Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?

[Dean]

My view,

In the last 8 years of my life I have witnessed many who were victimized as children... become free.

The common thread woven throughout was the Spiritual surgery God performed in each of their lives to accept that He fully intended that everything in their lives was necessary for them to be exactly who they are.

Being engaged in a fight against God does not lead to liberty in Christ..it just continues the argument about how we think God is wrong, in how He has chosen to mold us. Accepting that the "should not be's" in our world...exist...and that God has determined them necessary for the completion of His plan requires...surrender. This surrender is a fatal blow to the self loathing and fear that dominates the lives of those who have known little else and becomes the fertile ground for a gentleness and intimacy with God that births... freedom.

Dean

I can relate to what your saying Dean.   I understand that bad things exist and that how it is.  I am glad God created evil not because I like it, but because he had to have created it for his glory.  God gives an experience of evil to us to humble us.  No, we  do not like that aspect of our lack of control,  there are certainly many many things we have no control over. 

But when we get humbled, we can surrender or we can continue to fight,  God certainly will direct our feet and the next choice maybe we will surrender then, or maybe we are still stubborn.   That is why God is longsuffering and patient.


One of the reasons that it is hard for people to believe that all go to heaven is that they do not understand how our liberty and Gods will is the greatest miracle.

Paul,

Thank you for your response.

You said that when we get humbled we can surrender or continue to fight...for me...this surrender or fight belongs...to God's intentions for us.

My own surrender came about at great personal cost and IMO, was not voluntary nor of the power of my own will. Today, I consider surrender one of the sweetest words and actions in my life and a mystery that is akin to God's glory...in the sense that His Glory is His...alone.  How it IS...that one surrenders, while many do not, remains hidden in God. I think God decides when someone is READY...to give up the resentments they have about how God has treated them. These are often our best kept secrets that are nothing more than a toxic poison hindering us from having an initimate and honest relationship with the Father.

Thinking, that God is and has not been ...fully responsible for that which He has Created...keeps us bound to the supposed power of our own selves to change us and seperate from the power of God...who IMO, is in complete and total control. I know I could be wrong about this, and that perhaps it is some of this and some of that. But...when I believed in free will...I did not know or experience being transformed like I have since rejecting it.

Dean

[reFORMer]

I have read the conversation from the beginning.  While some of what is said has practical application or has come out of real life situations, I had hoped you all who seem so convinced about what you're saying, regardless of your positions, would apply the balm you believe you hold to the narrative of a very representative man who has seen his tortured life go down the drain though he willfully gave himself over to do the will of God. (reply#137, p.6)  Not only how can he get free, entering into God's salvation; but, how can your doctrines be applied in his life?

[Moshood]

This is how I see it...

An innumerable amount of factors beyond our control are at work in us dictating what we will choose in any given scenario therefore, if presented with a choice between A or B an underlying cause is already in place that will bring about whatever option we choose.

[Derek]

Hi Tony,

You said:

Dear Derek, thanks for writing. I have always maintained that we have wills. We are not robots. But we are vessels, some made by God for indignation and some for mercy.  These vessels cannot say to God: Why have you made me thus? Yet God did.
We as humans plan, we dream of doing this or that, we desire certaing things in life. "The thoughts of the heart belong to man but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord." It could be that God will judge (set us straight) not just for what we do but more so for our improper thoughts concerning what we planned and did.

Tony, I'm glad you maintain we have wills and I apologize if I missed that.  To me, by definition, having a will means that we have the ability to make choices (not uninfluenced or unrestricted, but choices nonetheless).  Does the type of vessel really matter in this respect - do not all vessels still have a will?  And since we are not in any position to judge what type of vessel we might be, is the vessel question really relevant to the everyday choices that we must make:  obedience and submission to God's will, or disobedience?

I don't recall anyone posting on this thread ever denying that God's will always trumps our own, regardless of the plans we will make.  But do not all people, including believers, have a God-given degree of freedom within which He is not always restricting or preventing our actions?  We are learning, I agree...and one way is through the consequences our actions have on others and ourselves.

A good idea of this is to be found in James:

Jam 4:13-16  Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there, and we will be trafficking and getting gain-"  (14)  who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing-"  (15)  instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that."  (16)  Yet now you are vaunting in your ostentations. All such boasting is wicked.

Notice how the people involved in the scenario above have planned to go to this or that city and doing this and that while there. That is the realm of the human, to dream and plan on doing such things as that. Yet what does James say? What the individuals should say is "if we are living and if the Lord whould ever be willing we also shall be doing this or that." In other words, if the Lord is not willing, we won't have our plans fulfilled. And surely, if we die we won't. I can take this scenario and put all kinds of other scenarios into it . . . I want to go to the store. I want to go to this or that restaurant. I want to go to the bank. I want to fly to California. I want to repy to Derek's post. I want to go on a picnic etc. etc. etc. If God is not willing me to do any of those things then they won't get done. Any boasting otherwise is wicked, James says.

Of course if God is unwilling, He can override any dreams or desires or plans we have; this does not in any way equate to God directing every word, thought, and deed that we have

Yes, our wills can be and are influenced - by our own fleshly nature (by which alone we would be held fully captive had not God intervened), by spiritually wicked forces, by other people, and also by God's Spirit.  In this sense, our wills are not "free" in the classically-debated sense (indeed, as Paul says, I think everyone would be much better off dropping the "free" in these kinds of discussions).

But to preach a doctrine that says we are not responsible for our words (and actions); that all words from every person reflect the will of God at all times - not only is that logically impossible (self-contradictory), as Paul also just pointed out, but downright unBiblical, against the teachings of the apostles, and frankly, quite dangerous.

If the Bible said we are responsible then I could believe it. It does not. It just says we will give an account (a word) concerning our actions. Neither guilt nor innocence is inherrent in the phrase "give an account."

Relatively speaking, human to human, there is a sense of responsibility. I am responsible for taking care of my daughter and what I say to her etc. But that is only in a relative sense. Absolutely speaking, if, at the end of my life I receive indignation as my judging then I am not responsible for that for God made me a vessel of indignation. The one who receives mercy was made a vessel of mercy (Romans 9). The vessel of mercy is not responsible for being made that way either. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

The Bible teaches responsibility to God as well (responsibility merely being an English word that speaks or things that are expected or required of us; even some English translations use the word to convey this, such as the NIV:  1 Corinthians 7:24: Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to. )

This verse, by the way, speaks of remaining or abiding in our place - "should remain" implies the ability of an individual to not remain - in other words, the possibility of (temporary) rebellion against God's will.

Indeed, does not God's desire and ability to teach us "lessons", as you inferred you believe in your second comment quoted above, in itself require that the objects of these lessons possess a will - the ability to choose?  Otherwise what could possibly be meant by someone "learning a lesson" - it MUST mean that they must learn to CHOOSE properly.

I believe God will teach us lessons in the future in the judging (in the setting right) how our thoughts were improper as to what was done. For instance, David had Uriah murdered so he could have Bathsheba. His thinking was all wrong. He probably thought it was all his fault. But he could not have done otherwise for it was in God's plan that Bathsheba be in the lineage of the Christ and that a Solomon be born from that marriage.

I think God teaches us lessons now, too, not just in the future judging as you stated here.

And as I said before concerning Shemei speaking harsh words to David while he was fleeing, God told Shimei to say those things. The Bible says so. But there was a two-fold reason: God wanted David humbled and wanted Shimei killed by Solomon.

The same when David said to number Israel. David's heart smote him for he thought he sinned. The Bible says Satan made him number them and the Bible also says God made him. David wrongly thought it was all his fault. In the judging God will show David he could not have done otherwise. What God was really after was to kill 70,000 men in Israel.

Pro 16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own pertinent end,
Yea even the wicked for the day of evil."

Yes, there are many circumstances where God has and continues to intervene directly, to the over-riding of our own wills.  Any all things are made to work towards God's ultimate end.  But it truly is a miracle how He has devised the means by which He grants us liberty even while patiently, yet inexorably, working all actions towards His ultimate purpose.

Within the outworking of this plan, the choices we make and the manner in which we exercise our wills determine much in the way of suffering and blessing to both ourselves and those our lives affect.

Tony, I believe that you are seeking to honor God by giving Him glory in emphasizing His sovereignty.  I do not seek to disagree with you on that point, but believe that, in forcefully promoting God's sovereignty (which is an integral message, especially, for example, to ET-believing Arminianists), it is possible to veer too far, to a place where the many admonitions to obedience throughout scripture are ignored and we essentially deny God the fully-formed, willingly-submitted children that He is creating.

Sincerely yours,

Derek

[Dean]

reFORMer,

The following is a story that has proven to be useful in my own life.



On the day the Baal Shem Tov was dying, he called together his disciples and assigned each of them a task to carry on in his name, to continue his work, When he finished, he had still one more task. And so he called the last disciple and gave him this responsibility: to go all over Europe to retell stories about the Master. The disciple was very disappointed. This was hardly a prestigious job. But the Baal Shem Tov told him that he would not have to do it forever; he would receive a sign when he should stop and then he would live out the rest of his life in ease.

The disciple set off, and after days and months turned in to years and years of telling stories, until he felt ha had told them in every part of the world. Then he heard of a man in Italy, a nobleman in fact, who would pay a gold ducat for each new story told. So the disciple made his way to Italy to the nobleman's castle. When he arrived, however, he discovered to his absolute horror that he had forgotten all the Baal Shem Tov stories!
 
The next day and the next day he remembered nothing. Finally, on the fourth day the disciple protested that he must go, out of sheer embarressment. As he was about to leave, indeed as he was walking down the path leading from the castle, suddenly he remembered one story. It wasn't much of a story, but at least it woulf prove that he was not a charlatan, that he did indeed know the great Ball Shem Tov, for he was the only disciple there when this story took place. Clinging to his memory of the stories thread, he made his way back to the castle, this is the story the disciple began to pour out to the nobleman.

Once the Baal Shem Tov told him to harness the horses, so that they could take a trip to Turkey, where at this time of year the streets were decorated for the Christians' Easter festival. The disciple was upset: It was well known that Jews were not safe in that part of Turkey during the Christian Holy Week and Easter.  They were fair game for Christians shouting,
"God-killer!" And, in fact, in the very region the master proposed to go, it was the custom during the Easte festival each year to kill one Jew in reparation.

Still, the Baal Shem Tov insisted and so they went. They went into the city and made their way into the Jewish quarter, where the Jews were all huddled indoors, behind closed shutters, out of fear. Thus secluded, they awaited the end of the festival. Imagine, then, how startled they were when the Tov, on being shown into the room where they were gathered, strode over to the shudders, threw them open, and stood there in full view, just as the procession was entering the town square!

Looking thru the window, he saw the bishop leading the procession. Turning to the disciple, the maste said, "Go tell the bishop I want to see him." Was he out of his mind? Did he want to die? Did he want me to die? the disciple remembered wondering. But nothing could dete this order, so the disciple made his way through the crowd, came around behind the bishop and more gesturing than speaking the words, the disciple whispered to the bishop that the Baal Shem Tov wanted to see him.

The bishop seemed agitated and hesitated for a moment. But after his sermon, he came, and he and the Baal Shem Tov went immiediately into the back room, where they were secluded together for three hours. Then the master came out and, without saying anything else, told his disciple that they were ready to go back home.

As the disciple finished the story, he was about to apologize to the nobleman for its insignificance, for its lack of a point, when he suddenly noticed the enormous impact the story had had on the nobleman. He had dissolved into tears and, finally, when he could speak, he said, "Oh disciple,your story has just saved my soul! You see, I was there that day. I was that bishop. I had descended from a long line of distinguished rabbis but one day during a period of great persecution, I had abandoned the faith and converted to Christianity. The Christians, of course, were so pleased that, in time, they even made me a bishop. And I accepted everything, even went along with the killing of the Jews each year until that one year. The night before the festival I had a terrible dream of the Day of Judgement and the danger to my soul. So when you came the very nest day with a message from the Baal Shem Tov, I knew I had to go to him.

"For three hours he and I talked. He told me that there still might be hope for my soul. He told me to sell my goods and retire on what was left and live a life of good deeds and holiness. There might still be hope. And his last words to me were these: "When a man comes to you and tells you your own story, you will know that your sins are forgiven."

"So I have been asking everyone I knew for stories from the Baal Shem Tov. And I recognized you immediately when you came, and I was happy. But when I saw that all the stories had been taken from you, I recognized God's judgement. Yet now you have remembered one story, my story, and I know that the Master has interceded on my behalf and that God has forgiven me."


"When someone comes to you and tells you your own story, you know that your sins are forgiven. And when you are forgiven, you are healed." E Kutrz

Dean

[Tony N]

Dear Molly,
Could  you please tell me how I am wrong with what I wrote above? I'm curious as to what you really think about what I wrote. Can you please use scripture to show what i wrote above is wrong?

well, let me put it this way.  Unless I lined up my will with the will of the sociology professor, there was no way he was going to predict what I was going to do.

Free will--the scourge of tyrants throughout history.

Thank God!

Therefore, since God predicts every step you will ever take, your will must line up with His and therefore you have no free will. Right?

[Tony N]

Hi Derek,
Thanks for such a nice response! Truly appreciated.

May I just bring up something you wrote concerning human responsibility?

You wrote:

The Bible teaches responsibility to God as well (responsibility merely being an English word that speaks or things that are expected or required of us; even some English translations use the word to convey this, such as the NIV:  1 Corinthians 7:24: Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to. )

This verse, by the way, speaks of remaining or abiding in our place - "should remain" implies the ability of an individual to not remain - in other words, the possibility of (temporary) rebellion against God's will.

I hope you forgive me by me stating that I go by a more literal and faithful translation than the New Inconsistent Version.

In the Concordant Literal New Testament it has 1 Corinthians 7:24 as:

1Co 7:24 Each one, in what he was called, brethren, in this let him remain with God."
EKLETHE (he was called) has nothing to do with "responsibility" but is the calling of God WHEN he was in the position he was in when called to be believing.

Here are the verses just before verse 24:

1Co 7:20-22  Each one in the calling in which he was called, in this let him be remaining."  (21)  Were you called a slave? Let it not be causing you care. But if you are able to become free also, use it rather."  (22)  For, in the Lord, he who is being called a slave, is the Lord's freedman. Likewise, he who is being called, being free, is a slave of Christ."

Please note that "responsibility" is not what "called" is about.

So if a person was called while he was a slave, in this [position as a slave] let him remain to God. If the slave is able to become free, go for it.

Also something you wrote kind of stuck out with me . . .

Tony, I'm glad you maintain we have wills and I apologize if I missed that.  To me, by definition, having a will means that we have the ability to make choices (not uninfluenced or unrestricted, but choices nonetheless).  Does the type of vessel really matter in this respect - do not all vessels still have a will?  And since we are not in any position to judge what type of vessel we might be, is the vessel question really relevant to the everyday choices that we must make:  obedience and submission to God's will, or disobedience?

I don't recall anyone posting on this thread ever denying that God's will always trumps our own, regardless of the plans we will make.  But do not all people, including believers, have a God-given degree of freedom within which He is not always restricting or preventing our actions?  We are learning, I agree...and one way is through the consequences our actions have on others and ourselves. 

Let us look at the wills of two different types of people and see if they have any relevance to us today: good and rotten

Mat 7:15-20  Take heed of those false prophets who are coming to you in the apparel of sheep, yet inside they are rapacious wolves."  (16)  From their fruits you shall be recognizing them. Not from thorns are they culling grapes, nor from star thistles figs."  (17)  Thus every good tree ideal fruit is producing, yet the rotten tree noxious fruit is producing."  (18)  A good tree can not bear noxious fruit, neither is a rotten tree producing ideal fruit."  (19)  Every tree not producing ideal fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.  (20)  Consequently, from their fruits you shall surely be recognizing them."

Do the rotten trees really have the capabilities to make choices in which they can bring forth good fruit in their life? Likewise, do the good trees have the capabilities to make choices in which they can bring forth noxious fruit in their life? Now Christ was not really talking about trees but people. Can the rapacious wolves have the capability to choose not to be rapacious? Can the sheep have the capability to choose to be rapacious like the wolf?

You wrote:

I don't recall anyone posting on this thread ever denying that God's will always trumps our own, regardless of the plans we will make.

God's will does not always have to trump our own. If we plan to do this or that and it is in harmony with His will then He need not trump it. Right? At least I think that is what you are driving at.

"The thoughts of the heart belong to man, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord."

We plan, we dream, we desire to do this or that, but the whole disposing of those plans, those dreams, those desires is of the Lord. Otherwise they will not come to pass.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...

"Why then is He still blaming? for Who hath withstood His intention?"

No one hath withstood His intention yet He is still blaming because that is what they need to experience.

That verse is being misused.

Says you...  Tony is noting that in the process of gaining the knowledge of Good and Evil... that GOD is giving this teaching via EXPERIENCE of the two, that we might gain it...

And BLAMING us for evil, is just, because it is HE which RESCUES us from that blame, via the GRACE HE provided in His Son's Cross...

It is very convenient that Craig is the object of the one that needs to learn but of course, willie certainly believes that none of his comments instigate anything, because he can say I Love you and post cute icons.

Slow down there cowboy!  I am certainly NOT innocent of any arguement, nor are YOU!  It takes TWO to argue bro... and if I am found out of line within it, I WILL make apology for those words... and have done so many times during my 4 years at TM... (not proud of ANY of those mistakes, but am thankful for the opportunity to humble myself)...

I am not above making apologies when they are due (which, by the way I would never make, if I claimed to be totally innocent)...

Also... YOU could say "I LOVE you" once in awhile,  ...and I don't think that it would HURT you in any way... furthermore, I GURANTEE that I would not DIS you for saying it... as you have herein done with me... 

You herein so much as (subliminally) call me disingenuous... insinuating that when I say that I LOVE Craig, ...I do not mean it, ...I resent you for this...    ...and feel sorry for you...  ...and FORGIVE you as well... 

If I post "cute emoticons"... that is MY choice... and I do it to accentuate my demeanor at the moment of posting...  Why should I recieve REPRIMAND from YOU for it? 

If these little guys are so bad... WHY are they here and made available?  I think they require CREATIVITY in their use, and most who abstain from using them, are often UNCREATIVE in their writing as well...  How does that taste Paul? 

He does that because yes he does believe that everthing he does is of God so if he writes a comment it was not his fault.  Very convenient yes indeed.   I experienced that from him when I first joined, he can try to sell it but I'm not buyin.

Not trying to "sell" you anything Paul... As REVELATION is coming forth, we either have ears to hear or we don't...  Only GOD can give ears to Hear... If I say something to you which is REVELATION or vice-versa... GOD shall decide if one or the other shall gain it...

You, like Craig, are in the mode of observation which does not receive correction... rather wishes to correct...  As far as I am concerned... I do not have the ability to CORRECT you... for I am CLAY being molded simulataneously to YOURSELF...  But in my submission to the Father... I die to myself, and leave whatever is left, as an instrument for His use...

This does not mean that everything which proceeds from me is the "end-all"!  It only means that it is my heart's intention that YHVH is all that proceed from me... yet I am humble enough to know that ...I DO get in the way within my actions (as Paul noted himself in Rom 7)... and that the INWARD man, does not always make it to the surface!

That TOO is the will of YHVH... for He decides when I am part of His communications, and when I am NOT...

We all have liberty to make choices in what is presented to us.

 

Choosing according to THAT which YHVH has already DECLARED we shall... His WORD is not a FINITE REPORT to FINITES!   

It is the ETERNAL WORD in the PRESENCE of FINITES!  (Is 46:10-11 / Rom 4:17)

YOU don't see it that way?  ...well, I'll try not to lose too much sleep over it! 

You can fool yourself into thinking that this is like some computer program running and whatever happens happens, but that is a lie.  The lie is that someone WHOEVER they are cannot choose to silence thier tongue.

If GOD has ordained that YOU shall DO, SPEAK or ENACT anything, YOU... cannot DO, SPEAK or ENACT differently... Ask Jacob & Esau (Rom 9:11)

They had done NEITHER good nor evil, NOT even BEEN BORN! ...yet their DESTINY was already NAMED and OUTLINED!  Did they do otherwise Paul? 

You see less than you think... WHO created EVIL Paul?  WHO designed its parameters?  WHO stands by and watches it occur?

ALL things have their BEGINNING and END, in CHRIST (alpha & omega)... EVIL is serving a PURPOSE which most shall not see... it is to GLORIFY GOD, not to bring up questions about WHY He created it!

That is my whole point in this,  it is easy to justify what we do when it is wrong because when we say we have no control,  the scriptures that place issues our way in the bible are there and so are the ones where God says it is him.  So there is both involved.

Where has anyone JUSTIFIED "doing wrong" Paul?  Please quote! 

WRONG is to be DONE, otherwise... RIGHT is not REVEALED to name it so! And GOD would not have CREATED it to be manifest!   This is milky stuff dude...

No one here has noted that the practice of EVIL is "okay"... because GOD has paid the bill!  GOD raised PHARAOH to HOLD the people of GOD CAPTIVE... so WHO is really their (people of God) ...CAPTOR? (Rom 9:17 / Jer 29:14)

If GOD drove His people into the hands of CAPTIVITY... and HE is the one FREEING from that CAPTIVITY... what portion is ACTUALLY done by the people?  They are participants for their own GOOD... to KNOW what it is like to be CAPTIVE (temporal), and then to KNOW what it is like to be FREE (forever)!!!

So your wrong, and not because God did it, it is because it is easier to take the wide road.

The "WIDE ROAD" is in part, to name others WRONG...

The "NARROW ROAD" is to KNOW:  ALL have sinned and come short... and to admit to being one of them... and within that humility, GOD shall set your foot upon that "NARROW ROAD" bro...

peacE...
willieH     

[Molly]

Dear Molly,
Could  you please tell me how I am wrong with what I wrote above? I'm curious as to what you really think about what I wrote. Can you please use scripture to show what i wrote above is wrong?

well, let me put it this way.  Unless I lined up my will with the will of the sociology professor, there was no way he was going to predict what I was going to do.

Free will--the scourge of tyrants throughout history.

Thank God!

Therefore, since God predicts every step you will ever take, your will must line up with His and therefore you have no free will. Right?

16 This is what the LORD says:
    Stand by the roadways and look.
    Ask about the ancient paths:
    Which is the way to what is good?
    Then take it
    and find rest for yourselves.
    But they protested: We won't!


--Jeremiah 6
   

[jabcat]

What I say and plan, and what God ultimately brings to pass, can be two very different things  .  Man, that's an ugly guy.  They found a picture of me to put on here.  I plan my steps, but the Lord directs my way.  God's blessing, James.

[Tony N]

O.K. we are getting somewhere, Molly. Let's disect this whole argument.

You asked:

Anybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?
lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

And so I answered this:

Dear Molly,
Surely the will of man is not strong enough for a person to stop sinning. If it were we would have no need of a Saviour to save us from our sins.

Mankind, all of mankind, were MADE sinners (Romans 5:19), the Bible tells me so. This was due to just one man, Adam sinning. The only way we will be able to stop sinning is when we are MADE righteous (Romans 5:19) and again, this is due to one man, Jesus, being obedient unto death.

Then you replied:

wow.  This reminds me of when our sociology professor announced to the class that every behavior of humans on a social scale is ultimately predictable by the science of sociology.

It was shortly afterwards that I started my unpredictability campaign, launched on the first day with the class entering the classroom through the windows.

Thanks for the memory!

I was befuddled by your response above and asked you:

Dear Molly,
Could  you please tell me how I am wrong with what I wrote above? I'm curious as to what you really think about what I wrote. Can you please use scripture to show what i wrote above is wrong?

And so you replied:

well, let me put it this way.  Unless I lined up my will with the will of the sociology professor, there was no way he was going to predict what I was going to do.

Free will--the scourge of tyrants throughout history.

Thank God!

And so I took the most logical step from what you replied above and posted this reply:

Therefore, since God predicts every step you will ever take, your will must line up with His and therefore you have no free will. Right?

But then you wrote this:

16 This is what the LORD says:
    Stand by the roadways and look.
    Ask about the ancient paths:
    Which is the way to what is good?
    Then take it
    and find rest for yourselves.
    But they protested: We won't!
--Jeremiah 6

Now I don't know about you and your thought processes, I have to admit I never have understood how women think. I think God played a dirty trick on men by creating women the way He did with their different way of thinking but, hey, who am I to question God's wisdom? You don't have the freedom to think differently than the way God created you anymore than a zebra can change its stripes.
But it seems to me from your last reply above to mine that you don't really believe what you posted prior to that.

Molly, what on earth does Jeremiah 6 have to do with Romans 5:18,19 as to how all mankind were MADE sinners due to what Adam did? Now then Jeremiah 6 which you posted above begs the question, WHY WON'T THEY? It is because they were MADE SINNERS, Molly.

It is useless for our wills to free us from sin, Molly, because we were made sinners. The only way God has ensured freedom from sin is not by our wills but by Christ being obedient to the cross as Romans 5:18, 19 show. I answered your question but it seems you don't like the Biblical answer?

"Why are You leading us astray, Yahweh, from Your ways?
Making our heart indurate to Your fear?
 Turn back, on account of Your servants,
 the tribes of Your allotment." Isa 63:17

God purposely led Israel astray and made their hearts indurate to fear Him. This continued on into Christ's day where Christ thanked God that "He hides these things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to minors." Where's the free will in all that? How could these people use their wills to free themselves from sin? They couldn't. God set it up that way. The only way is for Him to save them out of their sin by His Son. It is according to His will, not theirs.

[CHB]

willieH: Hi Paul...

"Why then is He still blaming? for Who hath withstood His intention?"

No one hath withstood His intention yet He is still blaming because that is what they need to experience.

That verse is being misused.

Says you...  Tony is noting that in the process of gaining the knowledge of Good and Evil... that GOD is giving this teaching via EXPERIENCE of the two, that we might gain it...

And BLAMING us for evil, is just, because it is HE which RESCUES us from that blame, via the GRACE HE provided in His Son's Cross...

It is very convenient that Craig is the object of the one that needs to learn but of course, willie certainly believes that none of his comments instigate anything, because he can say I Love you and post cute icons.

Slow down there cowboy!  I am certainly NOT innocent of any arguement, nor are YOU!  It takes TWO to argue bro... and if I am found out of line within it, I WILL make apology for those words... and have done so many times during my 4 years at TM... (not proud of ANY of those mistakes, but am thankful for the opportunity to humble myself)...

I am not above making apologies when they are due (which, by the way I would never make, if I claimed to be totally innocent)...

Also... YOU could say "I LOVE you" once in awhile,  ...and I don't think that it would HURT you in any way... furthermore, I GURANTEE that I would not DIS you for saying it... as you have herein done with me... 

You herein so much as (subliminally) call me disingenuous... insinuating that when I say that I LOVE Craig, ...I do not mean it, ...I resent you for this...    ...and feel sorry for you...  ...and FORGIVE you as well... 

If I post "cute emoticons"... that is MY choice... and I do it to accentuate my demeanor at the moment of posting...  Why should I recieve REPRIMAND from YOU for it? 

If these little guys are so bad... WHY are they here and made available?  I think they require CREATIVITY in their use, and most who abstain from using them, are often UNCREATIVE in their writing as well...  How does that taste Paul? 

He does that because yes he does believe that everthing he does is of God so if he writes a comment it was not his fault.  Very convenient yes indeed.   I experienced that from him when I first joined, he can try to sell it but I'm not buyin.

Not trying to "sell" you anything Paul... As REVELATION is coming forth, we either have ears to hear or we don't...  Only GOD can give ears to Hear... If I say something to you which is REVELATION or vice-versa... GOD shall decide if one or the other shall gain it...

You, like Craig, are in the mode of observation which does not receive correction... rather wishes to correct...  As far as I am concerned... I do not have the ability to CORRECT you... for I am CLAY being molded simulataneously to YOURSELF...  But in my submission to the Father... I die to myself, and leave whatever is left, as an instrument for His use...

This does not mean that everything which proceeds from me is the "end-all"!  It only means that it is my heart's intention that YHVH is all that proceed from me... yet I am humble enough to know that ...I DO get in the way within my actions (as Paul noted himself in Rom 7)... and that the INWARD man, does not always make it to the surface!

That TOO is the will of YHVH... for He decides when I am part of His communications, and when I am NOT...

We all have liberty to make choices in what is presented to us.

 

Choosing according to THAT which YHVH has already DECLARED we shall... His WORD is not a FINITE REPORT to FINITES!   

It is the ETERNAL WORD in the PRESENCE of FINITES!  (Is 46:10-11 / Rom 4:17)

YOU don't see it that way?  ...well, I'll try not to lose too much sleep over it! 

You can fool yourself into thinking that this is like some computer program running and whatever happens happens, but that is a lie.  The lie is that someone WHOEVER they are cannot choose to silence thier tongue.

If GOD has ordained that YOU shall DO, SPEAK or ENACT anything, YOU... cannot DO, SPEAK or ENACT differently... Ask Jacob & Esau (Rom 9:11)

They had done NEITHER good nor evil, NOT even BEEN BORN! ...yet their DESTINY was already NAMED and OUTLINED!  Did they do otherwise Paul? 

You see less than you think... WHO created EVIL Paul?  WHO designed its parameters?  WHO stands by and watches it occur?

ALL things have their BEGINNING and END, in CHRIST (alpha & omega)... EVIL is serving a PURPOSE which most shall not see... it is to GLORIFY GOD, not to bring up questions about WHY He created it!

That is my whole point in this,  it is easy to justify what we do when it is wrong because when we say we have no control,  the scriptures that place issues our way in the bible are there and so are the ones where God says it is him.  So there is both involved.

Where has anyone JUSTIFIED "doing wrong" Paul?  Please quote! 

WRONG is to be DONE, otherwise... RIGHT is not REVEALED to name it so! And GOD would not have CREATED it to be manifest!   This is milky stuff dude...

No one here has noted that the practice of EVIL is "okay"... because GOD has paid the bill!  GOD raised PHARAOH to HOLD the people of GOD CAPTIVE... so WHO is really their (people of God) ...CAPTOR? (Rom 9:17 / Jer 29:14)

If GOD drove His people into the hands of CAPTIVITY... and HE is the one FREEING from that CAPTIVITY... what portion is ACTUALLY done by the people?  They are participants for their own GOOD... to KNOW what it is like to be CAPTIVE (temporal), and then to KNOW what it is like to be FREE (forever)!!!

So your wrong, and not because God did it, it is because it is easier to take the wide road.

The "WIDE ROAD" is in part, to name others WRONG...

The "NARROW ROAD" is to KNOW:  ALL have sinned and come short... and to admit to being one of them... and within that humility, GOD shall set your foot upon that "NARROW ROAD" bro...

peacE...
willieH     

I said I wouldn't post any more but I just couldn't help my self. 

Willie, this post was awesome and I know it came straight from God.    Please don't misunderstand me everyone, I am not referring to willie as God. 

Isn't life like a dominos effect?    When one falls it causes another to fall until it gets to the end.  One thing happens to bring about another thing, until we get to the end. 

CHB

[Molly]

Hi Tony, That very first quote you put there is from Reformer.  Im waiting for Reformer to answer the question he posed, since no one else is answering it.

Jeremiah 6--they refuse to do what God asks of them.  But, let's go back to Gen 4. 


6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you furious?  And why are you downcast?  7 If you do right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must master it."

--Gen 4


Why is God telling Cain to do what is right?  Why is God telling Cain the consequences of two choices?  Isn't it because Cain has two choices?  Do what is right or do not do what is right.

So did God make Cain kill Able?  Or give him no choice but to kill Able?


Back to Jeremiah 6.   Why would God punish them so harshly if it was not their fault that they would not follow his command?  By now the road is 'ancient':  Do what is right.  Why is God angry if they have no free will?  Certainly he would know that because he created them.

6 For this is what the LORD of Hosts says:
    Cut down the trees;
    raise a siege ramp against Jerusalem.
    This city must be punished.
    There is nothing but oppression within her.

    7 As a well gushes out its water,
    so she pours forth her evil.
    Violence and destruction  resound in her.
    Sickness and wounds keep coming to My attention.

    8 Be warned, Jerusalem,
    or I will be torn away from you;
    I will make you a desolation,
    a land devoid of inhabitant.


--Jeremiah 6

[Tony N]

Molly,
God is trying to get them to see that they cannot do what is right.

If a child thinks they know it all a wise parent will set up circumstances to get them to see they don't. The parent will say Come on! Do it! I thought you knew it all! Come on! If you don't do it you will be sent to your room! Well?! Do it!

Now you may say: I'm glad I'm not a child of that parent. But really, that is what God was doing with Israel. God never intended them to keep the law yet He constantly sent prophets to them telling them DO IT! Come on! Do it! If you don't you will receive the curses of the law!!!!

And what about Cain and Abel?

Gen 4:3-7  And coming is it, at the end of days, that bringing is Cain, from the fruit of the ground, a present offering to Yahweh.  (4)  Abel also is bringing, he, moreover, from the firstlings of his flock, and from their fat. And heed is Yahweh giving to Abel and to his present offering,  (5)  yet to Cain and to his present offering He does not give heed. And hot is Cain's anger exceedingly, and falling is his face.  (6)  And saying is Yahweh Elohim to Cain, "Why is your anger hot? And why does your face fall?  (7)  Would you not, should you be doing well, lift it up? And should you not be doing well, at the opening a sin offering is reclining, and for you is its restoration. And you are ruler over it.

God was telling Cain that at the gate is a sin offering He has put there for Cain before he even did wrong. God provided the sin offering. He told Cain that he is ruler over that sacrifice and all he has to do is just to offer it up as a sin offering. God is doing to Cain what He later did to Israel. Come on Israel! Do the law! Come on! What's the matter with you?! Just do it! But he was getting them to see that they could not do it, that they needed a Saviour.

Since God literally is everywhere "in Him we are moving and living and are" (Acts 17) and since "He gives to all, life and breath and all" (Acts 17), He gave to Cain the experience of killing righteous Able who is a type of Christ. God also had Christ killed by Israel.
Since God is everywhere and since God did not stop Cain from killing Abel, God is still responsible for Cain killing Abel. It is like a cop in a park. The cop just stands a few feet from an insane man and the insane man is pounding on a girl and the cop does nothing about it. He could but does not. The girl dies. Who is at fault?
Joseph is a type of Christ. God had Joseph's brothers sell him off to Egypt and made it look like he was killed. Who was at fault? God was. His brothers "meant it for evil but God MEANT it for good."

You dig?
Tony

[Molly]

You dig?
Tony

No.  but it's not my fault.

[CHB]

I have come to believe that our will, or what you call free will, is our works. Didn't God give Israel the Law? Israel said "I will do them". Could they? I believe God is showing Israel that their will or works means diddly squat. We cannot work or will ourselves righteous and God is showing them this.

Think about Job. Job thought he had done everything to please God through his works. He thought he was righteous and he was according to his works and will but God told Job this...(Job 38:36) Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? See, Job couldn't have done anything that he did if not for God. (Job 40:10) Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. God goes on to tell Job to bring down the proud and tread down the wicked. (Verse 14) Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

I believe we are in this life to learn the difference between good and evil, that is why the tree was in the garden of Eden.

Didn't Jesus tell his disciples "without me you can do nothing"? Didn't Jesus say without the Father He "could do nothing"?

What does the word nothing mean? {A thing that does not exist}

God gave Israel laws to show them they could do nothing on their own.  He gave Job all that Job had and took it all away to show Job he didn't acquire it nor loose it on his own. Job learned that God is sovereign. These things takes away the pride that all of us humans are born with and it turns our focus on to God. I think this is the place where God is leading all of us. I still have a long ways to go.

CHB  

 

[Molly]

well, let's take Cain.  Cain has two choices:  give the right offering or kill Abel.

Wouldn't it be easier to ask his brother for a lamb than to kill him?

In a way, Cain takes the more difficult road.

So why doesn't Cain just trade some tomatoes for a lamb and make a proper offering to God?

Are you saying because he cannot?

One interesting thing:  there is forgiveness for Abel, but none for Cain--because he won't make the right offering.  He refuses.

[CHB]

The way I view this about Cain and Able is...lets say, Cain is all of the children of God who isn't being called at this time and Able is.

We know that Cain will eventually bow the knee just not at this time. Cain had choices but where did they come from? It all goes back to ONE source, God. Lets say, if Cain hadn't killed Able, would that have changed the lineage from Adam to Christ? Also there wouldn't have been those lessons that were learned because of it all. Just think of all the things that Adam, Eve, and Cain learned from it all.

CHB

[Tony N]

You dig?
Tony

No.  but it's not my fault.

Hey, you get it! 

[Molly]

The flip side of that is somebody is doing the right thing here.

Abel.

Abel does the right thing, he is innocent of any wrong doing, and he gets murdered.

Again, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world--the righteous Abel.

[Tony N]

well, let's take Cain.  Cain has two choices:  give the right offering or kill Abel.

Wouldn't it be easier to ask his brother for a lamb than to kill him?

God already provided the offering and told him so:
"at the opening a sin offering is reclining, and for you is its restoration. And you are ruler over it." He didn't have to ask Able.

In a way, Cain takes the more difficult road.

But why? Because he doesn't like God's way. He wants to approach God with his own sacrifice, not the one approved by God as an approach sacrifice. Why doesn't he like God's way? Because he is MADE a sinner due to what his father, Adam did.

So why doesn't Cain just trade some tomatoes for a lamb and make a proper offering to God?

Why doesn't Cain just take the animal God provided for him freely at the opening? Because he is MADE a sinner. He doesn't want to do it God's way. He is not free to do it God's way.

Are you saying because he cannot?

Not only cannot but will not because he is made a sinner.

One interesting thing:  there is forgiveness for Abel, but none for Cain--because he won't make the right offering.  He refuses.

And it begs the question, why does he refuse. Why does Abel not refuse? Both are made sinners. Both are made of the same flesh. God told us the flesh is not able to please God (Romans 8) "indeed it is not able." (Not meaning to be a play on words there . . . Abel . . . able. 

It all has to do with what God wants done.
Jacob and Esau, both made sinners and both made of flesh and both could not please God in and of themselves. No freedom to do so. Yet Romans 9 says before they were born or put into practice anything good or bad . . .

Rom 9:11 For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling,

I think it was the same for Cain and Abel. No freedom for Cain to be a vessel of mercy and no freedom for Abel to be made a vessel of indignation.

I realize this is not popular but, did Christ ever win a popularity contest while alive?

[studier]

Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.

And of course willie is not responsible for his words either, thats why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them.

and of course this little icon makes all the difference   


See how much love there is because I posted icons.

Hi Paul,
Yes, you are correct that willie is not responsible for his words also. But you err in saying that is why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them. He says them because he believes them and he believes them because God has opened his eyes, ears and heart to those words. And since "God is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight" I would say that just as Shimei said what he said to David because God made him say them, thus also willieH said what he said to dear Craig because that is what God wanted expressed. 

Pro 16:1 To humanity belong the arrangements of the heart, Yet from Yahweh comes the answer of the tongue."

Willie believes the personal remarks he makes towards Craig because God open his eyes to them and justifies them being said.   Of course, it all makes sense now.

Indeed then God opened Craigs eyes in the same manner, so if someone chastises someone else in effect God is chastizing himself because he is causing everyone to do everything exactly as they are doing it.


If I am in error, then you are in error for saying I am in error because God is the one who is pulling my strings, so God in in error, then God is in error for causing you to be in error because it is certainly not you being in error because you do nothing but it is God,  so God is in error.

Yep. Idiocracy.

[Tony N]

If I am in error, then you are in error for saying I am in error because God is the one who is pulling my strings, so God in in error, then God is in error for causing you to be in error because it is certainly not you being in error because you do nothing but it is God,  so God is in error.

Maybe this is why David acknowledged that it was O.K. for Shimei in 2 Samuel 16 to throw stones at him and curse him because David said God told him to do so. So it was O.K. for Shimei to do the wrong thing. But God was not in error for making Shimei humiliate David. And God is not in error for making you espouse the error of free will.
Neither am I in error for stating that God has caused you to be in error since that is the truth.
God is in charge.

What is the greatest sin in the universe? The murder of God's Son. And yet God made them murder Him. Was God wrong to do that? No. Was it wrong for Peter to charge Israel with murder of God's Son? No. No one has withstood His intention. No one.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly...

well, let's take Cain.  Cain has two choices:  give the right offering or kill Abel.

Wouldn't it be easier to ask his brother for a lamb than to kill him?

I do not agree with your observation Molly... for the following reasons:

(1) the WORD of God (which is ETERNAL and is NOT in need of the manifestation of TIME, in order to BE), and is WITHOUT POSSIBLE VARIATION, ...notes that CAIN slew ABEL...

(2) if CAIN truly had the "choice" to do otherwise, and it was POSSIBLE that he would do so... would COMPROMISE the WORD of God...   It appears to the reader of the story that CAIN had a "choice" which was at the MERCY of "his WILL" to be as it occured, and not at the MERCY of GOD's WILL...

That the event which ACTUALLY took PLACE, coincides with the WORD of GOD, means that CAIN slew ABEL... BECAUSE it IS WRITTEN that he DID as IS NOTED in the ETERNAL WORD... not BECAUSE Cain decided this event would occur of HIS decision.

In a way, Cain takes the more difficult road.

Yes, ...but CAIN just took the "difficult road" that we ALL must take (which ends in DEATH)... for ALL have SINNED (even those yet to be born), and COME SHORT of the GLORY of GOD... BECAUSE the WORD says we ALL shall take that "difficult road"...

So why doesn't Cain just trade some tomatoes for a lamb and make a proper offering to God?

I have already answered this question... BECAUSE it is WRITTEN that he DID NOT do so...  Again, I remind you... that the "REPORT" of this murder is an ETERNAL PROCLAMATION, ...not a FINITE one (requiring the chronology of TIME to be manifest, or manipulated by MEN according to their "will")!

Are you saying because he cannot?

He CANNOT... and he DID NOT... for the WORD ...SAYS... he DID NOT...  (Gen 4:8 )

ALL must meet DEATH, to include both CAIN and ABEL...  ABEL died at the hand of CAIN, which was/is ...NOTED in the SCRIPTURE and the SCRIPTURE ...cannot be broken (is TRUE FOREVER)... (John 10:35)

One interesting thing:  there is forgiveness for Abel, but none for Cain--because he won't make the right offering.  He refuses.

He only "refused" because THAT is what GOD said he would do (in SCRIPTURE)... even though we walk through life making "choices"... EACH of our lives are found in the same IMPARTIALITY of CHRONOLOGY as the others...

GOD is NO respecter of PERSONS... which means that ALL not only can (choice), but WILL (ordained to), ...SIN... As CHB says:

God gave Israel laws to show them they could do nothing on their own.  He gave Job all that Job had and took it all away to show Job he didn't acquire it nor lose it on his own. Job learned that God is sovereign. These things takes away the pride that all of us humans are born with and it turns our focus on to God. I think this is the place where God is leading all of us.

ALL events which occur in Creation are molded in the hand of GOD... and choice is just a factor that APPEARS in our hands, but actually when the options are presented, the outcome has already been determined... As prophecy notes, as SCRIPTURE reports, etc...  NO notation in the WORD could have been other than it IS NOTED.

GOD's WORD is the ETERNAL foundation [which is NOW] upon which stands, the FIRM BASIS of PROPHECY (time in the future/reported)... and is the FIRM BASIS of the PAST (time already spent/reported)...

EVERYTHING occurs as it DOES because GOD is in charge of NOW... and NOW [in motion] is all that TIME actually ...IS... (NOW=time spent/past ...and... NOW=time yet to be spent/future), ...until ALL within it (time) ENDS where it BEGAN... in CHRIST! (alpha and omega - the BEGINNING, ...IS... the END!)

peacE...
willieH     

[Nathan]

So Willie, you're saying then that the argument as to whether Cain had a choice to kill or not to kill is really irrelevant because Scriptures states he did and for us to consider him not killing his brother is to become an adversary to Truth??

If this is what you're saying (and correct me if it's not) then  . . . well . . this really opens a can of worms . . .how can we argue all of our "what if" theories then??