Author Topic: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?  (Read 45992 times)

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bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #275 on: November 28, 2008, 05:18:36 PM »
I don't know that God forced Jonah inside the whale.  It's more that this is where we naturally are without God--inside the belly of the beast.  Jonah certainly perceived it a banishment from God's presence,  as God who was saving him from this--and his heart was changed.

And God made that natural law of reaping what we sow. So the scriptures view that process as God doing something "Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah" that sounds like force to me.

Yes, Jonah's and Neb's banishment and later mercy were heart-changing (or will-changing) events.  So I can not view my will as being free from God's shaping and that shaping affects my choices.

  • Jeremiah 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee...

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #276 on: November 28, 2008, 05:41:34 PM »
Yes, shaping in the sense that he allows us to see the error of our ways through a type of cause and effect.

But Christ releases us from the 'karma' of the physical world--where we can now reap what we did not sow...

..that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

--John 4:36
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 05:44:07 PM by Molly »

bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #277 on: November 28, 2008, 06:13:23 PM »
Yes, shaping in the sense that he allows us to see the error of our ways through a type of cause and effect.

I would says "causes" not "allows" since the outcome is certain.  Nebuchadnezzar was certain to learn that God rules in the kingdom of men and that fact did not depend on how willing he was.

Quote
But Christ releases us from the 'karma' of the physical world--where we can now reap what we did not sow...

..that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

--John 4:36


Yes, in that sense we can reap what we did not sow.  But this law is still there if we sow to the flesh...

  • Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.


Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #278 on: November 28, 2008, 09:02:16 PM »
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

--Rom 4


[the father of many] "nations"

G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.


...so shall thy seed be.

Amazing, huh?  Who ever teaches that Abraham is the father of the Gentiles?


39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

--John 8

Missing the BIG PICTURE...

Speaking of the SON which was to be OLD Sarah's and  OLD Abraham's:

Gen 18:18-19

18 Seeing that ABRAHAM shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and ALL the NATIONS of the EARTH shall be BLESSED IN HIM... 
19  For I know him, that he will COMMAND his household after him, and they shall keep the WAY [JESUS is the WAY] of YHVH to do justice and judgment; that YHVH may bring upon Abraham that which He hath spoken of him.
  :dontknow:

FAITH is SIRED by GOD in CHRIST... not by ABRAHAM... 

Abraham, simply was the FIRST to have that FAITH sired in him, and it continued down his generations... (as is noted in Gen 18:19) as YHVH was taught and worshipped by his descendants...  for it is the WORD of YHVH that is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of FAITH...

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #279 on: November 28, 2008, 09:25:24 PM »
Quote
The Bible says David's heart smote him after he numbered Israel. He thought he did it of his own will. The Bible then says that Satan made him number Israel. The Bible also says God made him number Israel. But how did God make him sin? He used an intermediary (Satan) to get the job done. But why would God make David sin? To get at those 70,000 men He killed because David numbered Israel.

Bottom line: nobody can make you do anything.  We are not satan.  Satan can influence us, or try to, but he is not us.  David was held completely responsible for what he alone did--of his own free will.  God held him responsible.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Consider this...

If one is in submission to GOD [in CHRIST], then one is SUBMITTING the FLESH he/she lives in to GOD, instead of SUBMITTING to IT and it's desires... Putting to DEATH (while yet living), the desires of the FLESH...

RESISTANCE is NOT done by us, rather is done BY CHRIST, in us...

SUBMISSION is the DRAWING of GOD to CHRIST, that one be empowered to RESIST...  Thereby, GOD is doing the work, CHRIST is doing the Work, and WE have CEASED from working... even to the point of noting the process, as beneficiaries...

In THAT, we RESIST the desires of the FLESH, and they "flee" from us in the presence and MANIFESTATION of OBEDIENCE to YHVH thru CHRIST...

"satan" is the ADVERSITY which our flesh presents to us, in the NATURE within which we are created,  ...which NATURALLY, ...DISOBEYS the COMMAND of GOD... (James 1:14)

The SHEPHERD saves (rescues) the SHEEP, ...the SHEEP have no part in SAVING (rescuing) themselves... other than being the object of that SALVATION...

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #280 on: November 28, 2008, 10:17:16 PM »
Quote
SUBMISSION is the DRAWING of GOD to CHRIST, that one be empowered to RESIST...  Thereby, GOD is doing the work, CHRIST is doing the Work, and WE have CEASED from working... even to the point of noting the process, as beneficiaries...

I would agree with that.  I think I would put it that submission allows the drawing of God to Christ or maybe of Christ to God.  When we exalt Christ, we submit ourselves to him--if I am lifted up (exalted), I will draw all men to me.  But, I see it as submitting our own will, or, as you put it, standing aside and cease from working our own will.

Quote
Abraham, simply was the FIRST to have that FAITH sired in him, and it continued down his generations... (as is noted in Gen 18:19) as YHVH was taught and worshipped by his descendants...  for it is the WORD of YHVH that is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of FAITH...

I actually believe it (faith) started with [the undeceived] Adam, passed down to [the righteous] Abel, and then on to [the appointed replacement] Seth, and so on.  Abraham was the one that God made the covenant with, that's all, promising to make him the father of many Gentiles.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 10:23:32 PM by Molly »

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #281 on: November 28, 2008, 11:07:36 PM »
willieH: Hi Molly...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH
SUBMISSION is the DRAWING of GOD to CHRIST, that one be empowered to RESIST...  Thereby, GOD is doing the work, CHRIST is doing the Work, and WE have CEASED from working... even to the point of noting the process, as beneficiaries...

I would agree with that.  I think I would put it that submission allows the drawing of God to Christ or maybe of Christ to God.  When we exalt Christ, we submit ourselves to him--if I am lifted up (exalted), I will draw all men to me.  But, I see it as submitting our own will, or, as you put it, standing aside and cease from working our own will.

Wow!  We agree on something!   :cloud9:  ...I'm glad.  :boogie:

If SUBMISSION is a part of the SALVATION process (which of course, it IS)... and the SALVATION process is ENTIRELY GOD's Work... then SUBMISSION is His Work in us as well... It makes sense... because there remain those which are UNSUBMITTED...

SUBMISSION, by the way, is (1) according to GOD and (2) IS NOT an EVENT, but a PROCESS... which Paul (Rom 7:25) noted as well as did John (1 John 1:8)... that SIN (unsubmitted areas) remain to a degree, even though the DRAWING/SUBMISSION process IS engaged...  :yes:

The reason that GOD does not want us to JUDGE, is because He is working at one point (spiritual development) of the drawing/submission PROCESS in ONE (you for example  :girlheart:) and a completely different point of that PROCESS in ANOTHER (me for example!  :boyheart:)...

Quote from: willieH
Abraham, simply was the FIRST to have that FAITH sired in him, and it continued down his generations... (as is noted in Gen 18:19) as YHVH was taught and worshipped by his descendants...  for it is the WORD of YHVH that is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of FAITH...

I actually believe it (faith) started with [the undeceived] Adam, passed down to [the righteous] Abel, and then on to [the appointed replacement] Seth, and so on.  Abraham was the one that God made the covenant with, that's all, promising to make him the father of many Gentiles.

You are welcome to view this in your way... however, Like LAW... even though it was not yet GIVEN... was still in force... for SIN is TRANSGRESSION of the LAW, which produces DEATH... and DEATH entered via ADAM, even though the LAW had not yet  been given...

FAITH stands as a principle in the same way... even though COVENENTAL FAITH (as you describe it), had not yet been ESTABLISHED... it existed as a non-stated entity which was present (as you note in ADAM & ABEL), even though not noted...

ABRAHAM's act of FAITH (which SAVES and is AUTHORED by GOD) was the initial and EMBEDDED PICTURE of GOD sacrificing His SON, ...done willingly and according to, ...the spoken WILL of YHVH...

Prior to that, FAITH was not a Biblically noted issue... 

But from ABRAHAM--on, ...it ESTABLISHED ETERNITY (saving, OBEDIENT FAITH authored by GOD) in this realm... being the conduit or bridge BACK to it (eternity)...


peacE...
willieH    :handshake:
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 11:14:30 PM by willieH »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #282 on: November 28, 2008, 11:08:37 PM »
Thanks BobF for your nice thoughts.
The problem with ultra-sovereigntists is that, among many other things, they think that God has to make us run from Him. He does not have to twist our arms to run from Him. That is part of the human disposition, the human will as you so well pointed out. But when the time is needed, God does indeed make us to that which we probably would not do. David numbering Israel is just one case in point. The Bible says David's heart smote him after he numbered Israel. He thought he did it of his own will.

What makes you think David didn't do it of his own will?

God did not punish David. If David was responsible for counting Israel God would have punished David. God went after 70,000. That was His goal. He used David to get to that goal. David would never have numbered Israel had not God made him do it.

Quote
The Bible then says that Satan made him number Israel. The Bible also says God made him number Israel. But how did God make him sin? He used an intermediary (Satan) to get the job done. But why would God make David sin? To get at those 70,000 men He killed because David numbered Israel.

Bobf: That is still not incompatible with David choosing to number Israel using his will.  Even though God moved David to number Israel by moving Satan to move David, still David choose to do so.  BTW I don't think God using Satan as an intermediary is what "gets God off the hook" with regards to James 1:13. Rather, I believe that in all cases when we sin we still choose in our heart to sin no matter who or what "moved" us.

Pro 21:1 "Like rillets of water is the king's heart in the hand of Yahweh; Wherever He inclines, He turns it aside."

Dear Bob, I think it might be good if you could point me to a verse that David chose to number Israel before God made him number Israel. James 1:13 must be understood properly. Jesus was led by the spirit into the wilderness to be tried. God did not need to try David to see what he would do.
I think the problem is that God moves us to do certain things but our minds wrongly attribute what we've done to our almighty free-will or whatever rather than giving the glory to God. But like I've said before, God does not have to make us go to the bathroom. He does not need to twist our arm. We go or we deal with a mess. The choice to go is stronger than not going. Yet the choice is not free from causality, which causality God ingrained within us.

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God meant what Joseph's brothers thought and carried out for good. Joe's brothers meant what they thought and did for evil. They surely would not have done what they did to Joe if they thought he would be raised to the place of saviour of the world.

Likewise God had Satan enter into Judas' heart to give up Christ. Judas may have been too weak willed to give him up otherwise. He also had the Roman government and Jewish leaders give up and sacrifice His Son. They meant it for evil but God meant it for Good. I think the key word here is "meant." It has to do with the thoughts of their heart.

Yet in all this God does not sin. God is working all together for GOOD!

Isn't God Good? Yes! He is!

Tony

Yes, God is good because as you say, he is meaning it for & bringing to pass good.




[/quote]
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #283 on: November 28, 2008, 11:51:09 PM »
God did not punish David. If David was responsible for counting Israel God would have punished David. God went after 70,000. That was His goal. He used David to get to that goal. David would never have numbered Israel had not God made him do it.

I agree God caused David to number Israel.  All I'm saying is that while God caused him to do so, David was still making a choice using his will.  It's not an either or proposition.  It's not EITHER God moved David OR Satan moved David OR David made a choice using his will.  All three are true.  If David did not choose to number Israel then he did not sin.  But he did sin.

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Pro 21:1 "Like rillets of water is the king's heart in the hand of Yahweh; Wherever He inclines, He turns it aside."

I agree with that passage.  When God moves the king's heart where ever God wills, the king is still making choices using his will, as was the case with pharoah when God hardened his heart.

Quote
Dear Bob, I think it might be good if you could point me to a verse that David chose to number Israel before God made him number Israel.

I did not say David chose to number Israel BEFORE God moved him to.  I'm saying that WHEN God moved David to number Israel, David was also choosing to do so, otherwise David did not sin.  My wife can "move" me to do this or that, but when she does I'm still making a choice using my will.

Quote
I think the problem is that God moves us to do certain things but our minds wrongly attribute what we've done to our almighty free-will or whatever rather than giving the glory to God. But like I've said before, God does not have to make us go to the bathroom. He does not need to twist our arm. We go or we deal with a mess. The choice to go is stronger than not going. Yet the choice is not free from causality, which causality God ingrained within us.

Yes, the choice to use the rest room is not free from causaulty, nevertheless it is a choice using our wills.  My whole point was that even when God or Satan or external cicrumstances cause us to choose A over B, our wills are still in operation and it is still a choice.  So I believe we make choices using our wills, but not "free" choices using our "free" wills.




« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 12:02:05 AM by bobf »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #284 on: November 29, 2008, 01:34:41 AM »
Bob, I am kind of curious what you think of Judas. Some things that he did was said that those things must come to pass. Did they come to pass because he was caused to do them that the Scriptures must come to pass or did he do those things because he chose to do them so that the Scriptures would come to pass?

Did Esau slave for Jacob because he made the wrong choices of will or did he make the wrong choices because God said Esau would slave for Jacob before they were born and before they did anything good or bad that would cause such a thing to occur (Romans 9)?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #285 on: November 29, 2008, 02:32:47 AM »
Just because God knows how things will turn out does not necessarily mean he caused them to happen that way. 

Jesus knew what Judas was going to do.  Does that mean he caused Judas to do what he did?


"What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

--Zechariah 13:6

« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 02:37:09 AM by Molly »

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #286 on: November 29, 2008, 02:43:55 AM »
Just because God knows how things will turn out does not necessarily mean he caused them to happen that way. 

Jesus knew what Judas was going to do.  Does that mean he caused Judas to do what he did?
I've known a whole lot of times what people were going to do before they did them, but there was never any sense of my heavenly Father having them on puppet strings.  It was just a heads up to not freak, to pray against the devil at work in their lives, to take a preemptive move in a different direction when personal security was about to be violated, etc.  I've had Father tell me on a few occasions that so and so was about to disobey Him in this or that, and therefore He was wanting me to either distance myself, or to fast and pray for them to yeild to the Holy Spirit within them rather than to their flesh, etc.  An absolute sovereignty message is a very, very difficult sell to anyone that's regularly lead by the Holy Spirit.  Sovereignty in the sense that God ultimately gets His way about how every life and every nation plays out at the distant consummation of the ages, yes, but not this moment by moment tight grip on Father's part about anything whatsoever.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #287 on: November 29, 2008, 02:50:16 AM »
Just because God knows how things will turn out does not necessarily mean he caused them to happen that way. 

Jesus knew what Judas was going to do.  Does that mean he caused Judas to do what he did?
I've known a whole lot of times what people were going to do before they did them, but there was never any sense of my heavenly Father having them on puppet strings.  It was just a heads up to not freak, to pray against the devil at work in their lives, to take a preemptive move in a different direction when personal security was about to be violated, etc.  I've had Father tell me on a few occasions that so and so was about to disobey Him in this or that, and therefore He was wanting me to either distance myself, or to fast and pray for them to yeild to the Holy Spirit within them rather than to their flesh, etc.  An absolute sovereignty message is a very, very difficult sell to anyone that's regularly lead by the Holy Spirit.  Sovereignty in the sense that God ultimately gets His way about how every life and every nation plays out at the distant consummation of the ages, yes, but not this moment by moment tight grip on Father's part about anything whatsoever.
Yes.  Same thing has happened to me.  Sometimes I will be told--so and so is going to this, and within 24 hours it happens.  I also find it very comforting to know that someone is paying attention to what is going on.  lol.  But, what is this if not the spirit of prophesy?  Was Judas already a ball rolling downhill or did someone push him?


6 [Judas] didn't say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief.  He was in charge of the money-bag and would steal part of what was put in it.

John 12



« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 02:53:23 AM by Molly »

bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #288 on: November 29, 2008, 03:22:25 AM »
Bob, I am kind of curious what you think of Judas. Some things that he did was said that those things must come to pass. Did they come to pass because he was caused to do them that the Scriptures must come to pass or did he do those things because he chose to do them so that the Scriptures would come to pass?

Both

Quote
Did Esau slave for Jacob because he made the wrong choices of will or did he make the wrong choices because God said Esau would slave for Jacob before they were born and before they did anything good or bad that would cause such a thing to occur (Romans 9)?

Both.

If we could look inside the mind of Judas or Esau then we would find that they were acting according to their wills making various choices for various reasons.   I think if we could interview Judas or Esau after each choice they made they would not be like "heck I don't know why I did that, I guess God made me do it..."  No, they would be able to give some kind of reasons and their thought process for each decision.

If we look inside the mind of God we see God was arranging these things according to the counsel of His will.  God picked Jacob over Esau before either were born according to God's righteous choice which was not dependant on their (future) wills or (future) running.  And God planned for Christ to be slain before the foundation of the world to save mankind, and Judas did whatsoever God's hand determined to be done.

Again, two or more wills can be in operation in the causing of one event.  When you ask "which is the cause" it seems to me you are excluding the possibility that there is more than one cause.

For example, how many wills or intents were involved in Paul's thorn in the flesh?
  • God's -- to keep Paul humbe
  • Satan's -- to buffet Paul
  • Satan's messengers' -- I understand these to be people who hindered Paul's ministry

Of course God's will is always supreme.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 03:50:39 AM by bobf »

bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #289 on: November 29, 2008, 03:44:51 AM »
Just because God knows how things will turn out does not necessarily mean he caused them to happen that way. Jesus knew what Judas was going to do.  Does that mean he caused Judas to do what he did?

I agree that God's foreknowlege does not prove that God caused something to happen.

Quote
"What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

--Zechariah 13:6

So we know that Jesus was wounded by people in the house of His friends.  But we also know this:

  • Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

  • Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.




Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #290 on: November 29, 2008, 05:39:43 AM »
Quote
Again, two or more wills can be in operation in the causing of one event.  When you ask "which is the cause" it seems to me you are excluding the possibility that there is more than one cause.



12 For our battle is not against flesh  and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities,  against the world powers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil  in the heavens.  13 This is why you must take up the full armor  of God, so that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and having prepared everything, to take your stand.

--Eph 6

bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #291 on: November 29, 2008, 06:19:21 AM »
12 For our battle is not against flesh  and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities,  against the world powers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil  in the heavens.  13 This is why you must take up the full armor  of God, so that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and having prepared everything, to take your stand.

--Eph 6

Molly, that passage is in complete agreement with what I said.  That passage shows what we must do.  That accounts for one will.  Here is where God's will fits in.

  • Phillipians 2:13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him and the power to do what pleases him.

  • Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

  • Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live

  • Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

  • 1 Corintians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #292 on: November 29, 2008, 07:11:26 AM »
Quote
Molly, that passage is in complete agreement with what I said.  That passage shows what we must do.  That accounts for one will.

Yes, I know.

As far as God is concerned, sometimes he withdraws himself completely from man.  Cain is banished from God's presence and we never really hear from him again (although we get a postcard that he is building a city and materially he seems to be prospering).

Because Cain selfishly refuses (of his own will) to take God's instruction on how to live properly, he never again has direct access to God.  This is 'the way of Cain.'


Jude 1:11
Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.


bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #293 on: November 29, 2008, 07:39:32 AM »
As far as God is concerned, sometimes he withdraws himself completely from man.  Cain is banished from God's presence and we never really hear from him again (although we get a postcard that he is building a city and materially he seems to be prospering).

Because Cain selfishly refuses (of his own will) to take God's instruction on how to live properly, he never again has direct access to God.  This is 'the way of Cain.'


Jude 1:11
Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

Don't you think everyone has done that (selfishly refused God's instruction)?  Isn't why we need a Redeemer?


« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 07:41:17 AM by bobf »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #294 on: November 29, 2008, 03:25:25 PM »
Just because God knows how things will turn out does not necessarily mean he caused them to happen that way. Jesus knew what Judas was going to do.  Does that mean he caused Judas to do what he did?

Tony's reply: God does not just know the end from the beginning. God tells or declares the end from the beginning. That's a huge difference. That which He declares He personally brings to pass. He makes sure it comes to pass. It will come to pass, not because He saw into the future but because He declares what the future will be.

Isa 46:9-11  Remember the first things from the eon, for I am the El, and there is no further Elohim, and the limit is as Me."  (10)  Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'"  (11)  Calling from the sunrise, a bird of prey, from a land far off, the man of My counsel. Indeed, I speak! Indeed, I will bring it about! I formed. Indeed, I will do it."

  • Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

And this was because He declared it must occur before it ever did occur, not because He looked into the future and saw people using some phantom called "free-will".


[/quote]
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #295 on: November 29, 2008, 03:31:22 PM »
Quote from: willieH
Wow!  We agree on something!

Yup, Ill witness that! :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #296 on: November 29, 2008, 04:38:28 PM »
Just because God knows how things will turn out does not necessarily mean he caused them to happen that way. Jesus knew what Judas was going to do.  Does that mean he caused Judas to do what he did?

Tony's reply: God does not just know the end from the beginning. God tells or declares the end from the beginning. That's a huge difference. That which He declares He personally brings to pass. He makes sure it comes to pass. It will come to pass, not because He saw into the future but because He declares what the future will be.

Isa 46:9-11  Remember the first things from the eon, for I am the El, and there is no further Elohim, and the limit is as Me."  (10)  Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'"  (11)  Calling from the sunrise, a bird of prey, from a land far off, the man of My counsel. Indeed, I speak! Indeed, I will bring it about! I formed. Indeed, I will do it."

  • Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

And this was because He declared it must occur before it ever did occur, not because He looked into the future and saw people using some phantom called "free-will".


[/quote]You might ask yourself, since you say we have no free will, and since I have even heard people say that Jesus himself had no free will (which contradicts scripture imo), why is God messing with us over a 6000 year history?  Why not just make it right the first time--perfect little stepford Christians, doing his bidding?  Why would he set up this drama, some doing his will, some opposing him?  It hardly alleviates eternal boredom since he knows the outcome.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 04:40:05 PM by Molly »

bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #297 on: November 29, 2008, 05:34:49 PM »
There is a big difference between not having a free will and not having any will at all (robot, puppet, stepford child).  We have a will that we use to make choices, it's just that our will is not free from God changing it.

  • Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.


bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #298 on: November 29, 2008, 05:45:46 PM »
As to whether God has a free will, I guess it would depend on how you define free will.  Can God sin?  Isn't a righteous will limited by virtue of it's righteousness?  Since God is love, doesn't that also mean that God is not hate and can not hate?  I would say that God does choose not to sin BECAUSE He is righteous.  That is an aspect of His nature.  He can not sin.  What exactly will keep people from sinning in God's kingdom?  Something must change since we all sin now.  Will that change make us stepford children of God?


bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #299 on: November 29, 2008, 05:56:24 PM »
Why would he set up this drama, some doing his will, some opposing him?

I can't say that I completely understand the answer, but I can see that the answer to your question is contained in verses 22 & 23.  It is giving an explanation as to why God would make vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy: What if God wanted to show his wrath & power on the vessels of wrath and to show His mercy on the vessels of mercy.  That is why God made both kinds of vessels.  My understanding is that God wants to show us the fruit of wickedness which shatters the bad vessels and also show us how mercy can take what's left after that shattering by raising up Sons of God from the ruin.

  • Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.