Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?

[Tony N]

Knowing the truth sets us free from being in bondage to sin.  In that sense, I agree it gives us a will that is free so that we know to choose the good and refuse the evil.

• John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

• Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

That being the case, no one had free will before Jesus spoke of the truth that would make them free. And no one has free will that does not know the truth Jesus spoke of. So God is sovereign only over those who do not know the truth but not sovereign over those who know the truth since they are free from God's interference in their wills. Anyone see something wrong with this picture?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Knowing the truth sets us free from being in bondage to sin.  In that sense, I agree it gives us a will that is free so that we know to choose the good and refuse the evil.

• John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

• Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

That being the case, no one had free will before Jesus spoke of the truth that would make them free. And no one has free will that does not know the truth Jesus spoke of. So God is sovereign only over those who do not know the truth but not sovereign over those who know the truth since they are free from God's interference in their wills. Anyone see something wrong with this picture?

It's not either / or.   The problem with this stance is that verses like the following have no significant value.

1C 6:12 All is allowed me, but not all is expedient. All is allowed me, but I'   will not be put under its authority by anything.




Why cannot God be sovereign by allowing us liberty within the confines of his direction of learning and the process of salvation?

If I am in prison, it can be said I am not free, however, do I lack the liberty to make the best of that? 

How does the above verse not indicate a choice of preference of ones will under the illumination of a walk with Christ?

[Tony N]

But Paul, they are saying that Christ came to set them free (give them free will) and that by knowing the truth, that know it will set them free (give them free will).

So no one had free will prior to being set free. And only those not set free are under God's sovereign control and hence have no free will.

As to your verse, should one heed what Paul wrote this is only by God's grace. God should be thanked should one heed. We do not have some sort of will apart from God's influence that would give us the ability to heed Paul's entreaties.

[bobf]

That being the case, no one had free will before Jesus spoke of the truth that would make them free. And no one has free will that does not know the truth Jesus spoke of. So God is sovereign only over those who do not know the truth but not sovereign over those who know the truth since they are free from God's interference in their wills. Anyone see something wrong with this picture?

Yeah I saw that but didn't bother bringing it up.  I see a somewhat shifting definition of free will.  Jesus was talking about the truth setting us free from bondage to sin, not about imparting the ability to choose where there was none before.  Knowing the truth compels any sane person to choose the good over the evil.  "Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

[Tony N]

Knowing the truth compels any sane person to choose the good over the evil.

Hi bob,
What about all the churches Paul wrote to? Did they not know the truth? Yet those early churches were rife with repugnant sins i.e. a boy having his father's mother, believers eating unworthily, etc. It seems Paul was always correcting them. Were they all insane?

[Paul Hazelwood]

But Paul, they are saying that Christ came to set them free (give them free will) and that by knowing the truth, that know it will set them free (give them free will).

So no one had free will prior to being set free. And only those not set free are under God's sovereign control and hence have no free will.

As to your verse, should one heed what Paul wrote this is only by God's grace. God should be thanked should one heed. We do not have some sort of will apart from God's influence that would give us the ability to heed Paul's entreaties.

If someone is saying that our freedom allows us to part from Gods will then I would disagree.  What I am saying is scripture shows God giving freedom to choose what we prefer in some cases and despite those choices we are still within Gods will.   

If I go and thump someone on the head I do not see it as God controlling me to do that, do you? Perhaps you do.

I see God contemplating Mans many ways and despite his ways, he has planned for his will to be done anyway.  Gods foreknowledge of who I might have thumped does not remove the freedom I had to choose a light or darker path. 

 However, I know by my own life there was a time where I was in bondage to something and cannot say I could have chosen a light path.  I also see where God was a lamp unto my feet and I did not choose the light and suffered because of it. 

When I have been aware that God is presenting something for me to choose I have known a suffering that I dare not to want to repeat by taking a path I knew full well I should not have.  I allowed my flesh to prevail when I knew I should have resisted.  Had I resisted, would have God ignored my desire to resist?   Even if I tried, would I just be trying to fool God into thinking I am trying to resist when in my heart i knew full well whatg I wanted to try to get to happen?

It simply was easier at the moment of choice to not resist.

God also illuminated the way of escape despite my foolish choice.   

Yes, it was indeed Gods grace that allowed me that liberty. His Grace I honor, because I know my own heart as well and even as I write this I want things I know I should not have because I think they are worth having, but it not grace that just controls what I do.   God is not willing me to desire those wrong things.  It is the lack of understanding that remains within me.

Where religious doctrines like calvinism come from is that they see that same illuminating factor in scripture, they just do not believe it is given to all of humanity.

[bobf]

Hi bob,
What about all the churches Paul wrote to? Did they not know the truth? Yet those early churches were rife with repugnant sins i.e. a boy having his father's mother, believers eating unworthily, etc. It seems Paul was always correcting them. Were they all insane?

They did not know the truth.  There is a difference between hearing the truth (with my ears) and hearing the truth.

• 1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

• 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

[Tony N]

Hi Paul, I see what you are saying about doing something and suffering for it. But what if God wanted you to learn a specific lesson? What if  He knew that by you experiencing the hardship of doing something wrong would cause you to grow in the Lord? And so would He be wrong to have you make the wrong decision to show you your weakness?

Case in point: the law of Moses. God knew they could not keep it and that trying to keep it, for one thing, would make them want to lust more than before. Yet He knew it would lead them to Christ. Was God wrong to do that to them all those years?

I'm not saying God forces you to walk up and thump someone on the head. Or does He? Didn't He force certain nations to come against Israel and take them captive? Did He not force the Jews and Romans to thump the Lord on the head? . . . that good may come?

But in the realm of personal responsibility on the human level, we should try our best to eschew all evil and love our enemies and do good. We should try to heed Paul's entreaties to lead a good, peaceful life and show the fruit of the spirit. But any success in that area is all due to God to Whom all thanks should flow. Right?

[bobf]

I'm not saying God forces you to walk up and thump someone on the head. Or does He? Didn't He force certain nations to come against Israel and take them captive? Did He not force the Jews and Romans to thump the Lord on the head? . . . that good may come?

No.  Forcing someone to do something implies they do so against their wills.  That's not what happened.

[Tony N]

Hi bob,
What about all the churches Paul wrote to? Did they not know the truth? Yet those early churches were rife with repugnant sins i.e. a boy having his father's mother, believers eating unworthily, etc. It seems Paul was always correcting them. Were they all insane?

They did not know the truth.  There is a difference between hearing the truth (with my ears) and hearing the truth.

• 1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

• 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

[/list]

Bob, do you keep all the commandments 24/7? If you break one commandment you are guilty of all. Furthermore, the believers of the nations are not under commandment keeping but grace.

Also, all the believers Paul wrote to were . . . guess what . . . drum roll: believers! They were all "complete in Christ" (Col.2:10). They were doing that which you quote above and they were believers who were justified and made righteous yet they were not insane. They knew the truth.

[bobf]

Bob, do you keep all the commandments 24/7?

No.

If you break one commandment you are guilty of all.

True.  But if you fulfill one commandment you are not-guilty of all.

• Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Furthermore, the believers of the nations are not under commandment keeping but grace.

What in the world does that mean?  Why did Paul tell people what to do and what not to do if the people he was addressing were not "under" the things Paul told them.

Are the words of Christ not for me?

Also, all the believers Paul wrote to were . . . guess what . . . drum roll: believers! They were all "complete in Christ" (Col.2:10). They were doing that which you quote above and they were believers who were justified and made righteous yet they were not insane. They knew the truth.

They knew the truth, even though Paul "could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal" because "hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able"?

Colossians 2:10 is predicated on abiding in Christ.

• Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[Doc]

I honestly think the main reason why it's so hard for some to believe all "go to Heaven" (I would replace this with; are restored) one day is because our hardened hearts don't really want to believe it...

I mean, God couldn't be THAT good and powerful, could he? 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...

The term is still IRRELEVANT... as I noted, my arms and legs are alive, and are NOT "PUPPETS" even though they ARE part of My body, and fully cooperate with the WILL of my "head"...

Yes indeed it is irrevalent, because we are not puppets since puppets are not aware nor do they have any liberty directly apart from their puppet master.

Paul... to name a PUPPETMASTER is as irrelevant as naming PUPPETS... Liberty is IN CHRIST, not in the NATURAL "will" which exists before HE enters its circumstances... He comes upon the WILL of men, which are IN BONDAGE, and CREATES FREEDOM... by HIS WILL...

However, does a clay pot have any liberty apart from the potter?  Well, if that was the "only" verse in the bible concerning our will and direction, perhaps.

If we have no liberty within our will to make choices based on what "we" prefer whether or not God knows the final score before hand, then, irrevalent or not, that IS what we are.

No, that is what YOU determine YOU "are"... Do not include me in your grouping... 

You reduce the WORD of GOD to be a "report" of what MEN DID, instead of the proclamation of what HE SAID they would do... (Rom 11:32 / Rom 14:23)

His WORD is ETERNAL, and not dependent upon the actions of behaviors of MEN... or the chronological manifestation of TIME...

On the contrary... MEN are dependent upon HIS WORD to be what and where they are in this realm... for HE is working ALL (not some) THINGS ...after the counsel (advising) of HIS OWN WILL (not the "will" of men) (Eph 1:11) 

... not by their supposed and UNBIBLICAL, "free will"...

Free will is not entirely unscriptural or there would be no need for a verse such as this.

Ps 54:6 I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O LORD; for [it is] good.

Paul... thanks for quoting this verse, it absolutely makes my point... 

(1)  Any "sacrifice" that is acceptable to GOD, is GOD INFLUENCED and COMMANDED...  CAIN brought his (supposed) "free will" offering to GOD, and it was REJECTED because it was NOT what GOD had requested, rather it was what CAIN offered of HIS WILL, not GOD's... displaying that when MEN "choose", their "choosing", found OUTSIDE of the requests of GOD, is in fact, ...IN BONDAGE... and UNACCEPTABLE! 

(2)  GOD inhabits PRAISE... (Ps 22:3), ...so any "PRAISE" that proceeds FROM MEN, is because GOD is bringing it forth, by His INHABITATION of it... 

(3)  Anything which is FREE (sacrifice in this case), is MADE FREE by the WORD of GOD (John 8:32, 36)...

Nothing which is "FREE" or contains "PRAISE" for GOD, emerges from a HEART which by NATURE is DESPARATELY WICKED, Paul (Jer 17:9)

What DOES emerge from a DESPARATELY WICKED heart, is WICKEDNESS which is fervently, and selfishly (desparately) seeking its own...

It is the understanding of it that often is.   Are we so free that we actually can choose an eternal hell?  No, I believe not. 

Are we so bound as not to ever be able to offer something to the Lord voluntarily?   No I believe not.

What of YOUR WORK (which proceeds from YOU, of your "free will", UNINFLUENCED by CHRIST) can you present before GOD, and EXPECT it to be ACCEPTABLE to Him, Paul?  (1 Cor 3:10-15) 

As I previously noted  (in Cain's case - or any other man), nothing, ...NOTHING we can "offer" to GOD is acceptable save CHRIST's sacrifice on our behalf... all other offerings are FILTHY and UNACCEPTABLE... (as was Cain's "offering")

Is there a time when we are completely confined?  Perhaps

Ro 8:7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.

Is there a time when we can choose light or darkness and that choice is a matter of our will within what God sets before us?  Perhaps

In this statement you propose (perhaps) that YOU "CHOOSE" ...LIGHT of your OWN DOING... [CHRIST is the LIGHT - (John 1:9)]...

DEFYING the statement of Scripture which says:

(John 6:44) ...no man CAN [is unable of himself to] come to ME, ...EXCEPT... the Father which hath sent Me, draw him...

Jn 8:11 Now she said,  "No one, Lord!"  Now Jesus said,  "Neither am I condemning you. Go! From now on by no means any longer be sinning."

The prostitute was given light, perhaps before her encounter with Jesus she was bound and unable to do anything but be a prostitute.  Could her encounter with Jesus bring that light and an amount of liberty, opening and broadening her will and her freedom?

 :omg:  You note a prostitute as IN FREEDOM... and that the "will" of this one, has her inherent NATURAL will ...enhanced... by its "broadening"!   

She is OBVIOUSLY in BONDAGE, or her choice of profession would be HONORABLE... However, her choice of profession only serves to show that her "choosing" is anything but FREE... it is ENSLAVED to itself, standing outside that which IS FREE ...(CHRIST - the WORD of GOD which CREATES FREEDOM)

JESUS is the WORD... it is the WORD which makes one FREE... (John 8:32,36) 

If we believe what SCRIPTURE states, ...that it is the WORD which MAKES one FREE... then one must be OTHERWISE, prior to the WORD enacting FREEDOM in that one... 

Relegating the WILL which is inherent and NATURAL, to be in a state which is EXEMPT of FREEDOM, before the WORD creates that characteristic within IT...

Okay... then you acknowledge that they were INSTRUCTED, yet failed to follow that INSTRUCTION, and thereby justify you own lack?  The WILL of GOD is to be done exclusively in the HEAVENLIES and IN EARTH as well... (Matt 6:10)

Adam & Eve could not DISOBEY the INSTRUCTION unless the HEAD gave them the power to do so... 

I point out that what you write is not as simple as you think you are explaining it.  Did God's will for Adam and Eve include the instruction to do his will as you write in the quote below?

Furthermore... we are INSTRUCTED to do the WILL of GOD... and it is our DESTINY as well... so WHY not be AMIDST it even NOW, Paul?

Did Gods instruction to do the will of God include the instruction to Sin?

GOD DECLARED the End from the Beginning Paul... within the course of that DECLARATION, ...sin... occured in the middle... which means that MAN would SIN because GOD had DECLARED it to be so...  HE concludes ALL in UNBELIEF, of HIS DECISION... You HAD no choice... you ARE a SINNER, because GOD concludes you in that state bro...

He did NOT instruct man to SIN, ...He DECLARED that man would SIN, and the WORD of GOD always DECLARES the truth for the WORD of GOD ...is... the TRUTH! (John 14:6) ...the DECLARED SIN, was thereby manifest in the actions of Adam & Eve, and ALL subsequent men and women that followed them as their descendents...

The DECLARATION of GOD, sets in motion the NATURAL HABIT and GRAVITATION to DISOBEDIENCE of His Command, which IS SIN... 

Not because "men" decide this... by the enaction of a will which they percieve as  FREE, rather, by the TRUTH that MEN are subject to the CREATOR and HIS MOLDING of them... (Jer 29:14 / 18:4) which includes SUFFERING, SIN and DEATH in TIME, ...but IN ETERNITY, results in LIFE due the GRACE which MUCH MORE abounds in and amongst this process...

I do not speak to convince you of anything... rather, I pose opposition to what you "see" in Scripture now... thereby giving others a different "vision" of it...

And therefor making my point,  "You" pose by the inclusion of the word "I".

Please Paul... I am a finite, and am obligated to use terms in communicating... That "I" use the word "I", is not a claim that "I" am FREE as an individual apart from GOD... rather is noting that another OUTSIDE yourself, is communicating with you...

GOD, in His declaration of our lives and His Creation, has given you and I the ability to "choose"... however, those choices are according TO, ...HIS Working of ALL THINGS which are subject to HIS WILL... Nothing in the creation of YHVH is OUTSIDE of Him, as the Apostle Paul noted (Acts 17:28)...

ALL that exists, and takes place, in Creation is WITHIN God... to INCLUDE our BONDAGE and HIS FREEDOM... 

As I just stated, it is not my agenda to change what you believe... you are more than welcome to your observations...  If and when words I post are in opposition of what you believe... you are welcome to take it or, ...leave it, ...no sweat!!     

I have never posted any words suggesting that you must believe as I do, but if this instruction is important to you, then I know that you will follow your own advise.

Overcomplication...    ...I did not IMPLY that you have stated this... I was volunteering to you, that you are welcome to reject anything I say... 

...I can live with that, can you?  ...hope so bro! 

This is a discussion forum where we post our thoughts, since it is likely that you have not read every single post that I write, you will have no doubt missed posts where I accept the correction when how I see things appears to be in error.

I already live with that.

This is entirely true... Again, I wasn't trying to imply that you have no humility or are not one who accepts correction... only that if we are really seeking the truth, when GOD presents it to us in any given area, ...we must all lay ourselves prostrate before it... 

btw... don't be so defensive bro... I look upon you as quite intelligent, and well-read!   

Let that be a platform for confidence, and know that I do not seek to violate that confidence... My hope is to submit that which I believe concerning a premise (not only to YOU, but others which might read those thoughts), and then leave it in GOD's hands to either use it or not, as He should choose,  ...TO whom He might choose to use it as information.

peacE...
willieH   

[Tony N]

Tony wrote: Furthermore, the believers of the nations are not under commandment keeping but grace.

Bob replied: What in the world does that mean?  Why did Paul tell people what to do and what not to do if the people he was addressing were not "under" the things Paul told them.

Are the words of Christ not for me?

Do you mean the words Christ spoke to the circumcision believers? No, friend, they are not for you to follow. You can learn from them but are not under any demand to do them. For instance you are not under the command to cut off your hand or pluck out your eye under the current administration of grace.

but now we are venturing away from the main topic aren't we?

[bobf]

Do you mean the words Christ spoke to the circumcision believers? No, friend, they are not for you to follow. You can learn from them but are not under any demand to do them. For instance you are not under the command to cut off your hand or pluck out your eye under the current administration of grace.

but now we are venturing away from the main topic aren't we?

Well, I disagree, but I'll let it go at that.

[YoungYuni]

Just from reading this I know we all have free will but where we are free, God is more free; and where we have a will, God's will is more powerful.

It is a parent/child relationship, there are times the parent let's the child roam around freely doing things because that is part of growing up. When the child makes a mistake, the parent is there to protect, direct, and correct the child so that he doesn't repeat the mistake.

A union of two wills in harmony, working for the greater good of the child and his maturity. Yes, it was good for God, that He did this for mankind. His will is directed to us, to our maturity. I disagree with some here who said He did it for Himself, love is not selfish, so neither is God.

God has shown us an example in our lives exactly how He is doing it. He just doesn't fail, and when a child seems untrainable to his earthy father, nothing is impossible for our Heavenly Father because love never gives up.

It appears to me, that those who do not accept the will of God for their lives, are in rebellion, another facet of a will that was free to accept or reject what God has done. Like the Prodigal son, the Father has already given us our inheritance now and some are spoiling it away on things that will never return but that doesn't stop the Father from calling us His child.

Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?

The same reason why some here find it hard to believe that everyone has a free will concerning the choices we make in our lives. They do not want to believe it because the find it impossible that God was powerful enough to do it.

I might be new to understanding the salvation of everyone, but like free will, it just makes sense. It took me awhile to see it even though God had made it obvious to everyone. He stands at the door knocking, and we need to open the door to understanding.

 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi YY...

First,    ...might I welcome you to TENTMAKER!  Glad you are here! 

Second, ...Please do not take my comments personal... I mean them in the gentlest way...

Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?

The same reason why some here find it hard to believe that everyone has a free will concerning the choices we make in our lives. They do not want to believe it because the find it impossible that God was powerful enough to do it.

The very same thing can be said in REVERSE, YY!

Some here find it hard to believe that their WILL is NOT FREE concerning the "choices" made in their lives... 

They do not want to BELIEVE it because they find it IMPOSSIBLE that GOD is IN CONTROL and yet there is FREEDOM in that CONTROL!! 

And because they do not have this VISION of FREEDOM in the SPIRIT, ...they NATURALLY and unknowingly deduce He is "SOMEMIGHTY" instead of "ALMIGHTY", ...enabling them to retain the NATURAL vision they have of their "will" as being "free"...

I might be new to understanding the salvation of everyone, but like free will, it just makes sense.

A couple of responses:

MAKES SENSE???:

Yes UR makes SENSE, because it displays GOD as an equal opportunity Savior...

But to you, ...FREE WILL MAKES SENSE?  If men have "FREE WILL", and it is really "FREE", why does the WORD of TRUTH have to be applied to them to MAKE them FREE?  FREE of what? 

Spiritual agendas often, do NOT MAKE SENSE in the NATURAL view... for instance...

(1) Why did GOD send His SON to DIE for our sin?  Why didn't He just "snap His fingers" and POOF!  Everything is hunky-dorry? 

(2)  Why didn't Pharaoh release the people upon Moses' first request?  THAT makes sense... GOD sent Moses to ask.. and then made Pharaoh REFUSE!  What SENSE is in that procedure?

Why did it take several times?  Well "SPIRITUAL SENSE" is a PICTURE... which in this instance, shows to both Moses (good) AND Pharaoh (evil)... that NO MAN is in control of the DELIVERANCE, as to when it shall be... GOD is IN CONTROL of it... displaying to BOTH this "SPIRITUAL SENSE"... and working in BOTH, according to HIS WILL, and NOT their own...

What does the WORD of GOD free us from?  The Apostle PAUL, WROTE Scripture, yet noted that SIN was still present with him (Rom 7:25), as Did the Apostle JOHN (John 1:8) proclaim that SIN was still a present issue...

So the WORD does not in an instant, FREE us completely from SIN, while in this life, it the "race" we run which Paul notes...

If we observe in the Spirit, ...we are not running against one another, ...we are running against OURSELVES... racing in the strength of the FREE and SPIRITUAL WILL of GOD, to gain victory over the NATURAL and ENSLAVED will of our flesh...

1 Cor 9:24  ...Know ye not that they which are in a race run all, but ONE receiveth the prize?  So run, that ye may obtain...

We RACE not against each other... this is NOT a competition dear sister... it is a RACE we run against OURSELVES... and the PRIZE is given to (each) ONE... LIFE everlasting, given to each ONE, ...ONE "Everlasting WINNER" at a TIME...  +  + +   = 

FREE???:

What does the WORD of GOD, FREE us from, YY?   

It FREES us from, ...US!! ...for it is our "decision making" (will) that is the problem!

The Creation of FREEDOM by the WORD is a process which takes TIME... Not just a, ...POOF! --  You're free now, just because you read a few verses in the Bible!

The WORD, during the course of our lifetimes... shines in different areas of our lives, ...and as did Moses come to Pharaoh several times, ...enacts a PROCESS...

The WORD comes to ONE several times and addresses ones CAPTOR (Sin)...  Each time one yields to the WORD and UTILIZES the SPIRITUAL strength of the WORD, ...ones "CAPTOR" (ones "will" which produces sin) loses a portion of its NATURAL grip upon that one...

CAPTIVITY is seen in the person of PHARAOH... IMPRISONING the PEOPLE of GOD... Insisting upon their CAPTIVITY...  the WILL of a MAN...

FREEDOM is represented in the person of MOSES (WORD of GOD - requesting HIS WILL which is FREEDOM to be done)... the WILL of GOD...

Each time the WORD addresses our CAPTIVITY and we REFUSE, clinging to our CAPTIVITY (as with Pharaoh)... we REAP what we SEW... and the various awful plagues which life is well able to present, come IN FORCE, BURDENING us, HARMING us, and instilling SORROW in our lives... (as they did the plagues assault Pharaoh and HIS kingdom)

It took me awhile to see it even though God had made it obvious to everyone. He stands at the door knocking, and we need to open the door to understanding.

 

 :omg: ...WE???  ...need to open the door of understanding?  I don't think so! 

MEN only come to understand, because GOD opens the door of it by REVEALING Himself to them! 

This is NOT how you or I, "are saved" OR, how we come to "understand", YY! 

GOD draws ["drag" in the Greek] us to HIMSELF (John 6:44), ...WE are not saved because WE, "opened the door"... WE only OPEN the DOOR, because HE ...KNOCKED upon it... 

peacE...
willieH   

[Molly]

What about this:
Rev 17:17 "for God imparts to their hearts to form His opinion, and to form one opinion, and to give their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God shall be accomplished."

Are they free to have a different opinion other than the one Almighty God imparts to them?

I'm thinking that is some type of punishment for what they did earlier.  So he is using one group of bad people to punish another group of bad people (something he does more than once throughout the Bible).  The wild beast comes against the woman who is drunk on the blood of saints, the whore of Babylon, to burn her up and make her desolate.

So no, these people --this group--do not have what I would call free will at this point in time.


1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls  came and spoke with me: "Come, I will show you the judgment of the notorious prostitute  who sits on many  waters.  2 The kings of the earth committed sexual immorality with her, and those who live on the earth became drunk on the wine of her sexual immorality."  3 So he carried me away in the Spirit  to a desert. I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered  with blasphemous names, having seven heads and 10 horns.  4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, adorned with gold, precious stones, and pearls. She had a gold cup in her hand filled with everything vile  and with the impurities of her  prostitution. 5 On her forehead a cryptic name  was written:
    BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE VILE THINGS OF THE EARTH

    6 Then I saw that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints and on the blood of the witnesses to Jesus. When I saw her, I was utterly astounded.

--Rev 17
   

[Molly]

Knowing the truth sets us free from being in bondage to sin.  In that sense, I agree it gives us a will that is free so that we know to choose the good and refuse the evil.

• John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

• Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

That being the case, no one had free will before Jesus spoke of the truth that would make them free. And no one has free will that does not know the truth Jesus spoke of. So God is sovereign only over those who do not know the truth but not sovereign over those who know the truth since they are free from God's interference in their wills. Anyone see something wrong with this picture?

Our free will does not in any way interfere with God's sovereignty.   Does my dog's will interfere with my sovereignty?   If he is a good dog, he will do what I ask.  And, if he does what I ask, he gets treats.  (He's a good dog).  So, although he has a will of his own, he is motivated to do what I ask.   But, just because I allow him to explore freely on our walks in the woods doesn't mean I will let him attack and bite people.  If he does that, he will come up against my sovereignty.

God is not controlling people but we are responsible for our actions, or why would we need a Saviour?  Why would we need to repent?  That is the first word that Jesus uses when he begins his ministry:  Repent.

[bobf]

Our free will does not in any way interfere with God's sovereignty.

It does if God wants to save you from the rebellion in your free will and your free will is off limits to God.

Does my dog's will interfere with my sovereignty?

It does if
1. you want to train your dog to behave
2. your dog is stubborn and chooses not to listen to you
3. you dog's will is so free that you have no way to change it

If he is a good dog, he will do what I ask.  And, if he does what I ask, he gets treats.  (He's a good dog).  So, although he has a will of his own, he is motivated to do what I ask.   But, just because I allow him to explore freely on our walks in the woods doesn't mean I will let him attack and bite people.  If he does that, he will come up against my sovereignty.

I think you mean that you will forcibly stop him from biting.  But what if your goal is not to have to forcibly stop him, but to train him to not bite people on his own?  How are you going to CAUSE him be trained if his free will is outside of your control?

God is not controlling people but we are responsible for our actions...

That fact that you say "God is not controlling people" leads me to believe that you think I believe something I do not believe.   The type of control I envision God doing on a day to day basis would be more like training than controlling, except God is the perfect trainer. God knows exactly how I will respond to each lesson.  God knows exactly what I will choose in any situation.  But God is not "controlling" like on a leash, He is interacting with my will and choices as flawed as they are.  Sometimes though, God does control by force like when he put Jonah inside of a fish.  But that's the extreme, not the norm.

...or why would we need a Saviour?  Why would we need to repent?  That is the first word that Jesus uses when he begins his ministry:  Repent.

We need to repent because we have all gone the wrong way and we need change directions and follow Christ to be saved.  We need a Savior because we can not save ourselves.

God sovereignity includes the power to overthrow a rebellious spirit that exists in the will of man. The obstacles to salvation reside in the heart.  Those obstacles can not be "off limits" to God's sovereignity. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

Let that be a platform for confidence, and know that I do not seek to violate that confidence... My hope is to submit that which I believe concerning a premise (not only to YOU, but others which might read those thoughts), and then leave it in GOD's hands to either use it or not, as He should choose,  ...TO whom He might choose to use it as information.

    

[Molly]

God sovereignity includes the power to overthrow a rebellious spirit that exists in the will of man. The obstacles to salvation reside in the heart.  Those obstacles can not be "off limits" to God's sovereignity. 

What you are calling 'a rebellious spirit' is just the ability to make a choice outside of God's will for us. How could we be 'rebellious' without free will?  Given we really only have two choices: life or death, and given that God commands us to choose life, any choice outside of God's will for us is a choice for death.  That makes it pretty simple.  But it also proves free will--the ability to choose for God or against him.

Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

[bobf]

What you are calling 'a rebellious spirit' is just the ability to make a choice outside of God's will for us.

Then free will = a rebellious spirit??

Apparently there was not such a heart in them to choose life.  Instead there was another kind of heart -- a rebellious spirit.

• Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

How could we be 'rebellious' without free will?  Given we really only have two choices: life or death, and given that God commands us to choose life, any choice outside of God's will for us is a choice for death.  That makes it pretty simple.  But it also proves free will--the ability to choose for God or against him.

Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

If everyone has had equal ability to choose life or death, then why is it that 100% of mankind chose death first (Eph 2:1)?  Is there any reason for this?

• Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

God giving a command to chose life over death does not prove that man had the ability already within himself to choose life.  All mankind will ultimately choose life, just not independently of God's intervention.

[Molly]

Then free will = a rebellious spirit??

Only in the context of our God and in the context of choosing death.  If you take God out of the equation, then the person is just doing whatever he wants and it's neither good nor bad, --that's existentialism.

Eve didn't know that she was choosing death, but Adam did--he was not deceived.

God giving a command to chose life over death does not prove that man had the ability already within himself to choose life.

Doesn't the fact that he gives the command to choose life indicate that it is possible?  Or does he have all those witnesses in heaven and earth to prove to them it's not possible?  But we have Christ, and now the witnesses are meant to see that it is possible--at least for some.


Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Doesn't the fact that he gives the command to choose life indicate that it is possible?  Or does he have all those witnesses in heaven and earth to prove to them it's not possible?  But we have Christ, and now the witnesses are meant to see that it is possible--at least for some.

I have always thought that the reason we are to not judge others that aren't doing as we might expect is because we have no true way to gauge the nature of someones choices.  Do I see that freedom in my own life?  Yes, but not all through my life.  But I only see that now, not while I was in the midst of doing things I shouldn't.

I also have done things that turn out good, but honestly never really set out to do something good for God.

If one actually believes that Gods sovereignty will reconcile all mankind and that God has designed all of life, then there has to be the understanding of the lack of control we may have.

I think the greater problem is that we take a term  "Free-Will"  and argue around the term, rather than acknowledge what scripture implies despite the term.

We end up saying limited free will or use all kinds of other things rather than just placing scripture out and seeing how it will work in our lives.


When it comes down to it, ultimatly,  we are to heed instruction based upon how we know to do so rather than the thought that we have some kind of power we may not have in the first place.

Adam and Eve did not heed instruction, yet, God HAD to have designed life knowing they would not.  Given the aspect of a soveriegn God, rather than a well intended powerless HUMAN, it does imply that was his intention.

I believe that we are told to resist evil and bad things because it is intended that we do so eventually, it is also intended that we scratch and kick all the way through where God takes us as we ALL have been places in our lives, emotionally and spiritually and physically that we would rather not have been.  Some perhaps by choice, but can we say everyone has always has that free will conscious choices? Some  end up somewhere and wonder what the hell happened, people can deny this, but it is true, everyone has experienced these variations  on some level. 

We can argue terms and say there is not freedom,  or that we have freedom within certain boundaries, then we can argue that is not actually freedom, etc etc etc.

If we agree on either way according to the term, then what?    What do we do then, what is the next step?