Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?

[Molly]

I have always thought that the reason we are to not judge others that aren't doing as we might expect is because we have no true way to gauge the nature of someones choices.  Do I see that freedom in my own life?  Yes, but not all through my life.  But I only see that now, not while I was in the midst of doing things I shouldn't.

well, see, this is the point.  There is a type of free will that the child has and a type of free will that the man has.   The child has the freedom (if he is not watched) to run out into the street.  He makes that choice not knowing the consequences.   The man has a greater freedom to know the consequences.  He is more mature, wiser, with more experience.   This gives him a greater freedom to make choices that are beneficial.  But, even so, all day long we see men making choices for death.  They have chosen to serve another god.  We could say they are blinded, some are, or they are evil, some are.   If they know what is evil and choose evil, which many do, then they are evil.

One can throw up one's hands and say, it's up to God.  But, we have Christ, and so have true freedom of will, able to see the whole picture and make the right choice.

...and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

--2 Cor 3

[bobf]

Doesn't the fact that he gives the command to choose life indicate that it is possible?

No. That is an assumption on your part.

Here Jesus told a rich man what he needed to do to inherit aionion life.  Does that prove that the man was able to do it?

• Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Jesus said that a camel can go through the eye of a needle about as easily as this man can do what Jesus told him.  Is a camel able to go through the eye of a needle?

• Luke 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Finally Jesus flat out says it is impossible for a man to enter the kingdom of God on his own.

• Luke 18:26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Or does he have all those witnesses in heaven and earth to prove to them it's not possible?  But we have Christ, and now the witnesses are meant to see that it is possible--at least for some.

It is possible, just not apart from God.  Were those witnesses never dead in trespasses and sins?  Were those witnesses not given the gift of faith by which they did the things they did?

• Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If man can conform Himself to the image of Christ by the power of his own free will, then he does not need a Savior.  He just needs to do what God says.  He needs NOTHING more than commandments telling him what to do.  He does not need God beyond that.

[Molly]

If man can conform Himself to the image of Christ by the power of his own free will, then he does not need a Savior.  He just needs to do what God says.  He needs NOTHING more than commandments telling him what to do.  He does not need God beyond that.

Likewise, if God tells you not to steal, and you make a career out of stealing from widows and orphans, whose fault it that?  You want to lay that one on God?  Do you think career criminals don't know that what they are doing is wrong?  Even a little child knows that it is wrong to steal.

[Paul Hazelwood]

One can throw up one's hands and say, it's up to God.  But, we have Christ, and so have true freedom of will, able to see the whole picture and make the right choice.

...and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

--2 Cor 3

What is the implication of saying you have Christ, but not making the right choice?

[Paul Hazelwood]

[ Do you think career criminals don't know that what they are doing is wrong? 

What I want to know is why this example always seems to use the example of the banner sins, the big ones.

Hitler is mentioned, murderers, homosexuals, thieves, seems this is also pertaining to what we can see physically.

What about the people who bring this up, what about themselves.  Are you perfect, how does this reasoning apply to your own life in an example?

Not trying to be insulting,  its just people often comne across as if since they are not a murderer and a thief,  they have christ and are without sin, or it implies that their sins are "different".

Are they?

I know that I am not perfect, I know that in my heart, certainly if ET is true, I'm going there, but otherwise, probably at times the only true difference between myself and a death row inmate is I cannot be put in jail for what I think towards someone sometimes.

I cry out to God to remove some of the thinking I have, and I suppose he is in his way, but certainly I find myself repeating over and over things I think I don't want in my life, yet they are still there.

Am I evil?  What makes the difference?

[Molly]

One can throw up one's hands and say, it's up to God.  But, we have Christ, and so have true freedom of will, able to see the whole picture and make the right choice.

...and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

--2 Cor 3

What is the implication of saying you have Christ, but not making the right choice?

  Why is everyone so terrified of freedom?  I might make a mistake.  I don't want freedom.  Let somebody else make the mistake. Let someone else be responsible.   Blame God.

If the good guys are afraid of freedom, then the bad guys will be more than happy to take it away.

But, we have a High Priest who can make intercession for us before the throne of God if we make a mistake.



21And having an high priest over the house of God;

 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

--Heb 10

[Shadow]

What I want to know is why this example always seems to use the example of the banner sins, the big ones.

Hitler is mentioned, murderers, homosexuals, thieves, seems this is also pertaining to what we can see physically.

What about the people who bring this up, what about themselves.  Are you perfect, how does this reasoning apply to your own life in an example?

Not trying to be insulting,  its just people often comne across as if since they are not a murderer and a thief,  they have christ and are without sin, or it implies that their sins are "different".

Are they?

I know that I am not perfect, I know that in my heart, certainly if ET is true, I'm going there, but otherwise, probably at times the only true difference between myself and a death row inmate is I cannot be put in jail for what I think towards someone sometimes.

I cry out to God to remove some of the thinking I have, and I suppose he is in his way, but certainly I find myself repeating over and over things I think I don't want in my life, yet they are still there.

Am I evil?  What makes the difference?

Well said 

We have a dilemma 

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Jas 2:10  For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all

Rom 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15  Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16  Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17  And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18  There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Looks like were not off the hook yet

1Jn 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Conclusion: were all still sinners

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

[Paul Hazelwood]

What is the implication of saying you have Christ, but not making the right choice?

 

Why is everyone so terrified of freedom?  I might make a mistake.  I don't want freedom.  Let somebody else make the mistake. Let someone else be responsible.   Blame God.

If the good guys are afraid of freedom, then the bad guys will be more than happy to take it away.

But, we have a High Priest who can make intercession for us before the throne of God if we make a mistake.



21And having an high priest over the house of God;

 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

--Heb 10

I do not see how that answers my question?    Do you think that "believers" make  uuuhh hem  "mistakes"    But non believers then are evil sinners?

[Molly]

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

This is not the end of the story.    Who could keep his company faithfully and still continually desire to do what is evil?  He is so pure, so Holy, so good, so Wonderful that we are transformed just by keeping company with him.


2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

[Nathan]

I think part of the logic that goes with the extreme examples of using Hitler and the like, is to say that "if" these guys find mercy for what "they've" done . . .then I most definitely will also.  And I agree with that as well.

If ET turns out to be true . . .it's no different than my take on the rapture . . .if I'm wrong, then I'll be raptured up just like everyone else.  If there is this eternal torment . . . I'm still not going to be among those that are assumed to be there because I've met the requirements of salvation, I "believe" Jesus is the Christ.  I just personally don't believe the hell thing is an eternal place . . .neither is the time spent in the lake of fire.  

I do believe the lake itself is eternal as I see this as God who is "the" refining fire in all of us.  And I could also go so far to say that my flesh, my carnality could also be in this lake of fire eternally as well . .but as for "me", when the purification is complete, the need to remain in refinement is no longer necessary in that sense.  Perhaps we are like bars of gold in the melting pot of God.  His fire changes our matter from a solid to a liquid and once we reach that realm where solid becomes liquid, that we simply all become one pool of purity.  A pool that is then "poured" out as a drink offering to God through the fire of his refining Son.

Sometimes these kinds of arguments confuse me.  The free will issue is a head-scratcher with me as it seems to be such a sensitive topic when dealing with UR.  Still not sure why that is.  There are strong passions on both sides of it to the point where the tone of the posts can sometimes become a bit agressive.  Could it be that there is an agreement on the subject, but the explanations and interpretations of the explanations sort of cloud up what's actually being said?

For me, there is a choice given to us.  I have the freedom to choose whether to walk in blessings or curses.  To walk in blessing is to pursue Christ.  To walk in curses is to embrace the works of the flesh.  It's up to me whether or not I wish to have the umbrella of God over me or not.  But at the same time, to say that I have a choice whether I wish to spend all of eternity in hell or heaven is a totally different matter.

[bobf]

Likewise, if God tells you not to steal, and you make a career out of stealing from widows and orphans, whose fault it that?  You want to lay that one on God?  Do you think career criminals don't know that what they are doing is wrong?  Even a little child knows that it is wrong to steal.

The fault lies in the heart & will of man.  So God finds fault where there is fault even though God makes vessels of dishonor.  Why does the child who steals need "the rod" to save him?  All he really needs is his free will plus the command not to steal.

• Proverbs 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

[Molly]

What is the implication of saying you have Christ, but not making the right choice?

 

Why is everyone so terrified of freedom?  I might make a mistake.  I don't want freedom.  Let somebody else make the mistake. Let someone else be responsible.   Blame God.

If the good guys are afraid of freedom, then the bad guys will be more than happy to take it away.

But, we have a High Priest who can make intercession for us before the throne of God if we make a mistake.



21And having an high priest over the house of God;

 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

--Heb 10

I do not see how that answers my question?    Do you think that "believers" make  uuuhh hem  "mistakes"    But non believers then are evil sinners?

Cain had to be sent out of the presence of God.  God is too Holy to be in the presence of such evil.  But now we have Christ who can bridge the gap perfectly between man and God.  Therefore, there is no longer anything standing in our way, preventing us from being reconciled.

... and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

--Hos 1

[Paul Hazelwood]

What is the implication of saying you have Christ, but not making the right choice?

 

Why is everyone so terrified of freedom?  I might make a mistake.  I don't want freedom.  Let somebody else make the mistake. Let someone else be responsible.   Blame God.

If the good guys are afraid of freedom, then the bad guys will be more than happy to take it away.

But, we have a High Priest who can make intercession for us before the throne of God if we make a mistake.



21And having an high priest over the house of God;

 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

--Heb 10

I do not see how that answers my question?    Do you think that "believers" make  uuuhh hem  "mistakes"    But non believers then are evil sinners?

Cain had to be sent out of the presence of God.  God is too Holy to be in the presence of such evil.  But now we have Christ who can bridge the gap perfectly between man and God.  Therefore, there is no longer anything standing in our way, preventing us from being reconciled.

... and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

--Hos 1

This is why I do not think that is answering my question.   No matter who you think is willfully disobeying God and not making the choice to come to christ,  do you believe they will be reconciled as well?  You seem to indicate that you do.

So with that said,  why look upon anyone as evil no matter what they do and why is someone who says they have Christ, but still sin any different?

You still sin, why are you any different?

[bobf]

For me, there is a choice given to us.  I have the freedom to choose whether to walk in blessings or curses.  To walk in blessing is to pursue Christ.  To walk in curses is to embrace the works of the flesh.  It's up to me whether or not I wish to have the umbrella of God over me or not.  But at the same time, to say that I have a choice whether I wish to spend all of eternity in hell or heaven is a totally different matter.

Don't you find somewhat of a contradition in those two?  How is God going to get you into His kingdom if you keep "free willingly" choose the curses?  Is God powerless to save because He gave you a "free" will?  Or does God's sovereignity extend over your will?  God can either can or can not alter a sinful heart that would continue choosing the curses ad infinitum.

[bobf]

But now we have Christ who can bridge the gap perfectly between man and God.  Therefore, there is no longer anything standing in our way, preventing us from being reconciled.

Sure there is.  Unbelief in the gospel.  Fortunately God is able to take away that sin too.  (Romans 11)

[Shadow]

This is not the end of the story.    Who could keep his company faithfully and still continually desire to do what is evil?  He is so pure, so Holy, so good, so Wonderful that we are transformed just by keeping company with him.


2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I never implied it was (I'm sure no one else on here did either, for that matter), I agree that once one is converted, that it should not be a license to sin

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

However

1Jn 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[Molly]

But now we have Christ who can bridge the gap perfectly between man and God.  Therefore, there is no longer anything standing in our way, preventing us from being reconciled.

Sure there is.  Unbelief in the gospel.  Fortunately God is able to take away that sin too.  (Romans 11)

Yes, in the sense that it's on man's head now.


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

[Molly]

For me, there is a choice given to us.  I have the freedom to choose whether to walk in blessings or curses.  To walk in blessing is to pursue Christ.  To walk in curses is to embrace the works of the flesh.  It's up to me whether or not I wish to have the umbrella of God over me or not.  But at the same time, to say that I have a choice whether I wish to spend all of eternity in hell or heaven is a totally different matter.

Don't you find somewhat of a contradition in those two?  How is God going to get you into His kingdom if you keep "free willingly" choose the curses?  Is God powerless to save because He gave you a "free" will?  Or does God's sovereignity extend over your will?  God can either can or can not alter a sinful heart that would continue choosing the curses ad infinitum.

It's meaningful to Jesus that some will die in their sins.  He warned the Pharisees of this.  Hitler died in his sins.  He never repented.  He never tried to make it better.  He never showed a contrite heart for the suffering and death he brought upon the world. 


John 8:21

Then said Jesus again unto them,  I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins; whither I go, ye can not come.

[bobf]

Yes, in the sense that it's on man's head now.

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Yes, man has the choice to believe and obey or not.  But only because of God will turn away ungodliness will all believe and obey and be saved.

• Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

God's promise will not be thwarted by man willing himself to be an enemy of the gospel.  God will take away that sin.

• Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

In times past I did not believe the gospel, but obtained MERCY not a superior free will.

• Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[bobf]

It's meaningful to Jesus that some will die in their sins.  He warned the Pharisees of this.  Hitler died in his sins.  He never repented.  He never tried to make it better.  He never showed a contrite heart for the suffering and death he brought upon the world.

How will God get Hitler into the kingdom of God?  How will God keep Hitler from continuing in the same sin in the resurrection?

[Paul Hazelwood]

It's meaningful to Jesus that some will die in their sins.  He warned the Pharisees of this.  Hitler died in his sins.  He never repented.  He never tried to make it better.  He never showed a contrite heart for the suffering and death he brought upon the world. 

Who won't die in that manner?

[Molly]

It's meaningful to Jesus that some will die in their sins.  He warned the Pharisees of this.  Hitler died in his sins.  He never repented.  He never tried to make it better.  He never showed a contrite heart for the suffering and death he brought upon the world.

How will God get Hitler into the kingdom of God?  How will God keep Hitler from continuing in the same sin in the resurrection?

You say you obtained mercy, not a superior free will.  Is the liberty you have in Christ of no effect then?

What keeps you from being Hitler?  A financial backer?

[Molly]

It's meaningful to Jesus that some will die in their sins.  He warned the Pharisees of this.  Hitler died in his sins.  He never repented.  He never tried to make it better.  He never showed a contrite heart for the suffering and death he brought upon the world. 

Who won't die in that manner?

You and I won't die in our sins.  You and I have crossed over to eternal life right now--as soon as we believed.

[Paul Hazelwood]

It's meaningful to Jesus that some will die in their sins.  He warned the Pharisees of this.  Hitler died in his sins.  He never repented.  He never tried to make it better.  He never showed a contrite heart for the suffering and death he brought upon the world. 

Who won't die in that manner?

You and I won't die in our sins.  You and I have crossed over to eternal life right now--as soon as we believed.

Then what significance is there to the sins we still commit?   How do we fully believe in that sense if we do not follow his commandments 100%?

[bobf]

You say you obtained mercy, not a superior free will.  Is the liberty you have in Christ of no effect then?

Let me rephrase what I meant.  I once did not believe the gospel but I obtained MERCY while in that state of unbelief.  I did not believe the gospel because my will was superior to others.  It was an act of MERCY on God's part to open my eyes.

What keeps you from being Hitler?  A financial backer?

God's mercy kept me from being Hitler.  I am just as guilty as Hitler.  For every finger I point at Hitler, I point one at myself.  What then are we better than they?  What then am I better than Hitler?  No.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the resurrection, how will God get Hilter into the kingdom of God.  What will keep Hilter from continuing in the same sin as on earth?