Author Topic: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?  (Read 58281 times)

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Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #150 on: November 21, 2008, 03:08:53 PM »
Quote
Anybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?

lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

Dear Molly,
Surely the will of man is not strong enough for a person to stop sinning. If it were we would have no need of a Saviour to save us from our sins.

Mankind, all of mankind, were MADE sinners (Romans 5:19), the Bible tells me so. This was due to just one man, Adam sinning. The only way we will be able to stop sinning is when we are MADE righteous (Romans 5:19) and again, this is due to one man, Jesus, being obedient unto death.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #151 on: November 21, 2008, 03:29:32 PM »
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.

Did not Jesus say: Father forgive them for they know not what they do? And does not the Bible say that if they did know they would not have crurcified the Lord (1 Cor.2:8)? Yet they crucified Him because the Scriptures HAD TO BE FULFILLED.

Remember when David went out to the wilderness to flee and Shimei met him along the road and threw stones at David and railed against him? David's servants wanted to take his head off. But what did David say to them?

2Sa 16:10 And the king said, `What is it to me and to you, O sons of Zeruiah? Leave him alone. Thus is he maledicting because Yahweh told him, Maledict David! So who should say, Wherefore have You done so?.
2Sa 16:11 And David said unto Abishai, and unto all his servants, `Lo, my son who came out of my bowels is seeking my life, and also surely now the Benjamite; leave him alone, and let him maledict, for Yahweh told him to;"

So Shimei did not have a free will to do otherwise because Yahweh made him revile David just as God made Craig revile us.

We should show Craig love and longsuffering because
2Sa 16:12 it may be Yahweh does look on mine affliction, and Yahweh has turned back to me good for his reviling this day..
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 05:09:33 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #152 on: November 21, 2008, 03:55:53 PM »
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.


And of course willie is not responsible for his words either, thats why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them.

and of course this little icon makes all the difference   :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:


See how much love there is because I posted icons.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #153 on: November 21, 2008, 04:01:57 PM »
Quote
Anybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?

lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

Dear Molly,
Surely the will of man is not strong enough for a person to stop sinning. If it were we would have no need of a Saviour to save us from our sins.

Mankind, all of mankind, were MADE sinners (Romans 5:19), the Bible tells me so. This was due to just one man, Adam sinning. The only way we will be able to stop sinning is when we are MADE righteous (Romans 5:19) and again, this is due to one man, Jesus, being obedient unto death.

Sure seems to be a lot of emotion in this thread lately.  I do like this particular line of thought . . .because the church . .mainline . .would like you to think that you "must" make an effort to be perfect . . faith WITHOUT WORKS . . . they love to twist that one a lot.  

What if we looked at ourselves as a car and God is the driver.  I go where I go because that's where i'm driven to go.  If God let's go of the wheel . .. I'll surely crash because I can't tell the difference between a spiritual road and a spiritual ditch.  I "must" have God at my wheel.  I can argue about the will all I want . . .but for me, the truth is . . .if God let's go of what steers me to him . . .I'll surely veer off the road of truth and light the first chance I get because I'm just a vessle that carries the cargo of truth . . .I am not truth.  

Now, granted a car in an inanimate object and has no mind . . .all though the newer ones they make now make you wonder.  I do what I'm programmed to do.  The first Adam programmed my mind to reason from a fallen nature perspective.  But Christ came . .. chose me, and called me to be a priest and a king.  And since that call, my mind has been going through a renewing process . . .so that when I see things in Scripture that don't line up with my reasoning . . .what is that needs to change?  The text or my perspective?

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.  1 John 3

I'm gonna take a stab and say it's my perspective that needs to change.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #154 on: November 21, 2008, 05:00:35 PM »
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.


And of course willie is not responsible for his words either, thats why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them.

and of course this little icon makes all the difference   :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:


See how much love there is because I posted icons.

Hi Paul,
Yes, you are correct that willie is not responsible for his words also. But you err in saying that is why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them. He says them because he believes them and he believes them because God has opened his eyes, ears and heart to those words. And since "God is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight" I would say that just as Shimei said what he said to David because God made him say them, thus also willieH said what he said to dear Craig because that is what God wanted expressed.  :HeartThrob:

Pro 16:1 To humanity belong the arrangements of the heart, Yet from Yahweh comes the answer of the tongue."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 05:02:25 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #155 on: November 21, 2008, 05:19:12 PM »
Quote
Anybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?

lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

Dear Molly,
Surely the will of man is not strong enough for a person to stop sinning. If it were we would have no need of a Saviour to save us from our sins.

Mankind, all of mankind, were MADE sinners (Romans 5:19), the Bible tells me so. This was due to just one man, Adam sinning. The only way we will be able to stop sinning is when we are MADE righteous (Romans 5:19) and again, this is due to one man, Jesus, being obedient unto death.
wow.  This reminds me of when our sociology professor announced to the class that every behavior of humans on a social scale is ultimately predictable by the science of sociology.

It was shortly afterwards that I started my unpredictability campaign, launched on the first day with the class entering the classroom through the windows.

Thanks for the memory! :laughing7:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #156 on: November 21, 2008, 05:26:26 PM »
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.


And of course willie is not responsible for his words either, thats why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them.

and of course this little icon makes all the difference   :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:


See how much love there is because I posted icons.

Hi Paul,
Yes, you are correct that willie is not responsible for his words also. But you err in saying that is why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them. He says them because he believes them and he believes them because God has opened his eyes, ears and heart to those words. And since "God is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight" I would say that just as Shimei said what he said to David because God made him say them, thus also willieH said what he said to dear Craig because that is what God wanted expressed.  :HeartThrob:

Pro 16:1 To humanity belong the arrangements of the heart, Yet from Yahweh comes the answer of the tongue."


Willie believes the personal remarks he makes towards Craig because God open his eyes to them and justifies them being said.   Of course, it all makes sense now.

Indeed then God opened Craigs eyes in the same manner, so if someone chastises someone else in effect God is chastizing himself because he is causing everyone to do everything exactly as they are doing it.


If I am in error, then you are in error for saying I am in error because God is the one who is pulling my strings, so God in in error, then God is in error for causing you to be in error because it is certainly not you being in error because you do nothing but it is God,  so God is in error.



Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #157 on: November 21, 2008, 05:39:32 PM »
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.


And of course willie is not responsible for his words either, thats why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them.

and of course this little icon makes all the difference   :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:


See how much love there is because I posted icons.

Hi Paul,
Yes, you are correct that willie is not responsible for his words also. But you err in saying that is why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them. He says them because he believes them and he believes them because God has opened his eyes, ears and heart to those words. And since "God is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight" I would say that just as Shimei said what he said to David because God made him say them, thus also willieH said what he said to dear Craig because that is what God wanted expressed.  :HeartThrob:

Pro 16:1 To humanity belong the arrangements of the heart, Yet from Yahweh comes the answer of the tongue."


Willie believes the personal remarks he makes towards Craig because God open his eyes to them and justifies them being said.   Of course, it all makes sense now.

Indeed then God opened Craigs eyes in the same manner, so if someone chastises someone else in effect God is chastizing himself because he is causing everyone to do everything exactly as they are doing it.

If I am in error, then you are in error for saying I am in error because God is the one who is pulling my strings, so God in in error, then God is in error for causing you to be in error because it is certainly not you being in error because you do nothing but it is God,  so God is in error.

Still not quite there Paul.
God put lying spirits in the mouths of some of the prophets so that a king would be deceived about going into a battle making the king think he could win while all the time God knew it would be his downfall (1 Kings 22).
Just because someone says something does not mean it is the truth. Now please don't say that God lied or that God is a liar for He is not and does not lie Himself. He sends emmisaries to do His bidding just as he sent Shimei to David.

So just because Craig rails against me and willie does not mean what he is saying is the truth or that God has opened his eyes to the truth. It just means that this is what God has given to Craig because God wants to teach Craig a lesson just as he taught Shimei a lesson after Solomon became king and dealt with Shimei for what he did to his father on that road. That too was of God.

"Why then is He still blaming? for Who hath withstood His intention?"

No one hath withstood His intention yet He is still blaming because that is what they need to experience.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 05:44:18 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #158 on: November 21, 2008, 05:50:11 PM »
Quote
Anybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?

lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

Dear Molly,
Surely the will of man is not strong enough for a person to stop sinning. If it were we would have no need of a Saviour to save us from our sins.

Mankind, all of mankind, were MADE sinners (Romans 5:19), the Bible tells me so. This was due to just one man, Adam sinning. The only way we will be able to stop sinning is when we are MADE righteous (Romans 5:19) and again, this is due to one man, Jesus, being obedient unto death.
wow.  This reminds me of when our sociology professor announced to the class that every behavior of humans on a social scale is ultimately predictable by the science of sociology.

It was shortly afterwards that I started my unpredictability campaign, launched on the first day with the class entering the classroom through the windows.

Thanks for the memory! :laughing7:

Dear Molly,
Could  you please tell me how I am wrong with what I wrote above? I'm curious as to what you really think about what I wrote. Can you please use scripture to show what i wrote above is wrong?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #159 on: November 21, 2008, 06:00:04 PM »
Quote
Anybody answering my post (reply # 137) about the uselessness of our will in getting free from sin?  Just how do we stop sinning?

lol Im waiting patiently...for your answer.

Dear Molly,
Surely the will of man is not strong enough for a person to stop sinning. If it were we would have no need of a Saviour to save us from our sins.

Mankind, all of mankind, were MADE sinners (Romans 5:19), the Bible tells me so. This was due to just one man, Adam sinning. The only way we will be able to stop sinning is when we are MADE righteous (Romans 5:19) and again, this is due to one man, Jesus, being obedient unto death.
wow.  This reminds me of when our sociology professor announced to the class that every behavior of humans on a social scale is ultimately predictable by the science of sociology.

It was shortly afterwards that I started my unpredictability campaign, launched on the first day with the class entering the classroom through the windows.

Thanks for the memory! :laughing7:

Dear Molly,
Could  you please tell me how I am wrong with what I wrote above? I'm curious as to what you really think about what I wrote. Can you please use scripture to show what i wrote above is wrong?
well, let me put it this way.  Unless I lined up my will with the will of the sociology professor, there was no way he was going to predict what I was going to do.

Free will--the scourge of tyrants throughout history.

Thank God!

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #160 on: November 21, 2008, 06:05:40 PM »

"Why then is He still blaming? for Who hath withstood His intention?"

No one hath withstood His intention yet He is still blaming because that is what they need to experience.


That verse is being misused.   It is very convenient that Craig is the object of the one that needs to learn but of course, willie certainly believes that none of his comments instigate anything, because he can say I Love you and post cute icons.   He does that because yes he does believe that everthing he does is of God so if he writes a comment it was not his fault.  Very convenient yes indeed.   I experienced that from him when I first joined, he can try to sell it but I'm not buyin.


We all have liberty to make choices in what is presented to us. 

You can fool yourself into thinking that this is like some computer program running and whatever happens happens, but that is a lie.  The lie is that someone WHOEVER they are cannot choose to silence thier tongue.

That is my whole point in this,  it is easy to justify what we do when it is wrong because when we say we have no control,  the scriptures that place issues our way in the bible are there and so are the ones where God says it is him.  So there is both involved.


So your wrong, and not because God did it, it is because it is easier to take the wide road.


Offline Nathan

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #161 on: November 21, 2008, 07:11:17 PM »
That is my whole point in this,  it is easy to justify what we do when it is wrong because when we say we have no control

You're not the first one to present this issue . . . is there anywhere in this thread or others where people have actually stated that I can do whatever I please and if it's wrong, it's God that is causing me to do it?

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #162 on: November 21, 2008, 07:23:18 PM »

"Why then is He still blaming? for Who hath withstood His intention?"

No one hath withstood His intention yet He is still blaming because that is what they need to experience.


That verse is being misused. 

Not really.
Tell Pharaoh to let My people go. Yet he will not. Why will he not? Because it is my intention that while Pharaoh resists my will he will be fulfilling My intention. He cannot resist My intention. Egypt must be wrecked!

Likewise, it is God's intention that Craig say one thing and willie respond.


  
Quote
It is very convenient that Craig is the object of the one that needs to learn but of course, willie certainly believes that none of his comments instigate anything, because he can say I Love you and post cute icons.   He does that because yes he does believe that everthing he does is of God so if he writes a comment it was not his fault.  Very convenient yes indeed.   I experienced that from him when I first joined, he can try to sell it but I'm not buyin.

Craig believes in self-determinism in which nothing caused willie to write what he did. It just happened.

Quote
We all have liberty to make choices in what is presented to us. 

Scripture please?
I don't doubt we make choices. But it begs the question: What causes us to choose A from B? Choices are not causeless. They are not without influence so how can they be free in the sense of free will? They cannot. Pharaoh was presented with Let My people go. The choice was either to do that or keep them. God hardened his heart so that the choice would be to keep them. I'm sure Pharaoh in his pride thought he made the choice himself without any influence at all.

Quote
You can fool yourself into thinking that this is like some computer program running and whatever happens happens, but that is a lie.  The lie is that someone WHOEVER they are cannot choose to silence thier tongue.

No need for me to fool myself. The Bible says that "God gives to all, life and breath and ALL." Your job, your spouse, your kids, your home, your clothes, your faith or lack thereof is all from God. It is not a computer program. It is God operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.

Quote
That is my whole point in this,  it is easy to justify what we do when it is wrong because when we say we have no control,  the scriptures that place issues our way in the bible are there and so are the ones where God says it is him.  So there is both involved.

I think you need to rewrite that paragraph. It is too jumbled for me to understand.

Quote
So your wrong, and not because God did it, it is because it is easier to take the wide road.

Oh, o.k. that makes sense . . . I think :dontknow:


« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 07:30:15 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #163 on: November 21, 2008, 07:23:45 PM »
That is my whole point in this,  it is easy to justify what we do when it is wrong because when we say we have no control

You're not the first one to present this issue . . . is there anywhere in this thread or others where people have actually stated that I can do whatever I please and if it's wrong, it's God that is causing me to do it?



It is impossible to answer the question in the manner in which you imply,  it is a trick question to the issue at hand.

The reason it is impossible is because some do not believe they can do as they please in the first place.  So when they are acting in a manner that is wrong, or they instigated something in a thread in the first place, they were not doing as they pleased, they were doing as God ordained.

It is a very sneaky thing and many people do not see it.  It is a way to do as they please without saying thats what they are doing.


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #164 on: November 21, 2008, 07:26:53 PM »
Craig believes in self-determinism in which nothing caused willie to write what he did. It just happened.


Oh, now it just happened?   This is why you cannot be believed, it is this self contradictory nonsense that tries to get presented here.



Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #165 on: November 21, 2008, 07:28:40 PM »
Craig believes in self-determinism in which nothing caused willie to write what he did. It just happened.


Oh, now it just happened?   This is why you cannot be believed, it is this self contradictory nonsense that tries to get presented here.




Sure it just happened, nothing caused willie to write what he did if we take Craig's idea of self-determinism to its logical conclusion, which I find absurd.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 07:30:56 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #166 on: November 21, 2008, 07:31:25 PM »
Yes this argument seems to be falling of its own weight.

We are not God's puppets.

Nor would I ever want to lay at the feet of God man's inhumanity to man.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #167 on: November 21, 2008, 07:33:25 PM »

Quote
We all have liberty to make choices in what is presented to us. 

Scripture please?







Pr 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, Yet Yahweh establishes his steps.


It does not say Yahweh devises a way in a mans heart.  If there isn't a certain liberty we are given then there is no way "A MAN can devise HIS way.

The problem is that people think that God doesn't present us choices according to his will to allow our will the choice.

God also says this.

Pr 5:21 For the ways of a man are before the eyes of Yahweh, Who ponders all his routes.


God has accounted for our liberty so that we can never remain lost forever.  But we have a liberty to take a route and God has planned for that route by directing our feet after we devise a way.






Dean

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #168 on: November 21, 2008, 07:42:49 PM »
My view,

In the last 8 years of my life I have witnessed many who were victimized as children... become free.

The common thread woven throughout was the Spiritual surgery God performed in each of their lives to accept that He fully intended that everything in their lives was necessary for them to be exactly who they are.

Being engaged in a fight against God does not lead to liberty in Christ..it just continues the argument about how we think God is wrong, in how He has chosen to mold us. Accepting that the "should not be's" in our world...exist...and that God has determined them necessary for the completion of His plan requires...surrender. This surrender is a fatal blow to the self loathing and fear that dominates the lives of those who have known little else and becomes the fertile ground for a gentleness and intimacy with God that births... freedom.

Dean



« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 07:52:25 PM by Dean »

Derek

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #169 on: November 21, 2008, 07:44:29 PM »
Hi Tony,

You stated:

Quote
Yes, you are correct that willie is not responsible for his words also

and

Quote
...this is what God has given to Craig because God wants to teach Craig a lesson just as he taught Shimei a lesson after Solomon became king and dealt with Shimei for what he did to his father on that road.

Yes, God's sovereign will always trumps any other, and yes, without His intervention we'd all be "dead meat".

But given that ALL of the scriptures are literally saturated, from end-to-end, Genesis-to-Revelation, with words and examples which show us that not only does man also have a will, but that God is deeply concerned that we learn to exercise this will properly (i.e. in obedience to Him), and has provided both the means and the power to do so, how can you deny that an integral part of God's will, concerning mankind His creation, is to provide us with our own wills. 

Yes, our wills can be and are influenced - by our own fleshly nature (by which alone we would be held fully captive had not God intervened), by spiritually wicked forces, by other people, and also by God's Spirit.  In this sense, our wills are not "free" in the classically-debated sense (indeed, as Paul says, I think everyone would be much better off dropping the "free" in these kinds of discussions).

But to preach a doctrine that says we are not responsible for our words (and actions); that all words from every person reflect the will of God at all times - not only is that logically impossible (self-contradictory), as Paul also just pointed out, but downright unBiblical, against the teachings of the apostles, and frankly, quite dangerous.

Indeed, does not God's desire and ability to teach us "lessons", as you inferred you believe in your second comment quoted above, in itself require that the objects of these lessons possess a will - the ability to choose?  Otherwise what could possibly be meant by someone "learning a lesson" - it MUST mean that they must learn to CHOOSE properly.

Yours in  Him,

Derek

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #170 on: November 21, 2008, 08:01:06 PM »
My view,

In the last 8 years of my life I have witnessed many who were victimized as children... become free.

The common thread woven throughout was the Spiritual surgery God performed in each of their lives to accept that He fully intended that everything in their lives was necessary for them to be exactly who they are.

Being engaged in a fight against God does not lead to liberty in Christ..it just continues the argument about how we think God is wrong, in how He has chosen to mold us. Accepting that the "should not be's" in our world...exist...and that God has determined them necessary for the completion of His plan requires...surrender. This surrender is a fatal blow to the self loathing and fear that dominates the lives of those who have known little else and becomes the fertile ground for a gentleness and intimacy with God that births... freedom.

Dean



I can relate to what your saying Dean.   I understand that bad things exist and that how it is.  I am glad God created evil not because I like it, but because he had to have created it for his glory.  God gives an experience of evil to us to humble us.  No, we  do not like that aspect of our lack of control,  there are certainly many many things we have no control over. 

But when we get humbled, we can surrender or we can continue to fight,  God certainly will direct our feet and the next choice maybe we will surrender then, or maybe we are still stubborn.   That is why God is longsuffering and patient.


One of the reasons that it is hard for people to believe that all go to heaven is that they do not understand how our liberty and Gods will is the greatest miracle.


Offline Nathan

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #171 on: November 21, 2008, 09:07:39 PM »
Well said Paul . . .well said.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #172 on: November 21, 2008, 09:14:24 PM »
Hi Tony,

You stated:

Quote
Yes, you are correct that willie is not responsible for his words also

and

Quote
...this is what God has given to Craig because God wants to teach Craig a lesson just as he taught Shimei a lesson after Solomon became king and dealt with Shimei for what he did to his father on that road.

Yes, God's sovereign will always trumps any other, and yes, without His intervention we'd all be "dead meat".

But given that ALL of the scriptures are literally saturated, from end-to-end, Genesis-to-Revelation, with words and examples which show us that not only does man also have a will, but that God is deeply concerned that we learn to exercise this will properly (i.e. in obedience to Him), and has provided both the means and the power to do so, how can you deny that an integral part of God's will, concerning mankind His creation, is to provide us with our own wills. 

Dear Derek, thanks for writing. I have always maintained that we have wills. We are not robots. But we are vessels, some made by God for indignation and some for mercy.  These vessels cannot say to God: Why have you made me thus? Yet God did.
We as humans plan, we dream of doing this or that, we desire certaing things in life. "The thoughts of the heart belong to man but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord." It could be that God will judge (set us straight) not just for what we do but more so for our improper thoughts concerning what we planned and did.

A good idea of this is to be found in James:

Jam 4:13-16  Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there, and we will be trafficking and getting gain-"  (14)  who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing-"  (15)  instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that."  (16)  Yet now you are vaunting in your ostentations. All such boasting is wicked.

Notice how the people involved in the scenario above have planned to go to this or that city and doing this and that while there. That is the realm of the human, to dream and plan on doing such things as that. Yet what does James say? What the individuals should say is "if we are living and if the Lord whould ever be willing we also shall be doing this or that." In other words, if the Lord is not willing, we won't have our plans fulfilled. And surely, if we die we won't. I can take this scenario and put all kinds of other scenarios into it . . . I want to go to the store. I want to go to this or that restaurant. I want to go to the bank. I want to fly to California. I want to repy to Derek's post. I want to go on a picnic etc. etc. etc. If God is not willing me to do any of those things then they won't get done. Any boasting otherwise is wicked, James says.

Quote
Yes, our wills can be and are influenced - by our own fleshly nature (by which alone we would be held fully captive had not God intervened), by spiritually wicked forces, by other people, and also by God's Spirit.  In this sense, our wills are not "free" in the classically-debated sense (indeed, as Paul says, I think everyone would be much better off dropping the "free" in these kinds of discussions).

But to preach a doctrine that says we are not responsible for our words (and actions); that all words from every person reflect the will of God at all times - not only is that logically impossible (self-contradictory), as Paul also just pointed out, but downright unBiblical, against the teachings of the apostles, and frankly, quite dangerous.

If the Bible said we are responsible then I could believe it. It does not. It just says we will give an account (a word) concerning our actions. Neither guilt nor innocence is inherrent in the phrase "give an account."

Relatively speaking, human to human, there is a sense of responsibility. I am responsible for taking care of my daughter and what I say to her etc. But that is only in a relative sense. Absolutely speaking, if, at the end of my life I receive indignation as my judging then I am not responsible for that for God made me a vessel of indignation. The one who receives mercy was made a vessel of mercy (Romans 9). The vessel of mercy is not responsible for being made that way either. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Quote
Indeed, does not God's desire and ability to teach us "lessons", as you inferred you believe in your second comment quoted above, in itself require that the objects of these lessons possess a will - the ability to choose?  Otherwise what could possibly be meant by someone "learning a lesson" - it MUST mean that they must learn to CHOOSE properly.

I believe God will teach us lessons in the future in the judging (in the setting right) how our thoughts were improper as to what was done. For instance, David had Uriah murdered so he could have Bathsheba. His thinking was all wrong. He probably thought it was all his fault. But he could not have done otherwise for it was in God's plan that Bathsheba be in the lineage of the Christ and that a Solomon be born from that marriage.

And as I said before concerning Shemei speaking harsh words to David while he was fleeing, God told Shimei to say those things. The Bible says so. But there was a two-fold reason: God wanted David humbled and wanted Shimei killed by Solomon.

The same when David said to number Israel. David's heart smote him for he thought he sinned. The Bible says Satan made him number them and the Bible also says God made him. David wrongly thought it was all his fault. In the judging God will show David he could not have done otherwise. What God was really after was to kill 70,000 men in Israel.

Pro 16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own pertinent end,
Yea even the wicked for the day of evil."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 09:21:25 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #173 on: November 21, 2008, 09:18:02 PM »
Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.

Did not Jesus say: Father forgive them for they know not what they do? And does not the Bible say that if they did know they would not have crurcified the Lord (1 Cor.2:8)? Yet they crucified Him because the Scriptures HAD TO BE FULFILLED.

Remember when David went out to the wilderness to flee and Shimei met him along the road and threw stones at David and railed against him? David's servants wanted to take his head off. But what did David say to them?

2Sa 16:10 And the king said, `What is it to me and to you, O sons of Zeruiah? Leave him alone. Thus is he maledicting because Yahweh told him, Maledict David! So who should say, Wherefore have You done so?.
2Sa 16:11 And David said unto Abishai, and unto all his servants, `Lo, my son who came out of my bowels is seeking my life, and also surely now the Benjamite; leave him alone, and let him maledict, for Yahweh told him to;"

So Shimei did not have a free will to do otherwise because Yahweh made him revile David just as God made Craig revile us.

We should show Craig love and longsuffering because
2Sa 16:12 it may be Yahweh does look on mine affliction, and Yahweh has turned back to me good for his reviling this day..

I totally agree dear brother, totally agree...  :cloud9:

Btw...  :teaching: GREAT SCRIPTURAL example!   :ok:  ...thanks!  :ty:

peacE...
willieH     :icon_king:

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #174 on: November 21, 2008, 09:35:53 PM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Thanks willieH for the nice response to dear Craig.

Of course we know Craig is not responsible for that post you just replied to because he could not do otherwise.


And of course willie is not responsible for his words either, thats why he says them because he does not have to take responsibility for them.

RIGHT ON!  NOT "responsible"... just ACCOUNTABLE... if I have spoken GOOD, then my "account" of myself before GOD will be favorable, and NOT SHAMEFUL...

GOD shall find that "good" to His liking, which "good" shall not be found in SHAME, rather, clothed in the LOVE of CHRIST... (Rev 3:18)

and of course this little icon makes all the difference   :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:

See how much love there is because I posted icons.

The LOVE is not there BECAUSE you posted emoticons Paul... that LOVE is present, ...PROMPTS the display of them...

Their use (as ...I... use them) is to aid in broadcasting my demeanor to another, which is quite difficult to do in TEXT...

I'm smiling now, can you see it? :dunno: ...of course not... :mnah:

But when I add  :bigGrin: ...you now "see" that smile...  :yes:

That YOU don't like "sugar" in your coffee,  :coffee2:  ...doesn't mean I need to abstain from sweetening  :coffee: ...mine...   :HeartThrob:

peacE...
willieH     :icon_king:
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 09:48:02 PM by willieH »