Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother N...

So Willie, you're saying then that the argument as to whether Cain had a choice to kill or not to kill is really irrelevant because Scriptures states he did and for us to consider him not killing his brother is to become an adversary to Truth??

If this is what you're saying (and correct me if it's not) then  . . . well . . this really opens a can of worms . . .how can we argue all of our "what if" theories then??

Here it is as I see it...

There is no such thing as "what IF"...  What HAPPENS... HAPPENS!   

"What IF's"... are imaginary proposals of men which percieve and via imagination CONCIEVE, a different outcome than what actually HAPPENED...

NAME me ONE... "What IF"... that has REVERSED an ACTUAL event (and please dont name "voting recounts"  ...for the RECOUNT was just a part of the process of WHO actually got elected!)... 

"What IF"...  JESUS didn't go to the cross... Would we be left to PERMANENT DEATH?  Well... this IMAGINARY proposal is NOT the case...

In its IMAGINARY state, it is irrelevant, and immaterial... HE DID go to the Cross... and the "WHAT IF" is relegated to a proposed imagination only....

JESUS is the WORD... (logos)... the WORD is ETERNAL and NEVER CHANGES... (Heb 13:8)

The WORD of GOD, is an ETERNAL entity... which means that as it APPEARS in TIME, is its appearance EXACTLY the same, in ETERNITY (prior to time)...

The WORD says:  "CAIN slew ABEL"... this is not only a "historical report"  which was made in time (noted by MOSES)... but an ETERNAL PROCLAMATION which CANNOT, DID NOT... and NEVER WILL, CHANGE...

If the "REPORT" preceeded (in eternity) the EVENT (in time) ... then how can the EVENT POSSIBLY occur differently (in time) then it IS... REPORTED (in eternity)?

"what IF" ...theories"... did NOT HAPPEN... what DID HAPPEN (Cain killing Abel) is what HAPPENED, ...why?  BECAUSE the WORD/SCRIPTURE (which cannot be broken), SAYS it HAPPENED... 

Sorry if my answer here, rubs the "what IF -- theory" the wrong way...  ...but that is how I see it... 

There are no such things as "what IF's"...  WHAT IF, I didn't write this answer bro... then you would NOT positively KNOW what I was thinking... but The "what IF"... DID NOT HAPPEN...

I DID write back to you... and you KNOW what I am thinking... NO "what IF"... can even be considered... because you HAVE the KNOWLEDGE of my thinking... 

peacE...
willieH 

[rosered]

 
  but when we regret/ repent  and feel guilty  for what we done ,  that is something I do believe  Judas experienced


 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 metanoia  Greek for G3341

 1) a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done
 
  putting on the mind of Christ is one thing
  but the fruit meet for repentance  come from experience
 
   fruit is an end result from  a seed  of planting , growing  and maturing  ?

[Tony N]

Man devises, he plans, he dreams. This all has to do with the mind, the heart. In the Old Testament the heart is the source of thoughts. It is the mind.

Humans are not robots. They are not a computer program.

"The thoughts of the heart (mind) belong to man but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord."

devise 
verb, -vised, -vis-ing, noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to contrive, plan, or elaborate; invent from existing principles or ideas: to devise a method. 

Gen 50:20 And you, you devised against me evil, yet the Elohim devises it for me for good, that it may work out as at this day, to preserve alive many people.

Joseph's brothers had no idea that in opposing Joseph and trying to make sure his dreams came to nothing, they were unwittingly fulfilling God's hidden intention.

They meant it for evil or devised it for evil. Devising has to do with their mind. This has to do with their will. They willed what they were trying to accomplish concerning Joseph for evil.

They dumped Joseph in an empty well and as part of their evil devising they slew one of Jacob's animals, took its blood and put that blood on Joseph's distinctive tunic. They then lied to Jacob. Jacob was a very wealthy man. Probably on the level of Bill Gates today. Had Jacob known that Joseph was sold as a slave into Egypt he would have marched down there and gotten his son back. But this was not in God's plan. God had to keep Jacob in the dark by having his son's lie to him.

Now comes the judging beginning in Genesis 42. Joseph continues to hide his identity and say they are spies. Later he hides money in their bags and hides his silver cup in their bag. They believe all this evil is now coming on them due to what they did to their younger brother Joseph. How true that was!

To make the story short, the final thing which rescues them from guilt is knowing that Joseph is not angry with them and that even though they devised or meant it for evil, God devised or meant if for good.

God's hand was controlling Joseph's brothers because He had to work it out to get Joseph into Egypt in order to be the Saviour of the world.

And just as God did that with Joseph's brothers, so did He with Christ and Israel. Israel meant it for evil. Crucify Him! Crucify Him! They cried. Yet God meant it for Good. God's hand was controlling the people because He had to work it out for Christ to be the Saviour of the world.

Sure, God could have told Joseph to learn all about leading people then tell him to go down to Egypt and get in good with Pharaoh and save the world from a coming famine. But the way He did it was a much wiser way for it taught Joseph, his brothers and Jacob things about themselves and things about God that they could never have learned any other way.


Rom 11:33-36  O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!"  (34)  For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?  (35)  or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid Him?  (36)  seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!

[Nathan]

Let's have a little fun with this . . .

Joseph's brothers had no idea that in opposing Joseph and trying to make sure his dreams came to nothing, they were unwittingly fulfilling God's hidden intention.

They meant it for evil or devised it for evil. Devising has to do with their mind. This has to do with their will. They willed what they were trying to accomplish concerning Joseph for evil.

Pictures and patterns.  Types and shadows . . .
Joseph, a type of Christ . .yes?  Also type of Spirit . . as Christ's message is always spirit.  If Joseph is a type of the Spirit, then the brothers are connected, but not unifed.  They are related to, but not related "of" Joseph's nature.  In other words, they are a form of the natural reasoning . . .Joseph is spirit, they are soul.  They were jealous of the attention, of the authority their brother had . .so they "devised" a plan (natural reasoning manifested)

They find a hole in the earth (earth= flesh), even better, a well without water.  Exactly what the carnal mind does.  It takes spiritual things it can't understand and tries to bury it in the many usless and empty wells of it's ability to drink in spiritual (water=spirit) things.

They devise a plan to use the blood of Josephs flock . . .much like the religious spilling the blood of the prophets, to confirm their lies are true.  How often people use the blood of the Lamb experience to bolster their own man-made doctrines.  And all the while, God is using these people to fulfill his original plan and they're not even aware of it. 

God had chosen, hand-picked even . .. this humble kid who was the apple of his Father's eye.  His Father treated him as though he were a king.  He could do no wrong in his Father's eyes.  This is assuredly a picture of Christ, but it is also a type of us.  God has proclaimed us to be kings and priests, but our carnal minds would rather keep us in an unworthy state where no spiritual thing can be accomplished.  But a famine is coming to Egypt . .to our Egypts . .to the ungodly friends and neighbors in our lives . . .and his will won't be denied.

The brothers lived the rest of those days without Joseph in guilt and shame . . . hiding the Truth from the Father, bound to strongly by fear to even consider telling him the truth. Knowledge does that . .it changes the tone of our faith from life to death.  We see the worst in things and as a result, we cower and hide as we give in to our own mind's knowledge and put what little comfort we have left in emphasizing the discipline of living for God.

Famine was inevidible.  But there is a silver cup waiting for them.  This cup of grace came to a mind where grace was not fathomable.  There had to be a manifestation of brokenness to bring out the favor and forgiveness.  A law can only be overcome, after it's first been broken.  A mind can only be resurrected . . .after it's experienced death.

But resurrect it does, and what was once a life of remorse and guilt has been miraculously transformed with absolutely no manuvering or manipulation on our part.  It was all done by and through the grace of truth.  May the mind find it's inheritance and reward, regardless . . .no . . .because of the Egypts we bring upon ourselves.

[Molly]

Don't forget Joseph was worthy.  He didn't sleep with Potiphar's wife.

Even so, he was [sold into slavery and] thrown in prison for something he didn't do--the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


8 But he refused. "With me in charge," he told her, "my master does not concern himself with anything in the house; everything he owns he has entrusted to my care. 9 No one is greater in this house than I am. My master has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?" 10 And though she spoke to Joseph day after day, he refused to go to bed with her or even be with her.

--Gen 39

[Molly]

Famine was inevidible.  But there is a silver cup waiting for them.  This cup of grace came to a mind where grace was not fathomable.  There had to be a manifestation of brokenness to bring out the favor and forgiveness.  A law can only be overcome, after it's first been broken.  A mind can only be resurrected . . .after it's experienced death.

Joseph's silver cup went to Benjamin--the younger brother, the full brother, the son of the right hand.

If Joseph is a type of Christ, Benjamin is a type of us, the younger brothers of Christ.


Genesis 45:14
And he fell upon his brother Benjamin's neck, and wept; and Benjamin wept upon his neck.




"Benjamin"

H1144
בּנימין
binyâmîyn
bin-yaw-mene'
From H1121 and H3225; son of (the) right hand; Binjamin, youngest son of Jacob; also the tribe descended from him, and its territory: - Benjamin.

[reFORMer]

As Joseph, a type of Jesus, was first to go down to Egypt (Greek: darkness, Hebrew: dual crown) so the last of the body of Christ to come into this realm where Jesus sets up His kingdom is BenJamin (son of the right hand renamed from what in her death the mother named Son of my sorrow or tribulation.)  The father really wants to keep BenJamin very close.  This only other son from his beloved bride Rachel represents the sons of God in the latter days, the body of overcomers for whom there is a five-fold feast set in the presence of his brethren enemies, etc.  "Are you able to drink of my cup?" was what Jesus asked the disciples who wanted to sit next to Him in His kingdom.

[Tony N]

Those are all nice thoughts, friends. Thanks for what you wrote.

What I am getting at though is not so much the types of Joseph to Christ etc. but am getting at the intent of the hearts of Joseph's brothers.

They meant it for evil. They devised it for evil. All the while they were devising it for evil God was working in their lives without them knowing it and was devising it for Good.

They thought it was all their fault for what happened to Joseph when Joseph was putting them through the wringer. But the truth finally came out: "And you, you devised against me evil, yet the Elohim devises it for me for good, that it may work out as at this day, to preserve alive many people" (Gen 50:20).

What I am trying to get us to see is that this is not an isolated case.
How many people have devised evil against you in your life?
How many times have you received evil in this life due to what others did to you?
Yet looking back, can you not say that they devised it against you for evil but God devised it for good?

A supreme example is Judas. It could be that he meant giving up the Christ for evil. But look at all the forces working against Judas to make him do what he did. Satan had to enter into Judas and then Jesus commanded him: "What you are doing, do more quickly."(John 13:27).

Could Judas have gone contrary to the scripture? . . .
 "Men! Brethren! Fulfilled must be the scripture in which the holy spirit said before through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who becomes the guide of those apprehending Jesus, (Act 1:16).

And yet when Judas is judged, (possibly like Joseph's brothers were judged?) will Christ finally say to Judas, You meant it for evil but God meant it for good that all mankind (including you, Judas,) would be saved.

Wow! Now Judas's act of betrayal is justified! Judas is justified!  No more condemnation for Judas.

What I'm getting at is that "the thoughts of the heart belong to man, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord." Man proposes, God disposes."

[Molly]

They meant it for evil. They devised it for evil. All the while they were devising it for evil God was working in their lives without them knowing it and was devising it for Good.

Not Benjamin.

And, when the brothers met up with Joseph in Egypt, it was Benjamin he wanted to see.

The brothers are saved because of Joseph's love for his full brother,  Benjamin, the son of the favored wife.


14 Joseph said to them, "It is just as I told you: You are spies! 15 And this is how you will be tested: As surely as Pharaoh lives, you will not leave this place unless your youngest brother comes here. 16 Send one of your number to get your brother; the rest of you will be kept in prison, so that your words may be tested to see if you are telling the truth. If you are not, then as surely as Pharaoh lives, you are spies!" 17 And he put them all in custody for three days.

--Gen 42


3 But Judah said to him, "The man warned us solemnly, 'You will not see my face again unless your brother is with you.'

--Gen 43

[Molly]

28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac,  are children of promise.  29 But just as then the child born according to the flesh persecuted the one born according to the Spirit,  so also now.  30 But what does the Scripture say?

    Throw out the slave and her son, for the son of the slave will never inherit with the son of the free woman.

    31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. 

--Gal 4

[Tony N]

They meant it for evil. They devised it for evil. All the while they were devising it for evil God was working in their lives without them knowing it and was devising it for Good.

Not Benjamin.

And, when the brothers met up with Joseph in Egypt, it was Benjamin he wanted to see.

The brothers are saved because of Joseph's love for his full brother,  Benjamin, the son of the favored wife.

Molly, in the relative sense you are right. But Benjamin had to go down to Egypt because God told Abraham years earlier that his seed would be held captive 400 years.

The brothers were saved because God raised Joseph to be the saviour of the world then. They would have been saved whether Joseph loved Benjamin or not because God already told Abraham that his offspring would sojourn in a foreign land 400 years and then come out a nation (see Genesis 15:13). So much for free will. Will, yes, free, no. They had to sojourn in Egypt because God said so. Therefore Joseph and all his brothers and father etc. had to go down to Egypt that the scripture be fulfilled.

The Bible does not say that Benjamin was not against Joseph for his dreams. It just says that Joseph related his dream to his brothers (I would imagine Benjamin was amongst them) and they continued in their hatred of him. (Gen.37:4,5).

It could be that Benjamin was too young at this time when Joseph was 17 and told his dreams and told his father of the evil mutterings of his brothers. But the Bible doesn't say so.

It could be that the sons of Bilhah and the sons of Zilpah, wives of his father, were the ones hating him since Benjamin was a son of Rachel as was Joseph. The point of the story is not if Benjamin was or was not in the group who hated Joseph.

The point is this: The brothers that hated Joseph planned and carried out their evil against Joseph yet God is the one that devised it all for good. They, in their hatred were carrying out God's hidden intention.

We plan, we dream, we do things, yet we fulfill God's intention.

The whole point of the story is that God meant it for good. The brothers were unwitting doers in the scheme of things. The brothers could not do otherwise.

[Molly]

The point is this: The brothers that hated Joseph planned and carried out their evil against Joseph yet God is the one that devised it all for good. They, in their hatred were carrying out God's hidden intention.

yes, but not all are in bondage.



25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia  and corresponds to the present Jerusalem,  for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

    Rejoice, O barren woman

    who does not give birth.

    Break forth and shout,

    you who are not in labor,

    for the children of the desolate are many,

    more numerous than those

    of the woman who has a husband.

--Gal 4

[Tony N]

Molly, that was after 400 years after they went into Egypt then Moses led them out of Egypt and the giving of the law.
Can we keep with the topic?

[Molly]

Molly, that was after 400 years after they went into Egypt then Moses led them out of Egypt and the giving of the law.
Can we keep with the topic?

It's the same story, told over and over again, from beginning to end.




17 After Abram returned from defeating Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley) . 18 Then Melchizedek, king of Salem,  brought out bread and wine; he was a priest to God Most High.  19 He blessed him and said:
    Abram is blessed by God Most High,
    Creator  of heaven and earth,
    20 and give praise to  God Most High
    who has handed over your enemies to you.

--Gen 14



Psalm 110:4
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.



Luke 22:69
Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.




"Melchizedek" or Melchisedec (both: mĕlkĭz`ədĕk) [Heb.,=king of righteousness], 




[king of] "Salem"

H8004
שׁלם
shâlêm
shaw-lame'
The same as H8003; peaceful; Shalem, an early name of Jerusalem: - Salem.

[Tony N]

And your point as this relates to "The thoughts of the heart belong to man but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord" is?

[Molly]

And your point as this relates to "The thoughts of the heart belong to man but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord" is?

That we are the children not of the slave woman but of the free woman.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother TN...

Nice to be, chattin' wit-cha! 

Man devises, he plans, he dreams. This all has to do with the mind, the heart. In the Old Testament the heart is the source of thoughts. It is the mind.

Humans are not robots. They are not a computer program.

I completely agree!  Before there were robots or computer programs to refer to, what were they? 

They were, what they are... members of the BODY of CHRIST... the MEMBERS of a BODY do not decide what they do... the HEAD decides what they do... and they UNKNOWINGLY perform (do) that which the HEAD intends they perform (do)...

GOD decided that His BODY shall KNOW what Good and Evil is... no "what ifs" exist in this project... Only the WILL of GOD in the end bro... for it is BOTH the BEGINNING and END of the project, said project = KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

That men "choose" does not mean they are in CONTROL of those "choices"... as you later note in your words herein...

EXAMPLE:  I (as the head) move my Left BARE FOOT forward for the next step... I accidently BANG it against an object, breaking a toe on my left foot...

My toe had nothing to do with itself getting injured... it was due to the DECISION made by my head...

I realize this is a FINITE observation... but the point is, that the HEAD decides what the BODY shall do... even though the RIGHT LEG and FOOT moved forward, bringing the other FOOT to injury, ...they, even though pivotal participants in the injury, ALSO had nothing to do with the injury as far as the DECISION which resulted in the injury...

Because my FOOT responds to the decision made by my HEAD, does not relegate it to being a ROBOT or COMPUTER program, neither does it relegate it to being a NON living entity... it is just subject, UNKNOWINGLY to the decisions of the HEAD... doing what the HEAD decides that it shall DO... 

"The thoughts of the heart (mind) belong to man [FOOT] but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord." [HEAD] 

True... so who is really RUNNING the "show"? 

Your next words are PERFECT bro... and are the crux of my "foot" story...    We, as the members of the BODY of CHRIST, do not KNOW what we DO...  which is what CHRIST said in His final moments:  Father FORGIVE them, for they KNOW NOT, ...what they DO...

Your next words state this:

devise 
verb, -vised, -vis-ing, noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to contrive, plan, or elaborate; invent from existing principles or ideas: to devise a method. 

Gen 50:20 And you, you devised against me evil, yet the Elohim devises it for me for good, that it may work out as at this day, to preserve alive many people.

Joseph's brothers had no idea that in opposing Joseph and trying to make sure his dreams came to nothing, they were unwittingly fulfilling God's hidden intention.

That men devise evil is the WILL of man actively being ITSELF, ...which "WILL" is created IN MAN, ...by GOD, who is WORKING ALL THINGS after the counself of HIS OWN WILL (Eph 1:11):

They meant it for evil or devised it for evil. Devising has to do with their mind. This has to do with their will. They willed what they were trying to accomplish concerning Joseph for evil.

(1) They could not "DEVISE", unless GOD's POWER were invested in them to DO so... which is about accomplishing the PURPOSE of GOD which is to teach His Children, "G & E"...

(2) That which you and I observe as our "will"... is nothing but the INTENTION of GOD in giving us the EXPERIENCE (through suffering the results) of EVIL (sin, suffering, death for ALL), that we may KNOW GOOD as well... (harmony, health, and life in the WILL of GOD - for ALL)

They dumped Joseph in an empty well and as part of their evil devising they slew one of Jacob's animals, took its blood and put that blood on Joseph's distinctive tunic. They then lied to Jacob. Jacob was a very wealthy man. Probably on the level of Bill Gates today. Had Jacob known that Joseph was sold as a slave into Egypt he would have marched down there and gotten his son back. But this was not in God's plan. God had to keep Jacob in the dark by having his son's lie to him.

Now comes the judging beginning in Genesis 42. Joseph continues to hide his identity and say they are spies. Later he hides money in their bags and hides his silver cup in their bag. They believe all this evil is now coming on them due to what they did to their younger brother Joseph. How true that was!

To make the story short, the final thing which rescues them from guilt is knowing that Joseph is not angry with them and that even though they devised or meant it for evil, God devised or meant if for good.

Again... The conclusion is that GOD uses EVIL to accomplish GOOD, ...the one IN CONTROL is bringing about HIS PURPOSE, by the PRE-Planned Organization of the WILL's of ALL men...  Which is HOW the "Pharaoh" thing was done:

Rom 9:17  God RAISED pharaoh... to GLORIFY Himself in all the WORLD!  HOW?  By showing that the MOST POWERFUL MAN on earth (Pharaoh), is TOTALLY INCAPABLE of withholding the DELIVERANCE of GOD's people... by GOD...   

How did GOD do it? BY (GOD) hardening and softening according to HIS WILL (Rom 9:18)

God's hand was controlling Joseph's brothers because He had to work it out to get Joseph into Egypt in order to be the Saviour of the world.

EXACTLY!  If GOD's hand is CONTROLLING... then Josephs brothers are NOT, ...even though it appears to us as FINITE MEN that we are "in control" by the supposed evidence of our individual "WILLS"... the TRUTH is that GOD is actually IN CONTROL... and our "wills" are essentially, the instruments which GOD uses to display TO US, the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL, by our individual EXPERIENCES with it, and its results...

HARMONY is achieved by ONENESS... when INDIVIDUAL intentions are in use... then theywill inevitably find OPPOSITION to one another... when ONE INTENTION is IN CONTROL... then HARMONY is founded... 

I am a pro musician, and can testify that only the efforts of teamwork dedicated to ONENESS (in the same KEY, in the same TEMPO, in the correct PITCH), exhibits the MUSIC displayed before the listeners to be in HARMONY and excellence...

I believe that we are not all that far apart in our observations bro... and maybe we both are placed here in discussion, ...to tweak the other...   

For we both KNOW ...WHO... is ACTUALLY, ...running the show! 

peacE...
willieH     

[CHB]

(2) That which you and I observe as our "will"... is nothing but the INTENTION of GOD in giving us the EXPERIENCE (through suffering the results) of EVIL (sin, suffering, death for ALL), that we may KNOW GOOD as well... (harmony, health, and life in the WILL of GOD - for ALL)


the TRUTH is that GOD is actually IN CONTROL... and our "wills" are essentially, the instruments which GOD uses to display TO US, the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL, by our individual EXPERIENCES with it, and its results...

Amen, Willie.    

CHB

[Molly]

Does that mean Joseph's evil brothers are off the hook?  No.

Even after Joseph  has restored them, they continue to be paranoid and tortured by their own bad deeds.



15 When Joseph's brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, "What if Joseph holds a grudge against us and pays us back for all the wrongs we did to him?" 16 So they sent word to Joseph, saying, "Your father left these instructions before he died: 17 'This is what you are to say to Joseph: I ask you to forgive your brothers the sins and the wrongs they committed in treating you so badly.' Now please forgive the sins of the servants of the God of your father." When their message came to him, Joseph wept.
 18 His brothers then came and threw themselves down before him. "We are your slaves," they said.

--Gen 50

[Molly]

1 Samuel 18:1
And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.


David, of the tribe of Judah, and Jonathan, of the tribe of Benjamin, were more than friends.  Their souls were knit together.  Jonathan, the son of Saul, was next in line for the kingship of Israel by birth, and yet he threw in all his loyalties with David rather than with his own father, and saved David from the hand of his father, Saul,  who sought to kill him. 

Because of this an oath is made between the two. 

3Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
 4And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.

--1Sam 18



Jonathan exhibits a complete and total dedication to David that is not of this world.



4Then said Jonathan unto David, Whatsoever thy soul desireth, I will even do it for thee.

--1Sam 20



The covenant made between Jonathan and David is one that is meant to survive generations.



14And thou shalt not only while yet I live shew me the kindness of the LORD, that I die not:

 15But also thou shalt not cut off thy kindness from my house for ever: no, not when the LORD hath cut off the enemies of David every one from the face of the earth.

 16So Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, Let the LORD even require it at the hand of David's enemies.

--1 Sam 20



Later, we will see that when the tribes of Israel split apart, it is the tribe of Benjamin that remains with the tribe of Judah.  When the Lord Jesus begins his ministry, he picks his disciples from the tribe of Benjamin, those residing in Galilee.  And, finally, it is the great apostle Paul who promotes the cause of our Lord Jesus and the Gospel of peace to the Gentiles.  The covenant between two men, David and Jonathan, has survived the ages and the generations.



4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

 5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

 6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.


--Phil 3



Benjamin, son of the right hand, transcends the flesh.


26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

--Luke 14

[Tony N]

And your point as this relates to "The thoughts of the heart belong to man but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord" is?

That we are the children not of the slave woman but of the free woman.

And your point about the free woman is . . . ?

The Galatians were mixing law with grace. They began in spirit but thought they could complete themselves by doing the law. They fell out of grace.

Gal 4:31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman."

The point Paul is making is that by using the phrase "free woman" is that we are free from the bondage to law yet free in grace.

 Yet in the same epistle Paul shows us that we can't really do what we want:

Gal 5:17 For the flesh is lusting against the spirit, yet the spirit against the flesh. Now these are opposing one another, lest you should be doing whatever you may want."

And if we have total free will to work to delight God, why is it that God has to be "operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil.2:13)?

I'm sure you probably operate an automobile, right? Do you let go of the wheel and see if the car can delight you by going where you want it to without your controlling it?

So, yes, we are children of the free woman as it relates to the law. But we are not free to do whatever we want.

[Molly]

So, yes, we are children of the free woman as it relates to the law. But we are not free to do whatever we want.

I thought God was in control and means all evil for good, so it didn't matter.

So now we seem to be agreeing.  Almost.


What if what we call freedom, is nothing more than love?--

So that every act we take of our own free will is naturally aligned with Christ because of love.

What if it is the bonds of love which makes us free?



2 "When you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for six years; then in the seventh he is to leave as a free man  without paying anything.  3 If he arrives alone, he is to leave alone; if he arrives with  a wife, his wife is to leave with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children belong to her master, and the man must leave alone.

    5 "But if the slave declares: 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I do not want to leave as a free man,  ' 6 his master is to bring him to the judges  and then bring him to the door or doorpost. His master must pierce his ear with an awl, and he will serve his master for life.

--Ex 21



1 Corinthians 7:22
For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

[Tony N]

1 Samuel 18:1
And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.

26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

--Luke 14

Molly, what does the topic of Jonathan and David have to do with "the thoughts of the heart belong to man, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord"?

I fail to see the correlation.

Also what is the correlation between the verse about hating mother, father etc. have to do with the topic at hand?

[Molly]

It has to do with whether man is responsible for his own actions or not.

You say that man has no responsibility.

No where in the Bible is it ever said that man is responsible.

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

[Derek]

Hi Tony,

You said:

I hope you forgive me by me stating that I go by a more literal and faithful translation than the New Inconsistent Version.

In the Concordant Literal New Testament it has 1 Corinthians 7:24 as:

1Co 7:24 Each one, in what he was called, brethren, in this let him remain with God."
EKLETHE (he was called) has nothing to do with "responsibility" but is the calling of God WHEN he was in the position he was in when called to be believing.

Here are the verses just before verse 24:

1Co 7:20-22  Each one in the calling in which he was called, in this let him be remaining."  (21)  Were you called a slave? Let it not be causing you care. But if you are able to become free also, use it rather."  (22)  For, in the Lord, he who is being called a slave, is the Lord's freedman. Likewise, he who is being called, being free, is a slave of Christ."

Please note that "responsibility" is not what "called" is about.

So if a person was called while he was a slave, in this [position as a slave] let him remain to God. If the slave is able to become free, go for it.

I do not hold to any particular version either (in fact, I'd agree that the CLT is generally a better translation than the NIV, though literal translations can also have their limitations, given that much of the Bible comes from peoples and languages where figurative speech, hyperbole, etc. were used liberally).

My point was not to get into a study on the word "responsibility", but rather that responsibility as a concept saturates scripture, alongside and in harmony with the concept of God's sovereignty.

Also something you wrote kind of stuck out with me . . .

Tony, I'm glad you maintain we have wills and I apologize if I missed that.  To me, by definition, having a will means that we have the ability to make choices (not uninfluenced or unrestricted, but choices nonetheless).  Does the type of vessel really matter in this respect - do not all vessels still have a will?  And since we are not in any position to judge what type of vessel we might be, is the vessel question really relevant to the everyday choices that we must make:  obedience and submission to God's will, or disobedience?

I don't recall anyone posting on this thread ever denying that God's will always trumps our own, regardless of the plans we will make.  But do not all people, including believers, have a God-given degree of freedom within which He is not always restricting or preventing our actions?  We are learning, I agree...and one way is through the consequences our actions have on others and ourselves.

Let us look at the wills of two different types of people and see if they have any relevance to us today: good and rotten

Mat 7:15-20  Take heed of those false prophets who are coming to you in the apparel of sheep, yet inside they are rapacious wolves."  (16)  From their fruits you shall be recognizing them. Not from thorns are they culling grapes, nor from star thistles figs."  (17)  Thus every good tree ideal fruit is producing, yet the rotten tree noxious fruit is producing."  (18)  A good tree can not bear noxious fruit, neither is a rotten tree producing ideal fruit."  (19)  Every tree not producing ideal fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.  (20)  Consequently, from their fruits you shall surely be recognizing them."

Do the rotten trees really have the capabilities to make choices in which they can bring forth good fruit in their life? Likewise, do the good trees have the capabilities to make choices in which they can bring forth noxious fruit in their life? Now Christ was not really talking about trees but people. Can the rapacious wolves have the capability to choose not to be rapacious? Can the sheep have the capability to choose to be rapacious like the wolf?

No, a beast cannot be responsible for its actions.  A human endowed with the Spirit of God is free from their beast nature, and can chose to bend its will to either the flesh or to the Spirit.

You wrote

I don't recall anyone posting on this thread ever denying that God's will always trumps our own, regardless of the plans we will make.

God's will does not always have to trump our own. If we plan to do this or that and it is in harmony with His will then He need not trump it. Right? At least I think that is what you are driving at.

"The thoughts of the heart belong to man, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord."

We plan, we dream, we desire to do this or that, but the whole disposing of those plans, those dreams, those desires is of the Lord. Otherwise they will not come to pass.

Of course, when God wishes to intervene directly at any time and in any way He does so at His pleasure.  Yes, God's will does not have to trump our own; that is the whole point - our goal is to constantly and willingly, as a response of love to His Love, submit our wills to His, presenting our bodies as living sacrifices.

We know from the word that it is His pleasure to test us.  A test is pointless unless there is more than one possible outcome.  We know from the word that God shows patience to us.  Why would He need patience with us?  Because of our ability and inclination to choose to sow to the flesh, rather than the Spirit. 

I believe that God is big enough that He can know the full story of all our lives from beginning to end, without negating the (limited) freedom we have to make choices throughout our lives.

Let us not use our freedom to indulge in the sinful nature, but rather, to serve one another in love.

Yours in Christ,

Derek