Author Topic: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?  (Read 44365 times)

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Zeek

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #250 on: November 25, 2008, 07:17:52 PM »
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:  


the order is interesting

 
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.  


 
Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.



Pro 18:21 Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.  


 
Job 22:28 Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee: and the light shall shine upon thy ways.  

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #251 on: November 25, 2008, 07:25:09 PM »
Molly, you didn't answer the question below. Maybe you accidentally missed it . . .

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26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11



But Molly, if she did believe, why did she? Who opened her eyes, ears, heart? Who gave her faith to believe? Can she thank herself?

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


--Rom 1


O.K. Molly, if that is how the game is played don't expect me to be answering your posts anymore. Too bad you can't answer the question but I understand why.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #252 on: November 25, 2008, 07:38:49 PM »
Molly, you didn't answer the question below. Maybe you accidentally missed it . . .

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26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11



But Molly, if she did believe, why did she? Who opened her eyes, ears, heart? Who gave her faith to believe? Can she thank herself?

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


--Rom 1


O.K. Molly, if that is how the game is played don't expect me to be answering your posts anymore. Too bad you can't answer the question but I understand why.

It's a two way street, Tony.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

--Rev 3:20


I don't know why some believe and some don't.  That kid on youtube who has been the subject of threads here is a Messianic Jew.  He grew up in a household of unbelievers, in his own words.  So how did he not only come to believe in God but believe in Jesus?  He read the Old Testament.  Any Jew reading his own Bible, the Old Testament, would have to conclude that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.  You can't miss it.  Jesus fulfills over 100 prophesies of the Jewish Messiah.  So even a nonbeliever could give that much witness.  But they won't!

Where did Jesus say, go out and kill your enemies? Mow them down, torture and imprison them, grind them into dust?   Did he say that?  So why do so many Christians think they should conquer the world with the barrel of a gun?  I don't know, but they do!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 08:05:53 PM by Molly »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #253 on: November 25, 2008, 09:38:01 PM »

It's a two way street, Tony.

I know, that is what I want it to be. Not answering my questions makes it a one way street.

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Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.--Rev 3:20

Do you know what the above verse is talking about? In Revelation Christ will be visiting the ecclesia in Laodicea. He is standing outside of the room where the Jewish ones are gathered. If any man (in that room) hear My voice and open the door I will come into (that room) toward him and sup with him and he with Me."
But how do they hear His voice if they are not His sheep? Only His sheep hear His voice (Jn.10:27). But how do they become His sheep? Not by their will be by God's will. No one comes to the Son unless the Father drag him.


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I don't know why some believe and some don't. 

Do you now after I have told you?

Quote
Where did Jesus say, go out and kill your enemies? Mow them down, torture and imprison them, grind them into dust?   Did he say that?  So why do so many Christians think they should conquer the world with the barrel of a gun?  I don't know, but they do!

I didn't know Christians do that. Nations do but I didn't know Christians do.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #254 on: November 25, 2008, 11:33:14 PM »

It's a two way street, Tony.

I know, that is what I want it to be. Not answering my questions makes it a one way street.

Quote
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.--Rev 3:20

Do you know what the above verse is talking about? In Revelation Christ will be visiting the ecclesia in Laodicea. He is standing outside of the room where the Jewish ones are gathered. If any man (in that room) hear My voice and open the door I will come into (that room) toward him and sup with him and he with Me."
But how do they hear His voice if they are not His sheep? Only His sheep hear His voice (Jn.10:27). But how do they become His sheep? Not by their will be by God's will. No one comes to the Son unless the Father drag him.


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I don't know why some believe and some don't. 

Do you now after I have told you?

Quote
Where did Jesus say, go out and kill your enemies? Mow them down, torture and imprison them, grind them into dust?   Did he say that?  So why do so many Christians think they should conquer the world with the barrel of a gun?  I don't know, but they do!

I didn't know Christians do that. Nations do but I didn't know Christians do.


Christian nations are made up of Christians, so, yes, Christians do that.

The Father draws everyone--so that they are without excuse as the scripture says.

Jesus stands at the door, the gate, the entrance to the most Holy place, the entrance to the Upper Room, the entrance to the most set apart place, our hearts, and waits patiently for us to repent and turn to him--and open the door.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock...


"door"

G2374
θύρα
thura
thoo'-rah
Apparently a primary word (compare "door"); a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively): - door, gate.



Psalm 24:7
Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 11:48:09 PM by Molly »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #255 on: November 26, 2008, 01:39:22 AM »
The Father draws everyone--so that they are without excuse as the scripture says.

That is not how the Bible says it.
Besides, The Father does not draw everyone to Christ in this life. So, in fact, they do have an excuse because the responsibility lies with the Father to draw people to Christ.

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Jesus stands at the door, the gate, the entrance to the most Holy place, the entrance to the Upper Room, the entrance to the most set apart place, our hearts, and waits patiently for us to repent and turn to him--and open the door.

Your using that Revelation verse that way is the reason so many are lost. That is not how one gets saved. It is part of the false gospel being promulgated today by the paganist christian churches. Read Romans 4 and then 4:23-25. That, my dear is what to believe in.
Many have asked Christ to come into their hearts quoting that verse in Revelation and have remained unsaved their whole life. It is not for Gentiles today but for the Laodicean Jewish believers in the future day of the Lord.

Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #256 on: November 26, 2008, 05:28:36 AM »
 18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

--Rom 4


[the father of many] "nations"

G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.


...so shall thy seed be.

Amazing, huh?  Who ever teaches that Abraham is the father of the Gentiles?


39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

--John 8






martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #257 on: November 26, 2008, 06:01:28 AM »
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

--Rom 4
Most people miss the part that it's when he was 100 years old that he had absolutely no doubts, but grew in strength giving glory to God.  Because you don't see that kind of faith in him from the time that he's 75 until he's 99ish.  So, they read through Romans and Genesis and think that Paul must have been referring to some kind of rabbinical material, or that he was just a preachin'.  But he'd seen God's Footprints in that blood and he knew from then on that God couldn't lie to him 'cause He'd cut the covenant.  The book of Hebrews gives the implication to anyone that's studied blood covenants very deeply that God the Father did the same thing in walking the figure 8 in the Body of Jesus on the Cross swearing every promise of the New Covenant to everyone that would ever come to believe: the temporal, the eonian, and the eternal promises of it.  I have a feeling that all of us combined wouldn't be able to produce the totality of knowledge of 1% of what really happened on an old rugged hill 2000 years ago.  He swore our healing, our prosperity, our peace, our contentment, all of our nurturing, greater works that we'd do than Jesus did because He was going to the Father, and the raising of all of us from the dead, no matter how hidden by death we ever became.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #258 on: November 26, 2008, 01:57:35 PM »
Most people miss the part that it's when he was 100 years old that he had absolutely no doubts, but grew in strength giving glory to God.  Because you don't see that kind of faith in him from the time that he's 75 until he's 99ish. 

Righto bingo.

Just as Abraham believed God when God said "A father of many nations have I appointed you - facing which, he believes it of the God Who is vivifying the dead and calling what is not as if it were -" (Rom 4:17).

Abraham trusted that what God said He would fulfill. Now Paul did not bring up Abraham just for a cute story. He brought it up as an example. Now Paul in a sense says: I want you to believe God concerning this:

Rom 4:22-25  Wherefore, also, it is reckoned to him for righteousness."  (23)  Now it was not written because of him only, that it is reckoned to him,  (24)  but because of us also, to whom it is about to be reckoned, who are believing on Him Who rouses Jesus our Lord from among the dead."  (25)  Who was given up because of our offenses, and was roused because of our justifying."

Just as it was impossible for Abraham to bring forth the seed, he still believe that what God said was true.
And just as it is impossible for us to justify ourselves, we believe that what God said is true that He roused Jesus from the dead and believe God that He was given up because of our offenses and was roused because of our justifying.

Note that we are not justified because He was roused from the dead. He was roused from the dead because of our justifying.

So we believe that what God has said is true. God is believable just as He was with Abraham.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

ScarletWren

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #259 on: November 27, 2008, 08:18:29 AM »
Fascinating topic! 

I believe that we have a will, but that we can only carry out what God has intended, for us to do.  It surely seems like all of my choices and thoughts are free, but they have all come about as a result of every event and person that God has put into my life up to that time. 

I think about God's warnings to Israel that if they did not act according to His laws that He would send them into captivity.  Well, did He just decide one day that this was the day and all of a sudden put the thought into the King of Assyria that it was a good day to invade Israel?  I sincerely doubt it.  He had been setting up the king's heart for years, or longer (preordained it?) and just so with his army.  All was ripe for just the time that God brought His judgment and Assyria's army against Israel--nothing could have stopped it and it had to be orchestrated with great precision.

We are God's workmanship, that pretty much says it all for me.  We aren't finished yet.  It took me awhile to see that, but once I latch onto something, it's pretty much entrenched there.  Why, it would take an act of God to shake it out!!

I've read some awesome insights in this thread.  I love deep thoughts on the underlying meat of the Bible stories such as Joseph and how he represented Christ.  I also love Boaz as the kinsman redeemer.  Their actions had to be predetermined to fit so well into God's prophetic picture of the New Testament within the Old Testament

(Oh, whoever said he didn't understand the way women think, you made me laugh so hard.  My bf just said this morning that women's thinking was skewed. I stared at him a long time and asked him if he didn't want to find another word to use.  He laughed and came up with: women have an alternate way of thinking.  That was just to placate me.  He really meant the skewed thing.  But, as I tell him all the time--he's cute and I'm shallow--so I tolerate it.)

This all is what I have come to believe through studying and reading different presentations on the topic of free will and the scriptures used to defend either stance.  I feel the evidence is strongest for God directing our steps.  If someone doesn't see it in the same way, well, I have no ability to bring you to my way of thinking.  I hope we can agree to disagree respectfully.  Probably somewhere we will agree on another topic and I will disagree with those that I agree with on this topic.  That seems typically to be what I find in forums, lol.

I am hoping that we are allowed a bit of freedom to present our thoughts on here.  I've been on forums where you have to back up everything with scripture chapter and verse.  And if the differences get a bit intense, the mods lock the thread.  That doesn't solve anything, in my opinion, but then, I'm Just a woman, hah!!

May Grace follow us all this Holiday and peace be upon you and your loved ones.

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #260 on: November 27, 2008, 09:25:40 AM »
willieH: Hi SW...  :welcome: to Tentmaker! 

Glad you are here, and also, GLAD you GET IT! :bgdance:

Fascinating topic! 

I believe that we have a will, but that we can only carry out what God has intended, for us to do.  It surely seems like all of my choices and thoughts are free, but they have all come about as a result of every event and person that God has put into my life up to that time.

Right on ScarletW... we "choose" what He has DECLARED we shall choose... which is HIM working ALL THINGS according the COUNSEL of His OWN WILL... (not ours) 

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We are God's workmanship, that pretty much says it all for me.  We aren't finished yet.  It took me awhile to see that, but once I latch onto something, it's pretty much entrenched there.  Why, it would take an act of God to shake it out!!

 :happyclap: AMEN!   :cloud9:

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This all is what I have come to believe through studying and reading different presentations on the topic of free will and the scriptures used to defend either stance.  I feel the evidence is strongest for God directing our steps.  If someone doesn't see it in the same way, well, I have no ability to bring you to my way of thinking.  I hope we can agree to disagree respectfully.  Probably somewhere we will agree on another topic and I will disagree with those that I agree with on this topic.  That seems typically to be what I find in forums, lol.

Well said... it is GOD's WORK to unveil the TRUTHS in His WORD... we are to remain yielded instruments that He might GRACE us by using us in that process!  :thumbsup:

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I am hoping that we are allowed a bit of freedom to present our thoughts on here.  I've been on forums where you have to back up everything with scripture chapter and verse.  And if the differences get a bit intense, the mods lock the thread.  That doesn't solve anything, in my opinion, but then, I'm Just a woman, hah!!

Our mod staff is pretty fair in this area... they just seek us to "bicker" respectfully!  :laughing7:

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May Grace follow us all this Holiday and peace be upon you and your loved ones.

Wonderful wish...  :HeartThrob: right back atcha!  And again... WELCOME!  :friendstu:

peacE...
willieH    :icon_king:

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #261 on: November 27, 2008, 09:33:34 AM »
16 At that time those who feared the LORD spoke to one another. The LORD took notice and listened. So a book of remembrance  was written before Him for those who feared Yahweh and had high regard for His name. 17 "They will be Mine," says the LORD of Hosts,  "a special possession on the day I am preparing. I will have compassion on them as a man has compassion on his son who serves him.  18 So you will again see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.

--Malachi 3

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #262 on: November 27, 2008, 09:49:23 AM »
1The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.

 2Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.

--Deut 18




4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

--Psa 27




1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;




Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #263 on: November 27, 2008, 10:07:04 AM »
Psalm 135:4
For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.


Romans 9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.



Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



Matthew 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.



Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;


Malachi 3:17
And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.




Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #264 on: November 27, 2008, 10:18:47 AM »
Matthew 13:44
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.



The kinsman redeemer:

47 "If a foreigner or temporary resident [living] among you prospers, but your brother [living] near him becomes destitute and sells himself to the foreigner living among you, or to a member of the foreigner's clan, 48 he has the right of redemption after he has been sold. One of his brothers may redeem him. 49 His uncle or cousin may redeem him, or any of his close relatives from his clan may redeem him. If he prospers, he may redeem himself.

--Leviticus 25



He buys the whole world because of the hidden treasure:



1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.





« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 10:25:35 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #265 on: November 27, 2008, 10:53:11 AM »
[ye are] "a peculiar people"(1Peter 2:9)

G4047
περιποίησις
peripoiēsis
per-ee-poy'-ay-sis
From G4046; acquisition (the act or the thing); by extension preservation: - obtain (-ing), peculiar, purchased, possession, saving.








[chosen] [for his]  "peculiar treasure" (Psa 135:4)

H5459
סגלּה
segûllâh
seg-ool-law'
Feminine passive participle of an unused root meaning to shut up; wealth (as closely shut up): - jewel, peculiar (treasure), proper good, special.




16 The LORD their God will save them on that day
    as the flock of His people;
    for they are like jewels in a crown,
    sparkling over His land.


--Zech 9



« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 10:56:02 AM by Molly »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #266 on: November 27, 2008, 03:19:03 PM »
Fascinating topic! 

I(Oh, whoever said he didn't understand the way women think, you made me laugh so hard.  My bf just said this morning that women's thinking was skewed. I stared at him a long time and asked him if he didn't want to find another word to use.  He laughed and came up with: women have an alternate way of thinking.  That was just to placate me.  He really meant the skewed thing.  But, as I tell him all the time--he's cute and I'm shallow--so I tolerate it.)


Hi ScarletWren! LOL, I am the one who wrote about the incomprehensible way women think.
It's like the Christian man said to his wife: "How could you be so beautiful and so stupid?" She replied "God made me beautiful so you'd be attracted to me. He made me stupid so I'd be attracted to you."

I really enjoyed what you wrote SW. I wonder why that is? LOL

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! You are all very special. God created you for a very special purpose.

Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

ScarletWren

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #267 on: November 27, 2008, 06:13:43 PM »
Hi Willie,

I enjoy your posts and the way you think, write.  Thanks for the suupport.

Hi Tony,

Funny joke, shows she wasn't so "stupid" after all.  Hey, life would be boring if we all thought the same way, eh?  I'm sure, however, when the time comes that we all see the truth about everything, God will provide us enough to occupy us that we are never bored. 

And admit it, if women thought the way men do, would you really be attracted to us???   Some of the things men do and say, well, I shudder to think I could be that way.   But viva la differences, that's what I say (well most of the time).

Wishing you all a quick recovery from overeating and time to spend with family and/or loved ones/friends.

Abundant grace!




bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #268 on: November 28, 2008, 01:25:15 PM »
But Molly, if she did believe, why did she? Who opened her eyes, ears, heart? Who gave her faith to believe? Can she thank herself?

When God says that none are good, none are seeking God, no one understands -- it a comment on the will of man. 100% go the wrong way until God does something about it.  Why?  Because none are good.

  • Psalms 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

  • Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

God is the one who who corrects this situation by causing the one who does not understand or see God to understand and see God.

  • John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

  • John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

There is no contradiction between people making choices using their wills and the Sovereignity (hyper or otherwise) of God.  A caused choice is still a choice.  When Pharoah hardened his own heart, God was also hardening pharoah's heart.  They are one and the same event.

  • Exodus 9:33 And Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh, and spread abroad his hands unto the LORD: and the thunders and hail ceased, and the rain was not poured upon the earth. 34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. 35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses. 1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 01:28:56 PM by bobf »

Offline firstborn888

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #269 on: November 28, 2008, 01:54:22 PM »
if women thought the way men do, would you really be attracted to us??? 

No.

Though I have some female friends who kind of think like men and I'll have to say - they make great 'buddies'  :thumbsup:  :laughing7:

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #270 on: November 28, 2008, 04:32:47 PM »
Thanks BobF for your nice thoughts.
The problem with ultra-sovereigntists is that, among many other things, they think that God has to make us run from Him. He does not have to twist our arms to run from Him. That is part of the human disposition, the human will as you so well pointed out. But when the time is needed, God does indeed make us to that which we probably would not do. David numbering Israel is just one case in point. The Bible says David's heart smote him after he numbered Israel. He thought he did it of his own will. The Bible then says that Satan made him number Israel. The Bible also says God made him number Israel. But how did God make him sin? He used an intermediary (Satan) to get the job done. But why would God make David sin? To get at those 70,000 men He killed because David numbered Israel.

God meant what Joseph's brothers thought and carried out for good. Joe's brothers meant what they thought and did for evil. They surely would not have done what they did to Joe if they thought he would be raised to the place of saviour of the world.

Likewise God had Satan enter into Judas' heart to give up Christ. Judas may have been too weak willed to give him up otherwise. He also had the Roman government and Jewish leaders give up and sacrifice His Son. They meant it for evil but God meant it for Good. I think the key word here is "meant." It has to do with the thoughts of their heart.

Yet in all this God does not sin. God is working all together for GOOD!

Isn't God Good? Yes! He is!

Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #271 on: November 28, 2008, 04:37:36 PM »
Quote
The Bible says David's heart smote him after he numbered Israel. He thought he did it of his own will. The Bible then says that Satan made him number Israel. The Bible also says God made him number Israel. But how did God make him sin? He used an intermediary (Satan) to get the job done. But why would God make David sin? To get at those 70,000 men He killed because David numbered Israel.

Bottom line: nobody can make you do anything.  We are not satan.  Satan can influence us, or try to, but he is not us.  David was held completely responsible for what he alone did--of his own free will.  God held him responsible.



James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #272 on: November 28, 2008, 04:50:24 PM »
Thanks BobF for your nice thoughts.
The problem with ultra-sovereigntists is that, among many other things, they think that God has to make us run from Him. He does not have to twist our arms to run from Him. That is part of the human disposition, the human will as you so well pointed out. But when the time is needed, God does indeed make us to that which we probably would not do. David numbering Israel is just one case in point. The Bible says David's heart smote him after he numbered Israel. He thought he did it of his own will.

What makes you think David didn't do it of his own will?

Quote
The Bible then says that Satan made him number Israel. The Bible also says God made him number Israel. But how did God make him sin? He used an intermediary (Satan) to get the job done. But why would God make David sin? To get at those 70,000 men He killed because David numbered Israel.

That is still not incompatible with David choosing to number Israel using his will.  Even though God moved David to number Israel by moving Satan to move David, still David choose to do so.  BTW I don't think God using Satan as an intermediary is what "gets God off the hook" with regards to James 1:13. Rather, I believe that in all cases when we sin we still choose in our heart to sin no matter who or what "moved" us.

Quote
God meant what Joseph's brothers thought and carried out for good. Joe's brothers meant what they thought and did for evil. They surely would not have done what they did to Joe if they thought he would be raised to the place of saviour of the world.

Likewise God had Satan enter into Judas' heart to give up Christ. Judas may have been too weak willed to give him up otherwise. He also had the Roman government and Jewish leaders give up and sacrifice His Son. They meant it for evil but God meant it for Good. I think the key word here is "meant." It has to do with the thoughts of their heart.

Yet in all this God does not sin. God is working all together for GOOD!

Isn't God Good? Yes! He is!

Tony

Yes, God is good because as you say, he is meaning it for & bringing to pass good.




bobf

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #273 on: November 28, 2008, 04:57:13 PM »
Bottom line: nobody can make you do anything.  We are not satan.  Satan can influence us, or try to, but he is not us.  David was held completely responsible for what he alone did--of his own free will.  God held him responsible.

God does not "make" (in the sense of "force") anyone to choose A or B since that is not a choice.  If you are forced to do A then your will is not even involved.  But God does force things on people that are not choices.  God forced Jonah into in the inside of a fish.  God forced Nebuchadnezzar to lose his kingdom and have the mind of a beast. Those were not choices.

So God does not force choices (oxymoron) but God can and does cause a person to choose A or to choose B using their wills.  We are still making a choice and God holds us accountable.


Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #274 on: November 28, 2008, 05:07:47 PM »
I don't know that God forced Jonah inside the whale.  It's more that this is where we naturally are without God--inside the belly of the beast.  Jonah certainly perceived it a banishment from God's presence,  as God who was saving him from this--and his heart was changed.



4 But I said: I have been banished
    from Your sight,
    yet I will look once more
    toward Your holy temple.


--Jonah 2