Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?

[Molly]

I believe our carnal nature is the prison and inside are many cells.  Our perfection comes from Christ unlocking the cells, the completion of that perfection is when we are enabled to walk out of the prison.

Amen Paul.  My carnality is what imprisons me.  Faith in Christ releases me from the prisons "within". 

Yes, but this freedom should percolate through all of society and through every society in the world.  But, it's not.  Things just seem to be getting worse.

One thing I have found over the years is that the majority of christians are not teaching an ounce of faith or freedom.

They are teaching turn or burn, no matter how pretty the DVD package is or how loving the missionary seems, the message is the same.  

We could possibly assume Molly, that when Christ says "You will do greater things than I" that maybe what you suggest is possible. I say that because Christ declared he did not come to bring peace on earth.

But until we are teaching a true faith message of freedom,  there is nothing to percolate but lies.

It's something I'm really struggling with right now.  I see a curtain of darkness descending over the world.  I have seen it getting worse and worse for a long time, but now it's looking like the end of the play, and satan is about to come out and take a bow.

And, everyone who is asleep, will they wake up then?

But God has promised me that his mountain of righteousness will fill the whole world (Dan 2)... 

[Tony N]

What about the unbelief in the first place?  Is not "that" the reason why the locks were in place?  Had they believed, the locks wouldn't be necessary.  Who told them to not believe?

For me it's like God is an umbrella to protect me from the elements.  If I step out from under the umbrella, God's judgment of pelting rain is not the result . . .the pelting rain is hitting because "I" stepped out of the alignment.  This lock we're talking about is what happens when we don't believe what God tells us.  What unlocks it is the same that locked it in the first place . . the exercising of my faith.

To say that this lock is still there is to then say that even though Jesus is knocking at the door . . .it's a locked door???  Wouldn't he know that??

Jesus is knocking at the door of the SYNOGOGUE in the future in John's revelation. If anyone in that SYNOGOGUE opens the door to that synogogue then Jesus will come into that synogogue toward that person and sup with him. That is still future.

Also God began locking Israel in stubbornness in Isaiah's day. Jesus said it was still in force in his day. Paul, in Acts said it is still in force after Christ died and rose from the dead.
In Romans 11 God has still locked them up in stubbornness.

Well there inlies the source of our difference right there.  I am convinced that it is "not" a futuristic event and you believe it is.  That can get into a whole other debate which I don't think would really be all that effective in this thread.  But for me, the door is open . . .we're the ones that keep trying to close it, not God.  And even then, we don't have the authority to close what God has opened.  We can try to pretend . . . just as the priests did after the veil was ripped . . .we can try to go on with our lives "business as usual" but that doesn't change the fact that we're living in a draft . .due to the open door before us.

Tony's reply:
you said "we don't have the authority to close what God has opened" and yet the Bible says "God has locked up all in stubbornness." So you should also say we don't have the authority to open what God has locked shut.

Also, it does not make sense that if Jesus is asking someone to "open the door" that it is not open and hence, no draft. Get it?

If Revelation is for us now, then we have been living in the 1000 year kingdom for two thousand years now, even though Revelation says it ends when 1000 years expires (Rev.20:7).
So, 1000 years ago the earth was destroyed by fire (even though no one noticed), all the bowls of destruction came upon the earth (though no one noticed), all the drinking water of the earth was poisoned by an asteroid (though no one noticed) etc. etc. etc. Rather glaring don't you think? Now you can say "a thousand years is as a day" but that does not mean "a thousand years IS a day."

"I John came to be in spirit IN the Lord's day." Just prior to the Lord's day Satan is captured and held for 1000 years. He has been roaming this earth for the last two thousand. 75 days after the Lord's day begins Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will, with the righteous of Israel, rise from their tombs and enter into the kingdom of Christ, the 1000 year kingdom. This has not happened yet.

Behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it."     [Revelation 3:8]

"Behold, a door was opened in heaven; and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither..."                          [Revelation 4:1

Tony's reply: A door opened in heaven is not the same door that is imprisoning all in unbelief here on earth.

[Molly]

If Revelation is for us now, then we have been living in the 1000 year kingdom for two thousand years now, even though Revelation says it ends when 1000 years expires (Rev.20:7).

I think we are in the time of the firstfruits.  What is that?  The barley harvest?  So for some it is now.


1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.



10Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

 11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

--Lev 23

[Paul Hazelwood]

I believe our carnal nature is the prison and inside are many cells.  Our perfection comes from Christ unlocking the cells, the completion of that perfection is when we are enabled to walk out of the prison.

Amen Paul.  My carnality is what imprisons me.  Faith in Christ releases me from the prisons "within". 

Yes, but this freedom should percolate through all of society and through every society in the world.  But, it's not.  Things just seem to be getting worse.

One thing I have found over the years is that the majority of christians are not teaching an ounce of faith or freedom.

They are teaching turn or burn, no matter how pretty the DVD package is or how loving the missionary seems, the message is the same.  

We could possibly assume Molly, that when Christ says "You will do greater things than I" that maybe what you suggest is possible. I say that because Christ declared he did not come to bring peace on earth.

But until we are teaching a true faith message of freedom,  there is nothing to percolate but lies.

It's something I'm really struggling with right now.  I see a curtain of darkness descending over the world.  I have seen it getting worse and worse for a long time, but now it's looking like the end of the play, and satan is about to come out and take a bow.

And, everyone who is asleep, will they wake up then?

But God has promised me that his mountain of righteousness will fill the whole world (Dan 2)... 

Molly, I struggle with that too.   I think it is why we can get so wound up over free will.   I think where we see freedoms we "hope" and "desire" that how we might feel about Christ that we should just be able to tell someone of our excitment and that would wake things up.

But it is not our free will that delivers the freedom.  And it does not happen to everyone at once, so it is hard.

One of the dark spells in my life was being in a church, and  getting all excited about some freedom I believe I discovered in this place where I am told I was safe, in this place where I believe I was told I was amongst people that lived this life of freedom I was led to believe I could share anything.

But when I laid my heart out there it was devoured up as if they had ripped it out of my chest.   Was it a room full of mean words and bitterness?   No, in fact, it was the nicest display of  condescending "correction" and I emotionally crashed.   It was because it was a display so crafty that it was impossible to prove to anyone that it was evil at work.  I was lost, but it was because I had believed my fortress and strongholds were in the minds of people.

Molly, I see that darkness also, but I am struggling with understanding that I believe it must happen.

[Tony N]

If Revelation is for us now, then we have been living in the 1000 year kingdom for two thousand years now, even though Revelation says it ends when 1000 years expires (Rev.20:7).

I think we are in the time of the firstfruits.  What is that?  The barley harvest?  So for some it is now.


1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

No, Molly, sorry to be so disagreable but only Christ is the firstfruits. The operative words from those who belong to Him is "when He comes." And it is the firstfruit of vivification (being made alive beyond the reach of death." That has only happened to Christ so far. It will happen to us "when He comes."

[Molly]

If Revelation is for us now, then we have been living in the 1000 year kingdom for two thousand years now, even though Revelation says it ends when 1000 years expires (Rev.20:7).

I think we are in the time of the firstfruits.  What is that?  The barley harvest?  So for some it is now.


1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

No, Molly, sorry to be so disagreable but only Christ is the firstfruits. The operative words from those who belong to Him is "when He comes." And it is the firstfruit of vivification (being made alive beyond the reach of death." That has only happened to Christ so far. It will happen to us "when He comes."

Christ is the first of the firstfruits, that he may have pre-eminence in everything.  But we have a purchase of the firstfruits--the Spirit.

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

[Nathan]

What about the unbelief in the first place?  Is not "that" the reason why the locks were in place?  Had they believed, the locks wouldn't be necessary.  Who told them to not believe?

For me it's like God is an umbrella to protect me from the elements.  If I step out from under the umbrella, God's judgment of pelting rain is not the result . . .the pelting rain is hitting because "I" stepped out of the alignment.  This lock we're talking about is what happens when we don't believe what God tells us.  What unlocks it is the same that locked it in the first place . . the exercising of my faith.

To say that this lock is still there is to then say that even though Jesus is knocking at the door . . .it's a locked door???  Wouldn't he know that??

Jesus is knocking at the door of the SYNOGOGUE in the future in John's revelation. If anyone in that SYNOGOGUE opens the door to that synogogue then Jesus will come into that synogogue toward that person and sup with him. That is still future.

Also God began locking Israel in stubbornness in Isaiah's day. Jesus said it was still in force in his day. Paul, in Acts said it is still in force after Christ died and rose from the dead.
In Romans 11 God has still locked them up in stubbornness.

Well there inlies the source of our difference right there.  I am convinced that it is "not" a futuristic event and you believe it is.  That can get into a whole other debate which I don't think would really be all that effective in this thread.  But for me, the door is open . . .we're the ones that keep trying to close it, not God.  And even then, we don't have the authority to close what God has opened.  We can try to pretend . . . just as the priests did after the veil was ripped . . .we can try to go on with our lives "business as usual" but that doesn't change the fact that we're living in a draft . .due to the open door before us.

Tony's reply:
you said "we don't have the authority to close what God has opened" and yet the Bible says "God has locked up all in stubbornness." So you should also say we don't have the authority to open what God has locked shut.

Also, it does not make sense that if Jesus is asking someone to "open the door" that it is not open and hence, no draft. Get it?

If Revelation is for us now, then we have been living in the 1000 year kingdom for two thousand years now, even though Revelation says it ends when 1000 years expires (Rev.20:7).
So, 1000 years ago the earth was destroyed by fire (even though no one noticed), all the bowls of destruction came upon the earth (though no one noticed), all the drinking water of the earth was poisoned by an asteroid (though no one noticed) etc. etc. etc. Rather glaring don't you think? Now you can say "a thousand years is as a day" but that does not mean "a thousand years IS a day."

"I John came to be in spirit IN the Lord's day." Just prior to the Lord's day Satan is captured and held for 1000 years. He has been roaming this earth for the last two thousand. 75 days after the Lord's day begins Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will, with the righteous of Israel, rise from their tombs and enter into the kingdom of Christ, the 1000 year kingdom. This has not happened yet.

Behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it."     [Revelation 3:8]

"Behold, a door was opened in heaven; and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither..."                          [Revelation 4:1

Tony's reply: A door opened in heaven is not the same door that is imprisoning all in unbelief here on earth.

Also, it does not make sense that if Jesus is asking someone to "open the door" that it is not open and hence, no draft. Get it?  So according to you, I don't have the authority to open or close a door, but yet Jesus is knocking on the very door I can't open???

At any rate, I sense this is going in a negative direction as I can't convince you that it's spiritual, and you can't convince me that it's natural.

I believe that when John was told NOT to seal the book, because the time was at hand . . .he was told that because the things revealed were already happening "then".  I've not seen anyone try to explain that one away.  Not that it would really matter at this point because you're sharing what you see, I'm sharing what I see and we're in two different places because we are at different places in our walk with Christ.  I don't want to let my points of view over-shadow God's overall purpose for the conversation.  

I pray no offense was made during the course of my conversation on this issue.

[Tony N]

Behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it."     [Revelation 3:8]

"Behold, a door was opened in heaven; and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither..."                          [Revelation 4:1

Tony's reply: A door opened in heaven is not the same door that is imprisoning all in unbelief here on earth.

Also, it does not make sense that if Jesus is asking someone to "open the door" that it is not open and hence, no draft. Get it?  So according to you, I don't have the authority to open or close a door, but yet Jesus is knocking on the very door I can't open???

No, the point is this: You said a door is open. Then I said that the door is actually closed because if it was open Jesus would not ask anyone to open the door which He is knocking on.

At any rate, I sense this is going in a negative direction as I can't convince you that it's spiritual, and you can't convince me that it's natural.

I believe that when John was told NOT to seal the book, because the time was at hand . . .he was told that because the things revealed were already happening "then".  I've not seen anyone try to explain that one away.  Not that it would really matter at this point because you're sharing what you see, I'm sharing what I see and we're in two different places because we are at different places in our walk with Christ.  I don't want to let my points of view over-shadow God's overall purpose for the conversation.  

I pray no offense was made during the course of my conversation on this issue.

No offense at all was taken and I hope you were not offended by anything I said as well.

Rev 22:10 And he is saying to me, "You should not be sealing the sayings of the prophecy of this scroll, for the era is near."

If, according to you, John was not to seal up the scroll for those things he wrote about were about to come to pass, then why did they not come to pass? Why for 2000 years have they still not come to pass?

Also, John did not know about the present secret administration and that Israel was to be set aside and a select number of believers of the nations were to comprise the body of Christ which is unknown in all the Old Testament and New Testament Circumcision writings.

[Nathan]

They "did" come to pass . . . that's the whole point.  It wasn't about demolishing Israel, it was about removing the old covenant system.  But because Israel embraced that which was supposed be be a temporary solution, they felt the affects of the removing of the tares as well.  It's there, it all fits . . .nothing is guess-work and assumption . . .we just have to look at it from the upper room, rather than from ground level.

[Zeek]

They "did" come to pass . . . that's the whole point.  It wasn't about demolishing Israel, it was about removing the old covenant system.  But because Israel embraced that which was supposed be be a temporary solution, they felt the affects of the removing of the tares as well.  It's there, it all fits . . .nothing is guess-work and assumption . . .we just have to look at it from the upper room, rather than from ground level.

AMEN

[pneuma]

The only Jews who believe, such as Saul who became the apostle Paul, was not because they somehow cut a hole through the prison wall and escaped God's prison by their free will and somehow circumvented God's prison system. It was because God unlocked Paul's stubbornness.
The Bible does not say that "those locked in unbelief are only there because they do not realize He has set them free." The Bible does, however say, that they will remain stubborn UNTIL . . . until what or until when? . . .

Rom 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."

Tony I see that those nation are entering in.
And the Jews were locked up in unbelief in the Old Testament bro, so how did any Jew get out of their prison? No Jew should be saved in this age or any past according to your understanding.

 The door is unlocked but like any blind man that cannot see that it's unlocked they wonder around in their unbelief.

pneuma, I don't want you to be ignorant of this secret either. Once that which completes the body of Christ among the nations then and only then will Israel be let out of the prison of stubbornness. Not one day sooner. God is the Warden and He has set the time table.

The body of Christ only proclaims the liberty of what Jesus Christ has already accomplished. Although I do agree some won't be set at liberty until the manifestations of the sons of God, but that's not because the door is locked to them, it just means they have not yet found their way to the door.

pneuma, if the door is locked, how can you say it is open? Don't you find that rather contradictory to what the Scriptures say?

"God locks up all in stubbornness" yet you say the door is not locked, it is open! It does not say: "God opens the door to stubbornness."

I see that Jesus has opened the door to all, Jesus said he that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out, therefore if a Jew comes to Christ he has as much liberty as anyone else.
Again brother we see this even in those same scripture, how if they abide not still in unbelief God will graff them in again. V.23 and it is this gafting in of both Jew and Gentile that Paul say he would not have us be ignorant of.

[pneuma]

What about the unbelief in the first place?  Is not "that" the reason why the locks were in place?  Had they believed, the locks wouldn't be necessary.  Who told them to not believe?

For me it's like God is an umbrella to protect me from the elements.  If I step out from under the umbrella, God's judgment of pelting rain is not the result . . .the pelting rain is hitting because "I" stepped out of the alignment.  This lock we're talking about is what happens when we don't believe what God tells us.  What unlocks it is the same that locked it in the first place . . the exercising of my faith.

To say that this lock is still there is to then say that even though Jesus is knocking at the door . . .it's a locked door???  Wouldn't he know that??

 

[Taffy]

They "did" come to pass . . . that's the whole point.  It wasn't about demolishing Israel, it was about removing the old covenant system.  But because Israel embraced that which was supposed be be a temporary solution, they felt the affects of the removing of the tares as well.  It's there, it all fits . . .nothing is guess-work and assumption . . .we just have to look at it from the upper room, rather than from ground level.

AMEN

[pneuma]

Well there inlies the source of our difference right there.  I am convinced that it is "not" a futuristic event and you believe it is.

That is indeed the differance Nathan, Knock's taught much of what Tony is speaking on. Much of what knock's taught was very good imo but I differed in view from him were he made a distinction between Jew and Gentile.

[Nathan]

Don't know Knoch . . . I haven't really read what others have said.  I haven't "studied" both sides and chosen one.  I "used" to teach what I was taught to teach until I began letting go or at least willing to let go of the traditions that brought me to where I am.  I had no idea just how deep the misconceptions have gone until there was some distance between where I am and where I was.

My theme even when I was in tradtions was that I wanted intimacy . . .I prayed that and cried out for that . . .not fully understanding what all that entailed.  But now, I am further along this liberating road of grace, I can see that God wanted me to have this intimacy with him so he put it in my spirit to call for it so that it could be released in me.  And now I can enjoy the luxury of believing the word "in" me rather than trying to interpret that which is without.  And truly guys, they do match up, even though they may not match up according to natural reasoning, but they do match up when his light illuminates the connections.

That's why my main message is not to study to show yourself approved . .by the threads and comments, it's clear, you've already found that you are approved "through" your relationship "and" your studying.  But now, my personal message is "pursue Christ".  In doing that, all things that you need, whether you realize you need them or not, but all things that you need, he will impress upon you to pursue and receive.  But I'm finding, mostly the "pursuing" consists more of just letting go and let it come to me, rather than trying to conjure up an emotion or revelation.  It goes so much deeper in my nature when I just let him bring to me what he desires for me to have than to pursue what I think it is that I should have.

Mindlessness . . . it's probably the last thing a believer would think is the key to anything.  But when you start looking at beheadings in Scripture . . .there's a lot there that gets missed by others who are taken in with the story itself.  Goliath lost his head as he was the ipitomy of carnal man.  It wasn't enough that his mind was penetraited by the stone, his entire head had to be removed . .with his very own version of the Word.

Mindlessness . . . it just happens to be something I'm good at.

See you guys Monday.  Have a great weekend.

[pneuma]

Don't know Knoch . . . I haven't really read what others have said.  I haven't "studied" both sides and chosen one.  I "used" to teach what I was taught to teach until I began letting go or at least willing to let go of the traditions that brought me to where I am.  I had no idea just how deep the misconceptions have gone until there was some distance between where I am and where I was.

My theme even when I was in tradtions was that I wanted intimacy . . .I prayed that and cried out for that . . .not fully understanding what all that entailed.  But now, I am further along this liberating road of grace, I can see that God wanted me to have this intimacy with him so he put it in my spirit to call for it so that it could be released in me.  And now I can enjoy the luxury of believing the word "in" me rather than trying to interpret that which is without.  And truly guys, they do match up, even though they may not match up according to natural reasoning, but they do match up when his light illuminates the connections.

That's why my main message is not to study to show yourself approved . .by the threads and comments, it's clear, you've already found that you are approved "through" your relationship "and" your studying.  But now, my personal message is "pursue Christ".  In doing that, all things that you need, whether you realize you need them or not, but all things that you need, he will impress upon you to pursue and receive.  But I'm finding, mostly the "pursuing" consists more of just letting go and let it come to me, rather than trying to conjure up an emotion or revelation.  It goes so much deeper in my nature when I just let him bring to me what he desires for me to have than to pursue what I think it is that I should have.

Mindlessness . . . it's probably the last thing a believer would think is the key to anything.  But when you start looking at beheadings in Scripture . . .there's a lot there that gets missed by others who are taken in with the story itself.  Goliath lost his head as he was the ipitomy of carnal man.  It wasn't enough that his mind was penetraited by the stone, his entire head had to be removed . .with his very own version of the Word.

Mindlessness . . . it just happens to be something I'm good at.

See you guys Monday.  Have a great weekend.

I agree nathan, one of the reason I pull back from these boards is because to many voices and I always learned more by just sitting at His feet as it were then runing around the house. But I do miss the fellowship as it is the only place I have it, thus my being back here right now at least for the moment.

About loosing our head, John said I must decrease the HE might increase, then John was beheaded.
Speaks volumes if you know what I mean.

[Taffy]

About loosing our head, John said I must decrease the HE might increase, then John was beheaded.
Speaks volumes if you know what I mean.

yo Bro...

what Man can add a Cubit to HIS STATURE

Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

Then compare LUKE

Luk 19:3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.

Luk 19:4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that [way].


 Luk 19:5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for """""""""""""""""to day I must abide at thy house. """"""""""""


 Luk 19:6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.


 Luk 19:7 And when they saw [it], they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.


 Luk 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold.


 Luk 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

 Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


Only By faith can we be added to HIS STATURE

AWESOME PASSAGE

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 

OH NEW JERUSALEM

Luk 2:45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.


 Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

 Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.


 Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.


 Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?


 Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.


 Luk 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

HE , how the wording can catch us...Christ Imcreases WITHIN the Temple...yehaaaaaaaaaaa!

 Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.



YEAH I know more mystic....

[Zeek]

They "did" come to pass . . . that's the whole point.  It wasn't about demolishing Israel, it was about removing the old covenant system.  But because Israel embraced that which was supposed be be a temporary solution, they felt the affects of the removing of the tares as well.  It's there, it all fits . . .nothing is guess-work and assumption . . .we just have to look at it from the upper room, rather than from ground level.

 

Let me get this straight, The earth was destroyed by fire. When did this happen and why did no one, not even the church know about it?

2/3 of all mankind was wiped out. When did this happen and why did no one, not even the church know about it?

All the terrible signs in heaven and on the earth happened. When? Why did no one in history ever write about it and even the church never knew it happened?

When was Satan bound in the abyss for 1000 years? For 1000 years the inhabitants of the earth were not deceived. How come nobody knew about this?

When did the great earthquake come and level all the cities of the world and all the islands were removed? Why did no historian write about this and no church ever knew it happened?

How come no historian recorded Christ coming back to earth and why was the church not snatched away to meet Him in the air and when were the tombs of all the believers of the nations opened? And why did no historian write about it and no church know about it?

You see Nathan, what you are proposing is insane.

If Christ already came back 2000 years ago or whenever then the complement of the nations entered way back then too and all Israel was saved way back then. We are currently on the new earth. Insanity!

But  "God gives [me], not a spirit of timidity, but of power and of love and of sanity" and that is why I'm not falling for your insanity.

Not necessarily to you Tony, as u are quite sure you have the "sane" TRUTH, but to any others open to other views, check out

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/studyIndex.php

 eschatology articles.

[Tony N]

They "did" come to pass . . . that's the whole point.  It wasn't about demolishing Israel, it was about removing the old covenant system.  But because Israel embraced that which was supposed be be a temporary solution, they felt the affects of the removing of the tares as well.  It's there, it all fits . . .nothing is guess-work and assumption . . .we just have to look at it from the upper room, rather than from ground level.

 

Let me get this straight, The earth was destroyed by fire. When did this happen and why did no one, not even the church know about it?

2/3 of all mankind was wiped out. When did this happen and why did no one, not even the church know about it?

All the terrible signs in heaven and on the earth happened. When? Why did no one in history ever write about it and even the church never knew it happened?

When was Satan bound in the abyss for 1000 years? For 1000 years the inhabitants of the earth were not deceived. How come nobody knew about this?

When did the great earthquake come and level all the cities of the world and all the islands were removed? Why did no historian write about this and no church ever knew it happened?

How come no historian recorded Christ coming back to earth and why was the church not snatched away to meet Him in the air and when were the tombs of all the believers of the nations opened? And why did no historian write about it and no church know about it?

You see Nathan, what you are proposing is insane.

If Christ already came back 2000 years ago or whenever then the complement of the nations entered way back then too and all Israel was saved way back then. We are currently on the new earth. Insanity!

But  "God gives [me], not a spirit of timidity, but of power and of love and of sanity" and that is why I'm not falling for your insanity.

Not necessarily to you Tony, as u are quite sure you have the "sane" TRUTH, but to any others open to other views, check out

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/studyIndex.php

 eschatology articles.

Well Zeek you got that right about the "sane" statement. 

I went to the link above and to the Intro to Revelation 1.
The person stated this:

"The text of Revelation provides a self-witness for the date it was written.

Revelation 11:1-2 (NKJV) Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

"These verses refers to a temple standing in a city called the `holy city'. Based upon Old Testament Scripture, we can surmise that a Christian Jew such as John would have had the historical Jerusalem in mind when he spoke of the holy city. "

He says the internal evidence from the verse above is that John actually went to Jerusalem and did some measuring. Let's see if that was possible.

I will start a new thread if that is O.K. with the thought police (ahem, I mean board monitors) on Revelation. I think this is interesting as I think we all have plenty to share on this topic.

So to get back to this topic on the will . . .

God says He locks up all together in stubbornness (Romans 11:32).
The majority of you say basically Paul is mistaken. God hasn't locked anyone up. God has opened the door!  So God does a miracle in that at the very same time He has locked up all He has unlocked all. So in effect God neither locks nor unlocks. God does nothing because both cancel each other out.

So, please, take your scissors and cut out Romans 11:32 because it does not agree with your theology. What God shuts no man can open. Man is not free to become unlocked from God's prison. Man must wait for the Redeemer.

So why is it so hard for people to believe God will save all? Because they can't until God gives it to them to believe.

[Molly]

Psalm 50:11
I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.



God created man [eth adam] in his own image.  Man [eth adam] is both male and female.

27So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them. [Gen 1]


God gave man dominion over the beasts of the field and every living thing.


...and have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and over every living creature that moves upon the earth. [Gen 1]


In the creation of man, nowhere is it said that the man created in God's image is a beast.  Nowhere do we see this in the first two books of Genesis.   Our Adam of Genesis 2 is placed in the garden of God and called [al Adam] god-Man.

How then could we go from Adam's original status as god-Man to slavery?  And, I use the term slavery very loosely because if you are being controlled in any way, against your will or without your knowledge,  you are a slave of someone else.

This could only happen if one group of men convinced a larger group of men that they are beasts.  The smaller group could justify this slavery because God has given man dominion over beasts.  If a man is made to think of himself as a beast, as inferior to other men, then he will believe that those other men have dominion over him.  This is found in the psychology of men.

And this was the murder of god-Man in the garden.  Did God really say... thou hath dominion?


The serpent convinced Eve to take death and slavery over life and freedom.  He convinced her that she was not truly free unless she could choose death and enslavement.  In fact, she could always choose death.  The tree was there.  But, the commandment of God was to choose life.  The other choice makes man a beast.

Modern man doesn't even know that he is enslaved as a beast of the field, because his prison is in his own mind, put there by years of indoctrination starting in childhood.    But the apostle Paul knew the truth.

19 I am free. I don't belong to anyone. [1 Cor 9]



He was set free by our Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus.  Blinded by light, he could finally see the truth.

[WhiteWings]

What God shuts no man can open. Man is not free to become unlocked from God's prison. Man must wait for the Redeemer.

Is it that black and white?
A door can be:

a] Closed and locked. => No way to get out of prison if God forces you to stay inside.
b] Closed but unlocked.
c] Open.
d] Open and prisoner is actively dragged out. => No way to stay in prison if God start dragging you out.

I'll try to explain with an example.
Assume the understanding of the Bible is your key to unlock the door of the prison.

a] You have no Bible. So you have no key. -> no way to exit
b] You have a Bible but refuse (stubborn) to read comic books. -> view of many people -> no way to exit
c] You have a Bible and study it. Your are on the treshhold of the door and God gave you a choice of staying in prison or not.
d] You have a Bible you studied and are so deeply touched by it you are set free by it. -> no way to stay inside.

[Tony N]

What God shuts no man can open. Man is not free to become unlocked from God's prison. Man must wait for the Redeemer.

Is it that black and white?
A door can be:

O.K. WhiteWings, like the Burger King commercial: "Have it your way." Israel does not need to wait for their Redeemer to arrive out of Zion. God was wrong. I need to throw out my Bible. I will await yours.

This obviously was wrong:

Rom 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."
Rom 11:26 And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."

[bobf]

I'll try to explain with an example.
Assume the understanding of the Bible is your key to unlock the door of the prison.

What happens if we assume that some people could not believe the testimony of God because God binded them?

• John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[Molly]

What God shuts no man can open. Man is not free to become unlocked from God's prison. Man must wait for the Redeemer.

Is it that black and white?
A door can be:

O.K. WhiteWings, like the Burger King commercial: "Have it your way." Israel does not need to wait for their Redeemer to arrive out of Zion. God was wrong. I need to throw out my Bible. I will await yours.

This obviously was wrong:

Rom 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."
Rom 11:26 And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

--Acts 2

[bobf]

41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. [/i]

• Acts 13:48 ....and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
• John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
• John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.