Author Topic: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?  (Read 55904 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11312
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #300 on: November 29, 2008, 06:24:34 PM »
There is a big difference between not having a free will and not having any will at all (robot, puppet, stepford child).  We have a will that we use to make choices, it's just that our will is not free from God changing it.

  • Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.


Yes, but this includes if you have already hardened your heart through your own will, he makes it harder.  If you have already refused to believe him, as in the wilderness, he says, fine, then you will never enter the promised land.   Even Job is told to curse God and die, which he refuses to do.


Romans 10:21
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


Does he sound happy there?


2 I spread out My hands all day long
    to a rebellious people
    who walk in the wrong path,
    following their own thoughts.


--Isa 65



Does this sound like a God who is pleased with what people are doing?



11 But you who abandon the LORD,
    who forget My holy mountain,
    who prepare a table for Fortune
    and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny,

    12 I will destine you for the sword,
    and all of you will kneel down to be slaughtered,
    because I called and you did not answer,
    I spoke and you did not hear;
    you did what was evil in My sight
    and chose what I did not delight in.

--Isa 65



« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 06:53:49 PM by Molly »

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #301 on: November 29, 2008, 07:40:54 PM »
The story of Job is overlooked in many ways.

The interaction between God and Satan is practically pointless if God is just the puppet master dictating every single move.

Satan is not saying,  "Well God, of course Job worships you, you control his every move, DUUUH!"



bobf

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #302 on: November 29, 2008, 08:02:02 PM »
Yes, but this includes if you have already hardened your heart through your own will, he makes it harder.

Who did not harden their hearts first?

Quote
If you have already refused to believe him, as in the wilderness, he says, fine, then you will never enter the promised land.

Who did not refuse to believe Him first?

Quote
Even Job is told to curse God and die, which he refuses to do.

Anyone who is Job-like was previously the opposite of Job-like.

  • Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin.

Daniel 4 pictures the shattering of a vessel of dishonor (the old Nebuchadnezzar) who worships the work of his hands, and the raising up of a new Nebuchadnezzar who worships the Living God.  In contrast, the book of Job starts out with a vessel of honor (Job) and shows the trying of his faith.  But no one starts off like Job.

Quote
Does he sound happy there?
Does this sound like a God who is pleased with what people are doing?

I don't think I implied that God is happy with disobedience did I?  I already believe God wants us to choose to obey Him using our wills.  What I do not believe is that any person who has been redeemed by God ever started out as anything but a  vessel of dishonor  refusing to obey God like everyone else.


bobf

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #303 on: November 29, 2008, 08:04:12 PM »
The interaction between God and Satan is practically pointless if God is just the puppet master dictating every single move.

Satan is not saying,  "Well God, of course Job worships you, you control his every move, DUUUH!"

But I don't know anyone who thinks like you've described.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #304 on: November 29, 2008, 08:08:27 PM »
The interaction between God and Satan is practically pointless if God is just the puppet master dictating every single move.

Satan is not saying,  "Well God, of course Job worships you, you control his every move, DUUUH!"

But I don't know anyone who thinks like you've described.



They describe it different.

bobf

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #305 on: November 29, 2008, 08:16:30 PM »
They describe it different.

Mabye they describe it differently because they don't actually see it as you have portrayed it.

God does not have to be controlling a person's every move or manipulating thoughts like a puppet-master.  I think of it more like a teacher and an initially unwilling student.  The teacher's lessons WILL eventually be learned, but nowhere in the process does the student ever stop making choices using his or her will.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #306 on: November 29, 2008, 08:24:05 PM »
They describe it different.

God does not have to be controlling a person's every move or manipulating thoughts like a puppet-master.  I think of it more like a teacher and an initially unwilling student.  The teacher's lessons WILL eventually be learned, but nowhere in the process does the student ever stop making choices using his or her will.


There are some here that will say in so many words and selective scriptures that you made a choice but your not in control of your own will,  what your will is, desires and does is also controlled by God.

They cannot have it both ways, if there is absolutely no liberty or freedom of our will, then my post applies to that point of view.

Saying something is not a puppet, but describing it like one doesn't change a thing.


bobf

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #307 on: November 29, 2008, 08:36:12 PM »
There are some here that will say in so many words and selective scriptures that you made a choice but your not in control of your own will,  what your will is, desires and does is also controlled by God.  They cannot have it both ways, if there is absolutely no liberty or freedom of our will, then my post applies to that point of view. Saying something is not a puppet, but describing it like one doesn't change a thing.

But a puppet does not even have a will so I think it's not a great comparison.  How much do you think you are in control of your will?  Is it 100%?


Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #308 on: November 29, 2008, 08:42:02 PM »
There are some here that will say in so many words and selective scriptures that you made a choice but your not in control of your own will,  what your will is, desires and does is also controlled by God.  They cannot have it both ways, if there is absolutely no liberty or freedom of our will, then my post applies to that point of view. Saying something is not a puppet, but describing it like one doesn't change a thing.

But a puppet does not even have a will so I think it's not a great comparison.  How much do you think you are in control of your will?  Is it 100%?



If God has not designed a measure of our control within HIS boundaries, then it is not our will anyway, it is Gods since he controls it and dictates what it does.

I see a balance in scripture between Gods control and our desires and actions.

Proverbs 16:9 does not say, God makes man devise a way in his heart and directs his feet.

It says  "A MAN devises a way in his heart BUT God directs his feet."


Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11312
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #309 on: November 29, 2008, 09:12:08 PM »
Quote
What I do not believe is that any person who has been redeemed by God ever started out as anything but a  vessel of dishonor  refusing to obey God like everyone else.

well, I don't know about that. 

4 The word of the LORD came to me:
    5 I chose you before I formed you in the womb;
    I set you apart before you were born.
    I appointed you a prophet to the nations.


--Jer 1


But, I again question why everyone considers being redeemed the end of the story?  Are we supposed to just sit back, put our feet up,  and enjoy being redeemed?


9 And I pray this: that your love  will keep on growing  in knowledge and every kind of discernment,  10 so that you can determine what really matters  and can be pure  and blameless  in  the day of Christ,  11 filled with the fruit  of righteousness  that [comes] through Jesus Christ, to the glory  and praise of God.

--Phil 1

Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3680
  • Gender: Female
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #310 on: November 29, 2008, 09:36:50 PM »
 
  What if it is like  being placed in a playpen [boxed and limited] the world]
 
  the baby thinks he can do whatever he wants inside the pen 
 
 
        with what God gave him to "play with"
 
        only for his safety and the child is not content
 
       but struggles to get out of the pen to his own hurt ?

  that is how I see will limitations  according to abilities /age 
  By Gods will , power strength wisdom ,understanding etc.

     Strong's G2307 - thelēma θέλημα
Transliteration
thelēma
 Pronunciation

the'-lā-mä (Key)
 
Part of Speech
neuter noun

 Root Word (Etymology)

from the prolonged form of G2309
 
TDNT Reference
3:52,318
 Vines
View Entry
 

Outline of Biblical Usage

 1) what one wishes or has determined shall be done

a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ

b) of what God wishes to be done by us

1) commands, precepts

2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 09:38:30 PM by rosered »
Jesus is the reward  !!

bobf

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #311 on: November 29, 2008, 10:39:25 PM »
If God has not designed a measure of our control within HIS boundaries, then it is not our will anyway, it is Gods since he controls it and dictates what it does.

Yes we have a measure of control - in scripture it is called it making a choice.  A choice is made using our heart & will.  But our heart & will is changable by God <--- This is the part where I get objections from people who believe in free will.  I'm not saying that God waves a God-wand and moment-by-moment zaps our wills into what He wants.  God transforms our wills by teaching us, either through His spoken Word or by us seeing God's law in effect whether by blessing or curse.

In addition to being able to change our wills, God can also alter the circumstances in which I make a choice and by doing so God can actually can determine what I will choose without taking over my will like a puppet or even doing a thing with my will at all.  So the puppet charactization does not really fit.  A puppet is controlled by direct manipulation and there is no mind or heart being shaped.  God interaction with our hearts & wills is more like a parent raising a child, except the parent is omniscient and omnipotent so He will not fail.

Quote
It says  "A MAN devises a way in his heart BUT God directs his feet."

Ok, I've never found that scripture to be compelling either way anyway with regards to this subject.  I find this one much more compelling:

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

But even in this case, I don't believe that the king ever stops making choices using his will, even when God is turning his heart wherever God wills.

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #312 on: November 29, 2008, 11:05:23 PM »
willieH: Hi Paul...  :icon_flower:

But a puppet does not even have a will so I think it's not a great comparison.  How much do you think you are in control of your will?  Is it 100%?

No "puppets" mentioned OR alluded to, in the WORD... so this term is completely irrelevant...  :dontknow:

Arms, legs & fingers are ...ARMS, LEGS & FINGERS, ...not "PUPPETS"... they are EXCELLENT and UNIQUE LIVING portions of oneself, set in the Body (by GOD) to render SERVICE... according to the WILL of the HEAD of one's body...

Quote
If God has not designed a measure of our control within HIS boundaries, then it is not our will anyway, it is Gods since he controls it and dictates what it does.

That is NOT what Rom 9:16-23 says Paul...

GOD decides when, where, and who we are... setting us in life according to HIS AGENDA, not according to ours... Our workings are set in motion to effect the workings of others around us which ALL conclude in HIM...

Furthermore... we are INSTRUCTED to do the WILL of GOD... and it is our DESTINY as well... so WHY not be AMIDST it even NOW, Paul?

Our "WILL" is an entity which is IN CAPTIVITY... and ENSLAVED to SIN (which is ADVERSE to the COMMAND of GOD)... which we are to CRUCIFY!!!  Put to DEATH!!!

Not fight to hold on to it...  :sigh:

JESUS and His Apostles, definitely recommended that we seek the WILL of GOD as our "WAY" of LIFE... not to seek our own ..."WAY"!

Quote
I see a balance in scripture between Gods control and our desires and actions.

The words "I" and "OUR" in this sentence, are "SELF-ish" words... SELF desiring a degree of CONTROL and seeking to be OUTSIDE the WILL and/or CONTROL of GOD... for the satisfaction of the agenda of SELF...  Which is contrary to the ETERNAL which is destined to be within the WILL of GOD ...ONLY...  :dontknow:

Fighting, scratching and clawing to remain in its DISOBEDIENCE... until GOD draws it from that DISOBEDIENCE into His GLORIOUS LIGHT...

Quote
Proverbs 16:9 does not say, God makes man devise a way in his heart and directs his feet.

It says  "A MAN devises a way in his heart BUT God directs his feet."

It says:   that a given "WAY" is devised by MAN... but the actual "WAY" he travels, is directed by GOD...  :dontknow:

THAT is what "it says"...  :cloud9:

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

bobf

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #313 on: November 29, 2008, 11:15:43 PM »

well, I don't know about that. 

4 The word of the LORD came to me:
    5 I chose you before I formed you in the womb;
    I set you apart before you were born.
    I appointed you a prophet to the nations.


--Jer 1

That passage says that God chose Jeremiah to be a prohpet before he was even born.  How does that prove that Jeremiah was always Job-like?

Paul uses the same fact about God choosing Isaac but not Esau before birth to prove that God's choice was not on the basis of their wills or their running.  So the same logic should hold for Jeremiah.  God did not choose him on the basis of his Job-like willing or running.  How can God choose on the basis of man's goodness when God says there is none good, none seeking God, no not one?

Psalm 107 tells me that the redeemed of God first condemned God's word and rebelled against Him before being redeemed:

  • Psalms 107:2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;

    Psalms 10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; 11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: 12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and [there was] none to help. 13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, [and] he saved them out of their distresses. 14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. 15 Oh that men would praise the LORD [for] his goodness, and [for] his wonderful works to the children of men!

Quote
But, I again question why everyone considers being redeemed the end of the story?  Are we supposed to just sit back, put our feet up,  and enjoy being redeemed?

It's not the end of the story.  I think people focus on the point of redemption in a discussion like this because that exemplifies the crux of the disagreement.  Redemption involves turning to God with all your heart & soul.  That is a choice.  So WHY do some choose to repent and some do not?  Is it (a) Their free wills or (b) God.  It's the crux of the issue.



« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 11:17:45 PM by bobf »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11312
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #314 on: November 29, 2008, 11:40:16 PM »
Quote
What if it is like  being placed in a playpen [boxed and limited] the world]
 
  the baby thinks he can do whatever he wants inside the pen 
 
 
        with what God gave him to "play with"
 
        only for his safety and the child is not content
 
       but struggles to get out of the pen to his own hurt ?

  that is how I see will limitations  according to abilities /age 
  By Gods will , power strength wisdom ,understanding etc.

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.


The Lord Jesus walked this earth as the resurrection.


29 For those He foreknew  He also predestined  to be conformed to the image of His Son,  so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 

--Romans 8





Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3680
  • Gender: Female
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #315 on: November 30, 2008, 12:41:59 AM »
Quote
What if it is like  being placed in a playpen [boxed and limited] the world]
 
  the baby thinks he can do whatever he wants inside the pen 
 
 
        with what God gave him to "play with"
 
        only for his safety and the child is not content
 
       but struggles to get out of the pen to his own hurt ?

  that is how I see will limitations  according to abilities /age 
  By Gods will , power strength wisdom ,understanding etc.

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.


The Lord Jesus walked this earth as the resurrection.


29 For those He foreknew  He also predestined  to be conformed to the image of His Son,  so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 

--Romans 8





that is how I see will limitations according to abilities /age 
  By Gods will , power strength wisdom ,understanding etc.
 
  Exactly Molly :icon_flower: ,
   accoring to ability ,  are not all started as babes in Christ ?
 
  even Paul was aware  of his limitations /will 

   He never confessed "perfection either "   but made know  that there were those who were  "perfect"/complete  mature /able  in the Will of God  /Mind of Christ

 

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

 
 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11312
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #316 on: November 30, 2008, 01:44:06 AM »
[but] "I follow after"

G1377
διώκω
diōkō
dee-o'-ko
A prolonged (and causative) form of a primary verb δίω diō (to flee; compare the base of G1169 and G1249); to pursue (literally or figuratively); by implication to persecute: - ensue, follow (after), given to, (suffer) persecute (-ion), press toward.




"reaching forth" [unto those things which are before]

epekteinomai

to stretch (oneself) forward upon:--reach forth



..walk before me and be thou perfect.

--Gen 17:1


« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 02:02:15 AM by Molly »

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #317 on: November 30, 2008, 02:32:08 AM »

No "puppets" mentioned OR alluded to, in the WORD... so this term is completely irrelevant...  :dontknow:


I am not using the term to describe what scripture says.  I am using the term to describe how people are using scripture without using the term and believe they are not.


Quote
Furthermore... we are INSTRUCTED to do the WILL of GOD... and it is our DESTINY as well... so WHY not be AMIDST it even NOW, Paul?

Adam and Eve were instructed not to eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


Quote
Not fight to hold on to it...  :sigh:

No need to worry about not fighting to hold on to it because if you fight to hold on to it, according to some, then God is the one who is orchestrating them to fight to hold on to it.

Quote
The words "I" and "OUR" in this sentence, are "SELF-ish" words... SELF desiring a degree of CONTROL and seeking to be OUTSIDE the WILL and/or CONTROL of GOD... for the satisfaction of the agenda of SELF...  Which is contrary to the ETERNAL which is destined to be within the WILL of GOD ...ONLY...  :dontknow:

Nope,  "I" used the word "I" and "our" because thats how "I" see scripture right now, nothing more than that and your assertion doesn't change anything.

When you post , you are posting what "You" believe scripture is saying and not using the word "I" changes nothing concerning "that".


Quote
Fighting, scratching and clawing to remain in its DISOBEDIENCE... until GOD draws it from that DISOBEDIENCE into His GLORIOUS LIGHT...

Yes, our will has the freedom to do that, but it will never be stronger than Gods boundaries that direct us, however, it is not God making us fight, scratch and claw, it is the liberty we have to do so.


Quote
Proverbs 16:9 does not say, God makes man devise a way in his heart and directs his feet.

It says  "A MAN devises a way in his heart BUT God directs his feet."
Quote
It says:   that a given "WAY" is devised by MAN... but the actual "WAY" he travels, is directed by GOD...  :dontknow:

THAT is what "it says"...  :cloud9:


"heart-of Human" (not heart of God) "He-is-devising" (not God is devising) "way-of him" (not the way of God) "And Yahweh" (God) "He is establishing" (God is establishing) "step of him"(Mans steps)

But is that all?   No.

God also contemplates mans many routes.

Pr 5:21 For the ways of a man are before the eyes of Yahweh, Who ponders all his routes.


Does not say ponders all the routes that God made him go on.  "ways of man"  All his (speaking of mans) routes.   Thats what IT says. 

What scripture is saying is that man has a certain liberty but it is within the confines of where God is going to take us.  People can say that means we have no free will,  it is only a matter of understanding what we are free of or from and what we are not.

If I am in prison one can say I am not free, yet, I would still have the freedom to make the best of where I am confined or allow the bondage to consume me.

But, are there times when God does directly control things, scripture says that too. The question scripture asks "who can resist his will" is telling us that our liberty will not prevail.


Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #318 on: November 30, 2008, 03:09:08 AM »
  God interaction with our hearts & wills is more like a parent raising a child, except the parent is omniscient and omnipotent so He will not fail.


I'm not disagreeing with that at all and have used that analogy myself.  We as good parents can let a child go his way and his route, knowing what they will learn by it.  This does not take away the childs liberty to have gone that way of his own will.



Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #319 on: November 30, 2008, 08:17:16 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul...  :happygrin:

No "puppets" mentioned OR alluded to, in the WORD... so this term is completely irrelevant...  :dontknow:

I am not using the term to describe what scripture says.  I am using the term to describe how people are using scripture without using the term and believe they are not.

The term is still IRRELEVANT... as I noted, my arms and legs are alive, and are NOT "PUPPETS" even though they ARE part of My body, and fully cooperate with the WILL of my "head"... :yes:

CHRIST is the HEAD of His "BODY" which members WE ...ARE... (exemplified in the creation of the human body or any other created body - animal, insect, fish, whatever)... and, just as the members of created "bodies" respond to the WILL of the HEAD, and are HELPLESS and can do NOTHING without it, ...so are the members of HIS BODY, responding to the decisions made by CHRIST... not by their supposed and UNBIBLICAL, "free will"...

Quote from: willieH
Furthermore... we are INSTRUCTED to do the WILL of GOD... and it is our DESTINY as well... so WHY not be AMIDST it even NOW, Paul?

Adam and Eve were instructed not to eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Okay... then you acknowledge that they were INSTRUCTED, yet failed to follow that INSTRUCTION, and thereby justify you own lack?  The WILL of GOD is to be done exclusively in the HEAVENLIES and IN EARTH as well... (Matt 6:10)

Adam & Eve could not DISOBEY the INSTRUCTION unless the HEAD gave them the power to do so...  :dontknow:

(John 15:5)  Without the HEAD, the "body" can do NOTHING...

Quote from: willieH
Not fight to hold on to it...  :sigh:

No need to worry about not fighting to hold on to it because if you fight to hold on to it, according to some, then God is the one who is orchestrating them to fight to hold on to it.


Nice appropriate observation Paul... I stand corrected... Men fight by means of MISchoosing, which is resultant of a WILL in bondage to itself, which is also ordained by GOD to be so... [He concludes ALL in UNBELIEF (Rom 11:32 )... whatsoever is NOT of FAITH is SIN (Rom 14:23)...]  :dontknow:

Men devise (choose), but the result of their "choices" are according to the DECLARATION of GOD...  :declare:

Quote from: willieH
The words "I" and "OUR" in this sentence, are "SELF-ish" words... SELF desiring a degree of CONTROL and seeking to be OUTSIDE the WILL and/or CONTROL of GOD... for the satisfaction of the agenda of SELF...  Which is contrary to the ETERNAL which is destined to be within the WILL of GOD ...ONLY...  :dontknow:

Nope,  "I" used the word "I" and "our" because thats how "I" see scripture right now, nothing more than that and your assertion doesn't change anything.

I do not speak to convince you of anything... rather, I pose opposition to what you "see" in Scripture now... thereby giving others a different "vision" of it...

When you post , you are posting what "You" believe scripture is saying and not using the word "I" changes nothing concerning "that".

As I just stated, it is not my agenda to change what you believe... you are more than welcome to your observations...  If and when words I post are in opposition of what you believe... you are welcome to take it or, ...leave it, ...no sweat!!  :sweat:  :Shoot:  :laughing7:

For me Paul... it is not about YOU and it is not about ME, it is about GOD... I do not care in the slightest who turns out to be correct...  For we are ALL VEILED in some aspects... and THAT dear brother, is HIS decision!  ...I can live with that, can you?  :scratchhead: ...hope so bro!  :cloud9:

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

bobf

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #320 on: November 30, 2008, 04:58:25 PM »
Yes, our will has the freedom to do that, but it will never be stronger than Gods boundaries that direct us, however, it is not God making us fight, scratch and claw, it is the liberty we have to do so.

What about in the case of pharoah?  Didn't God cause pharoah to resist him?  Isn't that what God hardening pharoah's heart means?  As I've said before it is not an either / or proposition: i.e. it is not EITHER we choose to resist OR God chooses that we will resist Him.  In the case of pharoah it was both.  God hardened pharoah's heart AND pharoah hardened his own heart.  It's not hard to descibe a possible scenario whereby God hardened pharoah's heart without in any way removing pharoah's ability to choose.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #321 on: November 30, 2008, 08:35:18 PM »

The term is still IRRELEVANT... as I noted, my arms and legs are alive, and are NOT "PUPPETS" even though they ARE part of My body, and fully cooperate with the WILL of my "head"... :yes:

Yes indeed it is irrevalent, because we are not puppets since puppets are not aware nor do they have any liberty directly apart from their puppet master.

However, does a clay pot have any liberty apart from the potter?  Well, if that was the "only" verse in the bible concerning our will and direction, perhaps.

If we have no liberty within our will to make choices based on what "we" prefer whether or not God knows the final score before hand, then, irrevalent or not, that IS what we are.

Quote
... not by their supposed and UNBIBLICAL, "free will"...

Free will is not entirely unscriptural or there would be no need for a verse such as this.

Ps 54:6 I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O LORD; for [it is] good.

It is the understanding of it that often is.   Are we so free that we actually can choose an eternal hell?  No, I believe not. 

Are we so bound as not to ever be able to offer something to the Lord voluntarily?   No I believe not.

Is there a time when we are completely confined?  Perhaps

Ro 8:7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.

Is there a time when we can choose light or darkness and that choice is a matter of our will within what God sets before us?  Perhaps

 Jn 8:11 Now she said,  "No one, Lord!"  Now Jesus said,  "Neither am I condemning you. Go! From now on by no means any longer be sinning."

The prostitute was given light, perhaps before her encounter with Jesus she was bound and unable to do anything but be a prostitute.  Could her encounter with Jesus bring that light and an amount of liberty, opening and broadening her will and her freedom? 



Quote
Okay... then you acknowledge that they were INSTRUCTED, yet failed to follow that INSTRUCTION, and thereby justify you own lack?  The WILL of GOD is to be done exclusively in the HEAVENLIES and IN EARTH as well... (Matt 6:10)

Adam & Eve could not DISOBEY the INSTRUCTION unless the HEAD gave them the power to do so...  :dontknow:

I point out that what you write is not as simple as you think you are explaining it.  Did God's will for Adam and Eve include the instruction to do his will as you write in the quote below?

Quote from: WillieH
Furthermore... we are INSTRUCTED to do the WILL of GOD... and it is our DESTINY as well... so WHY not be AMIDST it even NOW, Paul?

Did Gods instruction to do the will of God include the instruction to Sin?




Quote
I do not speak to convince you of anything... rather, I pose opposition to what you "see" in Scripture now... thereby giving others a different "vision" of it...

And therefor making my point,  "You" pose by the inclusion of the word "I".



Quote
As I just stated, it is not my agenda to change what you believe... you are more than welcome to your observations...  If and when words I post are in opposition of what you believe... you are welcome to take it or, ...leave it, ...no sweat!!  :sweat:  :Shoot:  :laughing7:

I have never posted any words suggesting that you must believe as I do, but if this instruction is important to you, then I know that you will follow your own advise.


Quote
...I can live with that, can you?  :scratchhead: ...hope so bro!  :cloud9:

This is a discussion forum where we post our thoughts, since it is likely that you have not read every single post that I write, you will have no doubt missed posts where I accept the correction when how I see things appears to be in error.

I already live with that.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11312
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #322 on: November 30, 2008, 10:03:22 PM »
Quote
Are we so bound as not to ever be able to offer something to the Lord voluntarily?   No I believe not.

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

This is our reasonable service to God.  Here I am.  I have come to do your will, O God.


This means I have an alternative. -- To not do God's will or to do my own will, or the will of a dictator, or another will.   We have all heard about brainwashing.  Whose will is the brainwashed doing?

Therefore, if we are going to truly present ourselves a living sacrifice, it has to be of our own free will, or it doesn't work.  Are the suicide bombers presenting themselves of their own free will?  Not to our God.  Our God does not require such of us.  Our God has come to give us life and give it abundantly.  So we know that if we would have such an impulse, it comes from elsewhere.

Only the truly free will can give a reasonable service to God.

Quote
Jn 8:11 Now she said,  "No one, Lord!"  Now Jesus said,  "Neither am I condemning you. Go! From now on by no means any longer be sinning."

The prostitute was given light, perhaps before her encounter with Jesus she was bound and unable to do anything but be a prostitute.  Could her encounter with Jesus bring that light and an amount of liberty, opening and broadening her will and her freedom? 


What does light do?  It illuminates all the options.  It illuminates all truth.  Can we ever make a free choice unless we know all truth?  We are easily swayed, called sheep by our Creator, willing to follow any shepherd who sounds good.  The only thing that would prevent us following a clever false shepherd off a cliff would be a full awareness of the truth.  Therefore, it is the truth which sets us free from brainwashing, ignorance, propaganda, all kinds of darkness to which the human soul is vulnerable.  For this end, because truth is absolute,  he gives us the Spirit of truth, allowing us to truly have free will.

Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

--John 8

bobf

  • Guest
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #323 on: December 01, 2008, 04:48:21 PM »
Knowing the truth sets us free from being in bondage to sin.  In that sense, I agree it gives us a will that is free so that we know to choose the good and refuse the evil.

  • John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

  • Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.


Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1667
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #324 on: December 01, 2008, 05:07:04 PM »
Just because God knows how things will turn out does not necessarily mean he caused them to happen that way. Jesus knew what Judas was going to do.  Does that mean he caused Judas to do what he did?

Tony's reply: God does not just know the end from the beginning. God tells or declares the end from the beginning. That's a huge difference. That which He declares He personally brings to pass. He makes sure it comes to pass. It will come to pass, not because He saw into the future but because He declares what the future will be.

Isa 46:9-11  Remember the first things from the eon, for I am the El, and there is no further Elohim, and the limit is as Me."  (10)  Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'"  (11)  Calling from the sunrise, a bird of prey, from a land far off, the man of My counsel. Indeed, I speak! Indeed, I will bring it about! I formed. Indeed, I will do it."

  • Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

And this was because He declared it must occur before it ever did occur, not because He looked into the future and saw people using some phantom called "free-will".


Quote
You might ask yourself, since you say we have no free will, and since I have even heard people say that Jesus himself had no free will (which contradicts scripture imo), why is God messing with us over a 6000 year history?  Why not just make it right the first time--perfect little stepford Christians, doing his bidding?  Why would he set up this drama, some doing his will, some opposing him?  It hardly alleviates eternal boredom since he knows the outcome.

Dear Molly, I hope your Thanksgiving holiday was a blessing to your and yours.

The question you pose is a good one. I'm sure I don't have all the answers though.

Many people through the 6000 year history have vehemently withstood His will and some have done His will. Yet none have withstood His intention (Romans 9:19). In withstanding His will they unwittingly fulfill that which He intends must occur.
It is like the farmer tells his wife he is going away for a week and please do NOT plow the field because he buried several thousand dollars in it and can't remember where. He gets back from being away and the field is all plowed. This is what he really wanted done but if he told her to plow the field while gone she never would have done so. In resisting his will she fulfilled his intention.
This has been going on for 6000 years with God and mankind.

We have wills but the will of mankind is not free to love God. God must intervene. Fish have wills but are not free to chase down a rhinoceros and eat it.

Why not have God make it all right the first time rather than dragging us through the mud of human depravity? Because we all have lessons to learn. Even though our wills are not free (we do make choices, both good and bad ones) we still learn lessons we would not have otherwise learned.

Take a Lookie at this:
Rev 20:8 "And he will be coming out to deceive all the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to be mobilizing them for battle, their number being as the sand of the sea."

Why would God do this? He had Satan in jail for 1000 years. He could destroy him if He wanted to but uses him to fulfill His will. Are some of the nations free to not be deceived? No. ALL the nations will be deceived by Satan for God tells from the beginning the hereafter. It is already written in Revelation. This must occur.
Since God let that which He created loose to deceive the nations, He is responsible.

If a man creates a machine for the sole purpose of wrecking a neighborhood, lets it loose and it does what he intends, is he responsible?

What about this:
Rev 17:17 "for God imparts to their hearts to form His opinion, and to form one opinion, and to give their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God shall be accomplished."

Are they free to have a different opinion other than the one Almighty God imparts to them?

Love
Tony
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 05:12:47 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.