Author Topic: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?  (Read 44529 times)

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Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2008, 10:55:33 PM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

The magnet analogy doesn't take into consideration that a piece of steel cannot object to being drawn, man does and his resistance is what makes the difference between a straight line to the magnet or one that takes much longer and is much more difficult.

If a piece of steel goes off the course that the pull of the magnet is pulling it,  it could slam into another object.   While the piece of steel doesn't know a thing, a human being will experience the pain of slamming into something as it resists the pull of the magnet.

Sorry Paul, I do not agree with you... For the Scripture states: 

Rom 9:19  thou wilt say then unto me, why doth He yet find fault?  For ...WHO... hath ...RESISTED... His will?

Part of the Divine WILL and COMPLETION/PERFECTION, is that suffering be experienced... as is noted of our Savior, CHRIST:... and that suffering is ORDAINED to be so by GOD, which IS NOT a matter of RESISTANCE enacted by the "will" of man...  It is MAN following the NATURE which GOD created IN HIM... and said NATURE is ordained to be so, in order to UNVEIL the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL to the Children of the Most High...

Heb 2:10  for it BECAME Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation PERFECT [complete] THROUGH SUFFERINGS.

Ultimatly the magnet wins, of course.   But without the knowledge that going off course of the pull of the magnet causes pain, there is no reason to warn and teach to not resist in the first place.

The potter moulds the clay, sure, but the analogy is telling us who is ultimatly in control.  Other verses tell us that while the potter is the master,  the clay can cause itself much pain when it resists being formed.

Again the molding is DONE by the POTTER... and in the MOLDING PROCESS, is the CLAY marred IN THE HAND of the POTTER (Jer 18:4)... If you know anything about CLAY, it of itself, does not resist KNOWLEDGEABLY (by its "will"), but BY it's NATURE... which NATURE was CREATED and INSERTED within it, ...by the POTTER...  :dontknow:

We can object, but we are going to be made into his image and we can take the road of the narrow gate, or the road of destruction to get there.

Our "ROAD", is determined by YHVH Paul...

Jer 10:23  O YHVH, I ...KNOW... that the WAY [ROAD] of MAN, is ...NOT... IN... himself, that walketh [down said "road"] to DIRECT his steps [taken on that road]

Pro 20:24  Mans GOINGS [road traveled] are ...OF... YHVH, ...HOW CAN a man then UNDERSTAND [hasn't a CLUE about] his own WAY [road traveled]

Pro 16:9 ...a man's heart deviseth [schemes] his WAY [road traveled], but YHVH ...DIRECTETH his STEPS [on that road]

MEN resist according to their NATURE, which GOD has CREATED in them, and ORDAINED to be enacted until GOD makes a CHANGE in the individual... in either state, NATURAL or SPIRITUAL, man is following the course GOD places before him, which is WHY He is KNOWN as ALMIGHTY, and WHY ...ALL POWER... emerges from Him... (Rom 13:1)

The bible also talks along the lines of what Molly suggested.  The carnal mind is emnity to God and is unable to be subject to the law of God.  God does draw, but there is an aspect of our resistance of our own will that comes into play as well.

Once again, missing a few details bro...  :2c:

Our "resistance" is part of our NATURE Paul... that NATURE was CREATED by God to be the POLARITY which enacts our "NEGATIVE magnetic" activity by NATURE to be IN OPPOSITION to Him and His POSTIVE state...

(Rom 8:20)  The Creation was MADE subject to VANITY [in which is encompassed disobedience] ...NOT Willingly... but by REASON of HIM who hath SUBJECTED the same in hope...

It is GOD's doing that we resist... which is WHY, HE does the DRAWING...  When He DRAWS a man to His Son... there is no resistance in that portion that is being drawn...

Just as a jar being filled... is not FULL all at once... but in the process of the pouring, achieves that FILLING according to the will and timing of the "POURER"... the Jar at one point or another is partially empty, which said portion of emptiness [unknowingly but BY the NATURE of "emptiness"] is RESISTING (fullness) that which is destined to be eliminated...

The CREATOR is MAKING us in and by a process... some of that process is MARRING/SUFFERING, and some of that process is the SHAPING of FREEDOM in us, to be as HE IS...

The WORD of GOD... MAKES [not "sets"] you FREE... (John 8:32-26) FREEDOM is a CREATION of GOD which, within the process of suffering, arrives in its finality at and IN HIS IMAGE... which is FREE indeed!

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2008, 11:32:34 PM »
willieH: Howdy brother M... :hithere:

Free will, not expressed as self determination, but as self motivation in response to the call of the Gospel is never set aside by a single page of the New Testament[/b].

I dont agree bro...  SOVEREIGNTY is found controlling this whole scenario, if one looks closer:

Rom 9:11-12  For being NOT YET BORN, neither having done ANYTHING GOOD or EVIL, that the PURPOSE of GOD ...according to ELECTION... might stand, NOT of WORKS, but of HIM that CALLETH...  It was SAID unto her: the ELDER shall SERVE the YOUNGER...

Where is "FREE WILL" or "SELF DETERMINATION" or "SELF MOTIVATION", or whatever "title" one seeks to attach to the will of man, found in this passage of the NT?  :dontknow:
willieH    :handshake:

WillieH, I am home sick today. But you know what? After reading what you wrote above, I rejoice in God to see that YOU GET IT!

Thank you God for making my day!

Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2008, 11:40:13 PM »

I don't quite understand why you always stop here--if you mean to stop here, or if you are just making a point of stopping here.  Because it doesn't stop here.  The free will is found in Christ.


John 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Dear Molly,
The above verse begs the question: Free from what?
The context of John 8:36 is not about free will but about knowing the truth and knowing that truth will make them free. Free from what? How about freedom from bondage to ignorance?

Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

If man has free will then he is not responsible for nothing caused him to do what he did. He just did it.
If man does not have free will, if his will is controlled by God, then again, man is not responsible for he was cause to do what he did outside of his ability to thwart that cause.

No where in the Bible is it ever said that man is responsible.

Even God does not have free will. I know that sounds rather shocking. But God is Love. If you read the Corinthian love chapter you will see what God is. God cannot lie. He does not have that freedom. God cannot really hate His enemy.

Shocking, eh?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2008, 11:58:36 PM »
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

 36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


--Mat 12




Probably best for me to stay mute. :laughing7:





Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2008, 12:00:19 AM »
Quote from: Molly
....this idea that we cannot know God unless he somehow singles us out and drops an anvil on our heads to get our attention.

That idea is not supported in any biblical or spiritual promise or foundation. It is the view of men and women who are unwilling and unable to take responsibility and accountability to their words and actions. It is sad, really, the guilt they feel and the condemnation they have endured whether truthfully or falsely, has seared their consciousness. They reject the reality that they are responsible and accountable for everything they did in their life; it is so heavy they are not willing to accept it. They hope instead, that they are not in need of any repentance of the actions and words they took, believing either that it was in fact for greater good that God created them to do, or that they are excused because the actions and words they took were done because they were decieved or ignorant in the first place.

For whatever reason people hold this view, there are two motivating factors: 1) Pride  and 2) Fear. They will deny it of course, since they have already come to the point where they do not find value in repentance in the first place.

Pride prevents them to humility and accept that they themselves indeed were the perpetraters of evil whether purposed or not; nor will they accept that others might actually be better than them in this life because the actions they took. Fear prevents them from accepting the consequences of their evil committed not realizing that this fear snowballs the situation.

Both pride and fear prevents them from actually doing the right thing, and it prevents them the understanding that there was anything they could do. They know not to blame God for why He created mankind this way, some who choose righteousness and live righteous lives, and others choose evil and live evil lives but that choice is not from some predestined script, but created them with the ability to make a choice between obedience and disobedience; good and evil, love and hate, and life and death. That pride and fear prevents them from seeing that although they lived in disobedience, evil, hate, and death, that repentance would turn disobedience into obedience, evil into good, hate into love and death into life. Repentance is the only answer to a life of sin, repent and live.

It is my recommendation, Molly, that you ignore those who deny responsibility and accountability because they don't care about anyone but themselves.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 12:02:29 AM by SOtW »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2008, 12:20:07 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Pro 16:9 ...a man's heart deviseth [schemes] his WAY [road traveled], but YHVH ...DIRECTETH his STEPS [on that road]


God is not the one who forces my will to scheme, and here we have scripture saying I will indeed scheme,  so who is at liberty to scheme?   

I have the liberty to Scheme and I have the liberty to Resist.   

Why it asks the question "Who hath resisted" is it is telling us how futile it is to resist.  It is NOT saying that we do not have the freedom to resist,  if we do not have the freedom to resist, then no one would resist.

It is also a statement helping us understand why we are not to judge one another.  No matter who we see resisting, in the end it will be futile for them to do so, but there is liberty to resist.

God will drag me to where he wants me despite my liberty to scheme and resist or I have no will at all which to suggest that is unscriptural due to this verse alone.

My wife and I see proverbs 16:9 as a focal point for our marriage,  we think up all kinds of things, but God works it out to his liking and not ours.   But God does not prevent us from making choices that we might see as something we should not have done later.   But then we see that God did not let us fall,  but taught us.   One might say that he taught us that way and wanted us to learn that way, but others learn by making a wiser choice concerning some of the same things.   There is no reason but the planning for the liberty he gives us so that his will remains complete.   That is the spiritual nature of what me and my wife know to be true in our marriage, if you see it different, that is fine with me, I have nothing to prove, only to challenge and share.

I do not have the ability or reason or power to resist Gods boundaries,  I do have the liberty of will to choose my actions based upon the causes within my life that will set those choices before me. 

I could have chosen to make personal remarks towards you in this letter and I did not.  I have the liberty in my will to do one or the other.







Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2008, 12:29:20 AM »
The man cannot be matured in Christ, taking his place as immortal co-inheritor, until --22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil--he is like God, knowing good and evil, and like Christ, always making the choice for righteousness.


3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

--Psa 23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2008, 12:38:05 AM »

I don't quite understand why you always stop here--if you mean to stop here, or if you are just making a point of stopping here.  Because it doesn't stop here.  The free will is found in Christ.


John 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Dear Molly,
The above verse begs the question: Free from what?
The context of John 8:36 is not about free will but about knowing the truth and knowing that truth will make them free. Free from what? How about freedom from bondage to ignorance?

Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

If man has free will then he is not responsible for nothing caused him to do what he did. He just did it.
If man does not have free will, if his will is controlled by God, then again, man is not responsible for he was cause to do what he did outside of his ability to thwart that cause.

No where in the Bible is it ever said that man is responsible.

Even God does not have free will. I know that sounds rather shocking. But God is Love. If you read the Corinthian love chapter you will see what God is. God cannot lie. He does not have that freedom. God cannot really hate His enemy.

Shocking, eh?

First, question was free from what . . .I'd say the power of sin . . .and the law.  These passages that are used by the church to keep us in control of our freedoms by emphasizing the consequences of those that do not adhere to these laws are based more on control than love.  Not the verses, but the people enforcing them.  Paul said that before the law was, men were free.  But it was the law that pointed out they have fallen short.  God didn't judge them, the law did.  

I do not expect my neighbor to live in his house abiding by my house rules.  I don't expect nonbelievers to adhere to rules they have no knowledge of, and especically no relationship with God either.  To be free from the power of sin and the law is all about restoring order in us through Christ.  You can do whatever you please . . .Paul states it himself.  It's just that not all things are beneficial . .they're not healthy.  So I can walking according to my head, but that's what's got me bound in the first place.  Or I can walk according to my heart which is the only way to enter into the freedom . . .it's a spiritual experience, not so much an emotional one.  Emotions may manifest through the experience, but it doesn't derive from them.

If I'm in Christ, then the things charged against me are covered by him.  That's what grace is.  Being saved has it's perks.  You are no longer required to pay the cost for your sin.  There are of course consequences in your natural life for making bad choices, but when it comes to your righteousness, bad decisions or no, the blood is just that powerful to cover all of it the second you turn the reigns in your spirit over to Christ.  

We want immediate results and if we don't see them, we judge you and question your salvation.  God does not.  He never looks at me at current state anymore . . .he looks at me in the finished works state.  The accuser is not only in your mind, it "is" your mind.  When you walk according to your reasoning, you walk in the bondage of your limited understanding of spiritual things . . . actually, when "I" / "we" walk in our own reasoning, this applies to me just as much as the next guy.  And there are times I still fall into the rut . .we are of a fallen nature in and of ourselves and there are still times we all let our flesh get the best of us.

But when those times come, this doesn't mean that now we're back to square one with God.  For me, God is much like time . . .it only goes forward, never goes back.  I may stop the clock of his will on occasion due to bad decisions through weakness or ignorance, but the clock never goes back to zero.  When I come to my senses, it simply picks up where it left off.

Even God does not have free will. I know that sounds rather shocking. But God is Love. If you read the Corinthian love chapter you will see what God is. God cannot lie. He does not have that freedom. God cannot really hate His enemy.

God does not have the freedom to lie . . . what if lying is not a freedom but a curse?  What if we don't always have the freedom to tell the truth . . .so we lie.  Same with hating . . . to hate isn't really a freedom, it's flesh.  It's my "self" rising up to defend myself.  And it lashes out due to it's control . .or attempt . .no, if I'm lashing out, that's evidence that my head is in control of my heart.  Either way . . .I don't see hating and lying a freedom to do.  

I have the freedom to ignore my personal tastes and love through my "self" to manifest Christ in others.

Of course .  . this again is much easier said than done.  Just because I'm saying it, I hope you don't expect me to actually do it with all of you :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2008, 12:40:13 AM »
Hi Craig,

I wouldn't go so far as to say that those who deny free will don't care about anyone but themselves.  They genuinely believe that such a scenario of God being responsible for how many times a day that they go to the restroom answers all of the questions of life and brings Him the greatest glory.  It's from their vilification of man created in God's image (reread James very carefully), that they've come to the conclusion that man can do nothing.  With their mouth they bless God and curse man, according to James.  James is the self motivation epistle of the New Testament.  They don't make this error regarding ET, but diligently search the context, translation, point of view, history, circumstances of the passage, etc., but they're not as careful on the subject of the will of man because they'll argue as to what the Scriptural vocabulary should be if it meant to convey that rather than to look at the passages correctly. 

Ever heard the statement that those that believe that they can and those that believe that they can't are both right?  From God's perspective, this is the whole point with regards to our rewards that are mentioned in Hebrews, Revelation, and in various other places.

They simply don't believe that man has the ability to respond to the Spirit of God's prompting and intervention in their lives.  (Reread my posts very carefully 'cause this is what I addressed and chose my wording carefully regarding.  I was discussing response rather than sovereignty on the part of man.  And I believe that Craig was too.  Speaking only for myself: I've never discussed nor hinted at man having any demensions of sovereignty that God needed permission to intrude upon.  How would I believe in the Universal Restoration with such a position??)  One of the errors inherent in such a position of man having no self motivating factor is to take Scriptures that talk about God doing something because no one else would and to extract from that that therefore no one could have done anything except for God.  That's wrong.  And I'm not speaking of redemption, but of temporal stuff.  Only God could redeem.  Only Christ's Blood washes away all sin.  If they need for God to move them around with a remote control, then perhaps He'll get sick enough of them doing nothing without Him pushing them around to where He will for a while.  But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord! :Sparkletooth:

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2008, 12:46:36 AM »
Quote
No where in the Bible is it ever said that man is responsible.

Just because Scripture does not use the word, 'responsible', does not mean we are not.

Matthew 16:27
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.

Romans 2:6-16
God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Ephesians 6:8
Knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, slave or free.

Colossians 3:25
For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

Galatians 6:7,8
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Hebrews 6:7-8
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2008, 12:51:37 AM »

I think there is responsibility and accountability and there is a fine line between the two.

It was not mans will that chose to be subject to vanity,  Isaiah states we are subject to vanity, not voluntarily,  it is because God did design life with that intention in mind.

However, I can look at my life, and see that I did make poor choices, I do not blame God for the choices I made in the midst of my circumstances,  I do, based on Isaiah see the responsibility God has in that manner.

If I devise a plan to hurt someone,  is that responsibility then Gods?  I see scripture saying I have the liberty to devise that plan.  In that case I may be both responsible and accountable, but  God is still responsible for creating a  world in which corruption is allowed in the first place.


So if I am at liberty to devise that plan, then according to proverbs 16:9,  how is it that God directs my steps despite the appearance of my liberty?

It is because he contemplates all my many paths and has them all planned for, so that no matter where my liberty takes me there is only one escape from any of them,  repentance.

It is that liberty that causes learning to take place, he designed us with the ability and emotions to learn so eventually we realize there is only one way out.



Offline jabcat

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2008, 01:13:45 AM »

I think there is responsibility and accountability and there is a fine line between the two.

It was not mans will that chose to be subject to vanity,  Isaiah states we are subject to vanity, not voluntarily,  it is because God did design life with that intention in mind.

....he contemplates all my many paths and has them all planned for, so that no matter where my liberty takes me there is only one escape from any of them,  repentance.

It is that liberty that causes learning to take place, he designed us with the ability and emotions to learn so eventually we realize there is only one way out.

Great post Paul.  As I've said before, I think both sides to the [general] discussion of "will" have parts of the truth, but to my understanding, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, where all the scriptures wrt both our will and God's sovereignty are reconciled.  IMO, we do have a will and choice, but God arranges the circumstances and guarantees the ultimate outcome. A wrong decision on our part is that we chose B instead of A or C that God allowed/presented to us...then He uses even that failure to teach and grow us, until we finally mature to make the right decision. To me that eminates from His sovereignty and assurance that He will be ALL IN ALL.  God's blessing, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2008, 01:23:55 AM »
Martin, do you know what they call them? If there is no accountability or responsibility for their actions the commit, then they do not care about what they do to others because there is no accountability or responsibility to their actions they commit. It is plain and obvious that they only care for themselves, because the moment anyone breaks their paradigm and actually grounds them in reality, they lash out viciously and always without repentance. Grandiose sense of self; pathological lying; lack of remorse, shame or guilt concerning wrong, shallow emotions, impulsive nature, irresponsibility, lack of realistic expectations. etc: These are all traits of a Sociopath, not of someone who follows after the spirit.

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2008, 01:26:14 AM »
Amen Paul.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2008, 01:57:15 AM »
Some answers look so good on paper . . . until you desperately need an answer.  I entered the kingdom of God self-conscious of the presence of God manifesting to me.  Otherwise, all I knew was whatever I'd been told.  Some of it was OK; but, a lot of it wasn't . . . and I didn't know the difference.  I was taught I was guilty of whatever sin I'd committed.  It had been my choice to do or not do whatever I did.  It was my responsibility.  I wrote the following (with some alterations) on a site other than Tentmaker.  Knowing this person wll for many years explains some of how I came to a better understanding of the truth:

Consider a child that from about 4 years old stays with a boy friend 10 years older than himself about 3 weekends a month, a couple of them at his friends farm.  The time they spend together they are having sex.  The boy begins to be beaten almost daily by his father (who is a Pastor,) with a severe beating every 10 days to a couple of weeks. The family moves with the boy about 10 years old. The beatings continue. Other boy friends his own age do sleepovers frequently and they have sex.

You say, "Life is all about choices, that is what free will is..." I ask, What choice does that little boy have? Do you sincerely believe he has a "free will?" You say, "...a child has to be brought [up] in the ways of the Lord to know right from wrong." Do you think this child has enough sense of right and wrong? What do you do if you meet this child as a young man who has lived through this? Will you tell him , "You made your bed and now you're going to have to lie in it!"

« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 02:23:09 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2008, 02:09:25 AM »
Someone answered:  "The young boy does know its wrong and won't tell anyone out of shame . . . (quotes from Rom. 2:14-15 concerning everyone knowing through law or conscience) . . . so that men are without excuse.  Only through repentence and the shed blood of Christ are we saved.  God's wrath is real. Punishment is real and eternal."

This was part of my response:  Not only did the boy NOT know, people who are taken by the strong working of deception sent by God (2 The 2:11) do NOT know. By it's very definition, if you knew you were deceived, you wouldn't be deceived. Do you know how you may be sure you cannot be deceived by this strong delusion to believe a lie?

. . . Jesus appeared to that little boy when he became a young man and radically changed him. He denied himself, took up his cross and has followed Jesus for over 40 years. He has come into an ever more victorious walk. He proves the popular media liars. He could and did change. He is not phobic, but loves those who are still in bondage to sin, desiring they would know the same wonder of our indwelling Savior.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 02:16:50 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2008, 02:14:36 AM »
Hi Craig,

I wouldn't go so far as to say that those who deny free will don't care about anyone but themselves.  They genuinely believe that such a scenario of God being responsible for how many times a day that they go to the restroom answers all of the questions of life and brings Him the greatest glory.  It's from their vilification of man created in God's image (reread James very carefully), that they've come to the conclusion that man can do nothing.  With their mouth they bless God and curse man, according to James.  James is the self motivation epistle of the New Testament.

1a. Martin, I am laughing at your ignorance of James! James! Yes James of all the writers you believe teaches that man has a will apart from God's sovereignty! Well let's have a look at James and see how far afield you have drifted onto the rocks of shipwreck . . .

Jam 4:13-16  Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there, and we will be trafficking and getting gain-"  (14)  who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing-"  (15)  instead of your saying, "If the Lord should ever be willing, and we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that."  (16)  Yet now you are vaunting in your ostentations. All such boasting is wicked.

Do you see what it is saying? You might want to go to this town or that town and do this or that. But you aint gonna do nothin if God aint gonna let ya! His will is just as powerful in the matter as death is. If you die you surely aren't going to go (vs.15) and just as powerful as that is, if the Lord is not willing you are not going to go either. Now do you think James just means that God's sovereignty is only so in the realm of going to this or that town? Or is it possible for you to find other areas in life where this is so too?

Do you see what James says in verse 16? If you think you can go to this or that town without God sovereignly willing it to be so, that such boasting as that is wicked. Yes, Martin, wicked boasting. You want to go to the restroom by your own supposed free will yet your boasting is wicked.

1. God's image is not free will. To give man a freedom apart from God's control is say that God is not in control of His creation and therefore out of control and therefore God is sinning. But of course you love that scenario, don't you? Anything to glorify man's supreme will as being greater than God's is just O.K. with you?

2. People go to the restroom every day (I hope). But what CAUSES them to go to the restroom. Do they go for no cause? Or are they caused to go. If caused then it is not free.
And if they go due to a cause, Who (capitalized for a purpose) do you think created that cause? And if He created that cause, guess Who is responsible for them going to the restroom every day?

Martin, I am just at a loss as to this stance of yours. I . . . I . . . I am just at a loss. I never thought you would deify man's will at the expense of God's supremacy.

Dan 4:35 All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According to His will is He doing in the army of the heavens and with those abiding on the earth. And no one will actually clap with his hands and say to Him, "What doest Thou?

Allow me to  re-write the above verse to accord with your paganistic ideas?

"All abiding on the earth are reckoned as greater than God because of their free wills: According to their will is He doing in the army of the heavens and with those abiding on the earth. And every one will actually clap with his hands and say to Him, "What doest Thou?

Please don't be upset with me for posting the above. But like the Bible says: Be manly (1 Cor.16:13).
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2008, 02:22:48 AM »
Some answers look so good on paper . . . until you desperately need an answer.  I entered the kingdom of God self-conscious of the presence of God manifesting to me.  Otherwise, all I knew was whatever I'd been told.  Some of it was OK; but, a lot of it wasn't . . . and I didn't know the difference.  I was taught I was guilty of whatever sin I'd committed.  It had been my choice to do or not do whatever I did.  It was my responsibility.

I understand. Everyone effects everyone. What happened to you which was outside your control is not your fault. We all suffer the consequences of another person's sin in our lives. To be held responsible falsely of things you did not do, does not mean you are not responsible for the things you did do.

This is not an issue of empathy, I understand what it means to be abused. I had my innocence taken from me by a sexual abuser, and he said it was my fault and that should I tell anyone that my parents would be upset at me. Jesus showed up in person and told me that it was not my fault, and that I should tell my parents what was happening. So I know what it feels like to be abused, but I also know what it feels like when someone stands up for the truth and sets one free from the sins of another.

Next, we are guilty of every sin that you commit, but because of what Jesus has done for all mankind, we do not need to feel guilty for our sins. He has the power to bring back from death, someone to life. We can now draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience. God's grace is sufficient, where sin abounds grace abounds even more. So living a life of self-awareness is good, but living a life of guilt and condemnation is not. Feeling guilt is good if we did indeed do wrong, but dwelling on guilt is bad if we are aware of the wrong we have done and are repentant. If we are not repentant of the sin we commit, deny any wrong, He is just and faithful to correct us until we are completely destroyed of any pride that prevented you from admitting it. Then, when you are broken by our own pride and consequence of sin, He will lift us up and set us in the way we should go. Where we had settled for servant, He has called us Children of God.

So do not put the fact there is evil suffering in the world justify the evil that is in this world. Do not let the fact there is evil suffering in this world justify the evil you commit. Do not let the fact there is evil suffering in this world justify your apathy towards it.

Craig

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2008, 02:25:15 AM »
Martin, do you know what they call them? If there is no accountability or responsibility for their actions the commit, then they do not care about what they do to others because there is no accountability or responsibility to their actions they commit. It is plain and obvious that they only care for themselves, because the moment anyone breaks their paradigm and actually grounds them in reality, they lash out viciously and always without repentance.
As far as the lashing out, that's a character issue and/or misdirected steam from something else going on in their lives that they aren't aware of misdirecting.  They would argue, very likely, that as far as their accountabilty and responsibility that there's an appearance of working in their lives that that's nothing but the grace of God at work in their lives because it's God at work in them to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Grandiose sense of self; pathological lying; lack of remorse, shame or guilt concerning wrong, shallow emotions, impulsive nature, irresponsibility, lack of realistic expectations. etc: These are all traits of a Sociopath, not of someone who follows after the spirit.
These are genuinely potential fruits of their teachings when there's no call to accountability, repentance, and humility but instead a "whatever will be, will be because after all it all works out in the end anyway!"  However, it's an unfair statement to say that it'll either usually or always produce that, because when you're dealing with the discussion boards you've got other points of view that help to inject the missing pieces for newbies to the message.  And when it comes to ministry that they'd do in person, that's going to be much more expansive than anything that they'd say on a discussion board because a preaching/teaching/conversational format when they're comfortable with doing so is liable to bring out much more of the Scriptures if they feed on the Scriptures at all, and the Holy Spirit can check/balance any extremities in the ears and in the hearts of those that hear them.

Plus, all of us are responsible for reading the New Testament for ourselves.  And when it comes to the selection of spiritual fathers, that usually is exclusively the work of the Holy Spirit in a Christian ministry context because keeping anyone's attention over an extended period of time is over in the area of the supernatural when you think about the attention span of this generation.  I can't speak for WillieH because I honestly don't know enough about what he does when he's not online.  I know he's a writer and musician and I know about what some of his recent challenges have been, but little more beyond that.  Tony Nungesser on the other hand is with both the Saviour of all Fellowship and the Concordant Publishing Concern and both are solid ministry outreaches that aren't baring bad fruit at all.  I have genuine faith in the Holy Spirit at work in the Body that if through any one minister or if through any particular ministry an important truth isn't being emphasized, then the Holy Spirit will lead any adherents to where they will learn the reality of the truth that they've been missing.

God honestly doesn't call all of us to teach everything.  God calls specialists in various areas of His Word.  That's why you've got people that seem to only teach prophecy, or to only teach prosperity, or to only teach God's Sovereignty, or to only teach faith, patience, and confession, or to only do something approximating a Billy Graham type of ministry, etc., etc.  God's arranging the Body as He wills it to be.  And I'm not minimizing the importance of each truth of the Word.  Some are called to build foundations in Christ, while others are called to build the walls, or to put in the electrical work of the Holy Spirit, or to develop the plumbing in the Temple of God, or to do the finish carpentry inside and create the real elegance of the Christian life, while others are called to put the roof on the building.  We just honestly need each other for absolutely all of it.  The pastor needs the miracle worker to come into their church, lead worship, or to do whatever they do, and let the sparks fly so that the lost and needy will be drawn into that Church.  The evangelist needs the teaching ministry that can explain to them what they're supposed to be doing and explain to those that they lead to Christ how to fit in the Body and do the works of Christ.  The Apostle needs the guidance/confirmation ministry of the prophet to help them clarify what's going on in their gut for the benefit of their mind about the long range and about other things.  The New Testament speaks of the gifts of encouragement and hospitality that God's placed within the Body.

Everything that you can think of in the Word that's still a gray area in your understanding, God already has someone in the Body that's probably been teaching profoundly in that area of Scripture for years!  None of us have all of it, and the more that we have the more prone we are to hypocrisy because of distractions, alternating emotions, or getting wrong ideas about what we're supposed to be doing, or what we're supposed to be expecting from what we're doing or supposed to do.  No one at these boards is dangerous doctrinally EXCEPT for when they get into strife, and then while they're in strife the book of James calls that wisdom earthly, sensual, devilish, and the bringer of confusion and every evil work.

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2008, 02:49:18 AM »
Quote
Plus, all of us are responsible for reading the New Testament for ourselves.

Martin, you cannot make that addendum to a person who does not believe they are responsible or accountable for anything. heh.

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2008, 02:53:47 AM »
Martin, you cannot make that addendum to a person who does not believe they are responsible or accountable for anything. heh.
Yeah, but even with the worst examples of people that lack accountability, responsibility, etc., it doesn't take the greatest amount of common sense to put it together that if the New Testament is primarily what this whole thing should be about, then maybe I ought to read the thing sometime!

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2008, 02:59:26 AM »
Martin, you cannot make that addendum to a person who does not believe they are responsible or accountable for anything. heh.
Yeah, but even with the worst examples of people that lack accountability, responsibility, etc., it doesn't take the greatest amount of common sense to put it together that if the New Testament is primarily what this whole thing should be about, then maybe I ought to read the thing sometime!

So, you would think it is common sense? Ask them what they think of Scripture, and they will tell you a) It is not divinely inspired, b) It is full of errors and contradictions, c) a history book. How convenient.

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2008, 03:06:46 AM »
So, you would think it is common sense? Ask them what they think of Scripture, and they will tell you a) It is not divinely inspired, b) It is full of errors and contradictions, c) a history book. How convenient.
Doesn't take away their accountability to read it, to only say what it says, and to live by it.

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2008, 03:09:40 AM »
Quote from: willieH
The "WILL" found IN CHRIST is the WILL of YHVH... which is FREE in RIGHTeousness, and is NOT the "WILL" of man, which is IN BONDAGE to it-SELF, producing SIN and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...  :dontknow:

I don't know where you get these definitions, but it is most definitely did not come from anything biblical or spiritual.

Says you...  :laughing7:

It does not surprise me that you admit YOU DO NOT KNOW... for you make this obvious often...

The Bible entirely supports this statement...

(John 8:32)  States that the TRUTH shall MAKE you FREE...

THE TRUTH, is JESUS CHRIST for He lays claim to being the TRUTH, as follows:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him... ...I... am the way, the ...TRUTH... and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me...

Which says that concerning the TRUTH you are UNMADE (uncreated) while your heart is in its NATURAL state, ...which also says that you are NOT FREE until the TRUTH MAKES you FREE... which also means prior to coming to the WORD of GOD, you are IN BONDAGE, for FREEDOM is not MADE in you until the WORD of GOD MAKES you FREE...

It is apparent that your knowledge is limited to what is in front of you, and not the big picture. What we have here is an obvious fallacy, which is called FALSE DICHOTOMY and EXCLUDED MIDDLE. You even forget to consider God created all mankind in His Image from the very beginning, and the purpose of our creation was not for the benefit of God's Self but for the benefit of all things which is good.


Addressing the blue notation in your quote: This is (as are many of your opinions), as far off as it can be... and goes against so many Scriptural premises, far to many to list,  ...I'll just name a few:  

ALL things were made BY HIM and FOR HIM... (not by men and for men)

THY WILL be DONE IN EARTH as it IS in HEAVEN... (not the other way around)  GOD's WILL is to be DONE, not mans... some see this in this realm... others frantically cling to their own glory... which claims the uninspired proclamation that their "will" is FREE... failing to see that it is their "will" which is destined to be ETERNALLY put to DEATH...

Addressing the red notation of your quote: THIS displays that it is You who fails in your surfacely  encumbered vision, to see the "BIG PICTURE"

As you are BLINDED to the Fact ...that THE BEGINNING ...IS... the END... and the END... IS... the BEGINNING,  ...for they are BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY found to be WITHIN THE ETERNAL WORD, as one and the same!

CHRIST does NOT change, so he does NOT become anything, HE IS at all moments -- what HE IS which IS ...the BEGINNING ...AND... the END:

(Rev 1:8 / 22:13) JESUS CHRIST, IS the ALPHA and OMEGA... the BEGINNING and the END... one and the SAME... which is an ETERNAL premise that you, ...within your present finite vision cannot see...  :sigh:

THIS IS THE TRUTH:
The will of man is not in bondage to itself producing sin and unrighteousness, unless will of man is first in submission to itself (an act of the will); however, the will of man that is in submission to the Will of God, is in freedom (an act of the will) .

Please!  ...The above is NOT the "TRUTH"...  :laughhand:

The WILL of man is IN the NATURAL STATE it was created, which desires to fulfill the lusts of the flesh... which state is DISOBEDIENT by NATURE... as JAMES notes:  (James 1:14)

GOD makes you FREE... you do NOT do this ...as a CREATIVE - willful  action which is originated IN YOU!

THE WILL that MAKES a man FREE (of his own ENSLAVED natural will -- given by GOD in man's natural state), is the WORD of GOD...

Which transforms the HEART of the ENSLAVED Natural man, into one which is FREE, by causing SUBMISSION (in the process of DRAWING), to the WILL of YHVH...

SPIRITUAL submission is NOT in the NATURAL NATURE of man... it is the POWER of GOD which comes upon the HEART, that causes "submission"...

SPIRITUAL submission is ACCOMPLISHED ...in man...  by the POWER of GOD's Holy Spirit... for man, ...of himself (his will) is COMPLETELY unable to COME to CHRIST (the TRUTH which MAKES men FREE)... (John 6:44 & 65)

John plainly states here ...TWICE, ...that man CANNOT come to the TRUTH of his own "will",  ...which means that he remains ENSLAVED by his own fleshly will, until the DRAWING of GOD, calls him to be MADE FREE in and by the WORD of GOD... which IS ...the TRUTH!

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 07:12:14 AM by willieH »

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2008, 03:20:30 AM »
So, you would think it is common sense? Ask them what they think of Scripture, and they will tell you a) It is not divinely inspired, b) It is full of errors and contradictions, c) a history book. How convenient.
Doesn't take away their accountability to read it, to only say what it says, and to live by it.

Not from their shoes, they aren't. heh.