Author Topic: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?  (Read 46714 times)

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DeeDee

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Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« on: November 17, 2008, 03:38:48 PM »
I was sitting a few minutes ago and thinking about this. Why is it really so hard for people to believe that oneday we will all be reunited with our Maker? I have always seen God as a Father figure. I have always had very open conversations with him. God is in fact the Father of all. The way I see it is so simple. We are all born into this world as little tiny defenseless babies. I don't believe any new born baby is evil, so no one is born evil. Circumstances, "demons" etc. are what happens to people to make them turn into "evil" beings, but even then I believe that everyone has good in them still, even when it is buried deep down inside them. Sure there are people in this world that have done horrendous, unthinkable things, but aren't they still God's creation? Are'nt they still children of God? It is true that NO ONE has an excuse to sin continously. NO ONE has the right to murder another. Even those people that take sadistic pleasure out of torturing others are still God's children. The difference is that they have turned away from our loving Father, they have given into sins and demons and unrightousness. Many have hardened hearts, but they are still Gods children. Jesus died so that all will oneday be reunited with God. We all have sin and we are all going to pay for it. Jesus did die for the sins of the world - so that all will be reunited with God - NOT so that all can go on sinning and not pay for it. All will have to pay for what we have done and not repented for, but in the end All will be with our loving Father. We get cleansed from all our evils, whether they be very sadistic or not so sadistic (in our eyes that is). Whether our 'cleansing' will be one day or a thousand years only God knows. I do believe that each will get judged and punished / cleansed according to his/her actions so each persons cleansing time will differeniate from anothers. God is always fair and He meant it - We Reap What We Sow. The important thing is that in the end every single one of His children will truly be born again - cleansed as white as snow. We will all become those little babies born innocent into this world and innocent in the eyes of our loving Father.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2008, 03:51:40 PM »
Why can't people believe the good news?

Because God keeps it hid from them:

Mat 11:25 At that season, answering, Jesus said, "I am acclaiming Thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for Thou hidest these things from the wise and intelligent and Thou dost reveal them to minors."

Because the god of this eon works with God to keep it hid from them too:

2Co 4:3 Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing,
2Co 4:4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2008, 08:18:18 PM »
Because there are some very evil people in this world that people want to make sure are punished. To think you will sit next to Hitler or Ted Bundy in the Kingdom of God one day, really is not a thing people want to see. Essentially, the desire for vengence and unforgivness prevent a person from seeing all men go to heaven, even if it is eventually.

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2008, 08:19:38 PM »
Quote
Because God keeps it hid from them:

Partially correct. The reason God keeps it hid from them, is because they rejected it first, and so God gave them over to a depraved mind.

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2008, 08:40:51 PM »
Quote
Because God keeps it hid from them:

Partially correct. The reason God keeps it hid from them, is because they rejected it first, and so God gave them over to a depraved mind.
Yeah, it's very often both.  Matthew 13:13-15 says that the parables were given because they were so thick headed.  Imagery will often get through to people that otherwise with just talking plainly to them, they'd never be reached.

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2008, 08:46:51 PM »
I just dislike when I hear people state, "God made them not believe." or "God made them not understand." etc. if this was true, we believe in a very cruel God. That is why I know that if God is hiding it from someone's eyes, it is because they don't want to believe it in the first place. Just like Pharoah, everyone thinks God hardened Pharoah's heart first, but in fact Pharoah hardened his heart first and God then hardened it more.

Romans 1:18-21, 28
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.  For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 08:50:58 PM by SOtW »

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2008, 08:52:25 PM »
Because there are some very evil people in this world that people want to make sure are punished. To think you will sit next to Hitler or Ted Bundy in the Kingdom of God one day, really is not a thing people want to see. Essentially, the desire for vengence and unforgivness prevent a person from seeing all men go to heaven, even if it is eventually.

I suppose I could go along with that as long as people like Heinrich Himmler and Roland Freisler burn in Hell for a few aeons.

But truth be told, I would rather they just be wiped out.

It's not a desire for vengence, but for justice.

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2008, 09:00:38 PM »
Yeah, Craig, you've got the order of the events down.  I've experienced the opposite effect, where I softened my heart over something and God's the One that made me all weak-knee'd and teary-eyed and total mush in a situation.  St. Paul refered to it as being humbled by God in 2Corinthians 12:14-21 and probably in one other passage as well, to the same Church, but I'm trying to get out of here to get some fresh air.  You have to think through the passage for a minute, and any related passages.  He already had a tender heart towards them, but he fully expected the Holy Spirit to make a basketcase out of him in front of them.  Otherwise, people decide to harden their hearts because they'll listen to their fears rather than to God, so God says for them to just stay that way so they can see what the end of that road looks like that they're on.  Pharaoh was offended by being bossed around by the God of slaves, so God stuck His finger in his eye and brazenly told him to stay that way for a while.  "You don't want the truth, so experience the full force of the lie!"  If that don't keep you on your knees before Him, not much will. :cloud9:
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 09:02:53 PM by martincisneros »

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2008, 09:01:18 PM »
Yes, vengeance is the desire for eye for an eye justice. Both annialationist and ET, are types of vengeance.

Vengeance: Infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge: But have you the right to vengeance?

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2008, 09:03:41 PM »
Yes, vengeance is the desire for eye for an eye justice. Both annialationist and ET, are types of vengeance.

Vengeance: Infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge: But have you the right to vengeance?
The evil is so unspeakable, so without depth or boundary, so completely dark,  that it literally makes my hair stand on end.

Go study about those men.

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2008, 09:04:55 PM »
But truth be told, I would rather they just be wiped out.

It's not a desire for vengence, but for justice.
And you believe that this is more just than God's justice, because.........????

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2008, 09:07:28 PM »
The evil is so unspeakable, so without depth or boundary, so completely dark,  that it literally makes my hair stand on end.

Go study about those men.
No thanks, I'd rather study about the finished work of Christ that ransoms all men in the climax of the ages after they've learned their sowing/reaping lessons and their utter dependence upon God for anything.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2008, 09:07:50 PM »
But truth be told, I would rather they just be wiped out.

It's not a desire for vengence, but for justice.
And you believe that this is more just than God's justice, because.........????
well, I trust God's justice.  Whatever he does will be fine by me.

I'm just stating my personal preference.

I can't deal with this kind of evil.

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2008, 09:21:56 PM »
well, I trust God's justice.  Whatever he does will be fine by me.

I'm just stating my personal preference.

I can't deal with this kind of evil.
I understand.  I'm all in favor of an eternal barbecue for half if not most people sometimes.  But it's very evident that God loves stupid people because He made so many of them! :icon_jokercolor:

But I believe He knew what He was getting Himself into before He got Himself into all of this mess.  And I believe that the end goal that He has in mind will justify all of His ways.

When Scripture speaks a different message to the eternal barbecue that I'd relish, I have to defer to the authority of Scripture and command my emotions to come in line with His Word.  If not for the grace of God, perhaps I'd be in the very eternal barbecue that in my weaker moments I've wished were true for others.

It gets a whole lot easier after a while, after you've seen more and more and more of His goodness, plan, wisdom, process, love, strength, and power.  Just cast all of your cares upon Him, according to 1Peter 5:6-7 and He'll exalt you over all of those feelings towards the monsters of iniquity that you've been aware of.  Look to Him for a new baptism with the Holy Spirit and deliberately say from time to time that you receive the Love of God.  He'll love them all through you more than you thought could ever happen through you.  John 17 says that the love that Father loves Jesus with is inside of you.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 09:24:31 PM by martincisneros »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2008, 09:35:19 PM »
Quote
Because God keeps it hid from them:

Partially correct. The reason God keeps it hid from them, is because they rejected it first, and so God gave them over to a depraved mind.

Quote
MartinC replied: Yeah, it's very often both.  Matthew 13:13-15 says that the parables were given because they were so thick headed.  Imagery will often get through to people that otherwise with just talking plainly to them, they'd never be reached.

Dear Sotw, Jesus never said: I thank thee Father, Lord of heaven and earth that because these people rejected the truth that you keep it hid from them but reveal it to minors because they receive the truth. That does not make sense.

Dear Martin, we need to look behind the curtain. Why did Jesus talk to them in parables? In Isaiah's day God already blinded Israel, the deafening of Israel and the hardening of Israel's heart. Jesus spoke to them in parables to make sure they were remaining in what God started in Isaiah's day. He said so Himself. Paul, in Acts, spoke of this too that they were blinded due to what God did in Isaiah's day.

Only those who are set for eonian life believe:
Act 13:48 Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."

It doesn't say: God set them for life eonian because they believed. It says they were set for eonian life and due to this they believe. Likewise the Israelites who were set for eonian life are the ones who believe too. Not the other way around. God opens the eyes, ears and hearts of only those who are chosen beforehand . . . not because they choose God first.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2008, 09:43:31 PM »
Quote
God opens the eyes, ears and hearts of only those who are chosen beforehand . . . not because they choose God first.

It is clear to me, you are not listening to what both Martin and myself are saying. Nowhere did we say that they choose God first, please refrain from adding presumption of what I said to any rebuttal to me. Only address what is said. Thanks.

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2008, 09:53:37 PM »
Only those who are set for eonian life believe:
Act 13:48 Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian."


Thank you.  I've never seen that verse before.


Question:  would that mean that most Christians are not believers, since few are chosen?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 10:17:41 PM by Molly »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2008, 10:21:49 PM »
Quote
God opens the eyes, ears and hearts of only those who are chosen beforehand . . . not because they choose God first.

It is clear to me, you are not listening to what both Martin and myself are saying. Nowhere did we say that they choose God first, please refrain from adding presumption of what I said to any rebuttal to me. Only address what is said. Thanks.

You did write this, did you not?
Quote
from: SOtW on Today at 01:19:38 PM
Partially correct. The reason God keeps it hid from them, is because they rejected it first, and so God gave them over to a depraved mind.

In response to what I said here:
Quote
Because God keeps it hid from them:

I know you did not say they choose God first. I said you and Martin were basically saying they did not choose first and so based upon that, God blinded them. That is in effect what you are saying. For you to say: "they rejected it first" and so God keeps it hid from them is basically saying what I said you were saying.

Here's another verse to chew on, friend:

Rom 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all."

That word "stubbornness" is also "unpersuadableness." They cannot be persuaded. Why? Not because "they rejected it first" as you say. God locked them up in unpersuadableness in Isaiah's day. They could not unlock themselves unless you believe they are more powerful than God.

Also, dear brother Martin, the parables were not given in order to get through the people's thickness. The parables had to be explained by the Teacher (Jesus). The disciples could not understand the parables unless He told them what they meant. They were meant to hide the truth. How many people today understand the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus?

Mat 13:13 Therefore in parables am I speaking to them, seeing that, observing, they are not observing, and hearing, they are not hearing, neither are they understanding."
Mat 13:14 And filled up in them is the prophecy of Isaiah, that is saying, '"In hearing, you will be hearing, and may by no means be understanding, And observing, you will be observing, and may by no means be perceiving."

Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2008, 10:22:55 PM »
Hi Tony,

In the ministry of Jesus, no one came to Him unless the Holy Spirit drew them.  Under the New Covenant, no one comes to Him unless the Blood draws them, according to Ephesians 2:13.  The Blood is what's drawing us, and I personally believe that the Blood is drawing us at all times.  Our choices affect how we receive the ministry of Jesus' High Priestly ministry that's drawing us, whether we're experiencing it as the remission of our sin, according to Ephesians 1:7, or whether we're experiencing it as judgment with the world and being guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ according to 1Corinthians 11 and Hebrews 10.  Romans 9 through 11 and Hebrews 10 through 13 illustrates to me that whether we receive the drawing of Christ's Blood upon our lives as kindness or as severity is based upon what we do, whether we receive or sell the birthright, etc.

Hebrews 6 does illustrate for me a hardened spiritual condition that one can enter into through their own works and decisions to where the Blood won't draw them any more, but they'll be subject to eonian fire.  With Acts 13:48, and the instance of Israel as a nation, you're getting into the difference between God's Sovereignty where nations are concerned with regards to how much exertion there is on the part of the Blood of Christ, and the difference between the Great Commission which is to each individual with the commandment to repent and believe the Gospel according to Acts 17, Acts 20 and other passages. 

God's Sovereignty in Scripture is expressed with regards to where families live, according to Acts 17, where politics is concerned, according to Romans 13, and with regards to nations, according to Daniel 4.  But the individual part of the equation and one's self motivating power with regards to responding to the ministry of reconciliation never seem to be taken away from individuals, otherwise why would Peter have preached to them on the Day of Pentecost for them to save themselves from this wicked generation?  Why would Romans 10 have said, that if you, not your nation, but if you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead, and if you confess His Lordship, calling upon Him from a heart that has heard the glad tidings, then you will be saved?  Otherwise why would we be told to pursue good works, and that those that aren't fruitful shouldn't eat? 

If those things were a simple matter exclusively of God at work within us to will and to do for His good pleasure, then why would St. Paul have devoted between 25% and 50% of his epistles to telling us to get off our blessed assurance, get over it, and go and do something that'll feed some mouths and relieve the afflicted??  We're told to not be conformed to this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our mind, rather than being told "here's where all of these godly thoughts are miraculously coming into your head from!  It's a little scary as God's rebooting your brain and taking over your consciousness without your participation, but it's all for the best..."

Free will, not expressed as self determination, but as self motivation in response to the call of the Gospel is never set aside by a single page of the New Testament.

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2008, 10:36:52 PM »
Rom 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all."
Contextually this verse is talking about God's dealings with Israel as a nation, not about individuals.  Chapter 11 goes on to say that for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, which again is talking about all of His dealings with Israel.  Both can be used as references to His care of all nations, but it doesn't relate to His workings with individuals which are based upon the commandment to repent, faith or disobedience to the Gospel presented, and blessings and judgments that follow our response to the Gospel.  Colossians 1 says that we become rooted and grounded when we're established in the truth of His reconciling all things to Himself through the Blood of His Cross.  In that chapter there's what God is ultimately doing and the fact that it does us good when we yield to it, even if like the Prodigal Son we're running home to fill our empty bellies at first rather than out of concern for our heavenly Father.  His goodness brings us to repentance, not His Sovereign rejection for the eons.  For unregretted are the graces and the calling of God, according to Romans 11:29.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2008, 11:39:15 PM »

Martin, do not divorce Romans 9 and 10 from 11.
"God locks up all in stubbornness that He should be merciful to all." Whether it is individual or national it doesn't matter. They cannot come to God, they cannot be persuaded as to the truth if God does not unlock them. It is not a matter of God waiting patiently while they decide if they want to be unlocked or not. They believe when they are unlocked by God.

Jesus Himself said that God hides these things from people. It doesn't say God hides them if they decide to want to come under the hardening, blinding of Isaiah enacted hundreds of years earlier.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him"

The above verse does not say: Anyone can come to Me if they, of their free will, choose it to be so.

Free will deifies man and relegates God to a lesser god than man.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline studier

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2008, 12:23:33 AM »
Tony N, don't divorce ROMANS 1 which states the reason is because they first rejected what was made so obvious and plain to them. God chose man, man rejected God, God shut all men in disobedience so he could have mercy over them all.

Quote from: Tony N
Free will deifies man and relegates God to a lesser god than man.

A irrelevant statement since it has nothing to substantiate it. You keep associating free-will with self-determination. Why not actually read and listen to what others are saying instead of creating such non-sense. This was already addressed by Martin.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 12:54:10 AM by SOtW »

Offline willieH

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2008, 01:19:31 AM »
Because there are some very evil people in this world that people want to make sure are punished. To think you will sit next to Hitler or Ted Bundy in the Kingdom of God one day, really is not a thing people want to see. Essentially, the desire for vengence and unforgivness prevent a person from seeing all men go to heaven, even if it is eventually.

I suppose I could go along with that as long as people like Heinrich Himmler and Roland Freisler burn in Hell for a few aeons.

BURN in HELL for a few AEONS?  You should be ashamed of such JUDGMENTAL and UNJUST words...   :sigh:

YOU are a forgiven sinner, but wish these sinners to be BURNED or be WIPED OUT?   :sigh:

Quote
But truth be told, I would rather they just be wiped out.

It's not a desire for vengence, but for justice.

This thinking is NOT VENGENT?   :omg:

"A few AEONS in HELL", is not VENGENT?  :mshock: 

"WIPED OUT", is not VENGENT?   :mshock:

This is YOUR version of JUSTICE: 

GOD should treat YOU and your sins =   :love4: :Peck: 
GOD should threat THEM and their sins =   :talkangry: :spank:

LOVE'S TRUE Justice:

GODS JUSTICE is GRACE (which btw, ...was used to forgive you of YOUR sins):

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the OFFENSE of ONE, [judgment came] upon ALL MEN [including YOU, and I, and Himmler, and Friesler] to CONDEMNATION; even so by the RIGHTEOUSNESS of ONE [the free gift came] upon ALL MEN unto ...JUSTIFICATION... of Life...

The SAME JUSTIFICATION is for ALL which were under the CONDEMNATION...

Rom 5:20 ...moreover the Law entered that the offense might abound.  But WHERE SIN ABOUNDED   [in YOU, and I, and Himmler, and Friesler!!], ...GRACE... did MUCH MORE ABOUND! [in YOU, and I, and Himmler, and Friesler!!]

Thank GOD, ...that HE is IN CHARGE of what JUSTICE ...IS and ...IS NOT:ok:

peacE...
willieH    :handshake:
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 01:25:58 AM by willieH »

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2008, 01:30:04 AM »

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the OFFENSE of ONE, [judgment came] upon ALL MEN [including YOU, and I, and Himmler, and Friesler] to CONDEMNATION; even so by the RIGHTEOUSNESS of ONE [the free gift came] upon ALL MEN unto ...JUSTIFICATION... of Life...


Fine.  You can bunk with them--unmitigated and unrepentant evil--be my guest.

I'm booking a room somewhere else.

Luckily there are many mansions.

I've put in my reservation:  Deliver me from evil..
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 01:32:35 AM by Molly »

martincisneros

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Re: Why is it so hard for some to believe ALL go to Heaven oneday?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2008, 01:30:15 AM »
You call this JUSTICE: 

GOD should treat YOU and your sins =   :love4: :Peck: 

GOD should threat THEM and their sins =   :talkangry: :spank:
:laugh2: This was my one good, hard belly laugh of the day!  Not a laugh at Molly, but just in general that all of us have felt this way at least once, or "are destined to at least once."  It's just human nature, and perhaps self preservation and the desire to be left alone for a while since if God's cleaning their clock they might theoretically be leaving us alone during that time period. :mrflo: