Author Topic: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?  (Read 41284 times)

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Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2008, 03:23:20 AM »
Hahaha. WillieH how about reading the thread, because obviously you aren't. It is apparent you don't know what either Martin or myself have been talking about this entire time but once again your very irrelevant responses. I don't have time for your games of word manipulation to bother addressing anything you wrote since your objections most of the time, have nothing to do with what either Martin or myself had stated in this thread. Taking me out of context, won't help your case either. If you want to worship a selfish God, who only cares for Himself, then you go ahead. The God I worship, became a man and told us to love one another as He loved us, then died FOR US. In other words, you cannot see the forest from the trees. Whether or not all things were done by His Will, His will has always been for us.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 03:37:20 AM by SOtW »

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2008, 07:46:12 AM »
Hahaha. WillieH how about reading the thread, because obviously you aren't. It is apparent you don't know what either Martin or myself have been talking about this entire time but once again your very irrelevant responses. I don't have time for your games of word manipulation to bother addressing anything you wrote since your objections most of the time, have nothing to do with what either Martin or myself had stated in this thread.

Who deemed this a private conversation between you & Martin?  :dunno:

Hate to tellya bro  :director:  YOU and Martin aren't the only ones discussing in this thread... :grouppray:

WORD MANIPULATION:laughing7:  Now THAT's a BEAUT coming from you!  :LH:

If you said anything with redeeming value, I might bother reading it... to this point, all you do is rehash the same old dead stuff... thinking you already know everything, and to your detriment, you are unable to learn accordingly...

Basically, you won't answer what I said, because it is the TRUTH... and you cannot say anything effective against it...

But just to show you that I'm a nice guy... I'll pick out one of your little replies and see what comes up... (probably -- ad shominem will pop up, because you can't win an arguement with me, so you call it an attack... or ad pukeinem... because you sickeningly sidestep everything I say...)

Taking me out of context, won't help your case either. If you want to worship a selfish God, who only cares for Himself, then you go ahead.

 :laughing7: Please... GOD is hardly SELFISH and I did not IMPLY that He is... I merely stated that ALL THINGS were made BY HIM and FOR HIM... In that, is found blessing for ALL THINGS, because in HIS LOVE, He is sharing HIMSELF with those THINGS... you accuse me of taking YOU out of context, and that is exactly what you attempt here... :rolleye:

I noticed that you did not QUOTE where I said GOD was "SELFISH"... and that "He only cares for Himself" ...those are YOUR WORDS, not mine... for they are in a QUOTE (above in GREEN) which is stated by YOU, not willieH!

btw... I really don't care what you and Martin are talking about... I care about the portion of the conversation you have aimed at me, and my beliefs... and responded to it...

You guys can talk about the yard sale next door, or the tv shows coming up... or even maybe the topic of this thread... have fun...  :boogie: ...no problemo!  :thumbsup:

But when it comes down to it Craig, ...you have no answers for my reply to you, because it is the TRUTH... and the TRUTH is that which MAKES one FREE, ...not one's mythical "free will"...

The God I worship, became a man and told us to love one another as He loved us, then died FOR US. In other words, you cannot see the forest from the trees. Whether or not all things were done by His Will, His will has always been for us

Yadda-yadda...  :wacko2:

Please Craig...  :laughhand: ...your replies grow weaker with every word...

You stubbornly fail to recognize that GOD is in TOTAL control of His Creation, by trying to convince others that YOU have a portion of it under yours...  :laugh:

I plainly outlined how the TRUTH works, and what it DOES... by noting that process with SCRIPTURE...

You have now been shown the TRUTH... and you are more than welcome to continue in your ignorance...

No sweat :heat:  ...bro...  :wink1:

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2008, 07:47:58 AM »
willieH: Howdy brother M... :hithere:

Free will, not expressed as self determination, but as self motivation in response to the call of the Gospel is never set aside by a single page of the New Testament[/b].

I dont agree bro...  SOVEREIGNTY is found controlling this whole scenario, if one looks closer:

Rom 9:11-12  For being NOT YET BORN, neither having done ANYTHING GOOD or EVIL, that the PURPOSE of GOD ...according to ELECTION... might stand, NOT of WORKS, but of HIM that CALLETH...  It was SAID unto her: the ELDER shall SERVE the YOUNGER...

Where is "FREE WILL" or "SELF DETERMINATION" or "SELF MOTIVATION", or whatever "title" one seeks to attach to the will of man, found in this passage of the NT?  :dontknow:
willieH    :handshake:

WillieH, I am home sick today. But you know what? After reading what you wrote above, I rejoice in God to see that YOU GET IT!

Thank you God for making my day!

Tony

Peace bro... This post made mine as well!  :friendstu:

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

tormented seeker

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2008, 08:10:16 AM »
 Dear SOTW,

My soul hurts, from reading the way you respond to others. Please, friend, remember that love is the most important gift we have.

Your brutal character attacks, diminish the love we have for each other, within the body of Christ. We can disagree, yet, respect and love each other. I am sure you did not mean to come across so harshly, but your responses not only detract from you, but also your views. I am not saying this to hurt, embarrass or offend you, but because you are my brother in Christ and your words show such pain.

TS
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 10:32:16 AM by tormented seeker »

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2008, 09:32:13 AM »
How can it be that such a small group is responsible for the death of 50 million  people (WWII)?  This was not just Hitler, although he was the standard bearer for them.  It was not just his merry band of thugs--geobbels, himmler, speer, and so on, although they are the most famous of the group.  There is another group who financed these monsters whose names will never be mentioned by mainstream history, because the victors write the history, and no matter who won or who lost the war, these financiers would always be the real winners.

This small group managed to subjugate entire countries, and hypnotize them into believing in the merits of war.  How could that happen?  Once they were comfortably enscounced in power, they systematically killed or imprisoned all dissenters.  The most noble segment of the population was wiped out.

This is what they do to generation after generation.   What will stop it?  People continue to be entranced and hypnotized by satan, thinking he is telling the truth, with the resulting inversion of good and evil.  The German population, with few exceptions, thought what they were doing was good.  By the time they realized it was not, it was too late.

Fifty million dead in five years.  God didn't do this.  Evil men under the influence of satan did it--  Evil, evil men exercising their free will in the service of satan.


33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


--Mat 23


"damnation" [of hell]

G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.


« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 09:47:50 AM by Molly »

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #80 on: November 19, 2008, 09:55:01 AM »
Dear SOTW,

My soul hurts, from reading the way you respond to others. Please, friend, remember that love is the most important gift we have.

Your brutal character attacks, diminish the love of Christ. We can disagree, yet, respect and love each other. I am sure you did not mean to come across so harshly, but your responses not only detract from you, but also your views. I am not saying this to hurt or embarrass you, but because you are my brother in christ and your words show such pain.

TS

Thanks for the concern. You know neither tone or body language and must rely on assumption for most of what you see being discussed and how it is being discussed. Trust me, I understand that what I say seems hard, but I am not diminishing the love of Christ.

Ephesians 5:5-7
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

Let me show you the words of Jesus, and tell me, did they diminish His words?

Matthew 18:6
If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

He just told those who cause these little ones who believe in Him to sin, that it was better they commit suicide! Would you find it better if I told them it is better they go kill themselves? Did Jesus's words diminish His love towards all mankind?

How about these:
"You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good?"
"You hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces."
"You hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as you are."
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of Gehenna?"
"You blind fools!"
"You blind guides!"
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

All words Jesus had to those who opposed him and though they preached freedom and confessed to know God, but knew not freedom and knew not God and were leading people astray. Jesus spoke abusively towards those who claimed to know the truth, than I ever have; but yet his brutal character attacks don't seem to be detracting from His message.

Did Jesus show respect to those whom He called hypocrites, snakes, blind, fools, liars and children of the devil?

How about these words?
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Then, we have the Apostle Paul,

"I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough."

or

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

So let us be truthful here, and let us get down to the point.

"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."

"Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus."

So, you see. My soul hurts when I see the little one's who believe in Christ be told that they have no responsibility concerning their deeds and words to God, others and themselves. My soul hurts because I see sin being treated as something just happens, and whatever will be will be. My soul hurts when I see people take a hold of that gospel which is not a gospel and run in what they thought was freedom only to find out it was a snare and trap.

How about the words of Peter?

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

So tormented seeker, let me ask you, with the limited amount of information you are receiving through text, without seeing the tone or the body language, what heart do you think I say these things that you think are brutal character attacks?

In Truth and Grace,
C

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.


« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 02:53:01 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #81 on: November 19, 2008, 10:11:43 AM »
Why would anyone--and I mean anyone--name a genocide The Holocaust?

That name has now become synonymous with genocide.

Does anyone know what it means?


Exodus 10:25
And Moses said, Thou must give us also sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice unto the LORD our God.

"burnt offerings"

H5930
עולה    עלה
‛ôlâh  ‛ôlâh
o-law', o-law'
Feminine active participle of H5927; a step or (collectively stairs, as ascending); usually a holocaust (as going up in smoke): - ascent, burnt offering (sacrifice), go up to. See also H5766.



A burnt offering?  A sacrifice?  Of human beings?  To what god?

Satan and his human minions howl with laughter every time that word is ignorantly used.

Sometimes he sadistically puts the truth in plain sight in the hopes that someone will be perceptive enough to see it and have their hair stand on end.  He loves to be admired for his subtlety--especially by his enemies.

Yes all death from genocide, war, and other premeditated devices of mass destruction are a holocaust--a sacrifice to a god that demands the blood of innocents.


Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2008, 03:46:07 PM »

Fifty million dead in five years.  God didn't do this.  Evil men under the influence of satan did it--  Evil, evil men exercising their free will in the service of satan.

Dear Molly, if the men were evil how could their wills have been free to be good? Did not Jesus say non are good?

Also, if these men were evil and were influenced by Satan, how could they have done otherwise seeing that Satan is so much more powerful than they?

Also, since God is everywhere and is all powerful and all knowing, and since so many did die and He did nothing to stop it, don't you think He must have willed it to happen?

And if He willed it to happen don't you think that since God is love that He is working all together for good?

They all would have died sooner or later anyway, right? But God is going to raise them from the dead and give them immortality and incorruption due to what Christ did. Do you think any of them are going to be upset at what happened to them from Hitler and those controlling him? I doubt it.

They all had wills. No one can deny that. Free? Naw. In bondage? Yep.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #83 on: November 19, 2008, 03:57:53 PM »
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

 36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


--Mat 12

Probably best for me to stay mute. :laughing7:

Yes, Molly, they will give an account. The word for account is logos or word. They will give a word. Giving an account concerning what words were said does not mean that they were responsible for what was said.

Remember when David gave the word to number Israel? That was a horrible sin.
David's heart smote him after the numbering was done because he thought he did it of his own will. (2 Sam.24:10)
Yet if we read further we find that Satan made him number Israel. (1 Chron.21:1)
Yet if we read further still will find that God made him number Israel. (2 Sam.24:1)

So God made Satan make David number Israel.

Yet David still had to give an account of his word but not because he was responsible.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #84 on: November 19, 2008, 04:09:36 PM »
How can it be that such a small group is responsible for the death of 50 million  people (WWII)?  This was not just Hitler, although he was the standard bearer for them.  It was not just his merry band of thugs--geobbels, himmler, speer, and so on, although they are the most famous of the group.  There is another group who financed these monsters whose names will never be mentioned by mainstream history, because the victors write the history, and no matter who won or who lost the war, these financiers would always be the real winners.


The issue here is the human condition.

Hitler is just a large manifestation of the smaller levels of this that we have all been guilty of.   I personally rejected this accusation of humanity for a time since, after all, I was never a part of something so large,  or was I???


When I was in high school I ran with a crowd that was able to get away with things that harmed others.  Maybe we didn't gas and cook people in ovens or keep them in starvation camps,  but, the mentality was the same and if the setting was just right, who knows.

People who simply make fun of someone else and truly mean it in a demeaning manner, whether it is to thier face or behind their back are no different and cannot justify their being better just because they can compare themselves to hitler in the history books.

This is why Jesus made sure to say that we do not have to physically murder to be a murderer.

Ever hear about 3rd wave?   A simple teachers experiment that scared even the teacher.  And some to this day deny they were ever sucked in to the mentality that manifested.



Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #85 on: November 19, 2008, 06:17:07 PM »

Fifty million dead in five years.  God didn't do this.  Evil men under the influence of satan did it--  Evil, evil men exercising their free will in the service of satan.

Dear Molly, if the men were evil how could their wills have been free to be good? Did not Jesus say non are good?

Also, if these men were evil and were influenced by Satan, how could they have done otherwise seeing that Satan is so much more powerful than they?

Also, since God is everywhere and is all powerful and all knowing, and since so many did die and He did nothing to stop it, don't you think He must have willed it to happen?

And if He willed it to happen don't you think that since God is love that He is working all together for good?

They all would have died sooner or later anyway, right? But God is going to raise them from the dead and give them immortality and incorruption due to what Christ did. Do you think any of them are going to be upset at what happened to them from Hitler and those controlling him? I doubt it.

They all had wills. No one can deny that. Free? Naw. In bondage? Yep.

Why would you make excuses for vicious sociopaths?   These men at the top were premeditated mass murderers.  They killed millions of people on purpose.  They make Ted Bundy look like Shirley Temple.  Do you get that?

How can you blame God for this?

The people in general were deceived and influenced by satan.  But the people at the top were satan himself.  Yes, they have free will.  They are making the choice to kill millions of people.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 06:19:45 PM by Molly »

Offline CHB

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2008, 06:18:37 PM »
Quote from: Tony N
Yet David still had to give an account of his word but not because he was responsible.

Hi Tony,

Maybe this is not in the right place but Tony's post got me to thinking.

What Tony said above reminded me of what my son ask about our will. He said, using your explaination above, "why does God cause us to do something so he can punish, or whip us, is that not wrong"?   The only answer I could think of was, "to teach us the difference between good and bad". What are your thoughts on this?  Willie, I know you have some good answers on this also.

Also, I was thinking about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I wonder if this tree isn't...grace..{good}...our will, or what is referred to as free will...{evil}? God said the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil.  

Free will is the worst possible belief there is. It takes away from the sovernity of God. It exalts man. It makes us feel we are the cause, reason, and in control of {good}>grace...and...{bad}>us. Our so called "free will"...{self} is what man will have to be separated from eventually.

Hope this made sense.

Hope I am able to get back on the forum to read what you have to say on this.

CHB

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2008, 06:39:51 PM »
Quote from: Tony N
Yet David still had to give an account of his word but not because he was responsible.

Hi Tony,

Maybe this is not in the right place but Tony's post got me to thinking.

What Tony said above reminded me of what my son ask about our will. He said, using your explaination above, "why does God cause us to do something so he can punish, or whip us, is that not wrong"?   The only answer I could think of was, "to teach us the difference between good and bad". What are your thoughts on this?  Willie, I know you have some good answers on this also.
CHB

Hi CHB,
Let us look at another free-will busting passage:

Rom 9:19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?
Rom 9:20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?

If man had free will then it would be impossible to lodge the complaint given above. If man had a free will then we would say we know why He is blaming . . . because we did not do the right thing based upon our own free wills. But since God is in control of us and actually makes us the way we are as vessels, the complaint is lodged, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"
It is because man needs to experience God's just judging in setting them right.

God made David count Israel yet He still blamed David.

Look at this verse:
Rev 17:17 "for God imparts to their hearts to form His opinion, and to form one opinion, and to give their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God shall be accomplished."

Oh the inhumanity of it all! Believers want to invest mankind with the God-defying free will. Yet the Scriptures are replete with the truth that man is controlled.

Yet God is going to justly judge those millions of people in verse 17 that He made them do what He wanted them to do. Because that is what they need.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2008, 07:29:18 PM »
What if this nature in us needs cleansing?  How does the cleansing come?  How do I remove the dirt and grime from my physical body?  Do I not cause myself to enter into the bath or shower and "let" the water soak into the grime and then wash it away?  Our nature is the grime . . it's the part of us that needs circumcized.  God sees this in every man . . .but in the Old Testament it was more visible because they were still carrying out the atonement process via animal sacrifice.  It took a the one with a beastly nature to offer the blood of a beast to obtain a temporary covering.  When Christ manifested in his mortal body, one part of the beast was replaced by Christ.

yet the other part of the beast remains and granted, I'm not one to believe that we still are required the same things that were required of men before the "once and for all" sacrifice, but our spiritual circumcision is more of a process than an instantaneous experience.  My spirit is resurrected within me instantaneously, but my soul is still very beastly and requires certain circumstances to be experienced so the cleansing process can be applied to both spirit "and" soul.

For me, that is what UR is very much all about.  As we go through life, we go through scrubbings orchestrated by God to allow us to more effectively manifest his light in others as well as come into a deeper intimacy with him overall.  Those that didn't accept Christ in this vapor of time . .still have to go through the refining process . . .if not more so because through Christ, we "become" refined in this life once we accepted him into our lives.  But without Christ, the refining is still required after we die if we expect to still be able to enter wholly into the kingdom.  Which for me is where the lake of fire comes in . . .it's to purge out that which "could" have been voluntarily done through accepting Christ, but now, involuntarily, but still very much necessary that we have to go through this lake of cleansing (which is also Christ . ."No man can come to the Father except through me . . .")

Bottom line, we all need the cleansing . . .and while in this life, God exposes us to situations that do just that.  He causes us to be exposed to a situation that will expose our inner nature . . .which then . . . causes us to stumble and then, gives him the opportunity to address that issue which came to the surface of our nature.  And in the end, that which tripped us up can be dealt with and not be an issue ever again.  David only did that one time . . .he only counted the people one time . . .he only caved to this naked, bathing woman one time . . .

We are Egypt.  Within us is God's chosen nature (Israel).  But that nature has become enslaved to our Egypt nature.  So . . .God sends his message (a Moses) to our Egypt that begins methodically tearing down every form of idolatry in us (plagues) . . .by overwhelming us with the very thing we worship the most . . .different forms, same results.  Frogs, flies, locusts, crops, even darkness . . .until finally, the Egyptian law (#10) within us is broken and releases the nature we've held captive in us since our natural birth.  After which, God then comes and dwells in our midst.  But the cleansing must come in order for the dwelling to take place.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2008, 07:51:43 PM »
The words of Traudl Junge, Hitler's private secretary, describing events in Hitler's bunker in the last hours of the war. She hears a shot downstairs.  Hitler has committed suicide.


I knew that was the shot that made an end with Hitler and his National Socialist Era and probably also of us all.  I sat a little shocked and silent and suddenly I saw --my head was empty, I couldn't feel anything at this moment.  Then I saw one of the adjutants coming upstairs and he said, 'Now I have fulfilled the last order.  The Fuhrer is dead.  I have burned his body.'  Then he sat down by my side and his face was ash grey.

Suddenly we were forced to decide for ourselves.   We had every step until now ordered by Hitler, and suddenly we were given our own lives back.  But, there was no concept for this life. We had our own poison; that was the only fixed step we had to do now.  Suddenly I felt I must go out of this bunker, of this mousetrap, and go out in the fresh air. 

And, then, happened something very strange for me.  Suddenly I saw the war in all its appearance.  There lay dead soldiers, and there are Russians, and there were refugees, and horses, and burning houses, and it was suddenly such a concentrated picture of war and damage and defeat that I see it today like it was.  I must honestly confess that sometimes I think that what I am telling you is the story of another girl.  I feel so totally strange that it always involves me again when I'm telling things of this time. 

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2008, 08:56:56 PM »

Suddenly we were forced to decide for ourselves.   We had every step until now ordered by Hitler, and suddenly we were given our own lives back. 

Pro 21:1 "Like rillets of water is the king's heart in the hand of Yahweh; Wherever He inclines, He turns it aside."

When a farmer would irrigate his field he would walk along and all he had to do was to kick a little dirt to get a rillet of water to go down a row of planted seeds or he could kick a little dirt to stop the rillet of water from flowing down that row.

God is the same way with the worlds leaders.

God set Hitler into that place of leadership and for good purpose just as he did Nero in Paul's day:

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except under God. Now those which are, have been set under God,

It is interesting how people who want us to believe in free will make God unwilling and unable to take responsibility and accountability to His words and actions.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #91 on: November 19, 2008, 09:06:25 PM »
Quote
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except under God. Now those which are, have been set under God,

Let's read this in context, shall we?


1Obey the rulers who have authority over you. Only God can give authority to anyone, and he puts these rulers in their places of power. 2People who oppose the authorities are opposing what God has done, and they will be punished. 3Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4After all, they are God's servants, and it is their duty to help you.

   If you do something wrong, you ought to be afraid, because these rulers have the right to punish you. They are God's servants who punish criminals to show how angry God is. 5But you should obey the rulers because you know it is the right thing to do, and not just because of God's anger.


--Rom 13


So does that mean if my Fuhrer orders me to gather up people and put them into extermination camps I should do that because it is ordained by God?   Does that mean if I am ordered to kill children and old people, I should do that?


This says that Rulers are only a threat to evil people, not to good people.  Does this mean that all those people who died in the camps are the evil ones?  And the ones that killed them are the good ones because they followed orders of their leaders?

How insane shall we get here?

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2008, 09:19:45 PM »
Quote
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except under God. Now those which are, have been set under God,

Let's read this in context, shall we?


1Obey the rulers who have authority over you. Only God can give authority to anyone, and he puts these rulers in their places of power. 2People who oppose the authorities are opposing what God has done, and they will be punished. 3Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4After all, they are God's servants, and it is their duty to help you.

   If you do something wrong, you ought to be afraid, because these rulers have the right to punish you. They are God's servants who punish criminals to show how angry God is. 5But you should obey the rulers because you know it is the right thing to do, and not just because of God's anger.


--Rom 13


So does that mean if my Fuhrer orders me to gather up people and put them into extermination camps I should do that because it is ordained by God?   Does that mean if I am ordered to kill children and old people, I should do that?


This says that Rulers are only a threat to evil people, not to good people.  Does this mean that all those people who died in the camps are the evil ones?  And the ones that killed them are the good ones because they followed orders of their leaders?

How insane shall we get here?

It says "there is no authority except under God. Now those which are, have been set under God." Paul wrote that in the day when the authorities were having Christians murdered enmasse just as the Furher did the Jews not long ago.

Besides, Molly, you are confusing superior authorities with Magistrates. Magistrates, which are under the authority of the superior authorities, "are not a fear to the good act, but to the evil":

Rom 13:1-7  Let every soul be subject to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except under God. Now those which are, have been set under God,  (2)  so that he who is resisting an authority has withstood God's mandate. Now those who have withstood, will be getting judgment for themselves,  (3)  for magistrates are not a fear to the good act, but to the evil. Now you do not want to be fearing the authority. Do good, and you will be having applause from it."  (4)  For it is God's servant for your good. Now if you should be doing evil, fear, for not feignedly is it wearing the sword. For it is God's servant, an avenger for indignation to him who is committing evil."  (5)  Wherefore it is necessary to be subject, not only because of indignation, but also because of conscience."  (6)  For therefore you are settling taxes also, for they are God's ministers, perpetuated for this self-same thing."  (7)  Render to all their dues, to whom tax, tax, to whom tribute, tribute, to whom fear, fear, to whom honor, honor."

Hitler was a superior authority set in that position by God.
The magistrates which were under him were a fear to the evil.

Get it?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2008, 10:03:52 PM »
Quote
Hitler was a superior authority set in that position by God.
The magistrates which were under him were a fear to the evil.

Get it?

No I don't get it.  Here is the really scary thought:  it is a very fine line between salvation and total insanity.

When Jesus says the road is narrow, he means it.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 10:06:07 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2008, 10:09:50 PM »
Heinrich Himmler's speech to the SS, delivered in Poland in October, 1943




I also want to mention a very difficult subject before you here, completely openly.  It should be discussed amongst us, and yet, nevertheless, we will never speak about it in public.

Just as we did not hesitate on June 30 to carry out our duty, as ordered, and stand comrades who had failed against the wall and shoot them.  About which we have never spoken, and never will speak.

That was, thank God, a kind of tact natural to us, a foregone conclusion of that tact, that we have never conversed about it amongst ourselves, never spoken about it.  Everyone shuddered, and everyone was clear that the next time,  he would do the same thing again, if it were commanded and necessary.

I am talking about the "Jewish evacuation":  the extermination of the Jewish people.

It is one of those things that is easily said, "The Jewish people is being exterminated," every Party member will tell you, "perfectly clear, it's part of our plans, we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating them,. ha!, a small matter."

And then along they all come, all the 80 million upright Germans, and each one has his decent Jew.  They say: all the others are swine, but here is a first-class Jew.  And none of them has seen it, has endured it.  Most of you will know what it means when 100 bodies lie together, when there are 500, or when there are 1000.

And to have seen this through, and--with the exception of human weaknesses--to have remained decent, has made us hard and is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned.

Because we know how difficult things would be, if today in every city during the bomb attacks, the burdens of war and the privations, we still had Jews as secret saboteurs,agitators, and instigators.  We would probably be at the same stage as 1916-17, if the Jews still resided in the body of the German people.

We have taken away the riches that they had, and I have given a strict order, which Obergruppenfuhrer Pohl has carried out, we have delivered these riches completely to the Reich, to the State.  We have taken nothing from them for ourselves.  A few, who have offended against this, will be [judged] in accordance with an order, that I gave at the beginning:  He who takes even one Mark of this is a dead man.

A number of SS men have offended against this order.  There are not very many, and they will be dead men--WITHOUT MERCY!  We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who would kill us.  But we do not have the right to enrich ourselves with even one fur, with one Mark, with one cigarette, with one watch, with anything.  That we do not have.  Because at the end of this, we don't want, because we exterminated the bacillus, to become sick and die from the same bacillus.

I will never see it happen that even one bit of putrefaction comes in contact with us, or takes root in us.  On the contrary, where it might try to take root, we will burn it out together.  But altogether we can say:  We have carried out this most difficult task for the love of our people. And we have taken on no defect within us, in our soul, or in our character.



19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

--John 3






Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #95 on: November 19, 2008, 10:15:46 PM »
Quote
Hitler was a superior authority set in that position by God.
The magistrates which were under him were a fear to the evil.

Get it?

No I don't get it.  Here is the really scary thought:  it is a very fine line between salvation and total insanity.

When Jesus says the road is narrow, he means it.
Dear Molly,
I'm not sure I understand what "salvation and total insanity" has to do with God setting authorities over the people of the world.

The road is narrow only as it pertains to the audience in Jesus' day.

"God's calling of the people of Israel is clearly in association with the act of repentance and works of righteousness. Such acts are required in order that they might be worthy to enter through that "cramped gate and narrowed way into life" (Matt.7:14) in the kingdom of the heavens. In that calling, the Lord will declare to all who fail to do the preceptive will of the Father (cf Matt.7:21; Rom.2:18), "`Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness'" (Matt.7:23). Yet under the grace inherent in Paul's evangel, "where sin increases, grace superexceeds" so that the emphasis is wholly on Grace reigning (Rom.5:20,21). It is necessary for us, undeserving as we are, to be shown grace, for in the oncoming eons God intends to display in us "the transcendent riches of His grace" (Eph.2:7). We could not be used in such a display if our eonian life were a matter of qualification. As to eonian life, our sins can but commend His marvelous grace, notwithstanding the loss they are to us at present and at the dais of Christ." (James Coram, Unsearchable Riches, vol.74, pg.75).
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #96 on: November 19, 2008, 10:37:39 PM »
Quote
Hitler was a superior authority set in that position by God.
The magistrates which were under him were a fear to the evil.

Get it?

No I don't get it.  Here is the really scary thought:  it is a very fine line between salvation and total insanity.

When Jesus says the road is narrow, he means it.
Dear Molly,
I'm not sure I understand what "salvation and total insanity" has to do with God setting authorities over the people of the world.



I am saying these people considered themselves Christians, at least in public.

Now, despite the fact that you maintain they were just programmed by God to do what they did because there is no free will, I would like you to look at it objectively for a minute, and, tell me, where did they make their mistake?  How did their thinking get so distorted?

Because Heinrich Himmler--the mass murderer--is presenting himself as the good guy, without character defect or blemish because he refuses to steal a Mark from the people he so brutally murders for his own personal gain.  So you tell me, what is wrong with this picture? What went wrong? And what is wrong with the people who swallowed it hook, line, and sinker?

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2008, 01:06:29 AM »
I've been looking for something I came across while searching the web before voting.  It had to do with early American understanding of the Revolution and the neccesity of resisting tyrants.  The author should be known to those better acquainted with that period of history.  Maybe they could locate something.

A point from what I read points out that (in Romans) lawful authority is a threat to evildoers.  Authority that opresses those who would do good is therefore to be resisted.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 01:18:39 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline CHB

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2008, 01:23:20 AM »

Hmmmm, {Law and grace, evil and good.} {man and Christ, free will and no free will.} Flesh and spirit}.  The only thing left standing will be spirit. Law, evil, man,...{as in flesh}, free will, will be gone.  Law and grace was the tree of good and evil. Free will is like a law, a work. It takes works to have free will.

As to why it is so hard for some to believe all go to heaven?  Most feel like Molly, they don't want to share salvation with people like Hitler, Bundy, Daumer.  Tell me, are we more righteous than they? If so, why? Isn't it God that makes us righteous and not ourselves?

CHB

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2008, 01:28:19 AM »
I found what I was looking for.  Here it is in part (omitting the rest concerning resisting King George in particular.)  It may be found at the lexrex site;
http://www.lexrex.com/informed/otherdocuments/sermons/mayhew.htm
I also have to put it into 2 posts due to it's size.

"A Discourse Concerning Unlimited Submission and Non-Resistance to the Higher Powers" - Jonathan Mayhew

Harvard graduate and Congregationalist minister, Jonathan Mayhew (1720-1766) served the West Church in Boston from his ordination in 1747 until his death. The Discourse was first published in Boston in 1750.

. . . Let us now trace the apostle's reasoning in favor of submission to the higher powers, a little more particularly and exactly. For by this it will appear, on one hand, how good and conclusive it is, for submission to those rulers who exercise their power in a proper manner: And, on the other, how weak and trifling and unconnected it is, if it be supposed to be meant by the apostle to show the obligation and duty of obedience to tyrannical, oppressive rulers in common with others of a different character.

The apostle enters upon his subject thus--Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers; for there is no power but of God: the powers that be, are ordained of God. Here he urges the duty of obedience from this topic of argument, that civil rulers, as they are supposed to fulfill the pleasure of God, are the ordinance of God. But how is this an argument for obedience to such rulers as do not perform the pleasure of God, by doing good; but the pleasure of the devil, by doing evil; and such as are not, therefore, God's ministers, but the devil's! Whosoever, therefore, resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God; and they that resist, shall receive to themselves damnation. Here the apostle argues, that those who resist a reasonable and just authority, which is agreeable to the will of God, do really resist the will of God himself; and will, therefore, be punished by him. But how does this prove, that those who resist a lawless, unreasonable power, which is contrary to the will of God, do therein resist the will and ordinance of God? Is resisting those who resist God's will, the same thing with resisting God? Or shall those who do so, receive to themselves damnation! For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good; and thou shalt have praise of the same. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. Here the apostle argues more explicitly than he had before done, for revering, and submitting to, magistracy, from this consideration, that such as really performed the duty of magistrates, would be enemies only to the evil actions of men, and would befriend and encourage the good: and so be a common blessing to society. But how is this an argument, that we must honor, and submit to, such magistrates as are not enemies to the evil actions of men; but to the good: and such as are not a common blessing, but a common curse, to society! But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid: For he is the minister of God, a revenger, to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. Here the apostle argues from the nature and end of magistracy, that such as did evil, (and such only) had reason to be afraid of the higher powers; it being part of their office to punish evildoers, no less than to defend and encourage such as do well. But if magistrates are unrighteous; if they are respecters of persons; if they are partial in their administration of justice; then those who do well have as much reason to be afraid, as those that do evil: there can be no safety for the good, nor any peculiar ground of terror to the unruly and injurious. So that, in this case, the main end of civil government will be frustrated. And what reason is there for submitting to that government, which does by no means answer the design of government? Wherefore ye must needs be subject not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. Here the apostle argues the duty of a cheerful and conscientious submission to civil government, from the nature and end of magistracy as he had before laid it down, i.e. as the design of it was to punish evildoers, and to support and encourage such as do well; and as it must, if so exercised, be agreeable to the will of God. But how does what he here says, prove the duty of a cheerful and conscientious subjection to those who forfeit the character of rulers? to those who encourage the bad, and discourage the good? The argument here used no more proves it to be a sin to resist such rulers, than it does, to resist the devil, that he may flee from us. For one is as truly the minister of God as the other. For, for this cause pay you tribute also; for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Here the apostle argues the duty of paying taxes, from this consideration, that those who perform the duty of rulers, are continually attending upon the public welfare. But how does this argument conclude for paying taxes to such princes as are continually endeavoring to ruin the public? And especially when such payment would facilitate and promote this wicked design! Render therefore to all their dues; tribute, to whom tribute is due; custom, to whom custom; fear, to whom fear; honor, to whom honor. Here the apostle sums up what he had been saying concerning the duty of subjects to rulers. And his argument stands thus--"Since magistrates who execute their office well, are common benefactors to society; and may, in that respect, be properly stiled the ministers and ordinance of God; and since they are constantly employed in the service of the public; it becomes you to pay them tribute and custom; and to reverence, honor, and submit to, them in the execution of their respective offices." This is apparently good reasoning. But does this argument conclude for the duty of paying tribute, custom, reverence, honor and obedience, to such persons as (although they bear the title of rulers) use all their power to hurt and injure the public? such as are not God's ministers, but satan's? such as do not take care of, and attend upon, the public interest, but their own, to the ruin of the public? that is, in short, to such as have no natural and just claim at all to tribute, custom, reverence, honor and obedience? It is to be hoped that those who have any regard to the apostle's character as an inspired writer, or even as a man of common understanding, will not represent him as reasoning in such a loose incoherent manner; and drawing conclusions which have not the least relation to his premises. For what can be more absurd than an argument thus framed? "Rulers are, by their office, bound to consult the public welfare and the good of society: therefore you are bound to pay them tribute, to honor, and to submit to them, even when they destroy the public welfare, and are a common pest to society, by acting in direct contradiction to the nature and end of their office."

Thus, upon a careful review of the apostle's reasoning in this passage, it appears that his arguments to enforce submission, are of such a nature, as to conclude only in favor of submission to such rulers as he himself describes; i.e., such as rule for the good of society, which is the only end of their institution. Common tyrants, and public oppressors, are not intitled to obedience from their subjects, by virtue of any thing here laid down by the inspired apostle.

I now add, farther, that the apostle's argument is so far from proving it to be the duty of people to obey, and submit to, such rulers as act in contradiction to the public good, and so to the design of their office, that it proves the direct contrary. For, please to observe, that if the end of all civil government, be the good of society; if this be the thing that is aimed at in constituting civil rulers; and if the motive and argument for submission to government, be taken from the apparent usefulness of civil authority; it follows, that when no such good end can be answered by submission, there remains no argument or motive to enforce it; if instead of this good* end's being brought about by submission, a contrary end is brought about, and the ruin and misery of society effected by it, here is a plain and positive reason against submission in all such cases, should they ever happen. And therefore, in such cases, a regard to the public welfare, ought to make us withhold from our rulers, that obedience and subjection which it would, otherwise, be our duty to render to them. If it be our duty, for example, to obey our king, merely for this reason, that he rules for the public welfare, (which is the only argument the apostle makes use of) it follows, by a parity of reason, that when he turns tyrant, and makes his subjects his prey to devour and to destroy, instead of his charge to defend and cherish, we are bound to throw off our allegiance to him, and to resist; and that according to the tenor of the apostle's argument in this passage. Not to discontinue our allegiance, in this case, would be to join with the sovereign in promoting the slavery and misery of that society, the welfare of which, we ourselves, as well as our sovereign, are indispensably obliged to secure and promote, as far as in us lies. It is true the apostle puts no case of such a tyrannical prince; but by his grounding his argument for submission wholly upon the good of civil society; it is plain he implicitly authorizes, and even requires us to make resistance, whenever this shall be necessary to the public safety and happiness. Let me make use of this easy and familiar similitude to illustrate the point in hand--Suppose God requires a family of children, to obey their father and not to resist him; and enforces his command with this argument; that the superintendence and care and authority of a just and kind parent, will contribute to the happiness of the whole family; so that they ought to obey him for their own sakes more than for his: Suppose this parent at length runs distracted, and attempts, in his mad fit, to cut all his children's throats: Now, in this case, is not the reason before assigned, why these children should obey their parent while he continued of a sound mind, namely, their common good, a reason equally conclusive for disobeying and resisting him, since he is become delirious, and attempts their ruin? It makes no alteration in the argument, whether this parent, properly speaking, loses his reason; or does, while he retains his understanding, that which is as fatal in its consequences, as any thing he could do, were he really deprived of it. This similitude needs no formal application.

* This does not intend, their acting so in a few particular instances, which the best of rulers may do through mistake, &c. but their acting so habitually; and in a manner which plainly shows, that they aim at making themselves great, by the ruin of their subjects.

But it ought to be remembered, that if the duty of universal obedience and nonresistance to our king or prince, can be argued from this passage, the same unlimited submission under a republican, or any other form of government; and even to all the subordinate powers in any particular state, can be proved by it as well: which is more than those who alledge it for the mentioned purpose, would be willing should be inferred from it. So that this passage does not answer their purpose; but really overthrows and confutes it. This matter deserves to be more particularly considered.--The advocates for unlimited submission and passive obedience, do, if I mistake not, always speak with reference to kingly or monarchical government, as distinguished from all other forms; and, with reference to submitting to the will of the king, in distinction from all subordinate officers, acting beyond their commission, and the authority which they have received from the crown. It is not pretended that any person besides kings, have a divine right to do what they please, so that no one may resist them, without incurring the guilt of factiousness and rebellion. If any other supreme powers oppress the people, it is generally allowed, that the people may get redress, by resistance, if other methods prove ineffectual. And if any officers in a kingly government, go beyond the limits of that power which they have derived from the crown, (the supposed original source of all power and authority in the state) and attempt, illegally, to take away the properties and lives of their fellow subjects, they may be forcibly resisted, at least till application can be made to the crown. But as to the sovereign himself, he may not be resisted in any case; nor any of his officers, while they confine themselves within the bounds which he has prescribed to them. This is, I think, a true sketch of the principles of those who defend the doctrine of passive obedience and nonresistance. Now there is nothing in Scripture which supports this scheme of political principles. As to the passage under consideration, the apostle here speaks of civil rulers in general; of all persons in common, vested with authority for the good of society, without any particular reference to one form of government, more than to another; or to the supreme power in any particular state, more than to subordinate powers. The apostle does not concern himself with the different forms of government.** This he supposes left entirely to human prudence and discretion. Now the consequence of this is, that unlimited and passive obedience, is no more enjoined in this passage, under monarchical government; or to the supreme power in any state, than under all other species of government, which answer the end of government; or, to all the subordinate degrees of civil authority, from the highest to the lowest. Those, therefore, who would from this passage infer the guilt of resisting kings, in all cases whatever, though acting ever so contrary to the design of their office, must, if they will be consistent, go much farther, and infer from it the guilt of resistance under all other forms of government; and of resisting any petty officer in the state, tho' acting beyond his commission, in the most arbitrary, illegal manner possible. The argument holds equally strong in both cases. All civil rulers, as such, are the ordinance and ministers of God; and they are all, by the nature of their office, and in their respective spheres and stations, bound to consult the public welfare. With the same reason therefore, that any deny unlimited and passive obedience to be here enjoined under a republic or aristocracy, or any other established form of civil government; or to subordinate powers, acting in an illegal and oppressive manner; (with the same reason) others may deny, that such obedience is enjoined to a king or monarch, or any civil power whatever. For the apostle says nothing that is peculiar to kings; what he says, extends equally to all other persons whatever, vested with any civil office. They are all, in exactly the same sense, the ordinance of God; and the ministers of God; and obedience is equally enjoined to be paid to them all. For, as the apostle expresses it, there is NO POWER but of God: And we are required to render to ALL their DUES; and not MORE than their DUES. And what these dues are, and to whom they are to be rendered, the apostle sayeth not; but leaves to the reason and consciences of men to determine.

** The essence of government (I mean good government; and this is the only government which the apostle treats of in this passage) consists in the making and executing of good laws--laws attempered to the common felicity of the governed. And if this be, in fact, done, it is evidently, in it self, a thing of no consequence at all, what the particular form of government is;--whether the legislative and executive power be lodged in one and the same person, or in different persons;--whether in one person, whom we call an absolute monarch;--whether in a few, so as to constitute an aristocracy;--whether in many, so as to constitute a republic; or whether in three co-ordinate branches, in such manner as to make the government partake something of each of these forms; and to be, at the same time, essentially different from them all. If the end be attained, it is enough. But no form of government seems to be so unlikely to accomplish this end, as absolute monarchy--Nor is there any one that has so little pretence to a divine original, unless it be in this sense, that God first introduced it into, and thereby overturned, the common wealth of Israel, as a curse upon that people for their folly and wickedness, particularly in desiring such a government. (See I Sam. viii. chap.) Just so God, before, sent Quails amongst them, as a plague, and a curse, and not as a blessing. Numb. chap. xi.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!