Author Topic: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?  (Read 48569 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #400 on: December 02, 2008, 09:49:33 PM »
I will not put Hitler at the feet of God, as if Hitler didn't know right from wrong.



Knowing something is wrong or right is based upon what?   What does thinking something is wrong have to do with belief in Christ?

There are many a professing Atheists who believe murder is wrong and do not commit murder physically.  So how does that mean anything concerning Christ?




7 God will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good. They want glory, honor, and life that never ends. 8 But there are others who only look out for themselves. They don't accept the truth. They go down an evil path. God will pour out his burning anger on them. 9 There will be trouble and suffering for everyone who does evil. That is meant first for the Jews. It is also meant for the non-Jews. 10 But there will be glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good. That is meant first for the Jews. It is also meant for the non-Jews. 11 God treats everyone the same.

 12 Some people do not know God's law when they sin. They will not be judged by the law when they die. Others do know God's law when they sin. They will be judged by the law. 13 Hearing the law does not make a person right with God. People are considered to be right with God only when they obey the law.

 14 Those who aren't Jews do not have the law. Sometimes they just naturally do what the law requires. They are a law for themselves. This is true even though they don't have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts. The way their minds judge them gives witness to that fact. Sometimes their thoughts find them guilty. At other times their thoughts find them not guilty.

 16 People will be judged on the day God appoints Jesus Christ to judge their secret thoughts. That's part of my good news.


--Rom 2

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #401 on: December 02, 2008, 09:52:55 PM »
Quote
JESUS PLAINLY said to JUDGE NOT (Matt 7:1)... Yet you continue in thread after thread to JUDGE Hitler... "Willingly" DISOBEYING a DIRECT command from CHRIST...  

If you "die" before asking forgiveness of your judgment of Hitler (repenting), you shall "die in your sins" as well...  


2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


1 Cor 6


All you have done by posting that is promote a contradiction.

What allows you the power to know Hitlers heart "now"?

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #402 on: December 02, 2008, 09:54:35 PM »
Quote
JESUS PLAINLY said to JUDGE NOT (Matt 7:1)... Yet you continue in thread after thread to JUDGE Hitler... "Willingly" DISOBEYING a DIRECT command from CHRIST...  

If you "die" before asking forgiveness of your judgment of Hitler (repenting), you shall "die in your sins" as well...  


2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


1 Cor 6


All you have done by posting that is promote a contradiction.

What allows you the power to know Hitlers heart "now"?

Hitler's heart now is not my concern. The fact that he is the poster boy for evil in this life is my concern.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #403 on: December 02, 2008, 10:00:54 PM »
Quote
JESUS PLAINLY said to JUDGE NOT (Matt 7:1)... Yet you continue in thread after thread to JUDGE Hitler... "Willingly" DISOBEYING a DIRECT command from CHRIST...  

If you "die" before asking forgiveness of your judgment of Hitler (repenting), you shall "die in your sins" as well...  


2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


1 Cor 6


All you have done by posting that is promote a contradiction.

What allows you the power to know Hitlers heart "now"?

Hitler's heart now is not my concern. The fact that he is the poster boy for evil in this life is my concern.


And that means what?   That God sees you as better than hitler? 

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #404 on: December 02, 2008, 10:03:06 PM »
There is a time and place for everything

In this age and the ages that proceeded this age man has a free will to choose life or death.

God's kingdom has not yet been established in the EARTH for Jesus taught us to pray thy kingdom come thy WILL be done on EARTH as it is in heaven.

A very strong indication that Gods WILL is not YET being done in the EARTH.

 :omg:  Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat???  :wacko2:

What of Eph 1:11 Scott?  :dunno:

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINED, ...according TO the PURPOSE of Him that WORKETH ALL THINGS ...after the COUNSEL of HIS OWN WILL...   :dontknow:

Seems to me... "ALL THINGS" is THAT which is found between the END and the BEGINNING...  :dontknow:

peacE...
willieH   :gamer: 

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #405 on: December 02, 2008, 10:12:00 PM »


Hitler is actually one of the examples of why it is very hard to believe that all will be reconciled unto God.  It is hard to believe that God sees each of us the same, even if our purposes are different.

It is hard for us who can say we have not done what Hitler has done to see that we are judged in the same manner and indeed, what if our hearts are even darker than Hitlers.

It is because the physical actions we take do not necessarily reveal our heart.   Jesus did not reprimand the pharasees because they were "doing" physical acts such as hitler.

In fact, lawfully, they had legal right to Stone a prostitute.   Funny, how Jesus spared the prostitute from that and told the pharasees the nature of their heart.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #406 on: December 02, 2008, 10:18:27 PM »
Quote
JESUS PLAINLY said to JUDGE NOT (Matt 7:1)... Yet you continue in thread after thread to JUDGE Hitler... "Willingly" DISOBEYING a DIRECT command from CHRIST...  

If you "die" before asking forgiveness of your judgment of Hitler (repenting), you shall "die in your sins" as well...  


2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


1 Cor 6


All you have done by posting that is promote a contradiction.

What allows you the power to know Hitlers heart "now"?

Hitler's heart now is not my concern. The fact that he is the poster boy for evil in this life is my concern.


And that means what?   That God sees you as better than hitler? 

You want to start at the end, which according to you is that all are saved, and work backwards.   God has not given me the same insights as he may have given you.  For me, I have no expectations about what happens to people after they die, except that I know that God is just and I trust his justice and his mercy.  I also know that we as believers have been given eternal life.

But when you start with an assumption and then try to work backwards to make everything fit your assumption, it is easy to disregard things that you think might contradict your assumption.

This is the problem with free will.  If I am free to choose, then I can choose satan over God (many do).   There's your ET argument.   If I am not free to choose, then it's on God's head because I have no control of it.  There's your UR argument.

But, I'm not making arguments.  I know that my free will gets freer every day as I see more and more truth about everything.  I know that I can control my own behavior.  I don't have to just react to things.  I can be proactive. I know that Christ has freed me and that someday I will know all truth.  I see man and God as partners.   Jesus is our brother.  In that sense, he is our equal.  Somehow Christianity has gone very passive over the last hundred years or so.  But, our faith was never meant to be something passive.  


2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.




Offline Doc

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #407 on: December 02, 2008, 10:19:28 PM »
I'm also reminded of one of the passages in... one of the gospels I think; where the disciples are with Jesus and after they'd given testimony that was not accepted, asked Jesus if they should call fire down on them. Jesus answer was (paraphrasing); You don't know what spirit you are of: I came to save men's lives, not destroy them.  :omg:

This is not to say that "moral effort" doesn't make a difference; just pointing out that we often see these things through our human eyes rather than the eyes of the Spirit.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 10:22:16 PM by Doc »
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #408 on: December 02, 2008, 10:39:40 PM »
 51And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

 52And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

 53And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

 54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

 55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

 56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.


--Luke 9


So much for the Crusades...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #409 on: December 02, 2008, 10:47:28 PM »

You want to start at the end, which according to you is that all are saved, and work backwards.   God has not given me the same insights as he may have given you.  For me, I have no expectations about what happens to people after they die, except that I know that God is just and I trust his justice and his mercy.  I also know that we as believers have been given eternal life.

But when you start with an assumption and then try to work backwards to make everything fit your assumption, it is easy to disregard things that you think might contradict your assumption.


It's easy to be so vague that a post is entirely useless too.



Quote
Somehow Christianity has gone very passive over the last hundred years or so.  But, our faith was never meant to be something passive.

Christianity has become the worship of man if it was ever anything else.   I believe Christ Jesus to be the Savior of all mankind, I do not believe in Christianity, I believe in Jesus.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #410 on: December 02, 2008, 10:54:53 PM »

You want to start at the end, which according to you is that all are saved, and work backwards.   God has not given me the same insights as he may have given you.  For me, I have no expectations about what happens to people after they die, except that I know that God is just and I trust his justice and his mercy.  I also know that we as believers have been given eternal life.

But when you start with an assumption and then try to work backwards to make everything fit your assumption, it is easy to disregard things that you think might contradict your assumption.


It's easy to be so vague that a post is entirely useless too.



Quote
Somehow Christianity has gone very passive over the last hundred years or so.  But, our faith was never meant to be something passive.

Christianity has become the worship of man if it was ever anything else.   I believe Christ Jesus to be the Savior of all mankind, I do not believe in Christianity, I believe in Jesus.

More like it has been used by men to promote their own agenda.  It was the church that presided over the dark ages.  Germany was one of the great Christian countries of the world in 1933.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #411 on: December 02, 2008, 10:58:35 PM »

You want to start at the end, which according to you is that all are saved, and work backwards.   God has not given me the same insights as he may have given you.  For me, I have no expectations about what happens to people after they die, except that I know that God is just and I trust his justice and his mercy.  I also know that we as believers have been given eternal life.

But when you start with an assumption and then try to work backwards to make everything fit your assumption, it is easy to disregard things that you think might contradict your assumption.


It's easy to be so vague that a post is entirely useless too.



Quote
Somehow Christianity has gone very passive over the last hundred years or so.  But, our faith was never meant to be something passive.

Christianity has become the worship of man if it was ever anything else.   I believe Christ Jesus to be the Savior of all mankind, I do not believe in Christianity, I believe in Jesus.

More like it has been used by men to promote their own agenda.  It was the church that presided over the dark ages.  Germany was one of the great Christian countries of the world in 1933.

That is why it is actually a system of the world disguised as Jesus church.

Offline Doc

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #412 on: December 02, 2008, 11:11:29 PM »


Christianity has become the worship of man if it was ever anything else.   I believe Christ Jesus to be the Savior of all mankind, I do not believe in Christianity, I believe in Jesus.



Right on, Paul.  :thumbsup:
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline rosered

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #413 on: December 02, 2008, 11:38:06 PM »


Christianity has become the worship of man if it was ever anything else.   I believe Christ Jesus to be the Savior of all mankind, I do not believe in Christianity, I believe in Jesus.



Right on, Paul.  :thumbsup:

  Well  originally  being a Christian was a good thing  ,


  Christian  simply meant a follower of Christ [anointed One ]
 


Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Antioch = 'driven against"

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #414 on: December 02, 2008, 11:53:09 PM »


Christianity has become the worship of man if it was ever anything else.   I believe Christ Jesus to be the Savior of all mankind, I do not believe in Christianity, I believe in Jesus.



Right on, Paul.  :thumbsup:

  Well  originally  being a Christian was a good thing  ,


  Christian  simply meant a follower of Christ [anointed One ]
 


Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Antioch = 'driven against"

I do not really disagree with that rosered,  I simply think that being a Christian and assembling and fellowshipping and doing good to one another without judging and Christianity are two different things.


In my 44 years of life I cannot remember having  entered a church that was not preaching some kind of foul doctrine whether it be hell or how bad everyone that does not believe in God is etc etc.


These churches are based on Christianity and many will argue for Christianity rather than to seek the understanding of the spirit.


Offline Doc

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #415 on: December 03, 2008, 12:14:42 AM »
Part of the problem is that Christianity has become so institutional.  :thumbdown:

The name Christianity no longer carries the connotation it once did, even if the technical meaning is "follower of Christ". To most people, it means "follower of the Christian Religion, which I most definitely am not.

Jesus said, " I am the way, the Truth and the Life", not the religion called "Christianity"
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #416 on: December 03, 2008, 12:35:44 AM »
Part of the problem is that Christianity has become so institutional.  :thumbdown:

The name Christianity no longer carries the connotation it once did, even if the technical meaning is "follower of Christ". To most people, it means "follower of the Christian Religion, which I most definitely am not.

Jesus said, " I am the way, the Truth and the Life", not the religion called "Christianity"

Yes, and UR is not protected from that.  One website is strictly about one mans teachings and woe to the poster who tries to suggest the man is wrong.

Thats why even if there was a UR church in my area I would approach it with care.


Offline jabcat

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #417 on: December 03, 2008, 12:46:43 AM »
 :happyclap:  Good job everybody for getting this thread back more on topic, and back into some more (IMO) fruitful/helpful areas.   :thumbsup:.  God's blessing, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline rosered

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #418 on: December 03, 2008, 02:49:51 AM »


Christianity has become the worship of man if it was ever anything else.   I believe Christ Jesus to be the Savior of all mankind, I do not believe in Christianity, I believe in Jesus.



Right on, Paul.  :thumbsup:

  Well  originally  being a Christian was a good thing  ,


  Christian  simply meant a follower of Christ [anointed One ]
 


Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Antioch = 'driven against"

I do not really disagree with that rosered,  I simply think that being a Christian and assembling and fellowshipping and doing good to one another without judging and Christianity are two different things.


In my 44 years of life I cannot remember having  entered a church that was not preaching some kind of foul doctrine whether it be hell or how bad everyone that does not believe in God is etc etc.


These churches are based on Christianity and many will argue for Christianity rather than to seek the understanding of the spirit.



  Amen  to the Spirit bro!  I totally agree  :icon_flower:
 
  I also agree with Doc  Jesus is the Way Truth and life   in the SPIRIT within us   , which is the True Church /Body of Christ ..  the body    follows the Head  and where it goes  :)

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #419 on: December 03, 2008, 02:22:52 PM »
Quote
from: bobf on December 02, 2008, 12:20:19 AM
 The type of control I envision God doing on a day to day basis would be more like training than controlling, except God is the perfect trainer. God knows exactly how I will respond to each lesson.  God knows exactly what I will choose in any situation.  But God is not "controlling" like on a leash, He is interacting with my will and choices as flawed as they are.  Sometimes though, God does control by force like when he put Jonah inside of a fish.  But that's the extreme, not the norm.


Bob, or anyone, if you are in a prison cell, are you free to leave any time you want? I know you can say you have a will that is free to do what you want IN the cell but that is not within the scope of the point I am making. Are you free to leave the cell whenever you want?

God has violated every man's will and locked up their minds in a way that they are not free to be persuaded as to the truth.

God has His own prison. And He locks up all mankind in that prison. Are they free to leave when they "chooooooooooose" to?
"God locks up all in unpersuadableness that He should be merciful to all" (Romans 11:32).

Do they have a free will to unlock their minds and be persuaded concerning the truth? Are their wills more powerful than God's will to imprison them against their wills?

"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" Rom 11:36
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #420 on: December 03, 2008, 07:41:33 PM »
There is a time and place for everything

In this age and the ages that proceeded this age man has a free will to choose life or death.

God's kingdom has not yet been established in the EARTH for Jesus taught us to pray thy kingdom come thy WILL be done on EARTH as it is in heaven.

A very strong indication that Gods WILL is not YET being done in the EARTH.

 :omg:  Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat???  :wacko2:

What of Eph 1:11 Scott?  :dunno:

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINED, ...according TO the PURPOSE of Him that WORKETH ALL THINGS ...after the COUNSEL of HIS OWN WILL...   :dontknow:

Seems to me... "ALL THINGS" is THAT which is found between the END and the BEGINNING...  :dontknow:

peacE...
willieH   :gamer: 


Hi Willie, the whole of Eph.1 is speaking of Christ and being predestined in Christ and God works ALL THINGS according to His counsel IN CHRIST.

God does not work all thing according to His counsel in ADAM, for God says to man Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Man is not and never has been a part of the counsel of God, Gods counsel has always been in CHRIST and with CHRIST before the foundation of the world.

Gods WORKETH ALL THINGS after the COUNSEL of HIS OWN WILL IN CHRIST, NOT IN ADAM. Predestination is in CHRIST, NOT in ADAM, and as long as people continue to look at Gods counsel through ADAM their eyes are not upon CHRIST, who is the predestination, the plan, the truth, the life, the resurrection yea the ALL THINGS of Gods COUNSEL.

pneuma

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #421 on: December 03, 2008, 07:45:23 PM »
Quote
from: bobf on December 02, 2008, 12:20:19 AM
 The type of control I envision God doing on a day to day basis would be more like training than controlling, except God is the perfect trainer. God knows exactly how I will respond to each lesson.  God knows exactly what I will choose in any situation.  But God is not "controlling" like on a leash, He is interacting with my will and choices as flawed as they are.  Sometimes though, God does control by force like when he put Jonah inside of a fish.  But that's the extreme, not the norm.


Bob, or anyone, if you are in a prison cell, are you free to leave any time you want? I know you can say you have a will that is free to do what you want IN the cell but that is not within the scope of the point I am making. Are you free to leave the cell whenever you want?

God has violated every man's will and locked up their minds in a way that they are not free to be persuaded as to the truth.

God has His own prison. And He locks up all mankind in that prison. Are they free to leave when they "chooooooooooose" to?
"God locks up all in unpersuadableness that He should be merciful to all" (Romans 11:32).

Do they have a free will to unlock their minds and be persuaded concerning the truth? Are their wills more powerful than God's will to imprison them against their wills?

"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" Rom 11:36

Hi Tony, tell me is the door to the prison house open or closed?

According to scripture Jesus opened the prison doors and set the captives free, so yes you are free to leave the cell.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #422 on: December 03, 2008, 08:55:12 PM »
Quote
According to scripture Jesus opened the prison doors and set the captives free, so yes you are free to leave the cell.

ATTENTION:  All prisoners are free to leave the cell!   :laughing7:



5So Peter was kept in prison, but the church was earnestly praying to God for him.

 6The night before Herod was to bring him to trial, Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains, and sentries stood guard at the entrance. 7Suddenly an angel of the Lord appeared and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him up. "Quick, get up!" he said, and the chains fell off Peter's wrists.

 8Then the angel said to him, "Put on your clothes and sandals." And Peter did so. "Wrap your cloak around you and follow me," the angel told him. 9Peter followed him out of the prison, but he had no idea that what the angel was doing was really happening; he thought he was seeing a vision. 10They passed the first and second guards and came to the iron gate leading to the city. It opened for them by itself, and they went through it. When they had walked the length of one street, suddenly the angel left him.

 11Then Peter came to himself and said, "Now I know without a doubt that the Lord sent his angel and rescued me from Herod's clutches and from everything the Jewish people were anticipating."

 12When this had dawned on him, he went to the house of Mary the mother of John, also called Mark, where many people had gathered and were praying. 13Peter knocked at the outer entrance, and a servant girl named Rhoda came to answer the door. 14When she recognized Peter's voice, she was so overjoyed she ran back without opening it and exclaimed, "Peter is at the door!"

 15"You're out of your mind," they told her. When she kept insisting that it was so, they said, "It must be his angel."

 16But Peter kept on knocking, and when they opened the door and saw him, they were astonished. 17Peter motioned with his hand for them to be quiet and described how the Lord had brought him out of prison. "Tell James and the brothers about this," he said, and then he left for another place.


--Acts 12


[The gate...opened] "by itself"

G844
αὐτόματος
automatos
ow-tom'-at-os
From G846 and the same as G3155; self moved ("automatic"), that is, spontaneous: - of own accord, of self.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 09:10:15 PM by Molly »

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #423 on: December 03, 2008, 09:48:13 PM »
willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

Hope you are doing well bro,  :cloud9:

There is a time and place for everything

In this age and the ages that proceeded this age man has a free will to choose life or death.

God's kingdom has not yet been established in the EARTH for Jesus taught us to pray thy kingdom come thy WILL be done on EARTH as it is in heaven.

A very strong indication that Gods WILL is not YET being done in the EARTH.

:omg:  Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat???  :wacko2:

What of Eph 1:11 Scott?  :dunno:

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINED, ...according TO the PURPOSE of Him that WORKETH ALL THINGS ...after the COUNSEL of HIS OWN WILL...   :dontknow:

Seems to me... "ALL THINGS" is THAT which is found between the END and the BEGINNING...  :dontknow:

peacE...
willieH   :gamer: 

Hi Willie, the whole of Eph.1 is speaking of Christ and being predestined in Christ and God works ALL THINGS according to His counsel IN CHRIST.

Yes... I agree, because ALL THINGS are in the RECONCILIATION process... which includes the fact they became in a state or condition of UNRECONCILIATION...  :dontknow:

The Statement of Eph 1:11 is:  "who WORKETH ALL THINGS, according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL..."

Trying to word this statement so as to enable WILL of MAN to be something that GOD, had to FIX because MAN caused the problem... IS the problem, Scott...  :dontknow:

GOD created THE KNOWLEDGE for MAN to gain... and that KNOWLEDGE contained BOTH entities which we observe to be GOOD and EVIL... these "two" are ONE KNOWLEDGE bro... :yes:

God does not work all thing according to His counsel in ADAM, for God says to man Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Man is not and never has been a part of the counsel of God, Gods counsel has always been in CHRIST and with CHRIST before the foundation of the world.

First... GOD's addressing Job with the above, was the establishement that SIN ...ERECTS a barrier which eliminates the SINNER to have the VISION of ETERNITY...  If one brings up that some Prophets of GOD have had Heavenly vision, only notes that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD... And ONLY when it is conduscive concerning the PURPOSE of GOD, do men gain a vision of HOLINESS... and even then... it was SO, because IT IS WRITTEN that it was SO, in the WORD...

One which is IMPERFECT cannot behold the PERFECT without the DECLARATION of GOD noting it to be so... neither can he emulate it... GOD also noted to JOB that ALL (not just "some) of the SONS of GOD were present at CREATION... and IN THIS, displayed that JOB had no RECALL of such an event, even though JOB was in fact, a SON of GOD.  :dontknow:  This is SO, because it is WRITTEN that IT IS SO... (that Job could not produce a recollection of the creation)

Second... Part of the "COUNSEL of GOD's WILL" brother S... is that CHRIST be slain from the foundation of the world, because it was a necessity to RECONCILE Adam, and his descendents... which fell into transgression, also a part of the COUNSEL of the WILL of YHVH... 

In other words, both the SACRIFICE of CHRIST due to the SIN of ADAM, were BOTH advisements originating in the WILL of YHVH, and BOTH were DECLARED before a "WORLD" even existed...  :dontknow: NEITHER were "generated" by MAN and his misuse of assumed and mythical "free will"...  :laughing7:

You and I did not "fall into sin", because we invented the idea, or even because it was an option that we might enact of OUR descretion or decision... we "fell into sin" because it is WRITTEN that we DO SO... (Rom 3:23 / Ps 14:3)

It was DECLARED in ETERNITY,  that CHRIST die to redeem MAN from SIN, ...BEFORE... man "sinned" in the midst of TIME...  Which notes that man was PREDESTINED to sin BY GOD... NOT that he "chose" it to be so aside from GOD within his erroneously supposed, "free will"...

GOD gave ADAM the ability to TRANSGRESS (which is the adversity of the flesh, which prompts SIN - James 1:14)... which power was given AFTER the DECLARATION of End from Beginning was made... meaning that between the END and the BEGINNING, ...(1) ADAM would transgress, and pass that ability to each of his descendents... because ...(2) CHRIST was slain from the FOUNDATION of the World (in ETERNITY)... which also would find manifestation within TIME...

Gods WORKETH ALL THINGS after the COUNSEL of HIS OWN WILL IN CHRIST, NOT IN ADAM. Predestination is in CHRIST, NOT in ADAM, and as long as people continue to look at Gods counsel through ADAM their eyes are not upon CHRIST, who is the predestination, the plan, the truth, the life, the resurrection yea the ALL THINGS of Gods COUNSEL.

I completely agree... ALL THINGS... including ALL GOOD and ALL EVIL... are noted parameters in the AGENDA, which proceeded from the WILL of GOD IN CHRIST (His WORD) ...Which "WORD" always COMES to PASS (in time) as noted in ETERNITY...

For there would be no SIN, nor would creation necessitate a SAVIOR slain from its foundation, if it was NOT designated to be so, emerging from the CREATOR as HIS DECLARATION...

peacE...
willieH   :gamer: 
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 09:58:25 PM by willieH »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #424 on: December 03, 2008, 10:19:50 PM »
Quote
from: bobf on December 02, 2008, 12:20:19 AM
 The type of control I envision God doing on a day to day basis would be more like training than controlling, except God is the perfect trainer. God knows exactly how I will respond to each lesson.  God knows exactly what I will choose in any situation.  But God is not "controlling" like on a leash, He is interacting with my will and choices as flawed as they are.  Sometimes though, God does control by force like when he put Jonah inside of a fish.  But that's the extreme, not the norm.


Bob, or anyone, if you are in a prison cell, are you free to leave any time you want? I know you can say you have a will that is free to do what you want IN the cell but that is not within the scope of the point I am making. Are you free to leave the cell whenever you want?

God has violated every man's will and locked up their minds in a way that they are not free to be persuaded as to the truth.

God has His own prison. And He locks up all mankind in that prison. Are they free to leave when they "chooooooooooose" to?
"God locks up all in unpersuadableness that He should be merciful to all" (Romans 11:32).

Do they have a free will to unlock their minds and be persuaded concerning the truth? Are their wills more powerful than God's will to imprison them against their wills?

"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" Rom 11:36

Hi Tony, tell me is the door to the prison house open or closed?

According to scripture Jesus opened the prison doors and set the captives free, so yes you are free to leave the cell.

Romans was written long after Jesus died. It is in the present tense: "God locks up all . . . ." The prison door is locked. Only those who, in this lifetime, get mercy are the ones unlocked.

So, no, you are not free to leave the cell.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.