Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?

[studier]

There are none who will be left alone while the wicked go raise to aionios kolasis. We are either the ones administering correction reigning with Christ, or we are being corrected by Christ and those who reign with Him. The correction is not punitive punishment, or torture; there is no wanton destruction going to happen to any man. The correction comes through rehabilitation, education, and constant encouragement and love. We are not on the sidelines, we are either part of the solution or we are the problem.

[martincisneros]

There are none who will be left alone while the wicked go raise to aionios kolasis. We are either the ones administering correction reigning with Christ, or we are being corrected by Christ and those who reign with Him. The correction is not punitive punishment, or torture; there is no wanton destruction going to happen to any man. The correction comes through rehabilitation, education, and constant encouragement and love. We are not on the sidelines, we are either part of the solution or we are the problem.

Yup!

[Molly]

There are none who will be left alone while the wicked go raise to aionios kolasis. We are either the ones administering correction reigning with Christ, or we are being corrected by Christ and those who reign with Him. The correction is not punitive punishment, or torture; there is no wanton destruction going to happen to any man. The correction comes through rehabilitation, education, and constant encouragement and love. We are not on the sidelines, we are either part of the solution or we are the problem.

Yup!

I'll take the job of stomping on his hands every time he tries to crawl out of the pit.  That will be educational.  It will teach him empathy for his victims.

[martincisneros]

I'll take the job of stomping on his hands every time he tries to crawl out of the pit.  That will be educational.  It will teach him empathy for his victims.

Craig and WillieH, be nice!  I know she just walked right into that clobbering.

[studier]

I have not much more to say on it. It takes more courage to help one who has wronged you, then it does to refuse to help.

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

[Tony N]

Only those who are set for eonian life believe:
Act 13:48 Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."

Thank you.  I've never seen that verse before.


Question:  would that mean that most Christians are not believers, since few are chosen?

Dear Molly,
"Doubts have arisen in the minds of many believers as to this inseparable bond between election and calling because of the words of Jesus. "For many are the called, yet few are the chosen" (Matt.22:14). But there is no basis whatever for the doubts which these words suggest, for it applies only to the people of Israel, and is confined to the period of His presence among them. That administration is peculiar and singular because of the fact that the Messiah came to His people, not to be received by them and to set up His kingdom, but to be rejected and crucified, with a view to the reconciliation of all. As a member of the separated kingdom-nation, every Israelite was entitled to be called when the Messiah came. This was accomplished when Jesus called on the whole nation to repent. The twelve also were sent to call the whole nation (Matt.10:6). In reality, in this way, many were called, but only a few were chosen to acknowledge Him as the true Messiah in His humiliation (Luke 6:13; John 15:15,19). Only during that short administration is it applicable, "Many are the called, yet few are the chosen." It casts a clear light upon the double position of the people of Israel, which depended upon the divine method of working. If we force this statement into the present administration, it will introduce terrible confusion among immature believers because it brings the vital connection between election and call into question.

"Paul never speaks of these two in this way. In the ecclesia they are indissolubly united, calling, with us, has a much deeper sense. It does not apply to those who have simply heard an evangelist preach. One who is called, that is, has come to believe, is definitely of the elect, or chosen, and need not have the least doubt about it. Only the chosen are called in the present administration, and not a single one of them will be overlooked or forgotten.

     "Thus this ecclesia is composed only of the called. This method of bringing them together into visible existence has given it the divine name, the ecclesia. That denotes, literally, the OUT-CALLED.

     "At the same time this name is the simplest explanation of the nature of this body of people: A previously chosen number who have been called out from the sinning, unbelieving mass of mankind" (M. Jaegel, Unsearchable Riches, vol.42, pp.168,169).

[Tony N]

Tony N, don't divorce ROMANS 1 which states the reason is because they first rejected what was made so obvious and plain to them. God chose man, man rejected God, God shut all men in disobedience so he could have mercy over them all.

"Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!"
Dear SOtW, Romans 1 begs the question: Why is humanity that way and just what is God going to do about it? Paul answers this. If you will go to Romans 5:12 and see it was due to Adam sinning and thus death passing through into all mankind and due to this, all sin. Yes, SOtW, all decendants from Adam sin due to death passing through into them. They had not free will, no self determination to resist this death. Therefore no self determination to resist sinning. Let us see what mankind's real self determination consists of:

Rom 3:10 according as it is written, that "Not one is just- not even one."
Rom 3:11 Not one is understanding. Not one is seeking out God.
Rom 3:12 All avoid Him: at the same time they were useless. Not one is doing kindness: there is not even one!"
Rom 3:13 A sepulcher opened is their throat. With their tongues they defraud."The venom of asps is under their lips."
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth with imprecation and bitterness is crammed.
Rom 3:15 Sharp are their feet to shed blood.
Rom 3:16 Bruises and wretchedness are in their ways,
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace they do not know."
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God in front of their eyes.

Go ahead SOtW and preach to these people till you are blue in the face. They cannot self determine to change their colors and run to God. God has to change their hearts, open their eyes and unstop their ears. It all depends upon God. God saves, not man.

Paul does not stop with Romans 5:12. He leads up to Romans 5:18,19. All mankind are made sinners against their wills. All mankind are condemned against their wills. They are all made sinners due to what Adam did. They are all condemned due to what Adam did. How fair is that?
How have they excercised their almighty herculean wills you and Martin so greatly invest them with? They cannot undo what Adam got them into. Who gets them out of this dilemma? Jesus. How? By His obedience to the cross. They are all neutral recipients of what Adam and Christ did. No one chose or "self determined" to be condemned. No one chose or self determined to be made a sinner. That decision was made for them. Likewise the determination is solely on God's side to make them all righteous.

Free will deifies man and relegates God to a lesser god than man.

A irrelevant statement since it has nothing to substantiate it. You keep associating free-will with self-determination. Why not actually read and listen to what others are saying instead of creating such non-sense. This was already addressed by Martin.
[/quote]

Your self determination mocks God's sovereignty. It mocks everything the Scriptures stand for. The only self determination man has is to run from God, to hate God. And this self determination was determined for them by Adam's act of disobedience. And his act of disobedience was ordained of God so that the Saviour could come to save mankind from sin and death.

"No one can come to the Son unless the Father draw him."

You should re-translate the above words from Christ's own mouth to read:

All mankind have a shot at coming to the Son by their own self determinism! Who needs the Father?

[studier]

Still nothing you wrote there has anything to do with what Martin or myself presented and you just successfully tried to misdirect this discussion. It is amazing how many people in this forum do that.

[martincisneros]

The only self determination man has is to run from God, to hate God. And this self determination was determined for them by Adam's act of disobedience. And his act of disobedience was ordained of God so that the Saviour could come to save mankind from sin and death.

So, this comes down to total depravity in your view.  You have absolutely no argument from either Craig or I on everything that you've said, except for the part where you said that man's will is totally irrelevant in the individual practical reception of God's grace when God makes it known to the individual.  In God's Sovereignty when the fullness of time comes for each individual to either receive God's grace or to become clay broken by the potter to be reshaped at the conclusion of the ages, whether we're vessels of honor or vessels for common, breakable use comes down to our free will.  Again, not our self determination, but our free motivation in response to the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.

[jabcat]

In God's Sovereignty when the fullness of time comes for each individual to either receive God's grace or to become clay broken by the potter to be reshaped at the conclusion of the ages, whether we're vessels of honor or vessels for common, breakable use comes down to our free will.  Again, not our self determination, but our free motivation in response to the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.

Amen.  I don't see this as what's typically termed "free" will.  We do have a will and choice, but IMO, God arranges the circumstances and guarantees the outcome.  Sometimes it's with us kicking, screaming, but finally yielding, because He won't give up on us.  That's my POV and understanding as of right now .  You know, that "one lost sheep".  That's part of His sovereignty and assurance that He will be ALL IN ALL.

[Paul Hazelwood]

One reason is pride,  many people want glory, so they want the glory of the self determination of choosing the greater path.  It is ok with them if everyone is saved as long as everyone has made the self determining choice the same way they believe they do.

Since to them there are those that have already died that they suspect is now in hell forever, it does not sit well with them that those same people are now basking in paradise with the Lord.   Oh they might say "well as long as right before they died they repented and meant it, then ok"

What they do not realize that merely by even talking like that, they are wanting God to conform to what they like concerning salvation.

A lot of it is pride.  I speak many of these things from my own past and how I thought, once.

[Molly]

The only self determination man has is to run from God, to hate God. And this self determination was determined for them by Adam's act of disobedience. And his act of disobedience was ordained of God so that the Saviour could come to save mankind from sin and death.

So, this comes down to total depravity in your view.  You have absolutely no argument from either Craig or I on everything that you've said, except for the part where you said that man's will is totally irrelevant in the individual practical reception of God's grace when God makes it known to the individual.  In God's Sovereignty when the fullness of time comes for each individual to either receive God's grace or to become clay broken by the potter to be reshaped at the conclusion of the ages, whether we're vessels of honor or vessels for common, breakable use comes down to our free will.  Again, not our self determination, but our free motivation in response to the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.

I'm actually wondering if maybe we don't have free will until we meet Jesus and he starts his work in us.

Before that, we are just reacting to stimulus, a lot of it internal.   Jesus is an awesome psychologist.

[martincisneros]

Jesus is an awesome psychologist.

Amen! He sure cast Legion out of me!!  I guess that makes me responsible for the death of more pigs than I ever care to remember.

[willieH]

willieH: Howdy brother M...

Free will, not expressed as self determination, but as self motivation in response to the call of the Gospel is never set aside by a single page of the New Testament[/b].

I dont agree bro...  SOVEREIGNTY is found controlling this whole scenario, if one looks closer:

Rom 9:11-12  For being NOT YET BORN, neither having done ANYTHING GOOD or EVIL, that the PURPOSE of GOD ...according to ELECTION... might stand, NOT of WORKS, but of HIM that CALLETH...  It was SAID unto her: the ELDER shall SERVE the YOUNGER...

Where is "FREE WILL" or "SELF DETERMINATION" or "SELF MOTIVATION", or whatever "title" one seeks to attach to the will of man, found in this passage of the NT? 

Or in this one, a few verses later:

Rom 9:16  ...so then it is NOT of him that WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but OF GOD that sheweth mercy...

This verse takes out of any man's will, the ..."self determination", "free will", or "self motivation" aspect ...concerning MERCY and its enaction upon us... 

Or this one, a few verses later:

Rom 9:20  Nay but O MAN, who are THOU that repliest [talk back] unto GOD?  Shall the thing ...FORMED... say unto Him that FORMED, why hast ...THOU... MADE me THUS?

Seems to me the POTTER is making the decisions about the CLAY, whether they appear to the CLAY, good or bad!  And the CLAY has NO RIGHT to object in any instance! 

This HAS to be referring to NEGATIVITY which is IMPOSED (see verses 18-19) in the EXPERIENCE, for surely the CLAY would not OBJECT to something GOOD... eh?

i.e.  ...We might be found WHINING about a small cup of beans for dinner, ...but surely NOT about a Steak & Lobster dinner with mashed potatoes, lotsa veggies and dessert!

How about this one:

John 6:44  No man ...CAN... come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me, DRAW HIM UNTO ME...

Where is "SELF MOTIVATION" (free will, or self determination) in this, the ONLY means in which we come to the SAVIOR? 

We don't "RESPOND"... we "come" because we are DRAWN...

The metal washer on the counter doesn't come of itself by "responding" to the presence of the magnet... it is DRAWN to the MAGNET by the POWER, ...IN... the magnet...

peacE...
willieH   

[reFORMer]

Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?

After all, all dogs go to heaven, don't they?  It can't be THAT hard to believe!

[Molly]

Where is "SELF MOTIVATION" (free will, or self determination) in this, the ONLY means in which we come to the SAVIOR? 

We don't "RESPOND"... we "come" because we are DRAWN...

The metal washer on the counter doesn't come of itself by "responding" to the presence of the magnet... it is DRAWN to the MAGNET by the POWER, ...IN... the magnet...

peacE...
willieH   

I don't quite understand why you always stop here--if you mean to stop here, or if you are just making a point of stopping here.  Because it doesn't stop here.  The free will is found in Christ.


John 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The magnet analogy doesn't take into consideration that a piece of steel cannot object to being drawn, man does and his resistance is what makes the difference between a straight line to the magnet or one that takes much longer and is much more difficult.

If a piece of steel goes off the course that the pull of the magnet is pulling it,  it could slam into another object.   While the piece of steel doesn't know a thing, a human being will experience the pain of slamming into something as it resists the pull of the magnet.

Ultimatly the magnet wins, of course.   But without the knowledge that going off course of the pull of the magnet causes pain, there is no reason to warn and teach to not resist in the first place.

The potter moulds the clay, sure, but the analogy is telling us who is ultimatly in control.  Other verses tell us that while the potter is the master,  the clay can cause itself much pain when it resists being formed.

We can object, but we are going to be made into his image and we can take the road of the narrow gate, or the road of destruction to get there.

The bible also talks along the lines of what Molly suggested.  The carnal mind is emnity to God and is unable to be subject to the law of God.  God does draw, but there is an aspect of our resistance of our own will that comes into play as well.

[martincisneros]

WillieH,

There was never a change in thought between the 8th and 12th chapters of Romans.  It all has to do with illustrating a mind controlled by the Spirit of the Word and the mind controlled by the law of sin and death.  It's written from the perspective of the Holy Spirit being on the right side of the spirit-filled believer and it's illustrating essentially the same truths illustrated by Galatians so that we'll make fruit-baring decisions in taking the ministry of reconciliation to the nations.  Romans 9 and John 6 both have to do with His dealings with Old Covenant Israel in terms of the Old Covenant. 

Israel is the clay and the Gospel is the Potter in St. Paul's illustration.  St. Paul was illustrating the crushing of Old Testament Judaism that was about to take place, while still extending the hope into the Christian's mind from generation to generation that they too would be reformed by the Gospel and would become honorable vessels during the millenium. 

Pharaoh is a type of the law that wouldn't let the people go.  God was illustrating through St. Paul the harshness of the law that wouldn't allow the people of Israel in St. Paul's day to see the glorious Gospel being brought by the New Moses anticipated by Deuteronomy in the person of Jesus Christ.  God hardened the heart of the law in order to contrast it with the administration of the Son of God.  St. Paul was illustrating the attitude of Jacob, a picture of the Church, and demonstrating the law in the person of Esau who wasn't able to inherit the promises through self-effort that was void of the Spirit and the Word. 

Nothing in Romans is meant to set the recreated spirit at variance with the mind of the spirit and it's responses by the mercies of God to the gifts emerging within the new creation in Christ that are supposed to be practiced to perfection until all of the creation is freed by the manifestation of the sons of God.  The Sons of God being manifested isn't through their becoming zombies that are incapable of being judges and saviours together with their Head as they continue in His Word in the same way as He continues in the Word of the Father, according to John 8.  St. Paul repeatedly appeals to our free wills in his preaching of repentance throughout all of his teachings and most especially (though not exclusively) in Acts and in Romans chapters 6, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.  And again, Romans chapters 9 and 11 were illustrations of what he was talking about, but there was no change in thought throughout what's between Romans chapter 8 and Romans chapter 12.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Realizing it is a parable, the parable of the talents has a story that appears to contradict the idea that man has no freedom within his own will.

If the servant who was called lazy and evil is not a representation of the liberty we have within the boundaries God sets  (they was given talents according to their abilities) then why is the evil and lazy servant not a good and faithful servant as well?  That servant only did what God dictated that he was meant to do.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Here is another passage going along with the thread title and the free will issue both.

Gn 32:24 . And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

AV Gn 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.



I fully believe that God has a way he has designed this existance for us,  he allows us the liberty (because God can do that, can he not?) to wrestle with him.  He allows us the liberty to resist and go our own way (because God can do that, can he not?) for a season.


But here we see just what God does do, God makes it impossible for us to win against him.  It still goes back to a pride issue a lot of the time.  at one point I would not have liked hearing that God would dictate my circumstances to get me to go a different direction. The stories you hear is that since God is love he would never do something like this.

I've never heard this passage explained in church for anything other that saying we do not win when we resist God,  but of course it was within the perspective that some will always resist no matter what and when they are in hell and realize their monumental screw up, oh, well , then it is too late.

[studier]

Simply stated words such as, sin, disobedience, wickedness, evil, repentance, obedience, righteousness, and good are irrelevant without any freedom of will. If one was created to sin, then it would not be sin and no need for repentance. If one was created to be disobedient, then he would not be but obedient, if one was created for evil, then it is good. Such ignorance God did look over in the past, but today, it will cause the person who remains in sin, disobedience, wickedness, evil, unnecessary suffering because they continue to pursue sin, disobedience, wickedness and evil.

Acts 17:30,31 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

[willieH]

Where is "SELF MOTIVATION" (free will, or self determination) in this, the ONLY means in which we come to the SAVIOR? 

We don't "RESPOND"... we "come" because we are DRAWN...

The metal washer on the counter doesn't come of itself by "responding" to the presence of the magnet... it is DRAWN to the MAGNET by the POWER, ...IN... the magnet...

peacE...
willieH   

I don't quite understand why you always stop here--if you mean to stop here, or if you are just making a point of stopping here.  Because it doesn't stop here.  The free will is found in Christ.


John 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The "WILL" found IN CHRIST is the WILL of YHVH... which is FREE in RIGHTeousness, and is NOT the "WILL" of man, which is IN BONDAGE to it-SELF, producing SIN and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS... 

peacE...
willieH   

[Molly]

The "WILL" found IN CHRIST is the WILL of YHVH... which is FREE in RIGHTeousness, and is NOT the "WILL" of man, which is IN BONDAGE to it-SELF, producing SIN and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS... 

That does not detract from the fact that it is the true free will of the creative mind, unencumbered by the past, able to see clearly, not asleep or in the trance of death, drugs, alcohol, or lies.  This is the mind of dominion.



14And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

 15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

[studier]

The "WILL" found IN CHRIST is the WILL of YHVH... which is FREE in RIGHTeousness, and is NOT the "WILL" of man, which is IN BONDAGE to it-SELF, producing SIN and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS... 

I don't know where you get these definitions, but it is most definitely did not come from anything biblical or spiritual. It is apparent that your knowledge is limited to what is in front of you, and not the big picture. What we have here is an obvious fallacy, which is called FALSE DICHOTOMY and EXCLUDED MIDDLE. You even forget to consider God created all mankind in His Image from the very beginning, and the purpose of our creation was not for the benefit of God's Self but for the benefit of all things which is good.

THIS IS THE TRUTH:
The will of man is not in bondage to itself producing sin and unrighteousness, unless will of man is first in submission to itself (an act of the will); however, the will of man that is in submission to the Will of God, is in freedom (an act of the will) .

[Molly]

The will of man that is in bondage to itself is producing sin and unrighteousness; but the will of man that is in submission (an act of the will) to the Will of God is in freedom.

Or in bondage to death.

Yes, and the act of submission is possible before we even know where it will lead.  That's a leap of faith.

But, Paul tells us that it is open to all men, because the Father is drawing all men with his creation.

WillieH seems to have this idea that we cannot know God unless he somehow singles us out and drops an anvil on our heads to get our attention.  Do you agree with that?



19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


--Rom 1