but a prefigure of Him that WAS TO COME.

[pneuma]

from: bobf on December 02, 2008, 12:20:19 AM
 The type of control I envision God doing on a day to day basis would be more like training than controlling, except God is the perfect trainer. God knows exactly how I will respond to each lesson.  God knows exactly what I will choose in any situation.  But God is not "controlling" like on a leash, He is interacting with my will and choices as flawed as they are.  Sometimes though, God does control by force like when he put Jonah inside of a fish.  But that's the extreme, not the norm.

Bob, or anyone, if you are in a prison cell, are you free to leave any time you want? I know you can say you have a will that is free to do what you want IN the cell but that is not within the scope of the point I am making. Are you free to leave the cell whenever you want?

God has violated every man's will and locked up their minds in a way that they are not free to be persuaded as to the truth.

God has His own prison. And He locks up all mankind in that prison. Are they free to leave when they "chooooooooooose" to?
"God locks up all in unpersuadableness that He should be merciful to all" (Romans 11:32).

Do they have a free will to unlock their minds and be persuaded concerning the truth? Are their wills more powerful than God's will to imprison them against their wills?

"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" Rom 11:36

Hi Tony, tell me is the door to the prison house open or closed?

According to scripture Jesus opened the prison doors and set the captives free, so yes you are free to leave the cell.

Romans was written long after Jesus died. It is in the present tense: "God locks up all . . . ." The prison door is locked. Only those who, in this lifetime, get mercy are the ones unlocked.

So, no, you are not free to leave the cell.

Tony they are only locked up until they recognise what Jesus Christ has done for them, which was to set them free.

From your understanding they would not be gathered back in even after they realsied Christ.

Brother the doors open, all we need to do is beleive it, then walk on out of our prison.

[pneuma]

So, no, you are not free to leave the cell.

 :omg:   

Stand aside!  We're leaving!



14Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.
 16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

 18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
      because he has anointed me
      to preach good news to the poor.
   He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
      and recovery of sight for the blind,
   to release the oppressed,
    19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

 20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

--Luke 4

Amen Molly 

[Paul Hazelwood]

Brother the doors open, all we need to do is beleive it, then walk on out of our prison.

I agree that this prison is open and we are a part of walking out.  For me it is the nature of how we come to believe.

We think belief is a choice,  but I do not think true belief is a choice at all.  Belief is the result of an event.  If you bite into food, you will either believe it is good or you will believe it is not.  You will not "truly" believe one way or the other until the event.   

We will only see Christ when he has chosen us through Gods drawing.  I think too many times this issue of choice and good and bad is painted in an either or fashion.

It is that either or fashion that causes some to not really try cause whatever will be will be and on the other end it causes judgementalism because people point fingers and start on people for not doing what they expect.

What I mean by that is not everyone is free in Christ in that manner all at the same time.

[pneuma]

Brother the doors open, all we need to do is beleive it, then walk on out of our prison.

I agree that this prison is open and we are a part of walking out.  For me it is the nature of how we come to believe.

We think belief is a choice,  but I do not think true belief is a choice at all.  Belief is the result of an event.  If you bite into food, you will either believe it is good or you will believe it is not.  You will not "truly" believe one way or the other until the event.   

We will only see Christ when he has chosen us through Gods drawing.  I think too many times this issue of choice and good and bad is painted in an either or fashion.

It is that either or fashion that causes some to not really try cause whatever will be will be and on the other end it causes judgementalism because people point fingers and start on people for not doing what they expect.

What I mean by that is not everyone is free in Christ in that manner all at the same time.

Hi Paul I agree with most of that.

I beleive our job (if I can use that term) is to let people know that Jesus Christ has set us free from everything that has had us bound, to taste and see that the Lord is good, that we might experiance that which we beleive.

[bobf]

Bob, or anyone, if you are in a prison cell, are you free to leave any time you want? I know you can say you have a will that is free to do what you want IN the cell but that is not within the scope of the point I am making. Are you free to leave the cell whenever you want?

No.

God has violated every man's will and locked up their minds in a way that they are not free to be persuaded as to the truth.

But they also do not want to be pursuaded.  That's how it differs from the jail cell.

[Molly]

Heaven is so far of the Mind
That were the Mind dissolved—
The Site—of it—by Architect
Could not again be proved—

'Tis vast—as our Capacity—
As fair—as our idea—
To Him of adequate desire
No further 'tis, than Here—


--Emily Dickinson

[Tony N]

from: bobf on December 02, 2008, 12:20:19 AM
 The type of control I envision God doing on a day to day basis would be more like training than controlling, except God is the perfect trainer. God knows exactly how I will respond to each lesson.  God knows exactly what I will choose in any situation.  But God is not "controlling" like on a leash, He is interacting with my will and choices as flawed as they are.  Sometimes though, God does control by force like when he put Jonah inside of a fish.  But that's the extreme, not the norm.

Bob, or anyone, if you are in a prison cell, are you free to leave any time you want? I know you can say you have a will that is free to do what you want IN the cell but that is not within the scope of the point I am making. Are you free to leave the cell whenever you want?

God has violated every man's will and locked up their minds in a way that they are not free to be persuaded as to the truth.

God has His own prison. And He locks up all mankind in that prison. Are they free to leave when they "chooooooooooose" to?
"God locks up all in unpersuadableness that He should be merciful to all" (Romans 11:32).

Do they have a free will to unlock their minds and be persuaded concerning the truth? Are their wills more powerful than God's will to imprison them against their wills?

"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" Rom 11:36

Hi Tony, tell me is the door to the prison house open or closed?

According to scripture Jesus opened the prison doors and set the captives free, so yes you are free to leave the cell.

Romans was written long after Jesus died. It is in the present tense: "God locks up all . . . ." The prison door is locked. Only those who, in this lifetime, get mercy are the ones unlocked.

So, no, you are not free to leave the cell.

Tony they are only locked up until they recognise what Jesus Christ has done for them, which was to set them free.

From your understanding they would not be gathered back in even after they realsied Christ.

Brother the doors open, all we need to do is beleive it, then walk on out of our prison.

Pneuma, they are locked up until God unlocks them. They are locked up in stubbornness. The same word for stubbornness is unpersuadableness. They cannot be persuaded in and of themselves. God has to unlock them.

From my understanding they will not be gathered back until God unlocks them in the future. He will. They do not have wills to walk through bars stronger than iron bars for the bars are put there by God Himself.

Brother, the doors are locked. All the prisoners need to do is wait till God unlocks the prison of unpersuadableness.

[Tony N]

Bob, or anyone, if you are in a prison cell, are you free to leave any time you want? I know you can say you have a will that is free to do what you want IN the cell but that is not within the scope of the point I am making. Are you free to leave the cell whenever you want?

No.

God has violated every man's will and locked up their minds in a way that they are not free to be persuaded as to the truth.

But they also do not want to be pursuaded.  That's how it differs from the jail cell.

They don't want to be persuaded because they are made of flesh and we know that "flesh is not able to please God" (Romans 8).

They don't want to be persuaded because God hardened their hearts, blinded their eyes and stopped up their ears.

God creating them that way superseded their not wanting to be persuaded. Some free will 

[pneuma]

Pneuma, they are locked up until God unlocks them. They are locked up in stubbornness. The same word for stubbornness is unpersuadableness. They cannot be persuaded in and of themselves. God has to unlock them.

Tony God through Christ has already opened the door for them, all they have to do is beleive, and then walk through the door.

From my understanding they will not be gathered back until God unlocks them in the future.

From that understanding brother no Jew then can be saved in this life, but don't we read in those same scriptures that if they repent and beleive that they will be gathered back in. Brother there is no Jew or Greek in Christ, we are ALL the same, so why do you seemingly make a distiction between them?

Brother, the doors are locked. All the prisoners need to do is wait till God unlocks the prison of unpersuadableness.

Tony read again those scriptures Molly posted earlier, then tell me how God through Christ failed to unlock the doors.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott...

You don't get it, and if I know our conversations, after this one, you still won't... even if I should post an entire book on a given subject... 

but nevertheless, here are a few comments:

You and I did not "fall into sin", because we invented the idea, or even because it was an option that we might enact of OUR descretion or decision... we "fell into sin" because it is WRITTEN that we DO SO... (Rom 3:23 / Ps 14:3)

Hi Willie, neither Ro. Nor Ps. Says that it is written that man would fall into sin all according to Gods plan. Show me ONE scripture brother that says God is the author of sin and you might be able to convince me, but well you look for ONE just remember I already showed SIN is of the DEVIL. Please don't tell me you are making God and the Devil the same being or that God has fellowship with the Devil.

You asked:

Col 1:20  For BY HIM were ...ALL THINGS created... [to include EVIL and the parameters of its result - sin and death], that are in Heaven, and that are in Earth, visible, and invisible, whether they be THRONES, or DOMINIONS, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS [whichever you wish to categorize evil, sin and death, they fit in any of them]... ALL THINGS [including evil, sin, death] were created BY HIM and FOR HIM...

Before I begin with my answer of the rest... it is my observation that ...the "devil" is NOT a "BEING"... IT [not "he"] is the ADVERSITY of the FLESHLY "will" and desires of MAN in his NATURAL EARTHY and PHYSICAL state... (I realize you do not embrace this, and that does not matter to me)...

OKAY, a few questions:

1.  WHO created EVIL Scott? ...(hint: GOD)

2.  WHO decided what SIN, ...IS?  ...(hint: GOD)

3.  WHO notes in HIS WORD which is ETERNAL, that ALL (including those prior to this writing and ALL those after it's appearance in time)... HAVE SINNED [past tense]? ...(hint: GOD)

4.  There is no "devil"...there is ADVERSITY which is the WILL of MAN... which behaves and reacts to the desires of his FLESH... Which takes place in the NATURAL state in which he was CREATED, ...by Whom?   ...(hint: GOD)

5.  ALL THINGS are created BY CHRIST and, a-hem...     ...FOR CHRIST... including ALL the examples of EVIL which HE created and designated as EVIL... and find their creation emerging from? ...(hint: GOD)

See?  I am 99% positive that you will object to all of this, so in essence, I'm speaking to the wall (no offense bro --  )...

I post this because it IS possible, that maybe others might hear that which I am proposing... 

It was DECLARED in ETERNITY, that CHRIST die to redeem MAN from SIN, ...BEFORE... man "sinned" in the midst of TIME... Which notes that man was PREDESTINED to sin BY GOD... NOT that he "chose" it to be so aside from GOD within his erroneously supposed, "free will"...

For there would be no SIN, nor would creation necessitate a SAVIOR slain from its foundation, if it was NOT designated to be so, emerging from the CREATOR as HIS DECLARATION...

Willie this is the area I mentioned earlier about people mixing up the age which is to come with the ages past and present.

What I said earlier
And it is to this I believe the problem of free will stems, people are mixing up the ages of past and present with the age that is to come when God will create a new heaven and earth and His WILL, will be done in heaven and EARTH.

Brother until SIN there was NO need for a sacrifice for SIN, and this is easily seen that NO lamb was slain BEFORE the sin of ADAM.

The lamb slain from the foundation of the world is NOT TALKING ABOUT the OLD WORLD, but is speaking of Christ being slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD.
He is our foundation and cap stone, from the time of His death 2000 years ago the NEW WORLD has and is being established.

Scott... You are yet observing in FINITE vision... The WORLD which you envision as "NEW" is ETERNAL, and is NOT "new" as you percieve... nor shall there be an "AGE" which God shall make a "new" Heaven and "new" earth... these are PHYSICAL not SPIRITUAL observations... the "new" Heaven... is the MIND molded in the WORD of GOD, the "new" earth... is the body which is put on INCORRUPTION... both completed at TIMES end (fullness of TIME), ...in RESURRECTION of ALL MEN... 

No "new" Hawaii to vacation to, or "new" soil to plant things in, or "new" air for the birds to fly in...

It is the COMPLETION of TIME, ...a realm [classroom] in which the HEAD [CHRIST] teaches the BODY of CHRIST, the KNOWLEDGE [good & evil]...

Your observation point is caught up in "ages", ...all of which are imprisoned or encased in TIME...

CHRIST, His Words, Work, and PURPOSE are NOT confined (although appear) in TIME... they are ETERNAL...

THE Word, Work and Purpose of GOD, have NO BEGINNING, nor END... these are ETERNAL.   

I realize you do not understand this at this moment... and I do not condemn you for it... However, others might be able to realize the concept of GOD as ALL in ALL, is NOT a result of TIME...  it is a FACT of ETERNITY... with--OUT beginning nor end... Not "NEW", Not "OLD"...  just ...ALWAYS, ...IS... FOREVER!

Willie if Jesus Christ died before the OLD WORLD was established as you presume then Jesus came in vain 2000 years ago, for what need of a second sacrifice if He was already sacrificed? What need of a second reconciliation if we were already reconciled?

I do not "presume" anything bro... CHRIST, even though He came in FLESH, is NOT FLESH... He is SPIRIT...

1 Cor 15:45... And so IT ...IS... WRITTEN... [please don't forget this notation IS in PRESENT tense]... the first MAN Adam, was made a living soul, ...the LAST Adam, ...a QUICKENING SPIRIT...

1 Cor 15:47... the FIRST man, of the EARTH, "earthy" [EARTH is an entity in TIME -- WITH both beginning and end], the SECOND man, ...the LORD from HEAVEN [HEAVEN is an entity ETERNAL, WITHOUT beginning OR end]

Again, your observations are STUCK in TIME, bro... and fail to recognize that ETERNITY does not require TIME's manifestation, in order to ...BE... 

CHRIST's death was eventually manifest in the course of TIME, but was absolutely NOT, ...CONFINED to it Scott... It is an ETERNAL notation...  Before you can gain understanding (and I cannot give it to you, it must come from YHVH)... You must first embrace that ALL named in the WORD of YHVH, are NOT ...TIME CONFINED... nor do they require that TIME occur in order to BE...

CHRIST ...slain from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD [creation] is WITHOUT beginning or end... it ...IS... [not "was", nor "will be"-- as required by TIME]

All the sacrifices mentioned in the Old Testament were but a prefigure of Him that WAS TO COME.

As I said Scott... in order to understand, you must embrace the idea that the THINGS of GOD, never have and never will need TIME in order to BE...

ETERNAL things ...ARE... not "was", and not "will be"... ARE!

GOD is in a "ARE" scenario... TIME is not involved... ALL that GOD does, ...IS...

Can't make it any simpler than this:

TIME is a CONFINED entity which had a point of GENERATION, a period of existence, and SHALL, EXPIRE... (like the tires on my car!  )

ETERNITY, ...ALWAYS IS... (like the LOVE of GOD for all of us! )



peacE...
willieH   

[Molly]

 The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

--Edmund Burke



If you make a deal with the devil, sooner or later he's coming for you.

--Molly

[Molly]

1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
 2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

--Gen 5



[This is the] "book"

H5612
ספרה    ספר
sêpher siphrâh
say'-fer, sif-raw'
From H5608; properly writing (the art or a document); by implication a book: - bill, book, evidence, X learn [-ed] (-ing), letter, register, scroll.



41And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?

 42And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

--Luke 20





8And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;

--Rev 13 (Young's Literal Translation)

[Paul Hazelwood]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

--Edmund Burke

 1C 15:25 For He must be reigning until He which should be placing all His enemies under His feet.

If you make a deal with the devil, sooner or later he's coming for you.

--Molly

Lk 22:31 Now the Lord said,  "Simon, Simon, lo! Satan claims you men, to sift you as grain.

[Tony N]

Pneuma, they are locked up until God unlocks them. They are locked up in stubbornness. The same word for stubbornness is unpersuadableness. They cannot be persuaded in and of themselves. God has to unlock them.

Tony God through Christ has already opened the door for them, all they have to do is beleive, and then walk through the door.

Dear pneuma, Here is the passage from which you get your idea that Jesus opened the door:

Eph 4:8-11  Wherefore He is saying, Ascending on high, He captures captivity And gives gifts to mankind."  (9)  Now the 'He ascended,' what is it except that He first descended also into the lower parts of the earth?  (10)  He Who descends is the Same Who ascends also, up over all who are of the heavens, that He should be completing all."  (11)  And the same One gives these, indeed, as apostles, yet these as prophets, yet these as evangelists, yet these as pastors and teachers,

Psa 68:18 You ascend on high, You capture captivity, You apportion gifts among mankind, And also for the stubborn, to tabernacle with Yah Elohim."

There is nothing in the passages above with hint at Christ emptying Hades or Tartarus or any such pagan idea.

"If the blessed dead were all caught up into a celestial paradise, then David certainly must be there. Then David has ascended into the heavens. "David is not ascended into the heavens" (Acts 2:34). This settles the matter. David is not ascended, neither have all the blessed dead ascended. Leading "captivity captive" (Eph.4:8) means just that and not the inmates of hades. Why should they be called "captivity?" And why should they still be termed captives in "Paradise?" One fact destroys all this inference. "David is not ascended."

Tony wrote: From my understanding they will not be gathered back until God unlocks them in the future.

pneuma replied: From that understanding brother no Jew then can be saved in this life, but don't we read in those same scriptures that if they repent and beleive that they will be gathered back in. Brother there is no Jew or Greek in Christ, we are ALL the same, so why do you seemingly make a distiction between them?

Tony's reply:
Dear pneuma, I'm not the one that made the rules or gave the word to the apostle Paul that: Rom 11:25-26  ". . . callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."  (26)  And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."

Rom 11:30-32  For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness,  (31)  thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy."  (32)  For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all."

The only way we were unlocked when stubborn was that we were shown mercy. The majority of Israel is now locked up in stubbornness (unpersuadableness) until God shows them mercy. When will he show them mercy? When arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. It does not happen by them using some paganistic idea called "free will." It happens when God wills to send His Son back to rescue them.

You say "brother there is no Jew nor Greek in Christ." This is true. And in those same epistles Paul also says there are no free nor slave, male or female etc. And yet in those same epistles he tells the slaves how to obey their masters, how the free are not to abuse their freedom, how the women and men are to love one another and this is all "in the Lord." In the body of Christ believers among the nations there is no Jew or Greek.

Tony wrote: Brother, the doors are locked. All the prisoners need to do is wait till God unlocks the prison of unpersuadableness.

pneuma replied: Tony read again those scriptures Molly posted earlier, then tell me how God through Christ failed to unlock the doors.

The Bible doesn't say Christ unlocked any doors.

[Molly]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

--Edmund Burke

 1C 15:25 For He must be reigning until He which should be placing all His enemies under His feet.

If you make a deal with the devil, sooner or later he's coming for you.

--Molly

Lk 22:31 Now the Lord said,  "Simon, Simon, lo! Satan claims you men, to sift you as grain.

Peter had Christ.  He had Jesus praying for him.  There is a difference between being sifted against your will and actually making a covenant with death.



31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

--Luke 22





15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

 16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

 17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

 18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

--Isa 28

[Molly]

 7 But each one of us has received a gift of grace, just as Christ wanted us to have it.

8 That is why Scripture says,

   "When he went up to his place on high,
      he led a line of prisoners.
      He gave gifts to people." —(Psalm 68:18)

 9 What does "he went up" mean? It can only mean that he also came down to the lower, earthly places. 10 The One who came down is the same as the One who went up higher than all the heavens. He did it in order to fill all of creation. 11 He is the One who gave some the gift to be apostles. He gave some the gift to be prophets. He gave some the gift of preaching the good news. And he gave some the gift to be pastors and teachers.

--Eph 4



17 God has come with tens of thousands of his chariots.
      He has come with thousands and thousands of them.
   The Lord has come from Mount Sinai.
      He has entered his holy place.
 18 When he went up to his place on high,
      he led a line of prisoners.

--Psa 68





29 "Brothers, you can be sure that King David died. He was buried. His tomb is still here today. 30 But David was a prophet. He knew that God had made a promise to him. He had taken an oath that someone in David's family line would be king after him. 31 David saw what was ahead. So he spoke about the Christ rising from the dead. He said that the Christ would not be left in the grave. His body wouldn't rot in the ground. 32 God has raised this same Jesus back to life. We are all witnesses of this. 33 Jesus has been given a place of honor at the right hand of God. He has received the Holy Spirit from the Father. This is what God had promised. It is Jesus who has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 David did not go up to heaven. But he said,
   " 'The Lord said to my Lord,
      "Sit at my right hand.
 35 I will put your enemies
      under your control." ' —(Psalm 110:1)

 36 "So be sure of this, all you people of Israel. You nailed Jesus to the cross. But God has made him both Lord and Christ."

 37 When the people heard this, their hearts were filled with shame. They said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?"

 38 Peter replied, "All of you must turn away from your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then your sins will be forgiven. You will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children. It is also for all who are far away. It is for all whom the Lord our God will choose."

 40 Peter said many other things to warn them. He begged them, "Save yourselves from these evil people." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized. About 3,000 people joined the believers that day.

--Acts 2

[Paul Hazelwood]

The point is Molly is that men think they have the power to defeat Evil and it is not within our power to do so.

That is the deception, if good men can defeat evil, then forget Jesus he is irrevalent.

That IS what is wrong with Christianity, they talk and talk and talk about Jesus, but really do not think he is all that necessary because HEY,  YOU can make the choice.

[Molly]

The point is Molly is that men think they have the power to defeat Evil and it is not within our power to do so.

That is the deception, if good men can defeat evil, then forget Jesus he is irrevalent.

That IS what is wrong with Christianity, they talk and talk and talk about Jesus, but really do not think he is all that necessary because HEY,  YOU can make the choice.

It's not within our power to defeat evil, no.  I never said it was.  But, like Peter, we have Christ.

1 John 4:4
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.



Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

[Tony N]

7 But each one of us has received a gift of grace, just as Christ wanted us to have it.

8 That is why Scripture says,

   "When he went up to his place on high,
      he led a line of prisoners.
      He gave gifts to people." —(Psalm 68:18)

Dear Molly, the best translations have ". . . led captivity captive." Jesus did not lead a line of prisoners to heaven when He ascended. He ascended only by Himself.

Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

17 God has come with tens of thousands of his chariots.
      He has come with thousands and thousands of them.
   The Lord has come from Mount Sinai.
      He has entered his holy place.
 18 When he went up to his place on high,
      he led a line of prisoners.

--Psa 68

Dear Molly, the tens of thousands of chariots are not humans who ascended into heaven and are returning with Jesus. Those are most likely the 144,000 that, when He sets foot on Zion will come to Him. They come out of their tombs or are already alive on the earth when He returns. "No one has ascended into heaven except He . . . ."

29 "Brothers, you can be sure that King David died. He was buried. His tomb is still here today. 30 But David was a prophet. He knew that God had made a promise to him. He had taken an oath that someone in David's family line would be king after him. 31 David saw what was ahead. So he spoke about the Christ rising from the dead. He said that the Christ would not be left in the grave. His body wouldn't rot in the ground. 32 God has raised this same Jesus back to life. We are all witnesses of this. 33 Jesus has been given a place of honor at the right hand of God. He has received the Holy Spirit from the Father. This is what God had promised. It is Jesus who has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 David did not go up to heaven. But he said,
   " 'The Lord said to my Lord,
      "Sit at my right hand.
 35 I will put your enemies
      under your control." ' —(Psalm 110:1)

 36 "So be sure of this, all you people of Israel. You nailed Jesus to the cross. But God has made him both Lord and Christ."

 37 When the people heard this, their hearts were filled with shame. They said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?"

 38 Peter replied, "All of you must turn away from your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then your sins will be forgiven. You will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children. It is also for all who are far away. It is for all whom the Lord our God will choose."

 40 Peter said many other things to warn them. He begged them, "Save yourselves from these evil people." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized. About 3,000 people joined the believers that day.

--Acts 2

Which proves my point.
Tony

[Molly]

Dear Molly, the best translations have ". . . led captivity captive." Jesus did not lead a line of prisoners to heaven when He ascended. He ascended only by Himself.

He freed the prisoners.  If you are being led by Jesus, you are free. 

This is what Jesus himself told the Jews was fulfilled in your hearing today.


He has sent me to announce freedom for prisoners.

--Luke 4



He led captivity captive

"aichmalōteuō aichmalōsia"



[he led] "captivity"

G161
αἰχμαλωσία
aichmalōsia
aheekh-mal-o-see'-ah
From G164; captivity: - captivity.



G164
αἰχμαλωτός
aichmalōtos
aheekh-mal-o-tos'
Fromαἰχμή aichmē (a spear) and a derivative of the same as G259; properly a prisoner of war, that is, (generally) a captive: - captive.

[Molly]

Dear Molly, the tens of thousands of chariots are not humans who ascended into heaven and are returning with Jesus. Those are most likely the 144,000 that, when He sets foot on Zion will come to Him. They come out of their tombs or are already alive on the earth when He returns. "No one has ascended into heaven except He . . . ."

Although I'm not talking about 'ascending into heaven,' if he can do it, and if he is in you, don't you think you can do it, too?


13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the One who came from heaven. He is the Son of Man.

--John 3:13


32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

--John 12:32



"if"

G1437
ἐάν
ean
eh-an'
From G1487 and G302; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty: - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever). See G3361.



[I be] "lifted up"

G5312
ὑψόω
hupsoō
hoop-so'-o
From G5311; to elevate (literally or figuratively): - exalt, lift up.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Although I'm not talking about 'ascending into heaven,' if he can do it, and if he is in you, don't you think you can do it, too?

In what way?   Have you done it?   Explain what you mean exactly.

[Nathan]

cringing when I quote this . .. but doing it anyway.

John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.  2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

OOOOOH . . . . . a better one than that!!!

Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Take a minute and read the chapter leading up to this and you'll see that indeed, MANY have gone on ahead of us and ARE among us right now, only in a dimension my natural eyes can not see.  But they are there none the less and yes, I do believe they ARE the cloud that Christ is connected with. Not a natural cloud at all.  But a cloud of saints . . .that's a large number of people/spirits.  

And I do believe the captivity led captive thing is also dealing with headless souls . . .martyred souls . . .there are souls being "held" beneath the altar waiting for the maturity of all things to come so they can be released.  They have been given white robes and an instruction not to "wait" but to "rest" a little longer until all things come into completion.  It's where my mind went when I lost it.  And it's been purified and clothed, a new identity has been given.

Ephesians 2
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus