Author Topic: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?  (Read 2929 times)

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Offline Tony N

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Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« on: October 26, 2008, 03:15:05 PM »
This question was asked the other day and am wondering what you folks think about it?

My question- to Christians believing that belief, or faith, is the only way to receive salvation- is as follows:

Why should belief or faith be used to determine who goes to Heaven?

I would like the answer to address the justification in judgment being based off of something that does not display free will if possible
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 06:06:32 PM »
Romans 2:14-16  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Doesn't that verse show that we are not only judged by faith?

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 10:56:18 PM »
Many who don't post at these boards would say that it comes down to the Scriptural doctrine of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit, i.e., the new birth or being a new creation in Christ depending on your preferred nomenclature.  In this view it's a matter of there having been an actual moment when the redemptive merits and benefits of the Cross of Christ and of His Resurrection were applied to the individual's life.  This view goes on to say that it's not enough for it to be a matter of accomplished history.  It's not efficacious if it's not embraced by the individual.  Scriptures cited along these lines are the repentance Scriptures of Acts 2:38-40, Acts 17:30-31, Acts 20:20-21, Romans 10:9-10, 2Corinthians 5:19-20, 2Corinthians 7:1, 1Timothy 2:5-6, 1Peter 1:17, 1John 1:5-10, Revelation 3:20, Revelation 7:13-17, and Revelation 22:17 as a small sampling of passages that indicate that a step of faith towards the Redeemer of all of Creation is a necessary part of the redemptive process by which our sins are washed away by His Blood according to Romans 5:9, Ephesians 1:7-10, Colossians 1:15-20, and 1Peter 1:17-19. Faith and faith's corresponding actions are one in the Scriptures. There's no conflict between any of the authors of the New Testament's writings along those lines.

judy

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2008, 04:21:50 PM »
Ephesians 2:8

"For by Grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

I think many, perhaps, think it is their faith, or what they are doing (like what Martin said) that is saving them, but this clearly states that it is a gift from God. His gift is to all mankind. That is not our free will, it is His gift.

Grace, peace, and His love in abundance to all.

judy

Offline rosered

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2008, 05:12:26 PM »


  Hi all , good words ,
  I like the story in John 9  about the  man born Blind from birth 
 and  they asks  who sinned that he was in that condition   and the Lord said  neither  but for the Glory of God , showing the works of God , and Jesus went on to explain it Is the Work of God He was doing  , not us doing anything 
 but I am sure it made believers after  :thumbsup: hee hee ....
  I saw  this  as literal when  new in   Gods Word 
 and  some how I see it different now 
 more of the  man [any of us ] being blind spiritually  and not able to See the Lord and His works 

  there  are several  examples   , hope someone else  will be able to show it more clearly 
  God bless .....rose
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Doc

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2008, 09:40:21 PM »
(Slightly off topic): It's amazing to me what belief in ET/ES and/or its side/ after-effects will do to a person's soteriology.It causes one to add all sorts of things to what is needed for salvation.
Just this last Sunday, our pastor boldly proclaimed from the pulpit that if you don't understand biblical submission, you're not saved...  :thumbdown:

Where is that in the scripture, I ask?  :mshock:
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2008, 09:43:49 PM »
I think he means (trying) to live by the rules from the Bible. Submit yourself to teh laws of God.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2008, 10:27:40 PM »
Just this last Sunday, our pastor boldly proclaimed from the pulpit that if you don't understand biblical submission, you're not saved... 
I fully agree with the statement (100%), but my question would be what kind of religious baggage that the pastor would add to that -- whether you're not really giving in a way that God will count unless you're giving to the Church, or if you're backslidden from Christ if you're not in Church 2 to 4+ times every single week, or is sex in marriage only for having kids as some major Christian groups are dogmatic upon, is contraception [in marriage] sin, etc., etc., etc., etc.

Offline Doc

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2008, 11:18:03 PM »
Just this last Sunday, our pastor boldly proclaimed from the pulpit that if you don't understand biblical submission, you're not saved... 
I fully agree with the statement (100%), but my question would be what kind of religious baggage that the pastor would add to that -- whether you're not really giving in a way that God will count unless you're giving to the Church, or if you're backslidden from Christ if you're not in Church 2 to 4+ times every single week, or is sex in marriage only for having kids as some major Christian groups are dogmatic upon, is contraception [in marriage] sin, etc., etc., etc., etc.

He didn't specify, which is what bothered me.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline jabcat

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2008, 08:24:02 AM »
It's my understanding that even our faith to believe is a gift from God...now why God requires it, if He's the One that gives it, is another question....Ephesians 2:8  for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift (YLT)

martincisneros

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2008, 08:35:50 AM »
...now why God requires it, if He's the One that gives it, is another question...
If I say the one or two words that are the reason why, that seem to have become the new "f" word(s) around here, then you know who will pounce. :tease:

Teasing aside, there's a difference between the gift of faith and the faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God that's activated by fr taking a diligent, noncompromised stand on the Word that's rooted in a quality decision.  One's a fruit of the recreated spirit which some deny around here by imposing Romans 3:23 on the new man and the other is an operation of the High Priestly ministry of Jesus through the Holy Spirit, His Blood, and the commanded Blessing.  Smith Wigglesworth used to say "I stretch my faith as far as it'll go KNOWING that the Holy Ghost has 9 manifestations of His own to tie to the end of it and finish it if mine isn't enough!"

Offline jabcat

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2008, 08:57:37 AM »
:sweat:  STEP BACK!  MOVE AWAY FROM THOSE WORDS!    :pointlaugh:

I dug a little more...I thought there was another reference, but couldn't think of it...Romans 12:3 " ... God has allotted to each a measure of faith."  Without going down that road again :BangHead: :Shoot: :hammerhead: :punish: :spank: :bdh: :Oops: :offtopic: :eeew: :hijacked: :robinhood: :eek:     :laughing7:, then it seems God expects us (and I believe enables us) to exercise it.  Another way He grows us in Him, IMO.

Our God is good.  Just a little more proof He gives us exactly what He knows we need.:bowing:

 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 09:21:00 AM by jabcat »

martincisneros

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2008, 09:20:35 AM »
Otherwise, we wind up being the one talent person that buried their talent and as J. Preston Eby has so ably pointed out, winds up getting tossed in the Lake of Fire over it 'cause their place is assigned with the unbeliever.  On a certain level, doesn't bother me at all if people want to deny the unmentionable that we can't get into without another inquisition getting started, but if they carry that extremity sincerely and without hypocrisy into normal daily life, then I'm going to have their talent added to mine and I'm more than happy to receive it. :Sparkletooth: 

Lord Jesus is more than willing to take it by fighting against some with the Sword of His mouth through the prophetic gifts, as I believe that the book of Revelation bares out.  And I'm more than willing to receive it because of the nations that I'm after.  He said that if I was willing and obedient, then I'd eat the good of the land, and I've got a massive appetite.  I'm eating in fatness and praising the Name of the Lord my God that has dealt wonderously with me and I shall never be ashamed (Proverbs 11:25; Joel 2:26).

I was studying Psalm 112 with my spiritual father earlier and comparing notes on the lifestyle of the rich and righteous and I saw something I'd never seen before.  Compare Psalm 112:10 with Micah 7:19.  If it doesn't click right away, then compare Psalm 112, verses 7-10 with Micah 7:19.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2008, 09:23:09 AM »
I'll look at that, thanks!

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2008, 09:43:29 AM »
(Slightly off topic):
Just this last Sunday, our pastor boldly proclaimed from the pulpit that if you don't understand biblical submission, you're not saved...  :thumbdown:

Where is that in the scripture, I ask?  :mshock:
I hope the submission to which he refers is not the heirarchies of religious bureaucracy, that of men over other men.  This practice in the heavenlies releases the same in the earthly, the carnal perversions of men over other men.  Jesus suffered and died to bring us into direct intimacy with God.  Now, other men are inserted between us and Him...and they expect us to pay them for it!  True servants of God connect us to our Head, which is Christ, and secure and enlarge that connection.  They raise up a many-membered body for Christ, not themselves.  All Jesus is and does is in us individually and is to be developed corporately.  Our maturity is only a matter of availability to Him.  I don't care how knowlegdeable or gifted the man on stage is, he's not the body of Christ; and, JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!


And...Jesus didn't come to give us a better place in death, but to make us victorious over death.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 09:45:19 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2008, 10:15:46 AM »
I'm believing the shroud of Turin is the real thing.

http://www.shroudforum.com/

There are too many amazing scientific facts connected with this piece of cloth.

Two random people (not scientists) proved that the carbon dating was wrong; this later confirmed by the scientific community who had written off the shroud as not old enough.  They had cut their sample from a piece that had been repaired in the 16th century, discovered by two believers who knew nothing about carbon dating or the history of textiles.

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;

There is real blood on the shroud, and components of blood that would be found after trauma.

The blood is in the right places for crucifixion, including on the forehead from a crown of thorns.

No one can figure out how the image was produced on the cloth.

But, I realized one other amazing thing, looking at the picture--it is not a picture of a young man of 33.  In fact, it more resembles the description of the ancient of days--is this why nobody recognized the resurrected Christ until he spoke to them?


13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;


--Rev 1




 I watched till thrones were put in place,
      And the Ancient of Days was seated;
      His garment was white as snow,
      And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
--Daniel 7




moss92g

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2008, 05:09:40 AM »
This question was asked the other day and am wondering what you folks think about it?

My question- to Christians believing that belief, or faith, is the only way to receive salvation- is as follows:

Why should belief or faith be used to determine who goes to Heaven?



Simply because Faith is non-meritorious.  Faith is a transitive verb, and it requires an object to complete its meaning.

There are 3 systems of perception:

Faith
Rationalism
Empericism.

Faith is the only non-meritorious system.  God is perfect, and his plan is perfect.  If God allows imperfect man to have merrit in his plan, then his plan would not be perfect.  Therefore; he has made it such that man can only come to him through faith.

When man places faith in God, then God get's all of the Glory.  When man depends on rationalism, and empericism, then man gets the glory.

BTW, he is actively demonstrating the emptiness of man's Rationalism, and Empericism.

Terry


Offline Tony N

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2008, 06:03:13 PM »
Very interesting, Terry.

Could you give some examples in the Scriptures where an object satisfies the transitive verb "faith" for the viewing audience?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

moss92g

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2008, 12:23:38 AM »
Very interesting, Terry.

Could you give some examples in the Scriptures where an object satisfies the transitive verb "faith" for the viewing audience?

Its a matter of grammar, not scripture.  Of course scripture depends on grammatical constructs......  :)

Its not that complicated...  If I say I have faith, then that's not enough on its own to mean anything.  Its the object of the verb that completes the meaning...

If I have faith in Christ to save me, then where does the merritt lie?  In Christ...  If I say I believe in God's word as to how the universe was created, or who created, then where does the merritt lie?  In God's word of course....

If I say I believe in mans ability to create rational explanations for the origin of the universe, and the origin of life, then where does the merritt lie?  In man's rational ability.....

As far as Scripture goes, I think this is a critical passage:

1CO 1:19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside."
1CO 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?1CO 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.1CO 1:22 For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom;
1CO 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness,
1CO 1:24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1CO 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

This verse pretty much sums it up as well:

PRO 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And do not lean on your own understanding.

I hope that helps the viewing audience... :)

Terry
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 12:25:49 AM by moss92g »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2008, 12:55:32 AM »
 :popout: :gthumbsup:  Good answer...

alihaymeg

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2008, 03:39:59 AM »
Rock on! :Urock:

Offline Doc

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2008, 09:37:35 PM »
(Slightly off topic):
Just this last Sunday, our pastor boldly proclaimed from the pulpit that if you don't understand biblical submission, you're not saved...  :thumbdown:

Where is that in the scripture, I ask?  :mshock:
I hope the submission to which he refers is not the heirarchies of religious bureaucracy, that of men over other men.  This practice in the heavenlies releases the same in the earthly, the carnal perversions of men over other men.  Jesus suffered and died to bring us into direct intimacy with God.  Now, other men are inserted between us and Him...and they expect us to pay them for it!  True servants of God connect us to our Head, which is Christ, and secure and enlarge that connection.  They raise up a many-membered body for Christ, not themselves.  All Jesus is and does is in us individually and is to be developed corporately.  Our maturity is only a matter of availability to Him.  I don't care how knowlegdeable or gifted the man on stage is, he's not the body of Christ; and, JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!


And...Jesus didn't come to give us a better place in death, but to make us victorious over death.

Martin sort of addressed this in another thread.
The problem is, the statement was correct as far as it went, but the pastor didn't elaborate or explain his meaning of this statement, so I was at a bit of a loss to really know what he was referring to, precisely.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Brian

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2008, 11:13:54 PM »
(Slightly off topic): It's amazing to me what belief in ET/ES and/or its side/ after-effects will do to a person's soteriology.It causes one to add all sorts of things to what is needed for salvation.
Just this last Sunday, our pastor boldly proclaimed from the pulpit that if you don't understand biblical submission, you're not saved...  :thumbdown:

Where is that in the scripture, I ask?  :mshock:

I think he might mean having the born again experience. Becoming a new creature in Christ. Dying to yourself. Taking up your cross. All that comes of being born again of the Spirit. Someone who's not born again wouldn't fully understand the concept.

What denomination?

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline Doc

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Re: Why is faith used to determine who goes to heaven?
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2008, 11:17:34 PM »
(Slightly off topic): It's amazing to me what belief in ET/ES and/or its side/ after-effects will do to a person's soteriology.It causes one to add all sorts of things to what is needed for salvation.
Just this last Sunday, our pastor boldly proclaimed from the pulpit that if you don't understand biblical submission, you're not saved...  :thumbdown:

Where is that in the scripture, I ask?  :mshock:

I think he might mean having the born again experience. Becoming a new creature in Christ. Dying to yourself. Taking up your cross. All that comes of being born again of the Spirit. Someone who's not born again wouldn't fully understand the concept.

What denomination?



Baptist, with a heavy Mennonite influence.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur